My wife has BPD and/or Complex PTSD

[SingaporeHusband]

 

Hello everyone.  I'm in my early 60s, with two daughters, 24 and 17, and live in Singapore as an expat. The 17-year-old lives with us and is in grade 11.  I have been married for 27 years and our relationship has long been tumultuous, starting even before we got married.  We share many of the same interests -- enjoying travel, the arts, food -- which has made for a great life together. But it has also been a life punctuated by blow-ups associated with my wife's relationships with other people, often me but other times one of our daughters, my wife's sister or brother-in-law, someone in my family, my daughter's boyfriend, a co-worker, or others. As such she has few friends (one best friend in another country who she sees only once every few years) and poor relationships with most people (including her estranged sister, with whom she had a huge falling out a few years ago). She is a well-educated and bright lawyer but has had difficulties holding down a job due to difficult relationships with bosses and co-workers. In one case, her company thought highly enough of her to ask her to see (and pay for) a counsellor. She was fired from two other jobs before deciding to become a stay-at-home mother when our older daughter was a toddler.  She has not had a paid job since but instead (and with a full time live-in helper to do most household things) has pursued a succession of passion projects, including real estate investments, where she bought rental properties and then neglected them, art investments, where she bought a large number of paintings by young artists in Asia and then neglected their care, and most recently religion (she attends services and bible study groups at two different churches locally), and humanitarian aid, where she has essentially become a free-lance non-profit in Thailand, dispensing medicine, equipment and money to displaced persons from Myanmar living in Thailand.  Altogether an Interesting Person, but with significant interpersonal issues, including with me and our daughters. 

We have had couples counselling over the years and each of us individual counselling too.  That has been somewhat helpful but has not prevented blow ups.  Visits home to see family have been particular triggers, with jetlag exacerbating dysregulated behaviour.

My wife has had an ill-defined fatigue issue for over twenty years, which means that (episodically) she will stay in bed for days at a time. She attributes this to pre-diabetes but yet she finds energy when she needs to travel to Thailand and pursue other passion projects. But the fatigue has been a longstanding excuse for her not to do other more mundane things, including tending to "ex" passion projects like our rental properties and our art collection, and supporting our teenager's needs. 

Starting in 2018, I started to get fed up. Fed up with the blow-ups, including a DRAMATIC one during Christmas 2018 with my wife's sister while we were visiting her family in Australia, which included things like my wife threatening to call the police alleging that her sister had kidnapped our kids and a nasty one with my older daughter during Christmas 2019, the details of which I don't even remember.  Fed up with my wife not trying to address her fatigue issues, and at the same time using it as an excuse for staying in bed a lot and not pulling her weight around the house, at the same time as finding energy to do the things she wants to do. I tried to reengage her in couples therapy, unsuccessfully. I continued therapy myself, and came to the conclusion with the therapist that I needed to change things up to get her to focus on the seriousness of our relationship issues, so I asked for a same roof separation while we worked through a couple's therapeutic process.  She refused to engage and further withdrew.  Things got steadily worse after the separation, and we find ourselves where we are now, three years later, trying to negotiate a divorce, where my wife accepts that the relationship is over (and has a new relationship, which has become her new passion project) but is unwilling to work with me to decouple in an orderly fashion. Discussions about living arrangements for our daughter and other aspects of the inevitable divorce have become acrimonious. It feels like we are in a death spiral. I've hired a lawyer and I've urged her to do the same so some of the more emotive issues can be addressed more dispassionately, but she seems much more interested to fight.

Why have a joined this group?  In the course of couples therapy a couple of years ago, the therapist diagnosed my wife as having ASD. My wife kind of loves the diagnosis, using it often as an excuse for making insensitive comments. And ASD does explain relationship difficulties she has had in the workplace and elsewhere. But ASD does not seem to explain the frequent blow-ups and dysregulation. My wife's sister, who is a family doctor, believes my wife has BPD and this tracks for me. Our (now former) couples therapist feels C-PTSD is a better label but had not completed a formal diagnosis.

Whatever the label, my wife is getting more and more difficult to deal with, including in relation to the divorce.  Over new years, she went on a holiday with our two daughters and our older daughter's boyfriend (BF).   Tensions mounted and BF's efforts to peace-make led him to be targeted in a blow up that has meant he does not want to deal with my wife anymore and has caused my daughter to minimize contact with my wife.  Then as in many other instances in the past, I tried to peace make and was accused of manipulating the kids and being the root of the problems with her relationship with the girls and BF. 

I've enabled my wife's behaviour over the years.  Unintentionally, when my wife says really awful things to the girls when she is dysregulated, I've been her apologist. I've said things like "Mum didn't really mean that she wishes you weren't born. She loves you very much but sometimes just can't control what she says. Don't think too much about it" when I should have said "Wow, what Mum said is not OK at all and that is not what people who love each other should ever say. That must have hurt you really deeply. Let's talk about how it made you feel."   My wife's sister thinks, and having read up on it I agree, that my wife and I have a co-dependent relationship. 

I want to try to understand the dynamics better so that I can more effectively chart a path to a divorce that isn't scorched earth. My wife at the moment seems intent on making it acrimonious and over my pleas to hand things off to lawyers has refused to do so. 

