How do you keep going when nothing is ever enough?

[Duggingen]

I'm a grandfather and father dealing with what I believe is my adult daughter's undiagnosed BPD/NPD. She's a single mother of twin 6-year-old boys with special needs who are each on three psychiatric medications with minimal oversight. Today I sent her $1,000 on top of the $4,000 I gave her at the start of March — on top of her brother providing free housing and health insurance. Within hours she told me my support was "a joke" and that I want her to "drown." She's accumulated $27,000 in debt in six months while I've been trying to help. I've lost weight, my marriage is strained, and tonight I feel used, heartbroken, and helpless. I can't cut her off because my grandchildren are in the middle of this. I can't give enough because no amount is ever enough. How do families survive this? How do you love someone who cannot see what you're doing for them and may never be able to?

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[CC43]

Hi there,

You've come to the right place.  Many parents here feel exhausted from the strain of supporting their adult children with BPD, all the while they feel blamed for the utter chaos.  I think some key features of untreated BPD are a victim attitude, entitlement, misplaced anger, volatile emotions and unstable relationships.  Another key feature is abdicating responsibility for her life.  Since your daughter probably feels constantly traumatized and victimized, she thinks that other people are the cause of all her problems, and she uses up most of her mental bandwidth blaming them, raging and acting out.  That's why I think a negative attitude and victim mindset is perhaps the worst part of BPD, because it renders her powerless over her life.  That means, she's blaming YOU, practically full time, while it seems she does nothing to improve her situation.  Does that ring true?

You ask, how do you love someone who can't appreciate what you do for them?  I think you love them when you realize that you're not to blame whatsoever for the situation . . . and you don't take her insults personally.  I think you realize that with untreated BPD, daily life feels like an unending series of traumas, and what you're seeing is a trauma-like, fight or flight response from your daughter.  I think you empathize with the plight of your daughter as a single mom with two young special-needs kids; she's under a lot of stress, and with BPD, the stress feels super-sized, and she's taking it out on her family.  I think you love her more when you realize that whatever you do isn't wholly for her, but for you.  Maybe your daughter thinks that $5,000 in assistance this last month is a joke, but you and I know that's not the case at all.  On the one hand, my guess is that your daughter has no concept of how hard somebody has to work to earn $5,000 net of taxes.  But YOU know how hard you worked, and that's what really matters.  Your daughter probably has no clue about your finances, nor what you can afford to give to someone else, but YOU do.  You understand what $5,000 can buy, and that might include food, clothes and medications for your grandkids.

Anyway, my guess is that your daughter isn't happy right now, and she's taking it out mostly on you.  I bet she's unhappy with the housing provided for free by her brother, and she doesn't really value the health insurance, because she feels entitled to it, and she's probably never had to buy it for herself.  An unfortunate reality for many BPD adult children is that, because the family system has over-functioned for her--out of love and in the name of keeping her stable--she remains relatively clueless about how the real world works.  She's not only overwhelmed by adult daily routines, such as paying bills, taking care of the home front, managing appointments, childcare and such, but she's also relatively inexperienced, and she's probably afraid of looking "stupid," lest she be "exposed" for her general lack of knowledge.  Things like filing taxes, paying medical bills, buying insurance, etc. are completely overwhelming for her.  Since others in the family have over-functioned for her in these areas, she's left feeling not only incompetent, but also dependent and powerless.  My guess is that she RESENTS you for making her feel this way, and that deep down she probably feels like a loser.  That's not a nice feeling.

As for financial boundaries, I think you have to figure out what you care to give, what you can afford to give, and what the conditions are for any assistance you provide.  You have to take care of yourself first.  You're no good to your daughter if she puts you into financial ruin, right alongside herself.  Since there are innocent grandchildren involved, I might advise giving assistance in kind, rather than cash, if you think your daughter isn't spending the money as you intended.  Maybe you buy the kids' medications directly yourself.  Maybe you have groceries sent directly to her address.  She probably won't like this if she prefers to spend all your money on non-essentials for herself, but your post was relatively short, so it's hard to advise.  You might also consider conditioning your support on your daughter getting ongoing therapy, or doing other things to get her life on track.

Look, you're right, no amount you give will ever seem to be enough to your daughter.  For as long as she is untreated for BPD, her needs will be endless.  So you have to decide how much you are willing to give, and in what form.  She is an adult, you are not obligated to give her anything at all.

