Advice or experience needed on holding onto a boundary

[JsMom]

Hi, I had the difficult conversation with my swbpd 2 days ago. He reacted loudly with blaming, accusing  - it was a spiral. I handled     it best I could, trying to be empathetic and validating and didn't add fuel to the fire.   We ended with a calm conversation about stuff. Last night my son text "I'm sorry I lost my temper, I feel terrible"  I responded that I said a hard thing that hurt and you reacted.  Now, the hard work. I told my son I wouldn't be giving him anymore money. I have rescued my son paying debts into to many thousands and I've dug too deep into my small retirement nest egg. I feel bad because he works hard. But his mismanagement,  disordered thinking and over spending undermines all his efforts. Sheese, he has more "stuff" than I do.
Anyway I finally am getting my helping hasn't helped,  I'm just keeping the hamster wheel turning.
Help! How did you hold tough - knowing that your child could very easily be homeless?  My younger son shares a house with his brother. I warned my youngest son about what I needed to do and to prepare himself.  I'm sure he has friends he can stay with until he gets a place. My bpd son may not have people willing to have him stay. He can't live with us. My husband said no way. I don't want him here either. That sounds cruel but we've been through that about 5 yrs ago.  I hate mental illness. I hate what it robs from the people who suffer with it and from their families.
So, I need to say no even if.... Have you experienced your child managing when you let go? Is there hope I can hang onto besides doing this to protect myself and my marriage.?  In my heart I feel like I'm doing this for my son too so he can grow and maybe get the help he says he wants but avoids.
Thank you for being there.

Our objective is to better understand the struggles our child faces and to learn the skills to improve our relationship and provide a supportive environment and also improve on our own emotional responses, attitudes and effectiveness as a family leaders

[zachira]

Setting healthier boundaries takes practice especially with a close family member. We are never going to be perfect in setting boundaries, yet we can get better with time especially as we see that setting the healthier boundaries is a form of self care. Setting healthier boundaries can sometimes help the disordered person and many times it does not. Certainly having unhealthy boundaries with disordered people does not help them, just sends them a message that they can continue to act badly that there will always be someone to enable them. Admiring your courage and love for your son in setting the boundaries about money. You were affirmative and did your best to not add fuel to the fire, to let your adult son take responsibility for his feelings and actions.

One of the lessons I have learned recently as I continue to be a work in progress, is that the people I continually have to say no to are often disordered people. I now am working on setting the healthier boundaries sooner, distancing myself from these kind of people without giving so many second chances.

[JsMom]

Thanks Zachira,  it helps to give myself grace as I'm learning to set and hold onto boundaries.  I wish there were guarantees to him being safe as I move forward. I know that's my fantasy. It is also my hope.
I have another issue heavy on my heart. My younger non bpd son who lives with him. My younger son has spent most of his life in the fallout and drama of his older brother's actions. I try to keep most conversations about younger son and not his brother when we spend time together. I really feel maybe I need to share about bpd with him, but have been reluctant to. Any thoughts?

[Notwendy]

Help! How did you hold tough - knowing that your child could very easily be homeless? 

Your son is a grown man. He needs to care more about being homeless than you care. 

And you and your H need to protect your own financial well being, because, your son doesn't seem to be concerned about compromising you two.

With BPD mother's situation, I got an early education on elder care resources, Medicaid, Medicare,  etc. There are big gaps in elder care coverage. Some types of help are self pay and very costly. If you have not looked into these resources, what is covered and what isn't, I think it's a good idea- because I think it will emphasize why protecting your own resources is essential.

If you need support in saying no- then work with a therapist and/or CODA sponsor- they can help.

[CC43]

Hi Mom,

I wasn't aware you had a younger son.  I actually think that might help your situation.  I too have a BPD stepchild, but I also have other stepchildren.  They are affected by BPD in the family system too.