I want to extricate myself more fully from the complexities of my wife's relationship with our daughters, but at the same time leaving them with tools and resources to navigate them effectively themselves. 

And I'd like to figure out if there is room for a functional and caring relationship with my wife in future, after the divorce. I'd like that and have told my daughters that I am trying to lay the foundations for it. However, our 30-year Jekyll & Hyde relationship is mostly now only Hyde. She abruptly has a new and very serious relationship, the latest reason for her to neglect our kid. She idealizes him and I am more than ever the root of all things that are wrong with her life and in the world.

[Pook075]

Hello and welcome to the family!  I'm a Philippines husband and currently living there, so I can relate to that part of your story.  My American BPD ex-wife allows me to relate to everything else and it's a big reason why I'm on the opposite side of the world.

One thing that jumped out to me immediately is your wife's "illness" that keeps her in bed for days at a time.  My ex did exactly the same thing and it was labeled as chronic depression.  We can dress it up and blame it on all sorts of things, but at the root it is mental illness and genuine struggling.

Why do the pet projects get her out of bed?  It's exciting, it's new, it's fun and adventurous.  Plus, it's a great way to run from your problems....just go do something else instead.  All of this aligns to my experiences as well almost exactly.

I noticed that you posted in the "Conflicted" board, even though you're openly in divorce talks.  If you could overcome the negative aspects of the marriage and get a portion of what you had 20+ years ago, would you still leave?  I'm asking because it's possible....although super hard for both of you to get there.

Please tell us about some of the deciding factors (from your perspective) on what it would take to stay or go.

[CC43]

Hi there,

What jumps out at me in your post is your wife's blow-ups during holiday get-togethers.  That right there has BPD written all over it.  I've noticed on these boards that holidays, family reunions and other joyous occasions such as weddings are typically the backdrop for major BPD meltdowns.  I think it's because stress and unmet expectations are huge triggers for pwBPD.  I also think that it's extremely difficult for a pwBPD to be happy for other people, when they are not happy themselves.  Seeing other happy people induces feelings of jealousy, alienation, inferiority, being slighted, not being the center of attention, whatever.  Cue the meltdown.

Another clue is the that your wife spends inordinate time in bed, and yet she can "pull herself together" when she wants to, especially for fun trips.  My adult BPD stepdaughter will do the exact same thing.  Does she complain of aches and pains whenever there's work to do, but she's magically cured whenever there's an opportunity do something fun later in the day?  Classic.  One thing I notice with BPD is over-sensitivity to minor ailments and very little distress tolerance.  Minor things like waking up in the morning appear to be major ordeals for pwBPD, EXCEPT when there's something they want to do.  Then getting out of bed is a non-issue.  I suspect that when they have nothing better to think about, they retreat in a negative thinking loop (I'm so TIRED, life is so HARD, my body HURTS, I can't DO this, I don't WANT to, it's UNFAIR, etc.).  And then the pernicious BPD twisted thinking takes over (my family is toxic, I'm traumatized, life is hopeless, I have no future, I can't take this anymore).  Ergo, they stay in bed, and it's actually fun, because they have phones to entertain them, and they get out of working.  The grand irony is that pwBPD RESENT their family for making them feel so dependent.  They hate you while holding out their hand for more money/support.  To me, that is 100% BPD.  Sure, a physical ailment can make somebody irritable, moody, perhaps unable to take on some responsibilities.  But hating and blaming people who go above and beyond to help?  That sounds like BPD to me.

The other clue to BPD in my opinion is an unstable identity.  Now I might be reading too much into your post, but I've noticed that "trying out" new identies has been a feature of the pwBPD in my life.  One month she announces she's an artist.  Another month she'll change her looks (e.g. dying her hair and buying new styles of clothes).  Another month she wants to pursue a new career.  Of course, all these things are normal, but it's just that with BPD, I think the "idea" of a new identity is more attractive than the implementation.  She'll glorify the positive aspects while underestimating the work behind it.  The second she starts the work, she realizes her vision isn't what it's cracked up to be.  She tends to quit as soon as she encounters an obstacle, and she tends to be devastated because she can't achieve the idealized identity she envisioned for herself, and then she gets depressed because she can't figure out who she is.  This is hard to explain, but my point is, she seems to have a lot of identity confusion.  She's full of aspirational intentions (some narcissistic and others "delusional"), but fails on the execution, seemingly over and over again.  Does that ring any bells?  That has been a feature of the pwBPD in my life.

Look, BPD is treatable, provided that your spouse is committed to therapy and wants to make hard changes to feel better.  But since it appears your wife has had a lifetime of untreated BPD, I'm not sure if she's well-placed to learn better social-emotional  skills.  And she probably "likes" alternative diagnoses, as they are excuses to maintain the status quo.  She's probably content enough with her situation, which obviates the need to get therapy.  On these boards you might see that pwBPD typically need to "hit bottom" before they decide to get professional help and take therapy seriously.

I guess the summary is that if your wife isn't ready to change, the only person who can change is you.  On these boards you'll find all sorts of tips, which start with self-care and boundaries.

