Question about what to say

[wantmorepeace]

Hi, all. I am on a break from pwubpd, which I needed (and said I needed) for my own emotional well-being.  I will soon be going to the town where they live to help another family member and will not see them.  I know I can't handle the possibility of something going awry on this trip.  My question is, once we are in contact again (whether before I go or after I go), I think there's a good possibility I'll be asked if I went.   Should I answer or say that that's my business?    Also, if they don't ask, would it be smart for me to tell it so that there are no secrets to be found out later?

[Notwendy]

I think what you are dealing with is a common ethical dilemma. How do we respond with authenticity when people aren't "playing by the same rules?", and also how to determine a boundary on privacy and confidentiality in a family where there aren't clear boundaries.

I don't think there is one "right" answer. Each scenario involves some kind of consequence.

You don't tell her and she later finds out.
You do tell her and she reacts.
You tell her it's not her business and she reacts.


How we handle this becomes a balance of our own integrity and ability to withstand the consequences. The problem with compromising our own integrity is that it can errode our own self esteem.

For example, I could not tell my BPD mother the truth to avoid her reaction but then, I'd have compromised my own standards, but also I don't have to be completely transparent about my own privacy- I can have boundaries. How to balance it all?

I found that as I got better at managing my own enabling and co-dependent tendencies, I got better at both being authentic and holding boundaries. If I didn't want to share something, I didn't feel I had to but- I also didn't need to be untruthful either.

Sometimes a "no", or choosing to not discuss something is the hardest response as there can be a reaction. "No" is a complete sentence. What you do isn't your sister's business. Staying resolved and unrattled by the response may have to be learned.

However, in my mother's FOO, the information sharing is fast. I don't know what she told her FOO but anything they heard or found out about me or my kids would be promptly shared with her. If she heard it from them before me, she'd feel embarrassed to not be "in the loop" and assume I was hiding things on purpose . Some things I did want to keep private but sometimes it was because they got the chance to tell her before I did.

Managing her feelings was not my role but being aware of them, I tried to avoid unecessarily upsetting her. First, anything they knew would be shared with her so if something was private I didn't share it with any of them. I don't post personal information on social media but if it was so general I could share it- like a picture- I would be sure to send a copy to BPD mother first- before any posts, because they'd be downloading it and sending it to her.

If I visited any of them, it's a certainty they'd tell her so I would tell her myself. She may react but if she found out from them first, it would be a more difficult reaction.

I think one of the hardest things to tell her was when we were planning a visit to my father's family. I know she'd feel hurt that we weren't visiting her instead- that wasn't the point though- we were invited to an event on their side. We were afraid to tell her at first and afraid to say something way in advance but we did tell her before we went. She wasn't on Facebook then but all the relatives were and if anyone posted something, her FOO would tell her. That would be worse for her. We wanted to keep our privacy but didn't want to cause her distress when something wasn't private. The best way to do this was to just be open about it. Yes, she was angry at us but that would have happened anyway.

So it came down to managing our own sense of integrity. Either be honest, or  say you don't wish to discuss it or keep it private (to the extent possible- we weren't perfect at all of this). If something wasn't going to be private- then tell her. We didn't wish to cause her to feel upset so if her reaction was inevitable- choose the way that she would feel least hurt from- tell her before the relatives do.

In this scheme- if sis asks- then tell her. If you are still NC- then no need to make contact over this, stay NC. If she doesn't ask, then let her find out whenever, it's not malicious secret keeping, it's simply your choice for privacy. If she imagines a motive on your part, that's her own thinking.

[CC43]

I will soon be going to the town where they live to help another family member.

Hi Wantmorepeace,

I think it's great you're helping another family member.  That should be all that matters, at least in an ideal world.  Maybe your pwBPD gets upset that you didn't go visit with them, that you didn't take extra time to broaden the scope of your trip and cater to their needs for attention.  Well, that's on them.  Your mission was to help another family member, and that's all the mental bandwidth that you can handle right now.  Just because they live nearby doesn't mean you should change your mission, OK?

I think you don't tell your pwBPD about your plans--ever.  They are your plans, after all--you shouldn't be subject to reporting your schedule and whereabouts to pwBPD, so don't!  If they put up a fuss ("I can't believe you came to my town and didn't even bother to stop by!"), you could feign busy indifference (Oh, that last-minute trip?  I didn't want to impose.  Maybe next time.)  Then change the subject.  If they unleash a tirade about how inconsiderate you are, you exit:  "I'm in a rush, bye."  If they try to reel you in ("Oh, look at you, too busy and important to spend time with me . . ."), just let them be.  Don't JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain).  The less personal details they know, the better, if that's how they are treating you.

Just my two cents.

[Notwendy]

I agree with CC43's advice to not voluntarily share information in general. I did not share personal information with BPD mother and this also meant to not share it with anyone in her family.

Each family is different but in my situation visiting anyone on her side would go through the information network quickly. They all lived near each other.
Another difference is that I wasn't NC with BPD mother. If I visited, it was to visit her mainly. So it wasn't confidential with her.