One way I've come around to thinking about this is differentiating between support and enablement.  I think support is when your daughter is generally doing what she should be doing (e.g. taking care of children, getting some therapy, maybe working part-time, helping out at home, treating others with respect), and you provide assistance to lift her up.  But enablement is when your daughter is generally NOT doing what she should be doing, while you reward her with money and support, and so enable an unhealthy, unsustainable status quo.  Here I try to emphasize actions over moods and words, because I personally can take plenty of petulance and passive-aggressiveness if the pwBPD in my life is actually DOING things she's supposed to be doing.  What do you think more accurately describes your situation?

I hope that perspective helps a little.  Please feel free to share more.  I'm sure many readers here can relate.

[Mutt]

Hi Duggingen,



Welcome to BPDFamily. I’m glad you found your way here, though I’m sorry for what brought you in.

You’ll find that many members here can relate to what you’re going through. A lot of us have been in similar shoes and understand how exhausting and painful it can feel.

That feeling of “nothing is ever enough” can really wear a person down. Especially when you’re trying to help and it keeps coming back as criticism. That’s a tough place to be.

One thing many of us have had to come to terms with is that love and support don’t always land the way we hope when someone is overwhelmed or struggling. It doesn’t mean what you’re doing has no value. It just means it may not change the reaction you’re getting.

At some point, it becomes less about finding the “right amount” to give, and more about figuring out what you can give in a way that you can sustain without it costing you your health or your marriage.

You’re carrying a lot right now. You don’t have to solve it all at once.

[Pook075]

She's accumulated $27,000 in debt in six months while I've been trying to help. I've lost weight, my marriage is strained, and tonight I feel used, heartbroken, and helpless. I can't cut her off because my grandchildren are in the middle of this. I can't give enough because no amount is ever enough. How do families survive this?

Hello and welcome to the forum.  My experiences have been very similar with my BPD daughter- she'd ask for money while blaming everything bad in her life on me.  The answer I personally found was that money does not fix problems for people who are bad with money.  Like you said, it's never enough and there's always need.

I finally cut my daughter off about three years ago, and she acted like the world had ended.  For the first time ever, she was going to pay for her cell phone and car insurance...and I wondered how that was possible since she spends every penny she makes right after getting paid.  But to my surprise, she had insurance and a new cell plan within hours.

Why?  Because she had no other choice.

Around that time, something changed for me as well because I realized that her problems were not my burdens.  I couldn't fix anything in her life and as long as I was supporting her, she'd never learn finance.  My help, while coming from the right place, was being turned into enablement and manipulation for giving even more.

Mt heart breaks for you and the twin boys, but that's simply not your burden to carry.  If you're worried about them going hungry, then make sure they know that they're always welcome for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.  Maybe your daughter says no, but at least that's something you can control.

I wish you luck in whatever you decide.  It's incredibly tough regardless.

[js friend]

Hi Duggenin,

My udd loves money but has a terrible spending habit so instead of sending money which you cant be sure how it is being spent I think it may be best to get a better idea of how she is coping  is to suggest spending the day together, buying groceries and taking them over or offering practical help.

Iam also sorry that you are struggling with the weight of the worry about your 2 gs's and this financial pressure but this is your dd's debt and it is her responsibility. There is no harm   providing the help and guidance to sort this debt out if she is not facing up to it and I would be going down that route as this is a healthier option(and actually something that she can learn about for the future when it comes to budgeting) than constantly providing her with more money.

[Duggingen]

Thank you all for answering me. We had another exchange today between my daughter and myself today. She stated in her chat "I am not good at managing money, I'm not very interested in becoming good at managing money. I just want to make money and live the way I want to live" So this makes me feel that any suggestion or strategy about budgeting is for naught. She may have income coming in within the next four weeks which will not necessitate me to support her for now. It leaves me with the feeling that she will continue to live beyond her means, accumulating debt an probably in the not too distant future declare personal bankruptcy - with all its consequences because she will never understand or be mature enough to understand that it is not primarily "I need x$ to live the way I want to live" but rather "I have x$ - how do I spend them wisely"! She never could differentiate between needs and wants!

[CC43]

She never could differentiate between needs and wants!

I think you've got that right.  A pwBPD is often overpowered by emotions, as well as an unstable sense of self.  The pwBPD in my life seems to have magical thinking . . . she tends to idealize a lifestyle she thinks she wants, but seems oblivious to the economic and logistical realities of the lifestyle.  As an example, she wants a Carrie Bradshaw life, i.e. living in Manhattan, buying designer clothes, dining out all the time, partying with friends, all the while seeming to have no clue about the amount of income she'd need to earn in order to support that lifestyle, let alone how hard she'd have to work to earn it.

Furthermore, I suspect that for some pwBPD, everything feels like an urgent need.  There is no differentiation between needs and wants because everything is a need.