All the best to you.

[CC43]

P.S.

Since you posted on the "conflicted" board, it appeared that you are considering whether or not to try to make the relationship work.  However if you're committed to separating, I'd offer some advice, based on experiences in my family trying to "negotiate" with a spouse with a personality disorder.  In short, my advice is, you have to expect non-cooperation.  If your spouse was unreasonable and unhelpful in the past, divorce will only make things worse.  "Normal" people can negotiate in good faith, and while they'll try to get a good deal, I think they generally fulfill their obligations once an agreement has been reached.  In addition, for "normal" people, I think it's realistic to reach some sort of agreement in a timely manner, because both parties want to move on.  But with BPD or NPD in the mix, I think it's unlikely that the spouse will agree to anything reasonable, let alone negotiate in good faith.  I bet you've heard a million excuses as to why your spouse won't help with housework, won't pay bills, won't play fair, won't do anything she doesn't want to do, right?  And if you force her to do something she doesn't want to do, she punishes you dearly, correct?  I bet you've experienced a million unfulfilled promises and been blamed for it, too.  In a divorce scenario, I think the best bet is that she'll only get worse.

A real-life example of a divorce decree in my family involves the marital home (the principal marital asset), which was supposed to be sold, and the home equity split between the parties.  The disordered spouse (who had been living alone in the marital home during the pendancy of divorce negotiations over five years) has refused to move out his belongings and prepare the home for sale for a year after the decree.  Please note that it took five years to have the courts decide the terms, rather than settle before going to court, as is the case in "normal" separations!  Now we're in the spring market, and he still hasn't prepared the home for sale, i.e. moving out his belongings to the apartment where he has been staying since the divorce decree.  Furthermore, the cost of getting the courts to enforce the terms of the settlement is high, in addition to extremely slow.  Another example is paying child support.  Since the disordered spouse is unemployed (of course), there are no wages to garnish, and he is perpetually months late in paying child support.  He has a million excuses, such as losing his bank information, not understanding how to transfer money online, losing his password, forgetting what day it is, not being told what the amount is, etc.  That's what I mean by expecting non-compliance.  Any terms of separation need to assume non-cooperation from your spouse.  Does that make sense?

[ForeverDad]

After a half century of living as she has been living, your attempts - and some counseling attempts - in the past having failed, - it is probably unlikely your spouse will work toward improving her mental health.  It could happen but you can't rely on that outcome.

If you should choose to divorce, it will be mostly about financial and property issues, mostly assets and debts/loans.  Of course your spouse will try to sabotage and make it far more complicated than necessary.

If she hasn't worked in recent years, she may claim poverty and want you to pay her lawyers' bills.  What seems to work best for most of us is that each spouse's lawyer bills are paid from what is left after the finances are split.  What is the difference?  If you agree to pay her bills, she would feel there no limit to what her lawyers can bill.  However, if she knows her lawyer will be paid from what she receives at the end of the divorce, she may realize she is paying them, they would be taking from her money, what she gets from the divorce.  She wouldn't mind spending your money, but if it's her money...

Since your youngest daughter is nearly an adult, any custody and parenting issues ought to be quite short term.  The remaining concern might be how support is structured during the college years.  For example, what if you agree to pay her housing during university but she chooses to live with her mother?

Do you have concerns for your daughters?  Since they've grown up in a somewhat dysfunctional home, do they truly know deep inside what normalcy really is, are they prepared for life and choosing healthy relationships?  I ask because the examples at home were of an unpredictable parent and an appeasing parent.  There is a risk that they may feel - unconsciously - inclined to respond to someone like their mother's example or someone like their father's example.

If there is a divorce, how would they react?  Would they side with mother, father, or be able to discern what was unhealthy/dysfunctional?  If they haven't had counseling, that would be something highly recommended for them.  Their mother hasn't responded much over the years, but there ought to be hope for the children.

[SingaporeHusband]

Oh my goodness. I am not very good at using this platform and I had almost resigned myself to the idea that no one would respond.  I looked again and looked more carefully and saw all of your responses and have burst into tears.

I don’t know where to begin even.

I have come to the reluctant conclusion that a divorce is necessary and that we are not going to make it through a collaborative process to implement the divorce.  I’ve been trying for two years to get things on a better footing - initially to preserve  the marriage and then to try to achieve a amicable divorce- and every time I think I’ve made a breakthrough with her, she does or says something that is incendiary. 

My family lawyers are urging me to apply for divorce. The only grounds available to me that don’t involve being legally separated for four years is “unreasonable behavior”, and the court filing would need to chronicle all of the bat_____ crazy things that my wife has done over the last few years.

My priority is to deliver my teenage daughter into living environment where she can expect stability on a day-to-day basis so that she can focus on school and friends.  We have engaged my daughter’s therapist in a process where she would make a recommendation as to what the living arrangements ideally would be. My wife has dangled in front of me the idea that she’s going to move in with her boyfriend or move to Thailand for her philanthropic work, but then pivots back and say says no no no my daughter needs me with her. Which is self evidently not true at least not on a day and day out basis right now, as much as my daughter loves her mom enormously. 