If I was NC then not telling her would be an option.

In your situation, you plan to have some reconnection with your sister and so if that is the case, if she actually asks, it's possibly better to just tell her the truth. However, if she doesn't, I wouldn't tell her. It could feel hurtful to do so- "hey I was in town and didn't visit you". It won't spare her feelings or yours if she reacts. If she finds out and asks, say "yes it was a quick visit and I spent the whole time helping our relative" and then drop the subject.

If you stay NC, then you two won't be speaking anyway.

[Pook075]

I think you don't tell your pwBPD about your plans--ever.  They are your plans, after all--you shouldn't be subject to reporting your schedule and whereabouts to pwBPD, so don't! 

I completely agree with this statement.

If they put up a fuss ("I can't believe you came to my town and didn't even bother to stop by!"), you could feign busy indifference (Oh, that last-minute trip?  I didn't want to impose.  Maybe next time.)  Then change the subject.  If they unleash a tirade about how inconsiderate you are, you exit:  "I'm in a rush, bye."  If they try to reel you in ("Oh, look at you, too busy and important to spend time with me . . ."), just let them be.  Don't JADE (justify, argue, defend or explain).  The less personal details they know, the better, if that's how they are treating you.

I disagree here.  If they find out, when they find out...none of that matters.  And if they don't find out, then it doesn't matter either. 

The focus should be on the task at hand....and not how someone might react...if they happen to find out...and they happen to freak out...and they happen to call you angry....and they happen to demand an explanation...and they happen to say you're a bad person...and they happen to say or do 100 other things that I haven't thought of yet.

Can you see how exhausting that sentence is?  It exhausted me writing it.  Whatever happens will happen and your decision is already made.  Do not worry about what someone else MIGHT say or do...that's for them to deal with.  The focus needs to be on you and what you're in control of, what's best for your mental health, etc.

My simple advice is not to go down this rabbit hole of playing the "what if" game.  Nobody has ever won it in the history of the world.

[wantmorepeace]

Thank you all so much. Really helpful.

[CC43]

Hi again,

I can really relate to Wantmorepeace's concern about backlash from the pwBPD upon learning of the upcoming trip and visit.  My guess is that the concern exists because Wantmorepeace is on the receiving end of major backlash whenever this sort of thing happens.  I agree with Pook that you can't prevent these reactions in other people.  But I think it's normal to worry about them, because, well, it really hurts us, and it's natural to want to protect ourselves from harm.  My strategy is to "gird my loins" while staying true to my mission (values).

I can relate because my husband, who I wouldn't say has BPD but shows BPD traits from time to time, invariably becomes upset with me when I do certain things outside the home with other people.  A short visit to help a family member would typically be triggering for him, especially if I were absent around dinner time.  I've found that, no matter what I do, I can't prevent the backlash.  I've tried sharing my schedule with him in advance and reminding him in the preceding days, so as not to "spring" it on him.  I've tried minimizing my absence, for example by limiting the duration of a trip to a few hours.  I've tried catering to his needs, such as leaving him with snacks and a prepared meal.  I've tried inviting him to come along (but he never wants to).  I've tried explaining ("It's important to help family, it doesn't happen often, I'm only gone for an afternoon").   I've tried bribery:  "If you let me go, I'll cook you your favorite meal when I get back."  I've resorted to notions of fairness:  "You visited with your brother last week for two days, and I didn't complain; in fact I encouraged you.  You can let me help my sibling for one afternoon."

I think the reality is, there is absolutely nothing I can do to prevent a backlash.  He's going to have a tantrum and express his displeasure, no matter what I do.  Deep down, I think that he knows he's being unreasonable and unfair.  But the backlash always follows the same script:  I'm away for "too long."  I'm being a *hitty wife.  I didn't inform him of my plans early enough/with enough specificity; or I didn't remind him enough times, and I didn't ask for his express permission.  I left him "all alone" to "fend for himself."  I don't do anything nice for HIM.  I'm having a "social life" without him.  I'm not taking care of him.  I'm sneaking out.  I'm having an affair.  I left him with no food.  It's unacceptable that I'm AWOL 5 pm, what will he have for dinner?  Etc., etc.

OK, I'll admit that before I understood this behavior, I tried really hard to appease him, mostly by severely limiting my own social life.  But I started resenting that.  I wasn't willing to sacrifice all my friends and family relationships to prevent spousal tantrums.  And here's the other thing:  appeasement ultimately backfired.  I think it made his tantrums WORSE, because it gave him license to seek to control my every move, to micromanage a grown woman, including commentary on where I sit, when I sit and my sitting posture!  He started having tantrums when I had to travel for my job (which was infrequent, maybe three overnights per year, compared to my husband's travel rate of around three times a month).  He had tantrums if I attended evening board meetings (which are a requirement for a C-Suite executive).  It was EXHAUSTING dealing with him.  And I was frazzled, becoming somebody I could barely recognize.  For what?  To prevent tantrums?  I decided, he was going to have his tantrums no matter what I did.  So I might as well live my life.