Maybe declaring bankruptcy wouldn't be the worst thing, if she learned financial realities.  Unfortunately, student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, but credit card debt can be.  If she declares bankruptcy, she won't have access to credit for a time, and she'll only be able to spend what she earns.

Anyway, I guess I'd advise to listen to your daughter.  She's telling you she doesn't want to budget, and she doesn't want your advice.  Basically she's saying, she's an adult and wants to make the decisions.  I'd say, agree with her, and let her face the consequences.  You could say, "You know, you're right, you're an adult and you can spend your money however you want."  Just don't give her money or bail her out.  Now, I imagine this would be a big change, because in many families with adult BPD children, the pwBPD wants to make the decisions but have parents bear any adverse consequences.  The pwBPD might have had a decade or more experience being enabled and bailed out, in the name of preventing meltdowns, or worse, suicide attempts.  And parents don't want to see their kids suffer.  But if you step in, bail them out or "help" by paying bills all the time, they don't face the consequences of their decisions, YOU do.

[Notwendy]

How do families survive this? How do you love someone who cannot see what you're doing for them and may never be able to?

I have a cautionary tale, and I agree with the others who have suggested it's time for the Bank of Dad to close.

For my now deceased BPD mother, this kind of spending was something she did for as long as I can remember. My father was the wage earner in the family. We could see he was stressed over finances as you are. Still, somehow he was able to save and plan for retirement.

After he passed away, assets went to my mother. She kept her finances secret from us kids but we knew they'd be sufficient for usual situations. However, she was spending them quickly and to the point of causing her financial damage.

We hoped to be able to reason with her, after all, the person this affected the most was herself. When we kids were not successful in getting her to understand budgeting, another relative tried but she didn't let him help her with management either.

The "not enough" seemed to be driven by emotional needs. Emotions are not rational. There's no difference between wants and needs when the need is emotional. While you may wish for your D to realize you give enough, this may not be possible. You will need to be the one to decide what "enough" is.

I understand the concern about the effect on the twins if you stop. However, as long as others supply money to your D- she won't experience the consequences of uncontrolled spending and she won't have an incentive to change her behavior if it is possible. The emotional needs may be unlimited but money in a bank account is. As long as someone is adding to it, your D won't see that limit.

Your son will also have to go along with this plan too. Understandably you wouldn't want to see them go to nothing all at once. If he's able to continue the housing and insurance for now, those are essential. The funds from you can be decreased and go to a regular payment instead of on request, with plans to decrease them over a period of time.

Consider that it may be better for your D to experience the consequences of her spending and possibly learn from that. It may take experiencing bankruptcy, being on social services like food stamps, Medicaid (in the US), and even having the children removed temporarily- to have that lesson.

You love your D, but you can also extend that love for yourself and put that money in savings for your needs.

[ForeverDad]

Can you picture a court ordering you not to send money to your daughter?  Of course, that's hypothetical.  But how would this change your life?  Wouldn't it remove the feelings of obligation and perhaps guilt from your life?

One of the problems in relationships with persons who have Borderline PD traits are factors we call BPD F.O.G. (Fear, Obligation, Guilt).  Think about that.  Haven't you been living for years with a varying degree of FOG overwhelming your life?

Can you ponder that different perspective and what that opens to you?  Some have used the phrase "Let Go and Let God".  What that means - whether you are religiously inclined, legally inclined, or not - is that we each can handle only so much in our lives before we start to suffer.  So it is okay to tell ourselves, "I have tried but this matter is currently beyond my ability to fix.  I did what I could.  It's time to shift my worries and stresses from off my shoulders onto a higher power."  Does that perspective help?

[Notwendy]

Letting go also means allowing natural consequences. Would any of us budget or go to work every day if we found an ATM machine that gives us money whenever we want it? Ideally, we would like our jobs but a main reason we go to work is to earn money for our needs. We also know that if we spend all our money before the next paycheck, there won't be any.

Your D has no incentive to change her behavior as long as money is provided for her. Nor will she be motivated to budget until she experiences the money running out too soon.

This was the situation for my BPD mother, and when my father was working, he was able to continue to supply the money to some extent. BPD mother didn't learn about money management or budgeting and she had no incentive to do so. Only after she seriously compromised her own financial resources did she begin to perceive the limits of spending.

Would it be better for your D to experience this now, when she's younger and can seek employment, or when she's elderly? I think you know the answer to this.

You matter too and you are much more to those grandchildren than money. They'd rather have a grandpa who is relaxed, not stressed and in good physical and mental health. Realistically, you are closer to retirement than your D is. It's important that you don't compromise your own needs.