And my immediate problem is that an important set of exams are two short weeks away, and I would love to come up with a short-term arrangement that would assure her a calm environment. i’m taking her on a short holiday during the exam prep. So things will be fine for those four days.  But there is the rest of the time.  I’m thinking that if I can’t get my wife to agree to something else, then I’ll remove myself from the situation and stay at a nearby hotel,  taking my daughter aside and explaining that I’ll never be far away. 

Does anybody have any perspectives to share about this? And then on the long-term project of coming up with a living arrangement over the 14 months left before my daughter graduates from high school, is it a wasted effort trying to get my wife to buy into a plan that my daughter’s therapist is working on?  In which case do I just need to plough forward with legal proceedings and leave my 17-year-old to advocate for herself as things unfold.

I have tried in the past to get a family therapist involved who could help mediate, possibly liaising with my wife’s therapist, but my wife has really shown Little interest in working with her therapist or involving a family therapist. I have urged my wife to hire lawyers who then could interface with my lawyers and  :help:remove some of the acrimony from our own interactions, but she seems reluctant to give up control to lawyers. 

Things are a mess. I’m sure I’m close to losing my job. I’m only barely holding things together for my daughter. I’m racking up legal fees that will quickly deplete my hard earned retirement nest egg.  And I could end up in contentious divorce proceedings on two continents. 

I will read your messages more carefully later when I am at my screen rather than using my mobile phone, and provide comments to some of your specific comics and questions.  But in the meantime would be happy to hear from any of you, if you have ideas on any of the above or just to tell me that things might end up OK in the end.

[Pook075]

I have come to the reluctant conclusion that a divorce is necessary and that we are not going to make it through a collaborative process to implement the divorce.  I’ve been trying for two years to get things on a better footing - initially to preserve  the marriage and then to try to achieve a amicable divorce- and every time I think I’ve made a breakthrough with her, she does or says something that is incendiary. 

My family lawyers are urging me to apply for divorce. The only grounds available to me that don’t involve being legally separated for four years is “unreasonable behavior”, and the court filing would need to chronicle all of the bat_____ crazy things that my wife has done over the last few years.

Lawyers practice law, and they don't get paid unless you're a client.  So I'd advise to do what you feel is in your best interest and not necessarily what attorneys are saying.  No one here will know Singapore law enough to give you practical advice, but it sounds like "unreasonable behavior" is going to be a very messy path to take.

Note that I'm not saying, "Don't get divorced" here.  I'm simply pointing out that going that route doesn't sound like a peaceful one.  If separating for four years is a reasonable reason for divorce, then why not just separate and see what happens?  Or maybe you can't under the legal visa circumstances...I don't know.

Does anybody have any perspectives to share about this? And then on the long-term project of coming up with a living arrangement over the 14 months left before my daughter graduates from high school, is it a wasted effort trying to get my wife to buy into a plan that my daughter’s therapist is working on?  In which case do I just need to plough forward with legal proceedings and leave my 17-year-old to advocate for herself as things unfold.

My divorce to my BDP ex-wife wasn't typical here, because there was no scorched earth and we really didn't fight about anything.  We split things 50/50 and anything she wanted from the home, I told her to take it.  And I took that stance because my main focus was our young adult daughters...I wasn't going to argue over "stuff" or "money" when that wasn't the most important thing.  My ex and I are still on good speaking terms because I was able to go that route.

My advice would be to talk to your wife about what she wants long-term, and what's best for the four of you.  If she has a boyfriend she's thinking about living with, or she wants to go overseas for projects, then where does that leave you and the kids?  I would talk it out and see if you can find a happy medium where you're both getting what you want and the kids know mom and dad loves them.

Again, my path wasn't typical...but I promise it was/is the best possible path by far.  Try talking things out and stepping away with grace.  If that fails, okay, then you consider the legal advice and the long battle it will create.  I don't think you have to start there though and your wife may surprise you.

I hope that helps!

[ForeverDad]

In the USA the family courts generally ignore incidents older than 6 months as legally stale or too old to litigate.  Apparently the policy reflects the view that if it was that serious then it would have been brought to the court's attention long before.

However, perhaps there in your country they do have the concept that a pattern of poor behavior is actionable despite the passage of time.  Have you documented the conflict and that you're not the one doing the aggressive behavior?

Your daughter will be 18 within a year, have the lawyers said that is when custody/parenting orders would end or would they continue until she completes school.

In general we encourage our members to avoid the impression of exiting and leaving the minor children behind.  While you would  be away only briefly, don't give your spouse the impression you're abandoning your daughter.  She's welcome to spend time with you even if you're in temporary lodging.

[zachira]

Your daughter is old enough that the judge may ask her what kind of custody arrangement she would like. She is also old enough to apply to be emancipated in some legal jurisdictions. She may also be appointed a guardian ad litem who will advocate for her in the custody dispute. I am not sure if it would be appropriate or not for you to ask her what her preferences are for custody, though surely she has feelings about how she spends time with each parent.