And then I came here, not because of him, but because his daughter was diagnosed with BPD, after a few years of severe dysfunction.  Here, I learned about JADE.  Immediately a lightbulb lit--I could see that every time I defended myself ("I'm just helping my family, I told you last week, I'll be out for only three hours, I'll be back by dinnertime, what's the big deal, you see your family all the time, whenever you want, and I don't criticize you, I support you!  If you get hungry, make yourself a snack, I bought you your favorite snack yesterday . . .") it just made things worse.  If I used logic, it was adding fuel to the fire, and probably made him even madder, because he knew I was right, and he HATES me to be right, even more than he hates to be wrong, if that makes any sense.  Indeed he was a big bully, trying to get me to stay home, stay "small" and cater to his needs 100% of the time.  But I wasn't willing to do that, not anymore, not at the cost of total alienation from the world and my true self, and certainly not when it just backfires by making things worse.

What works for me?  I stay true to my "mission."  I don't intentionally try to do anything that would hurt my husband, and I think I treat him in a respectful and considerate manner.  By the same token, I'm helping my family when they need my help and I'm able to give it.  I'm having a social life, too--nothing crazy, but I deserve to see friends from time to time, because that's what healthy adults do.  I know my husband will throw a tantrum sometimes, because my having any sort of "social life without him" is upsetting to him.  My reaction?  I let him have a tantrum.  He'll typically yell and make all sorts of unreasonable accusations, but I try to stay calm.  Sometimes I point out the facts, as calmly as I can:  "It's 6 pm, I'm making you dinner now."  Or, "I choose to be with you every day."  Or, "I told you exactly where I would be, and I'm home exactly when I said I would be."  If he picks apart some tiny detail--what I'm wearing, when I informed and reminded him of my plans, how many times I texted or called him during my absence, how quickly I responded to his calls, if I walked in the door two minutes after my original ETA--I try to remind myself, it's not about the clothes, the communication rituals, the surveillance--he's mad because he felt abandoned.  And he knows it's irrational for a grown man to feel "abandoned" for a few hours.  If he doesn't calm down quickly, then I'll typically leave the scene, and retreat to another room in the house, in effect giving him an "adult time out."  He'll act huffy and give me the silent treatment, typically until the next morning.  Then, more often than not, it feels like he pretends the whole episode didn't happen.  Yes, he tries to "ruin" any outing I dare to take without him, and that is sad.  But what would be sadder is sacrificing all the other relationships in my life.  That's not healthy.  So I "gird my loins" and rely on my BPD tantrum management skills.  When he won't calm down, I give him a time out.  And in the process, I escape the torrent of yelling, false accusations and baloney.  Does that make sense?

[wantmorepeace]

Absolutely makes sense.....

[zachira]

My advice is to learn as much as you can about "flying monkeys", the ones who enable disordered people. Some flying monkeys are similar to the disordered people and others can be innocent well meaning individuals. There are many articles and videos on the internet about flying monkeys.


Every summer, I spend time in the area I grew up where the deck is loaded with flying monkeys. What has helped the most, is to improve my boundaries, especially around limiting unnecessary personal disclosures that can be somehow used to give the disordered people easier ways to continue the smear campaign.

[Notwendy]

Hi again,

I can really relate to Wantmorepeace's concern about backlash from the pwBPD upon learning of the upcoming trip and visit.  My guess is that the concern exists because Wantmorepeace is on the receiving end of major backlash whenever this sort of thing happens.  I agree with Pook that you can't prevent these reactions in other people.  But I think it's normal to worry about them, because, well, it really hurts us, and it's natural to want to protect ourselves from harm.  My strategy is to "gird my loins" while staying true to my mission (values).

I agree that worrying and thinking about the possible reactions isn't the most functional behavior- and it would be better to not do it, but, if we grew up with this- it had the purpose of helping us to feel safer. It also gave us a sense of control- which was probably an illusion but when we had no control over BPD mother's reactions, we could at least try to anticipate them.

It takes some time to "undo" some of this learned behavior and also it may not be possible to completely unlearn it, but we can recognize it and rationalize it which helps us to manage the feelings.

If this happens in adulthood in a marriage, the behaviors can still be learned and adaptive but also these experiences might elicit a childhood response if we also had a disordered parent growing up.

It's not a normal thing to feel we have to strategize with a family member but the backlash can be significant. It also can be unavoidable. We can learn to be less reactive to the person's reaction. When we told BPD mother about the trip to my father's family she was angry, upset, then refused to speak to us. By that time I had learned to not react or JADE when she was upset. A few weeks later she was speaking to us as usual as if nothing happened.

But sometimes the reactions could be worse- she could destroy property, "paint us black" to others. If she told my father we upset her, he might get angry too. So we did learn to avoid them if possible and even if it wasn't possible, it was how we tried to deal with that.