If you have a hard time holding your boundary for yourself, think of it as holding the boundary for your other son.  He deserves to have a mom who takes care of herself.  A marvelous gift you can give him is to provide for your own retirement.  Because if you spend all your money on your BPD son, my guess is that you'll continue to enable his overspending.  Since he's in his 40s (correct?), he's used to you bailing him out, and he hasn't learned to budget yet.  Maybe you could afford to bail him out when you were working, but now you're retired, and you MUST STOP.  If you don't, what will happen?  A likely scenario is that your non-BPD son will have to bail YOU out.  And you don't want to do that to him, do you?  If you don't save yourself for you, then do it for him!

I've discussed with my husband a few times how we have (over) committed our money, time and emotional energy to caretaking the BPD child.  But she's now an adult.  I've said to him, if we're not careful, his other children will resent us for potentially wasting so much of our resources on the troubled child, while "ignoring" the non-troubled children.  I've emphasized many times that the non-disordered adult children also deserve our attention.  In fact, we've gone out of our way to support them too, out of fairness.  I hope they appreciate that.  But by the same token, I think they'd be justified in feeling resentment for their sister, as well as for all the resources we devoted to her BPD.  We have given her many, many opportunities to get help, to grow up, to reduce her stress levels, to make things financially easy for her, to facilitate various living situations for her.  At some point--I'd say NOW--she's not a dependent kid anymore, and she should face the consequences of her own decisions.

Look, last summer, my BPD stepdaughter wanted a vacation and plastic surgery, instead of working and living independently.  She probably mistakenly thought that she could live with her dad and me indefinitely, without working or contributing anything, as she had as a child.  That's just not real life, and she made us miserable.  So she had to leave.  She HAS TO feel the pressure of making rent and buying her own food in order to choose to work.  Since she's under that pressure now, she's working now.  And that is a gigantic improvement, as well as a boost to her self-confidence.  But for her to get there, we needed to enforce a boundary (basically, freeloading not allowed in our house)--and she was asked to leave.  I'm sure she thinks of it as being "kicked out," but reality is that she didn't hold up her end of the bargain, and she faced the consequences.  That's the "real world."  Only in "bizarro world" are financial mismanagement and raging outbursts met with "free money," "free housing" and/or rescuing by you.  But now you need to save yourself.  My guess is that your BPD son will surprise you, if you let him fend for himself.  Let him do that, and save yourself and your non-BPD son in the process as well.

[Pook075]

Hi, I had the difficult conversation with my swbpd 2 days ago. He reacted loudly with blaming, accusing  - it was a spiral. I handled     it best I could, trying to be empathetic and validating and didn't add fuel to the fire.   We ended with a calm conversation about stuff. Last night my son text "I'm sorry I lost my temper, I feel terrible"  I responded that I said a hard thing that hurt and you reacted.  Now, the hard work. I told my son I wouldn't be giving him anymore money. I have rescued my son paying debts into to many thousands and I've dug too deep into my small retirement nest egg. I feel bad because he works hard. But his mismanagement,  disordered thinking and over spending undermines all his efforts. Sheese, he has more "stuff" than I do.
Anyway I finally am getting my helping hasn't helped,  I'm just keeping the hamster wheel turning.
Help! How did you hold tough - knowing that your child could very easily be homeless?  My younger son shares a house with his brother. I warned my youngest son about what I needed to do and to prepare himself.  I'm sure he has friends he can stay with until he gets a place. My bpd son may not have people willing to have him stay. He can't live with us. My husband said no way. I don't want him here either. That sounds cruel but we've been through that about 5 yrs ago.  I hate mental illness. I hate what it robs from the people who suffer with it and from their families.
So, I need to say no even if.... Have you experienced your child managing when you let go? Is there hope I can hang onto besides doing this to protect myself and my marriage.?  In my heart I feel like I'm doing this for my son too so he can grow and maybe get the help he says he wants but avoids.
Thank you for being there.

I went through this same scenario with my BPD daughter a few years ago.  She was furious at me, but I told her plainly that I was out of money and had no way to help anymore.

That doesn't mean my bank account was at zero so maybe some of you would say I lied.  But the simple truth was that I was taking on extra side-jobs to cover my kid's reckless spending habits...and I was still tight paying my own bills at times.  I had wiped out savings and it just wasn't going to stop regardless, so I was actually 100% truthful.  I really couldn't afford it anymore and I couldn't afford it years earlier either.