[Notwendy]

My priority is to deliver my teenage daughter into living environment where she can expect stability on a day-to-day basis so that she can focus on school and friends.  We have engaged my daughter’s therapist in a process where she would make a recommendation as to what the living arrangements ideally would be. My wife has dangled in front of me the idea that she’s going to move in with her boyfriend or move to Thailand for her philanthropic work, but then pivots back and say says no no no my daughter needs me with her. Which is self evidently not true at least not on a day and day out basis right now, as much as my daughter loves her mom enormously. 

Does anybody have any perspectives to share about this? And then on the long-term project of coming up with a living arrangement over the 14 months left before my daughter graduates from high school, is it a wasted effort trying to get my wife to buy into a plan that my daughter’s therapist is working on?  In which case do I just need to plough forward with legal proceedings and leave my 17-year-old to advocate for herself as things unfold.

Maybe I can add some perspective on this from the standpoint of a daughter. At 17, I didn't understand the whole of what was going on with my BPD mother until much later but I knew something was different and that her behavior, at times, was not appropriate.  A focus of the family was "normalizing" her. It was important to her to appear as if she was a good and loving mother but her behavior was obviously different from other mothers. My father also would tell me "she really loves you"- I think perhaps he thought it would make me feel better, but she was also at times, emotionally and verbally abusive. This was very confusing - "love" and verbal/emotional abuse at the same time. In actuality, love to BPD mother was more about her emotional needs. You know yourself that when you told your daughter that her mother loved her, it wasn't entirely authentic. While I don't suggest you say derogatory things to her about her mother, I think honesty, validating your daughter's perspective, would be more valuable to your D.

From the physical standpoint, I could be left alone with her at 17, and we kids were home alone with her at times then. I was not physically abused, and we kids had what we needed. I could do household tasks- cooking, laundry. I was very self sufficient in these ways. But home alone with BPD mother was not emotionally safe. She tended to pull it together when others were around but alone, where nobody else could see, was not emotionally safe. You know that your wife's BPD affects other relationships besides yours and BPD does affect all relationships, including that with your children.

It may appear that your D can fend for herself. Children in this situation tend to be "parentified"- mature for their years. That can be good in some ways but emotionally - what they need is to feel emotionally safe. From my perspective, your D needs her father to protect her emotional safety and to not leave her to fend for herself- whatever you decide to do with your marriage.

I would not wait or expect your wife to go along with any plan according to your D's therapist. Your wife may say your D needs her- because, it's a horrible thought to a mother to think their children don't need her. However, to have her D with her may be more about her own needs than your D's. You will have to decide what is in your D's best interest, and also ask your D as well. At 17, she has a voice in this too.

[CC43]

Hi there,

As for your daughter, at 17 she probably has a big say in her living arrangements.  If you maintain residences that are geographically close to each other after separation, it's conceivable that your daughter could go back and forth between residences at will.  I can tell you that in my family, when I married my husband and moved into a new house with him, his three near-adult adult children (in their late teens) immediately moved in with us, practically full-time, even though technically, his ex-wife had joint custody.  The irony was that my husband had to pay "child support" throughout the college years to his ex, even though the kids were living with us whenever they weren't in college (which happened to be a long time, as two of his daughters withdrew from college multiple times).  I'm just saying that kids that age can vote with their feet, pretty much no matter what custody arrangements are made.

I'd also say that probably no matter how disordered your wife is, your daughter most likely still wants to have a close relationship with her mom, and she probably doesn't want to hear anything negative about her from you, either.  I think it's important that exes don't disparage one another, for the benefit of the child.

My guess is that if your wife is really disordered, your daughter will probably want to spend a lot of time with you.  It might be a relief for her, to have a quiter, non-chaotic home without so many arguments and the passive-aggressive, negative vibe.

It would be another issue altogether if your wife moved to another country, making visitation much more complicated for your daughter.

[Notwendy]

I'd also say that probably no matter how disordered your wife is, your daughter most likely still wants to have a close relationship with her mom,

Or possibly not, and if she doesn't want to spend a lot of time with her mother, or stay with her, please allow her to have her feelings about it.

There's shame and guilt for not "loving your mother". I wanted to have a good relationship with her but I also was afraid of her when she was dysregulated and the feelings were confusing.

Part of this was the unpredictability of her moods. Even if nothing happened and she was fine- her moods could change in a second. She might react to something I said, inadvertently, or did or didn't do- even if I had no intentions of upsetting her.

I still wanted a relationship with my mother,  but felt I needed to have my own space as well.

I had a say at 17 and it was to plan for university away from home. With the help of her therapist, your D can voice her choice too.

[ForeverDad]

I'm in the middle on how your daughter may react.  Either of the aspects presented here are possible.  Your daughter has for years lived with the "status quo", namely, stuck in the middle, not good.

On the one hand, your calm and stable influence over the years no doubt has had an influence.  On the other hand, her mother has had years to influence and manipulate her, weakening her loyalty and perspectives.

You know your daughter better than we can as remote peer support.  But still... even if you think you know, what she says and does may surprise you.  As the saying goes, "When the tires hit the road...", referring to the point at which an abstract idea or plan is tested out in practice.

[SingaporeHusband]

I'm excited to have set things up on a laptop so I can read and respond properly. 

