Do I Dig Up the Past or Let it Go?

[Pook075]

Hi friends.  I was talking to my daugher last night (the non-BPD daughter) and we got into an argument over a truck that I let her BPD mom keep in the divorce.  We divorced without attorneys involved and agreed to split things evenly.  We both had cars with loans on them, we both had credit card debt, and there were very few other things to fight over.  One item was an older pickup though that my wife said was hers because it was in her name, so I told her to keep it.  It did bother me though because I bought it for her and paid it off entirely on my own...it was in her name to build credit from a buy here, pay here type of place.

Anyway, we divorce several years ago, I get our home ready to sell, and we split the profits 50/50.  She abandoned me for another man and didn't pay a penny on any bills for almost a year, and I had to cash in a smaller 401k to avoid losing the home.  I should have got my money back before the 50/50 and she shouldn't have got the truck, but whatever.  I didn't want to argue and I just wanted things to be finished.  I was thrilled we actually divorced without attorneys and I figured the $50k+ I paid over a few years while she was out having fun was the cost of marrying/divorcing her.

However, the truck...that darn truck.  Our agreement was that she could keep it, but I could use it anytime.  I was good with that.  But my daughter ended up using the truck often with her husband because they started a landscaping company for side money.  Then the truck broke down and my wife said that since they were driving it, they needed ot fix it.  That made me mad, but whatever.  Then the truck needed tires, and my wife told them they had to buy them.  Then it needed more tires because the alignment is bad.  Then a 3rd set.  Each time, my wife told them they broke it, they fix it.

Then the conversation changed.  My daughter and her husband said, "We've put like $2k into this truck, just let us buy it from you and we'll fix it up."  My wife refused.  They offered $3k, $4k, but my wife said it's worth at least $9k or more.  This angered me even more, but whatever.   Not my truck, not my fight, let it go.  Then there were engine problems and my kid paid for that as well, over $700 total.  So now they've spent close to $3k on a truck that isn't theirs.

The truck has been broken down for maybe 6 months now, my wife still refuses to sell it to them, and it's just going to rot unless they continue to fix it themselves.  Now I'm furious.  I spend good money on that truck, took care of it, and my kid is being abused because of my ex's entitlement.  I finally lost it last night and ranted to my kid when this came up- that should be my truck, I paid every penny on that truck, your mom's a selfish <beep beep>, etc.

I've been thinking of talking to my ex and asking for her to give me the truck, I'd get it running well again, then the kids can have it.  I absolutely refuse to spend a penny on it though when it's so clearly "her truck".  My ex re-married a rich guy so this isn't a money thing...it's a pride thing.  They should just fix the truck and let our kid have it.  Or at least give it to them as-is.

I know this is dumb and I should let it go, but the one area I will always struggle with is my ex treating our two daughters poorly.  I can't help it, I blow a gasket every time.  What would you do?

[Me88]

I'd let it go. You have the problem of sharing children with this woman so you kind of have to be 'involved' with her. I am doing all I can to stay away from my ex because I know crazy they can get in an instant.

Your daughter is an adult and she truly did use the truck frequently for landscaping. That truly could have caused some of those issues? And it is your ex wife's truck, she doesn't HAVE TO sell it to her own daughter.

I always vote to stay away from the BPD unless you absolutely have to communicate. And for me, it's situations like this that keep us tangled up in the nonsense that is the mind of BPD.

[CC43]

Hi Pook,

In my humble opinion, you stay out of it.  This is between your daughter and her mom.  I think that you and I know that her mom won't play fair, let alone consider her own daughter's interests.  Maybe that's a valuable lesson your daughter needs to learn (along with, not to pour time or money into fixing other people's property, unless she's prepared to gift it or lose it).  I know, I know, you had a "deal," but in my experience, pwBPD love to make "deals" where you pay or sacrifice up front, in return for a future promise that they almost invariably renege on!  They'll make up some convoluted excuse not to honor the deal, or straight up deny you had a deal in the first place, or flip the script and say you're the one who didn't honor the deal.  I think you probably know this already.  The rub is that here, you have no way to enforce your "rights."  You can't kick your wife out because she's already gone, and she has the car title.  Furthermore, I think it comes down to a control move by your ex.  The second you get involved, she's going to double down.  She has something your daughter wants, which is more power to her.

Look, presumably your daughter made some money by borrowing someone else's asset.  That's not such a bad deal.  Yet in my opinion, going forward, I think your daughter and her partner should save up for their own truck.  Maybe they ask their customers to pre-pay for some services.  Maybe they take out a truck loan.  I think they leave mom out of the equation completely, because she's not a reliable business partner.  Make sense?