When I told my daughter, she started screaming at me over the phone.  I didn't love her, I was always so selfish, etc.  Then she hung up on me as I told her that I was cancelling her cell phone bill and car insurance.

Yet a funny thing happened.  Within the hour, she was with a new cell carrier and had insurance on her own.  She didn't tell me that, of course, but she told every other family member how terrible I was and to make sure I knew that she didn't need my money any longer.

And I thought, huh, she thinks she's teaching me a lesson.  Okay,whatever...at least she finally got it.

My point is, if I didn't cut her off that day, I'd probably still be paying her bills.  But at the same time, if I had cut her off years eaelier, I'd still have some savings and her bills probably would have been paid just the same.  It was actually my own fault for thinking that she couldn't survive without my money.

Maybe your son does lose his apartment.  But if he can't afford it, then it's better off for him to lose it.  Let him learn that lesson and figure out basic finance.  That may sound cold, but it's honestly a kindness.  My kid now has an apartment and pays all of her own bills, including a new car payment.  The long-term payoff of them growing up far outweighs some temporary anger that you receive frequently anyway.

[JsMom]

NotWendy,  CC43, and Pook075,
Each of your posts are helpful to me.  You don't sugarcoat and you speak truth from experience.  Yes, my son needs to care more about not being homeless, managing his bills and taking care of his mental health than I do. Obviously as I have cared more - he didn't have to.  I appreciate the rays of hope in some of your situations. I understand each person is different. Yes, my younger son deserves not having to worry about my later years.
My son's dad has bpd and I believe npd. My dad had bpd. I have a lifetime of ingrained ways of accepting unacceptable behavior and caretaking to feel safe. I am just lately learning about this illness and how to take care of myself around it. Your wisdom and honest feedback mean a lot. 

[CC43]

P.S.

I love Pook's comment and would add that by providing so much money to your BPD son, you might be increasing his stress level.  I saw this with my BPD stepdaughter, too.  How, you might ask?  By having so much money, they quicky set up a lifestyle that is unaffordable, unmanageable (for a pwBPD) and unsustainable.  I write "quickly," because with BPD, there's typically a dire sense of urgency, an intolerance of delayed gratification, plus strong entitlement.  Your pwBPD might buy an expensive new car with a seven-year loan payment.  But with the expensive car comes expensive insurance, plus a desire for off-street parking, plus premium gasoline, plus expensive maintenance, plus premium tires.  They're locked into a monthly payment and expenses that are beyond their budget, when reality is that taking an Uber everywhere would often be much cheaper.  In addition, they lack "practice" in car ownership, which one would usually get by starting with a beater.  And they sign an apartment lease using you as a co-signer, because on their own, they wouldn't be approved for the apartment, which is surely more luxurious than their wage allows.  Maybe they move far away, using your resources (co-signing, first and last months' rent, help moving, help setting up with new furniture, etc.), which they never would have achieved on their own.  Yet by moving far away, they're farther from their traditional support system (e.g. therapists, friends, family).  And they just have to go on vacations involving planes, while they beg you to buy the tickets, because it's a "once in a lifetime" opportunity.  Yet they spend way too much on the vacation itself--hotel, rental car, restaurant meals--charging it all to a credit card.  Why do they keep getting credit?  Because you bail them out by paying off past credit card debts.  If you didn't bail them out, then they wouldn't qualify for new credit, and if they didn't have credit, then they couldn't afford the vacation--they'd have to save up for it like a normal person on a cash-based budget.  Plus, you can't help but wonder, how are they taking so much vacation time while working?  Are they putting their job at risk?  On top of everything, they just have to have a dog, but didn't plan for the cost of vets, apartment pet premiums, kennels, etc.  They think that having a pet is a "right" and might expect parents to pay for that, too.  Don't forget that you're probably the automatic "free kennel," even if you don't want to take responsibility for his pet.