[CC43]

Hi again,

I agree with the general sentiment that the Bank of Mom and Dad needs to close before the Bank of Mom and Dad goes under.

I've lived with an adult BPD stepchild, on and off, for several years.  I've noticed that in her Bizarro world, the natural monetary incentives are all mixed up.  It seemed that the worse she acted--the more tantrums, meltdowns, storming off and impulsive quitting (jobs, college, living situations), etc.--the more money and concessions she got.  In Bizarro world, it literally paid her to be dysfunctional.  Why on earth would she ever change?  She could sleep all day, rely on others to provide housing, insurance and transportation, raid the parental fridge (or order DoorDash and charge the Bank of Dad), refuse to help around the house, and meanwhile have oodles of free time to scroll social media and use marijuana.  She didn't even have to pay for her own phone, because it was supposedly cheaper to keep her on the family plan.  All she has to do to get more money is scream and hurl insults at her parents.  Maybe each successive year she has to take it up a notch and threaten to kill herself if she doesn't get the money she asks for, but she knows her parents will relent, out of Fear, Obligation and Guilt.  She could be cunning too.  For example, she could convince her parent to enroll her in college and pay for an apartment near campus.  If she withdrew early enough (within the first two weeks), she could have nearly all the tuition refunded, directly to her, and she could live on that for a few months, including going on Spring Break.  Parents might not even find out she dropped out of school until months later.  Why would she tell the truth about what she was doing?  In Bizarro world, it's easier to lie and pretend she's going to college.  With BPD thinking, her twisted logic might be that her parent OWES her for abusing her, and thus she has a right to the tuition money, to spend however she wants, and then to ask for even more money as reparations.

Now I imagine there's an element of shame with the pwBPD.  I doubt she's in complete denial about money, where it comes from and how much things cost, even if she does appear to be delusional and clueless at times, about things such as overdraft fees, credit scores and unpaid bills.  I suspect that the financial mistakes generate a lot of anxiety and shame in the pwBPD . . . which probably contribute to her inability to have a conversation about budgeting.  Since the topic makes her both anxious and shameful, she probably reacts to it in her usual ways:  with either the "flight" response--to retreat in avoidance by stonewalling or cutting off communication; or the "fight" response--denying the problem spending, accusing you of lying, accusing you of manipulating, deflecting, etc.

If you can't stand to close the Bank of Mom and Dad, then there could be a middle ground of reducing the credit exposure.  Another approach would be to provide financial assistance in kind, so that you know your money is being spent exactly how you intended.  You might impose some stipulations with continued financial support.  An example might be, you only dole out small amounts in cash in person, for example when your daughter comes to your home for dinner with the grandchildren; that way you can provide a healthy meal, encourage socialization and keep tabs on the grandkids.  I'm sure there are abundant options, and as it's your money, you get to decide how you want to spend it.  In addition, know you could decide not to give her any more money, because you have to handle your own budget.  That's OK too.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[Sancho]

Hi Duggingen
Just a few thoughts. The spending does seem to be an emotional needs in BPD and it can take it's toll on everyone concerned. Your situation I think is at crisis point and there does need to be change.

One starting point is to look at things in a very practical way - no emotions allowed for this process!

You mention DD has free accommodation etc. So . . .
can you sit down with pen and paper and work out how much DD - approx of course - would need for FIXED expenses (phone, power, water, etc ie all the bills we get regularly.
How much for food, clothing etc
Are there car expenses

In other words, try to write a generous budget that outlines her expenses.

Discretionary spending: How much would be reasonable to 'extras' eg takeaway, going somewhere etc.

Get an  idea of how much would be 'enough'.

Re bills etc
It took me a long time to stop paying outstanding debts. I hadn't thought it through really - I am just programmed to pay debts! Anyway I realised that my DD didn't own anything, so whoever wanted to take the debt on would soon realise that it was not worth it.

The next thing I realised was that clearing debts meant DD could keep getting accepted for loans. Once I stopped, the loans stopped because she had bad credit rating.

I think once you have an idea of how much is enough, think about whether or not you are able to contribute a specific amount each month. If you can, then decide whether you will use this to pay a bill for DD eg phone account or whether you would give cash.

Then comes the moment to tell DD that you are in financial trouble, you have worked out a budget for yourself and you can contribute xxx each month but that is the limit.

It can be surprising that once you stop the merry-go-round things can improve - and DD could become better at managing. Yes she has said all these things, but perhaps a challenge to 'have a full life without spending much money' could be a challenge and interesting.

Just a few thoughts . . .