Waif, Witch, Queen, Hermit: all at once or rotating one by one?

[TDeer]

Do the four roles played by the BPD happen all at once? Or do they rotate through the roles? Is it something that cycles? How can you ever expect which one you're dealing with?


I suspect that my uBPD MIL is currently in hermit mode, as she hasn't bothered to respond to my attempts to move forward. However, my husband knows I've tried so it's not like that isn't its own reward.

But now I know she's still cycling through roles I guess? If I'm working with a therapist, should I ask them to help me see which role she's using at any given time? Or am I missing the big picture somewhere?

[P.F.Change]

To me that book is a little like a horoscope. It has some good information in there, and I did enjoy it, but it wasn't the most practical one for me. I got a lot more out of reading about the partner subtypes (i.e., my dad).

The idea with Understanding the Borderline Mother is that your pwBPD will probably fit into one subcategory more than the others (with the exception of Witch, which, if I'm remembering correctly, can be experienced intermittently by all of them). That doesn't mean it's one or the other, all-or-nothing, just that in general one set of behaviors is more descriptive than some of the others. There's not advice that only works for one type--it all can work depending on the situation.

It seems like it might be more helpful to you to look at specific behaviors and how you want to respond, rather than worry about how to fit your MIL into a category. What do you think?

[Naughty Nibbler]

I suspect that my uBPD MIL is currently in hermit mode, as she hasn't bothered to respond to my attempts to move forward. However, my husband knows I've tried so it's not like that isn't its own reward.

You may have to  RADICAL ACCEPT  that you won't get a response from your MIL, or the response you want.  It may have to be good enough that you tried your best and that your husband knows you tried. 

[Turkish]

PFC's impression of Understanding The Borderline Mother aligns with my review of that book. It's more of a horoscope than a Bible, though Lawson provides some guidance on validating the pwBPD for each type, which is useful.  Have you read the book?

As for your T, this depends upon how he or she is experienced with BPD. It might help to back away from "pathologizing" the behaviors (my T helped me with this) and rather focusing upon the behaviors themselves and how you can deal with those.  

That being said,  which "role" are you most struggling with at the moment? Perhaps we can help by narrowing things down. 

[Notwendy]

I found the book very informative but also keep in mind that BPD is a spectrum. The types mentioned in the book are common ways BPD presents in people, but it isn't necessary that one person only acts out in one type.

My mother tends to alternate between Queen/Witch and Waif. Queen/Witch when she wants her way- barking and snarling orders, being critical. Waif when this role doesn't work and she's trying to get her way through sympathy. Waif if she is actually confronted with her behavior so she doesn't assume responsibility.

Waif is the hardest one for me to deal with because in a way, it is real- she is an elderly widow and I know that it is hard to be alone at that age. Yet, she can turn into Queen/Witch in an instant and that isn't pleasant to be around.

It's interesting that long before the book came out and we were kids, we thought our mother was some kind of magical witch who alternated between the two roles in the Wizard of Oz. Sometimes she was the good witch, and sometimes the bad.

[StillReeling]

Do the four roles played by the BPD happen all at once? Or do they rotate through the roles? Is it something that cycles? How can you ever expect which one you're dealing with?

I haven't read the work this typology comes from, except it's meant to be somehow specific to BPD mothers and not other pwBPD(?), and my understanding is that the author suggests each pwBPD is generally only going to be one of these types.

However, in my own experience with a recent ex, they did tend to cycle through these types – at times waif-like and needy, at other times hermit-like and agoraphobic, sometimes narcissistic and queen-like, and at still other times vengeful and waspish with her many acquired enemies and many bitter text wars.

I'm not sure how useful the typology is as a total descriptor, other typologies useful to understand my ex were the straightforward internalizing/externalizing grouping discovered or perhaps just validated by factor analysis in 2017, other authors had similar descriptors already – if you're an extrovert, you're going to be an externalising pwBPD, and you may come across more as a Glenn Close 'acting out' type than a Girl Interrupted 'acting in' type.  The cluster analysis study also found that externalisers were robust, not prone to self harm, and unfortunately had strong characteristics of the other three Cluster B personalities as well – narcissism, antisocial or psychopathic, and histrionic, which is a pretty heady brew for any neurotypical to have to deal with in a relationship.  It's possible they are best understood and accepted by other Cluster B individuals, as put simply they are all on the same wavelength.  This is not to say they prefer to seek out other Cluster Bs  as partners, because they prefer a symbiosis with somebody who gives more and can be taken advantage of.  And there are a lot more traits and characteristics associated with each subtype, even though all loosely qualify under the 9 DSM criteria.  In fact, from memory, DSM is pretty silent on any kinds of subtypes or typologies, and it does not provide descriptions of just how toxic and pathological engaging with such people can be.

[Notwendy]

The DSM is for diagnostic purposes when used by trained professionals- it's not a long description of all the different ways a person can behave with BPD. 

The Borderline Mother book is not for diagnosis and was not written for use by professionals.

I read the Borderline Mother book many years ago and it was helpful in recognizing my mother's behaviors. I didn't find a description that fit my father well. It was helpful in feeling I was not the only one who was dealing with these kinds of behaviors and it gave me a vocabulary for describing them - Queen, Witch, etc. But yes, I agree, it's more like reading a horoscope and a story than a measurement of BPD or a way to put them into subtypes.

BPD is also a spectrum disorder and so the behaviors can vary. I agree it's best to deal with the behaviors as they are, but the book can help to understand them better.

[formflier]

Knowing which ones you like and dislike can help you be introspective as well. 

I naturally lean towards fixing/helping...so waifish stuff, well I have to be careful that I don't jump in to "fix" to quickly or too hard. 

Witch and Queen are the primary modes when my wife does her BPDish stuff..  Hermit is pretty rare.

Best,

FF

[Methuen]

If I'm working with a therapist, should I ask them to help me see which role she's using at any given time? Or am I missing the big picture somewhere?

I wouldn’t get bogged down in which role she’s in.  The book for me, seemed pretty anecdotal from her clinical experience.  There were times reading it that I became a bit uncomfortable with the level of authority placed on anecdotes.  Having said that, I could certainly recognize the patterns of the 4 Types in my mom.  I found it supportive in that it validated  my experience.  What has been most helpful for me is learning new tools of communication from this site to manage how I react to her.  My mom used to be mosly queen.  The witch appeared when she periodically imploded.  Now that she is elderly and frail in a pandemic, , she is hermit /waif.  Its kind of like a shifting sand dune.  Acquiring new tools for the toolbox was more helpful than analyzing which role she was in.

[beatricex]

just practicing editing...