[Pook075]

Thanks to both of you for the opinions.  I know to let it go...it's just one of those few things that still get under my skin.  I have a good relationship with my ex, so you're both right, this is not a battle I should take part in.

And CC, I 100% agree.  If I do nothing about the truck, the best move is to tell my kid to get a different truck and send mom's back to her.  They did profit off using it but they weren't making ends meet on their regular income- they needed the work and didn't want handouts.  That's what we want our kids to do in life...which I guess is why I'm so frustrated at the situation.

[ForeverDad]

Who has been paying the insurance on the truck - ex or your daughter?  Is the insurance still in place?

While I agree that it is best to avoid entanglements with an ex, you did say the divorce was somewhat amicable, not typical for most of us.  My thought is that you could try a one-time offer to assume ownership on a strictly "sign it over" basis.  Your leverage is that it's stuck on D's property and your ex might let you "fix it up".  What would happen after that would remain unsaid.

And this just might end one of your remaining peeves with your ex.  Who knows?

[CC43]

It's laudable that your kid is working overtime to make ends meet.  That's why I'm optimistic that she'll figure something out.  Yet my firm opinion is that her mom is not a good or fair business partner.  I'd say, give the truck back to her mom and find another solution.

I think this sort of thing can happen between exes, even in the absence of a personality disorder.  I have a relative close to me who is trying to finalize a divorce.  One of the sticking points is ownership of the dog.  The proposal is to share the dog.  I've advised my relative not to share the dog, because he shouldn't want to have repeated interactions, let alone negotiations, with his ex.  You see, his ex has quite an "entitled" view of the world.  Simply put, she wants 50% of the assets, but 0% of the liabilities, as she refuses to take them into account.  A simple explanation is she wants her cake and to eat it too.  She wants the stock portfolio (which she didn't contribute a penny to or purchase any investments herself . . .), but she can't withstand seeing the value fluctuate on a daily basis.  So she wants to cash out, but not pay any capital gains taxes.  She thinks her ex should sell the portfolio, give her 100% of the proceeds in cash, and have him foot the tax bill.  Not fair, right?  But that's how she thinks.  In her mind, she wants none of the liabilities, and feigns ignorance and financial ineptitude to get her way.  The same sort of thing would happen with sharing a dog:  she wants to play with it, but not have to pay for a kennel or dog sitting when she travels, and not have to pay for the vet or pet insurance.  She wants all the benefits but none of the obligations.  I think it's how your wife thinks:  she wants ownership car but expects others to pay to fix it.  I think that will never, ever change.

Anyway, I advised my brother to offer his ex full ownership of the dog.  Chances are she won't want it because she doesn't want the obligations.  And then he might be able to keep it.  If she decides to take the dog just to "spite" him, well then he can get another one.  Like you've said before, it's not worth arguing over, now or in the future, let alone the legal fees.  It's a dog, not a kid.  Sharing a dog would be like buying future arguments:  What if somebody wants to move?  What if one person wants to get the dog spayed?  What if the repeated pet handovers get complicated?  Too much could go wrong in my opinion.

[ForeverDad]

I think this sort of thing can happen between exes, even in the absence of a personality disorder... She wants the stock portfolio (which she didn't contribute a penny to or purchase any investments herself . . .), but she can't withstand seeing the value fluctuate on a daily basis.  So she wants to cash out, but not pay any capital gains taxes.  She thinks her ex should sell the portfolio, give her 100% of the proceeds in cash, and have him foot the tax bill.  Not fair, right?  But that's how she thinks.  In her mind, she wants none of the liabilities, and feigns ignorance and financial ineptitude to get her way.

Divorces have structured processes for division of retirement accounts.  With a qualified domestic relations order (QDRO) the ownership of account portfolios is split before the contents are sold.  That way, once the ownership has transferred to the other's account, the liability is transferred with the ownership.  I am unsure whether this concept applies to other types of investment accounts.

[Pook075]

Who has been paying the insurance on the truck - ex or your daughter?  Is the insurance still in place?

While I agree that it is best to avoid entanglements with an ex, you did say the divorce was somewhat amicable, not typical for most of us.  My thought is that you could try a one-time offer to assume ownership on a strictly "sign it over" basis.  Your leverage is that it's stuck on D's property and your ex might let you "fix it up".  What would happen after that would remain unsaid.

And this just might end one of your remaining peeves with your ex.  Who knows?

Honestly, I didn't think to ask.  They probably don't have collission since it's just an old Toyota full-sized work truck.  But I'd guess my ex has been paying it.

That could actually sweeten the deal, it saves her money and I deal with all the problems.  But I'm okay with that.

[Pook075]

It's laudable that your kid is working overtime to make ends meet.  That's why I'm optimistic that she'll figure something out.  Yet my firm opinion is that her mom is not a good or fair business partner.  I'd say, give the truck back to her mom and find another solution.

