Hi Pook075 ,
Thanks for the book suggestion. I heard the Audible version sample just now. But I already have a position on this. I agree that those "pickup artists" do some form of manipulation, but that is just to "maximize" their results. The manipulation part is not intended to bring you a fulfilling relationship anyway.
The truth is that if one keeps picking up girls and never compromises into a relationship, this is a strong indication that they have their own psychological barrier that prevents them from having a deep connection. They can't allow themselves to be vulnerable.
The only situation in which perfecting the art of picking up girls would be healthy is if the pickup artist himself is in an open or polyamorous relationship, in which this is perfectly acceptable. Then, instead of manipulating the girls, he would invite them into his relationship.
Anyway, I think the concepts about how to attract girls and how to keep them attracted are still valid, even for the married guys. It's true that very often women leave guys that are excellent providers or cheat on them for no reason. And it makes sense that this happens because their husbands dropped the polarity and allowed themselves to be seen as low-value men. Similarly, a woman will be considered a high-value wife if, instead of accepting whatever she gets, she challenges her husband's perception of success, thus encouraging him to keep putting in effort in his desired accomplishments.
And I think the downsides of being passive in the relationship are intimately related to the downsides of being an enabler in a BPD relationship.
In another post you mentioned that things were going good with your wife at home until she drank your juice. When you questioned her, she exploded with anger. And I remember thinking to myself, "Your wife is home and things are good for the first time in months. Why question her over juice boundaries? It's the simplest compromise- she's happy and you go buy more juice once you run out."
In other words, this shouldn't have been "a condition" of being present. She was thirsty.
I'm sorry, but you got this wrong. Here in this board, we tend to post the bad stuff, not the good stuff, but I have many good times with my wife. It would be sick to be in a relationship if it were all bad. When we lived together, we would kiss and hug deeply almost every day. She would be very easily vulnerable with me, and I would always share my ideas with her as my best friend. Apart from her anger and the conflict-seeking part of her disorder, we do get along very well with each other.
The issue we had has nothing to do with the juice bottle itself, much less about her being thirsty. She just took that opportunity to paint herself as a victim and create conflict. For instance, her mother is very short on resources and super controlling of them, always using the terms "my house," "my kitchen," etc., and my wife does not like that wording at all but does not lash out at her either.
I think the entire concept of avoiding triggering your partner is naive and doesn't work. They will always figure out ways of getting triggered (unconsciously purposeful).
With BPD, there's almost never a full recovery. There is no "remissive state."
Remission of symptoms means that the number of BPD symptoms their therapist finds on them, based on DSM criteria, is less than 5. You know it happens a lot. It means the mental illness is technically not there anymore.
BPDs can get a better handle on their emotions and learn to take a moment before losing it, but the mental illness is still there ...
I think you are assuming that they have a thin skin, poor resilience, and can't adapt to the world. Like a kid in the body of an adult. I disagree with this model. I think they force themselves into a childish mentality, while in reality they are not so immature.
... and a successful relationship is still going to come back to mutual love, understanding, etc.
Well, that's the basics of all relationships, isn't it? Mutual love and understanding. Supposedly, they have always had it from their partner.
Here's the thing- as long as you view this as "her affecting you", it's a lost battle. She's sick, she's suffering, and her emotions are all over the place.
I disagree. You must see yourself as a separate individual that has your own feelings, needs, and desires. If you don't see their actions as something that affects you, then you're enmeshed and will just go drowning deep with them. Your mental health will drop like theirs. Unless you make a clear notice of how her outbursts are affecting you.
When you showed love and compassion, things were instantly better. When you showed ironclad boundaries over something that doesn't matter at all (juice), things instantly fell apart.
Can you see what I'm saying here? You can have ego or your wife. But you probably can't have both.
Hey, you are looking at it upside down. I was not angry when I brought up the subject, and I didn't show "ironclad boundaries" to her. Also, she was the one defending her ego, not me. Instead, I was just trying to talk it out and reach a consensus. I was completely open to hearing her motives and even to being convinced that I was wrong.
Actually, we had already talked about the juice bottles in the past, multiple times, until we got into an agreement. She was opening all the bottles she could see, so the agreement was that I would store them out of her sight. Indeed, they were in the back of a closet in the kitchen along with many other empty bottles, and it even had a lock on it. But she crouched and searched within this closet because she saw the lock open (after all, she was not living with me anymore, so I relaxed).
Since it was a resolved issue, I naively assumed she could have forgotten about our agreement. But now I think she did remember it, and this is exactly why she went in the opposite direction. Unconsciously, she wanted to provoke me a bit, just enough so that she could have an excuse to lash out at me again.
This is quite similar to what she did in the past with her father to make him angry. Such as when she would get home past the agreed time on purpose. Part of this is because this is when he paid more attention to her. This is a "schema" that can be unwound in therapy.
I don't care much about the bottle of juice. It is her screaming that is unbearable. I gave up on the argument and moved away from her, but she just kept getting louder and louder by herself.
Your suggestion in regard to the juice bottle was to give in to their demands, right? Is this what you usually did with your ex-BPD wife? I'm assuming you are a very receptive person and have always had the benevolent qualities that you show here on this board. Considering that your relationship is over, do you consider that your approach was successful or that it failed?
Now you don't seem to agree with the concept of "being conditionally present in the relationship", but I think this is exactly what you do with the BPDs in your life. Because you told me that if they spiral out of control, you end the visit and resume it the next day. Isn't that a conditional presence?