Anyway, all this means lots of extra stress for the pwBPD, because his lifestyle is not only too expensive, but also complicated--by administrative, logistical and caretaking obligations.  Sometimes I think life would be simpler if they avoided lifestyle inflation financed by well-meaning parents.  Instead, if they lived within their means, they probably wouldn't have so much stuff to take care of (car, lots of furniture, large monthly payments, pet, complicated travel), which at the end of the day is a lot less stressful.  Plus, if his living quarters are modest, staying home all day isn't very entertaining, which means he gets out into the world more.  He learns that he has to work, gradually and consistently, to get what he wants.  In the process, he bolsters his identity and learns he has agency in his life.  Eventually he can let go of the blaming and victim attitude.  Or so I'd hope.

Just my two cents.

[KBug]

I'm so sorry that you're going through all of this. It's heartbreaking. Many of us have similar stories. My 25 year old daughter wanted to move back in with us because she had burned all of her bridges and quit her job. We told her that we had 3 conditions for temporarily moving in with us (we will have a peaceful house, she will not be drunk or high when she's around us, and she will continue with mental health support) and that she could live with us longer term (more than 3 months) if she also had the equivalent of full time activity (some combo of finishing university, helping around the house, and/or work). She told us that she was not going to "kiss our @33es for a place to live." We told her that was her choice. It was hard but she became homeless. She had a car. We looked around and found a homeless shelter for people with mental health challenges. She was asked to leave in less than a week because she wouldn't get along with others. We found another shelter for her and she lived there for several months. She now lives with her grandparents and she works part time and helps them around the house.

We still don't have much contact with her. We know that she's still working on her mental health because we pay for the co-pays for her visits. The only money we will give her (and by that I mean pay the therapist or the school directly ourselves) is for mental health support and education.

She is terrified of adulting and doesn't believe in herself. She would take as much money as she could from us. However, we are limiting what we give her only to mental health and education because that's what's going to help her to become more independent.

When we were giving her money in the past (as an adult) for basic living expenses and for things she wanted, she wasn't having to do the hard work that she needed to do to become more independent. She would hang out in the garage smoking weed and drinking all day. We told her that we weren't going to financially and emotionally support her in not growing into adulthood. We told her that we love her and we will help be thought partners/problem solvers with her if she asks us. We also told her that we would pay for education and therapy to help her become more independent. However, we were not going to do things that keep her from adulting. She had previously told us that she wants to become an independent adult, so we are working to align our support to help her get there.

Of course, that's not how she sees it. From her perspective, we forced her to be homeless and we don't love her. I miss her but I'm also relieved that I'm not caught up in her storms every day. Our biggest hope is that she will find her way into being the kind of adult she wants to be, even if we're not a significant part of her life any more. We would really like to develop a new relationship with her but we're not sure that will happen.

[Notwendy]

The money spending issue is complicated and I think in part, emotionally driven, which is why it's not a rational behavior. Numbers are rational- we know exactly how much is in the bank, and if more goes out than comes in- this causes problems.

I commend you parents for holding this boundary with your adult children now, and protecting your own nest egg because, I have seen what happens when uncontrolled spending compromises funds after retirement. BPD mother's uncontrolled spending was compromising her own nest egg.

There are big gaps in coverage for elder care in the US system. Often extended family are leaned on when this happens. It is workable- when both parents and adult child can be considerate and cooperative with each other.  However, with BPD, reasoning, consideration and cooperation are not present and without boundaries, emotion driven spending can be destructive.

CC43's makes a good point - the best gift you can give your adult children is to be able to meet your financial needs after retirement. One would imagine a parent or adult child would not want to see their loved one be financially compromised, but in the case of BPD- when they want what they want, that's their focus. When my BPD mother was in this emotional state of wanting what she wanted- that was all of her focus, not anything or anyone else.

CC43 also made a good point about your younger non BPD child, who would be the one to have the emotional capacity to be concerned about you. He's another reason to protect your retirement nest egg.

Because the spending behavior is emotionally driven, rationalizing with a pwBPD about their spending may not be effective which is why boundaries are necessary.