Thank you all for your helpful comments.  I've never before had a chance to dig into any of these things with others and I have so many questions and ideas. Perhaps I can break things down a little and discuss a few discrete questions: external help, supporting and protecting the kids, navigating the divorce, and looking after myself better. 

External help

My wife has been pretty consistently averse to suggestions of getting outside help. Almost 25 years ago, I did get her to couples therapy leading up to the birth of our first child and that helped a little. But she ultimately gave it up and we ended up reengaging only when things got really dire at different junctures.  For two years I've pleaded to involve a family therapist or collaborative family lawyers and she always resists (with family therapists, we had a couple of sessions, which I thought were helpful but she thought a waste of money). I'd even welcome the involvement of her "best friend", although that could easily go sideways. I think my wife fears the loss of control involved with bringing someone in.  And worries that someone might actually diagnose her as having a personality disorder. I mentioned that one of her recent passion projects is religion and Iast night I floated the idea of involving a priest at one of the two churches she attends. She is showing some interest to do that, but I don't think that will last. 

Any suggestions on how to convince my wife to involve a third party?  I'm keeping fingers crossed that the priest idea will stick but I have little confidence. 

It bothers me that there is no diagnosis. Thinking that if there were a label, she might be motivated to get help. Worrying that maybe I am trying to pathologize behaviour that is not that bad after all. (After the horrendous 2018 blow-up with her sister, I insisted that we go to her psychiatrist to get help, but he simply commented: "Nothing abnormal here. Asian families are complicated.").  But I finally appreciate that none of this is normal, whether it is BPD, NPD, C-PTSD, or just some strange aspect of ASD.

 Supporting and protecting the kids

The two girls have different needs and different perspectives. The 17 year old is younger and "on site" with a heavy academic load, so has more immediate needs.  But she is probably finally the more resilient of the two. She loves her mother and is unlikely to try to minimise contact once her parents live separately. She will sometimes make excuses for her mum. She has expressed a preference for her mum to move to Thailand and for her to stay with me, but since her mum is now vowing to stay in town, I think our daughter will try to make a situation work where she cycles between households. But she has also said she needs routines that I can help maintain, and so I guess she may spend more time with me.

Her older sister is a bit more clear-eyed about her mum's behaviour and since a blow up at her boyfriend has maintained only limited contact, but she struggles with the loss of the mother she tried for so long to convince herself she had.

With both I feel like I ought to be sparing with both criticism of and excuses for their mum. They need to work out their relationship with their mum themselves. At the same time, I feel like our older daughter, solidly into adulthood, would benefit from support on psdfamily.com and I'm thinking that I could recommend it to her (emphasizing that her mum may not have BPD, even if some of the perspectives here may be helpful).

Thoughts on how to manage these dynamics, not either demonising their mum nor (any longer) normalising her behaviour, and give them the tools to live lives that don't involve mirroring either parent?

Navigating the divorce

I read with interest Pook075's description of his amicable divorce from his wife with BPD.  It was inspiring!  But finally it REALLY seems unlikely we will get there.  I am reflecting on what grace might look like for me.  Neither of us is materialistic but money has become a stand-in for other things. She is not even willing to table a proposal that would involve either divorce or a separation of finances on any terms now.  When I asked her for a proposal from her, she is insisting on maintaining financial integration until I retire in late 2028, when her behaviour has largely destroyed my earning power. And she has slow-rolled discussion of our daughter's living arrangements.

So it is feeling like we will end up in contested divorce proceedings -- one of only ten or so in a year in a country where most divorcing couples manage to work things out outside the court process.  My only hope is that she will finally delegate negotiations to a lawyer before I pull the trigger on a divorce application because the rules in Singapore, if applied strictly, won't benefit her. But I also worry that living arrangements even with a daughter as old as she now is won't be capable of being settled without the involvement of a court.  To some extent, my daughter can vote with her feet, but the emotional blackmail already at play is pretty intense. 

Looking after myself better

I guess pretty typically in a relationship with a PwBPD, our relationship is a co-dependent one. I feel like she "marked" me as someone who would look after her. When we met I was already well launched in my legal career (I became a partner at my law firm three years after we met) and I demonstrated a willingness to pick up the slack for her, minister when she was unwell, and help her navigate her relationships with others. (She has described me before as her seeing-eye dog, but then also describes me when dysregulated as manipulative and controlling, turning people against her).  I grew up in an alcoholic's household and as I've thought about our relationship have been forced to conclude that I must have gotten something (dysfunctional) out of looking after her and normalising the household dynamic. 

In my own therapy starting a decade or more ago, I explained to my therapist how I felt in our relationship via a distinct image.  My wife a truck careening down the highway, with the back not properly secured and stuff getting dumped all over the road as she goes, me a guy chasing behind the truck on foot, trying to clean up as much of the mess as I could as I went. 