With home prices, interest rates, and just general inflation, people 30 or younger have a decent chance of never owning their own home.  Rent prices are absolutely insane these days too because nobody can afford to buy.  They both work and do the lawn care on the side just to basically break even each month. 

I absolutely hate that for them, but I do admire that they're doing it anyway and raising two kids.

[CC43]

Hi again,

I get that the costs of living seem only to increase.  I've volunteered in a financial education capacity and seen how much people struggle these days.

I guess my tip for your daughter and SIL would be to start by tracking expenses.  Knowledge is power.  Maybe they already know where all their money is being spent, but it can help to track anyway, if only by making spending more intentional.

I have another, perhaps unconventional tip, which would be to try eliminating screen entertainment at home, completely.  In my 20s and early 30s, that meant not buying a TV, let alone cable service.  I didn't pay for any cable TV until my 40s, and I found it liberating.  It wasn't so much the monetary savings, to the tune of $150 a month or thereabouts, but the time savings.  I probably got 20 hours or more per week back.  Those hours I "reinvested" in myself:  working more hours for extra pay and bonuses, learning, socializing, exercising, getting good sleep.  Ultimately, I think that time is money, and without the temptation of entertaining screens at home, less time is wasted.  You might think, it's not possible to do that today.  I'd say, it is.  My Gen X sister had no screens (internet or TV) in her home for years, until recently, when she started a new hybrid job.  Her kids grew up with no screens (except for a brief hiatus during Covid when "learning" remotely at home).  That opened up all sorts of possibilities for creative play, music, reading, etc.  The kids did their internet-based homework at the school or public library.

And my last tip is the conventional one:  Make your own food, coffee, snacks, etc.  Pack up lunches to take to work.  It's much, much cheaper and healthier, too.  It takes a little effort and planning, yes, but I'd say it takes less time that it would take to order takeout and pick it up.  Don't get me started on DoorDash.

[Notwendy]

Pook- I think one reason this irks you is that you are thinking about this logically, fairly, and because it is hurtful to your child. For your ex with BPD- her reasons may not make sense- because they are emotional.

For my BPD mother, objects to her were a form of control. What gave her "power" was if she had something we wanted, or valued. Even if she didn't want something herself,  if she knew we wanted it, then she'd keep it.

Even if something belonged to us. Sometimes, if she was angry and dissociated- she'd destroy things we cared about. Or she could threaten us that she'd do it.

In her elder years, she'd say she wanted to "downsize" but couldn't because of all the things in her house. Yet, if we offered to take any of them, she wouldn't let us do that. Even our own things. I had some items from college in her house and when I tried to take them, she ran after me telling me I can't have anything in her house, so I put them back.

She would ask us what we wanted, and if we said we wanted something, then she'd change her mind and decide to keep it.

We wondered if this was due to a fear of abandonment- that maybe if we took all the things we wanted, we wouldn't visit her. That wasn't true, so we tried saying "we are here for you, not your possessions" and refuse to take anything. We thought that would reassure her, but that seemed to bother her more, so sometimes I went along with her "do you want this" and just said "yes" whether I wanted it or not, just to give her the "yes" she wanted, but she didn't give me the items I said "yes" to.

I realized the only way I could emotionally "untangle" myself from this dynamic was to not have any interest in anything she owned. That wasn't true, I didn't want items for their material value but some were sentimental. Still, I knew to not react emotionally if she brought them up.

She did this "do you want this" and change her mind to one of my kids, and I could see my kid's tears welling up. So I get why you feel this way for your own kid. She didn't want the item, your wife doesn't need the truck. It would be a kind thing to do to just let your child buy it for the cost she offered.

But here's the result, this impacted her relationship with this grandchild who by then was a young adult. Your D will experience this with her own mother. As much as we want to protect our own kids from hurtful behavior, once they are adults, they can assess their relationships for themselves. While we do expect our kids to act with decency/respectfully to a mother/grandmother - that doesn't mean they have to want to be close to them.

Yes, I was upset to see my mother refuse to give something to my kid- after offering it, however, this was between the two of them. I didn't need to intervene between them. I don't think you do either.

If it were my situation, for me, that truck is long gone. The only control I have would be my own feelings of attachment to it. I also would feel for my child in this situation but if your ex is going to treat your D like this, this is on her and your D will respond according to her own boundaries.

If you want to and are able to help your D get a truck, then help her to get another one, within budget, and if not with money- you can also offer to go with her to look at trucks and help her choose one she likes and can afford. I know each family manages this differently, but for young people, a first time car/truck purchase can be intimidating and they may appreciate a parent going with them to help them decide on one.