A feature of my wife's behaviour I find very difficult to deal with is her swings between hatred and love (she, Dr Jeckyl and Mr Hyde, me suffering from emotional whiplash). I experienced that intensely this very weekend. At dinner Saturday night, I pleaded with her to work with me to find a middle ground where we could preserve strong relationships among the family and stop the financial bleeding, with her responses being embittered attacks. I was emotionally spent by the end of dinner and woke this morning feeling stress deep in my chest. She was singing, told me I had "gotten through to her", and sat with me over breakfast talking respectfully and kindly about the two girls. The break from the acrimony is welcome but I have the experience of 30 years to know this won't last.

Another that I also find hard to manage is the gas-lighting. She clings to falsehoods, with vehemence which seems to suggest that she does not seem them as false.  She will claim I did something that I did not do (or, for something I did do, assert a malicious intent that did not exist) and no amount of evidence or reasoning will allow her to adjust her perspective.  She insists I've tried to hide assets when I've only tied them up so we can both feel more confident that the other isn't doing that (and with the only person to even threaten to drain accounts being her.)   She was supposed to manage our investments as the stay-at-home spouse but didn't. When it was clear we were going to need to divorce, with her continuing to drag her feet on managing our finances, I put together an asset list so we could know what we have. I told her I would share it with her once she provided data on one investment I did not have. She said she would but months later still has not, but somehow it is me who is operating sneakily and "behind her back". All these are abstract, not concrete, issues but it is as if I'm standing in front of a tree. Anyone else can see, "yep, that's a tree", but she will deny the tree's existence. What IS that? 

I feel intense grief and guilt for allowing this to go on so long, often dragging friends and my family into spirals of dysregulation and not protecting the girls as I should.  What's wrong with me that I have let this happen? Notwendy, your post suggests there may have been physical abuse in your household growing up. Thankfully not in ours, but the emotional abuse has sometimes been acute.  Not as frequent or intense as in many families, but nonetheless there.

I was very stressed yesterday. Wasn't really able to process the series of heated discussions that had preceded the swing to Jekyll and worried that we could not with both parents in the house fulfil a promise to our daughter to keep a peaceful environment for her exam prep and I almost decided to move to a hotel nearby to reduce the chance of acrimony. But I'm still here for now.  But also trying to figure out how I can cope better, preserving the emotional energy needed to look after my daughter, keep things rolling at work, avoid a breakdown, and prepare for what could evolve into a nasty divorce.     

[Pook075]

Hi Singapore, all great questions and I'm glad you got the laptop set up.  Please keep asking the tough stuff!

Any suggestions on how to convince my wife to involve a third party?  I'm keeping fingers crossed that the priest idea will stick but I have little confidence. 

How do we convince anyone to do anything that they don't want to do?  That might sound discouraging, but if your wife is against therapy then it will be very hard to "convince" her of anything. 

A different tactic would be to talk about your own needs and ask your wife to problem solve.  Asking something like, "I feel unseen and neglected in this relationship and I can't keep doing this.  What can we do differently?"

When I told my ex wife that we needed therapy, she refused.  When I asked her what we could do a week later, she suggested therapy.  So I found a few therapists and she refused them all.  I asked her, which therapist would you like to see?  She said she'd think about it (which means it will never happen).  So I told our daughter, who my wife listens to, that there was a Christian therapist only a few miles from where my ex wife was staying.  Suggest that to your mom.  She did and it was suddenly a great idea.

My point here is that you can't fight this in conventional ways because we're talking about mental illness.  Your wife thinks differently and responds accordingly.

It bothers me that there is no diagnosis. Thinking that if there were a label, she might be motivated to get help.

Again, you're thinking about this logically how you'd feel if a physician gave you a diagnosis.  So many here hoped for the exact same thing (myself included), if we get a diagnosis, then we can fix this and live happily ever after.  That probably won't be your wife's reality though and even when diagnosed, there's a chance she rejects or ignores it.  In other cases here on this site, the diagnosed person uses it as a sword..."You know I'm crazy and it's not my fault.  You should have known better to ask me that!"

All in all, the diagnosis doesn't mean a whole lot.  It's a starting point only.

Thoughts on how to manage these dynamics, not either demonising their mum nor (any longer) normalising her behaviour, and give them the tools to live lives that don't involve mirroring either parent?

My ex wife is nor officially diagnosed either (other than chronic depression), while my oldest daughter is (BPD/bi polar).  Their behavior is identical though.  And when I talk about my ex, I tell others that she's struggling mentally and thinks differently at times due to stress and anxiety.  People accept that whether they know about BPD or not.

All these are abstract, not concrete, issues but it is as if I'm standing in front of a tree. Anyone else can see, "yep, that's a tree", but she will deny the tree's existence. What IS that? 

When arguing with a BPD, it's so easy to think about facts and defend them.  But they're thinking emotionally, not logically, and their feelings control their emotions so much more than the average person.  Your wife is thinking, "Today is horrible and I'm struggling, why can't you see that?"  Yet she says, "You never do anything for me." 

Notice it's two completely different things, because she couldn't possibly admit what she was actually feeling.  So she deflects expecting sympathy, even though she just attacked you verbally.  You don't respond with sympathy because you're not a mind-reader, and now she's thinking, "The nerve of him to talk to me that way when he knows how bad I'm hurting inside."

Can you follow this at all?  It's so critically important for BPD relationships.

When your wife says something out of the ordinary, or when she's in "one of those moods", she's speaking emotionally from mental illness.  The way through these situations is not to justify, defend, or argue, it's to ignore her words completely and focus on her emotions.  If she's panicking, calm her down.  If she's sad, cheer her up.  If she's angry, help her relax with affirming words and body language.

This might sound familiar since you did it with your kids when they were infants.  It's basically the exact same thing since all you have to go on is the emotions present.  If the baby cries, you try to make it laugh.

I feel intense grief and guilt for allowing this to go on so long, often dragging friends and my family into spirals of dysregulation and not protecting the girls as I should.  What's wrong with me that I have let this happen?

There's nothing wrong with you.  You love your wife and you want things to work out, even though you don't fully understand what's happening or what to do.  We've all been there and did the exact same thing.

On this site, we talk about our BPD loved ones often.  But as you're here for a little while, you're going to realize that this site is more about you and your mental stability while dealing with a tough relationship.  Nobody here can "fix" your wife, but we can help you learn tools that makes communication a lot less painful.  Over time, it makes a tremendous difference as you learn to "speak her language"....which is about focusing on emotions instead of logic and reason.

I hope that helps my friend!

[Notwendy]

It is possible that your wife has a different relationship with each child. The relationship is a combination of your wife and each daughter as individuals. Your daughters, at their ages, adult and almost adult, will navigate their own relationship with their mother. I think what they need from you most is to be secure that you love them, even if their relationship with her is challenging.

I think your younger D is clear about what she wants. She wants structure, routines, and a peaceful place to study with you, and still, a relationship with her mother.

My BPD mother liked to do fun things- like go to movies, museums, shows, go out to lunch. So one idea is for your D to have space with you, a place she can study, sleep, have regular meals, and some time to herself. She can then have some "fun" time with her mother together when she takes study breaks, and if she wants to stay over- that's her choice.

[CC43]

I think your younger D is clear about what she wants. She wants structure, routines, and a peaceful place to study with you, and still, a relationship with her mother.

My BPD mother liked to do fun things- like go to movies, museums, shows, go out to lunch. So one idea is for your D to have space with you, a place she can study, sleep, have regular meals, and some time to herself. She can then have some "fun" time with her mother together when she takes study breaks, and if she wants to stay over- that's her choice.

That basically describes the living arrangements and relationship that my eldest stepdaughter had with her bio parents, when she was in her late teens and early 20s.  She tended to spend more time with her dad and me at our house, which is stable and welcoming, a reliable "base camp" with a stocked fridge.  And then she'd have shorter visits with her mom, whom I don't know very well but I gather is a high-conflict, chaotic personality (I saw a picture of the inside of her home once and noted how chaotic it was).  Yet she's probably also fun--I've heard stories of loud parties, for example.  Her dad NEVER disparages his ex-wife in front of his kids and does not get in the way of them visiting with their bio mom.  In fact, for years, he facilitated visits, by driving the kids between residences when they weren't old enough to drive, typically multiple times per week.

Having said that, my younger BPD stepdaughter hasn't spoken to her bio mom for years now.  I can't be sure how much of that relates to her own BPD, her mom's high-conflict nature, or both.  The two of them are probably too volatile for each other to have a stable relationship right now.  It's sad, but it is what it is.

That's just a long-winded way of saying I agree with Notwendy's points.

[ForeverDad]

Any suggestions on how to convince my wife to involve a third party?  I'm keeping fingers crossed that the priest idea will stick but I have little confidence. 

It bothers me that there is no diagnosis. Thinking that if there were a label, she might be motivated to get help.

BPD traits include extreme levels of Blaming, Blame Shifting, Projection, self-oriented perceptions, insistence on emotional perceptions as facts and reality, etc.  Such a person's thinking is skewed away from normalcy.  It's hard to wrap our brains around that.  So you deal with "what is".

One factor you need to keep in mind is that some who might help could be oriented toward repairing or patching up the relationship.  You've been with her some three decades and she hasn't made progress toward recovery.  With her gaining sudden recovery being so unlikely, unwinding the marriage makes sense.

My only hope is that she will finally delegate negotiations to a lawyer before I pull the trigger on a divorce application because the rules in Singapore, if applied strictly, won't benefit her.

We don't know how the details of court systems work there but typically divorce is where either spouse can initiate the process and the court will act more or less as a slow and somewhat reluctant referee.  The big difference is that for once it doesn't matter how much your spouse insists on control... court is The Real Authority.

We speak here of Boundaries, but with a twist.  Since people with BPD traits (pwBPD) are known to resist boundaries, we therefore can choose to make our own boundaries, not for the other but for us, and how we respond to poor behavior.  That perspective is not intuitive but it works more or less.  Court's version of boundaries are named "orders".

In my own therapy starting a decade or more ago...

Having someone as a counselor or therapist can undoubtedly be a huge resource and support.  Your children too would benefit as well.  Have you encouraged that?  Even if your spouse might refuse to allow your minor daughter to start counseling, court may agree to step in and order therapy as one of the steps in divorce.  As my lawyer told me many years ago, "Courts love counseling."