Ex making the separation complicated

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hey guys,

Wonderful to see such a strong support group here and I hope to participate and heal and help others heal as well.

Coming to my problem. My ex (who is still my legal wife) is making it really difficult to move forward with the separation.

We have been living apart since Sept, sans a short trip which I made to her current city of residence (Bombay) on her birthday in October. Needless to say, during which I was treated very badly by her. It took me 3 months of depression to finally realize by sometime early January that she had BPD. Every small detail of her behaviour adds up to it. Unfortunately I had no idea before this, that something like this exists. I always thought she had depression/mood disorders or something of the sorts.

In January I finally asked for legal separation very clearly, which earlier I had only given her as an option if she can't commit fully to the relationship. She agreed a few days later and told me that she'll let me know the dates when she can travel to Delhi (my current city of residence). It was agreed that if this doesn't happen now, we'll file for the mutual divorce after her program gets over in mid-march, for which she has been in Bombay.

It's been over 40 days since that chat and n/c. And yesterday I discovered through social media that she has been traveling to other cities for weddings and what not. So I gave her a call which she didn't answer, so I followed up with a text asking her if she has decided on the dates, again with no response.

I have been seeking therapy and my therapist has advised me to focus on my career etc. (From which I had taken a conscious break as of now).

I kind of now understand all the erratic behaviour. And I am sure this separation might not be as easy as I had hoped it to be. There are 3 possible scenarios:

1. She lives up to her agreement, comes to Delhi sometime in the next month or two and we peacefully sign the mutual separation and do as the court asks us to do (which has started to seem less likely by the minute)
2. She comes back crying one day, apologizing for all the wrongs and when turned down gets into self destructive mode, slicing wrists etc. (There have been multiple precedents when I have tried breaking up and something like this happened)
3. She makes the legal battle ugly, which is very easy to do if you are a woman in india. Certain laws hold the man guilty until proven innocent.

Both scenarios 2 and 3 make things very very difficult for me. And scenario 1 seems likely only if she has found someone stable to latch on to (and mess up his life as well ) or she gets a super sexy job post her program. It's very likely that she has had fling(s) in the past few months, and I am actually hoping that one of them gets serious and so she'd want the divorce sooner.

I was structuring my thought in this fashion "how do you get a 2 year old to do something?"

What suggestions do you have?

PS: the only reason I want to start the divorce proceedings as soon as possible is so that I can start dating again and start working on my career. And it'll take a while of both for me to heal completely

[Old J Man]

Hey guys,

Wonderful to see such a strong support group here and I hope to participate and heal and help others heal as well.

Coming to my problem. My ex (who is still my legal wife) is making it really difficult to move forward with the separation.

We have been living apart since Sept, sans a short trip which I made to her current city of residence (Bombay) on her birthday in October. Needless to say, during which I was treated very badly by her. It took me 3 months of depression to finally realize by sometime early January that she had BPD. Every small detail of her behaviour adds up to it. Unfortunately I had no idea before this, that something like this exists. I always thought she had depression/mood disorders or something of the sorts.

In January I finally asked for legal separation very clearly, which earlier I had only given her as an option if she can't commit fully to the relationship. She agreed a few days later and told me that she'll let me know the dates when she can travel to Delhi (my current city of residence). It was agreed that if this doesn't happen now, we'll file for the mutual divorce after her program gets over in mid-march, for which she has been in Bombay.

It's been over 40 days since that chat and n/c. And yesterday I discovered through social media that she has been traveling to other cities for weddings and what not. So I gave her a call which she didn't answer, so I followed up with a text asking her if she has decided on the dates, again with no response.

I have been seeking therapy and my therapist has advised me to focus on my career etc. (From which I had taken a conscious break as of now).

I kind of now understand all the erratic behaviour. And I am sure this separation might not be as easy as I had hoped it to be. There are 3 possible scenarios:

1. She lives up to her agreement, comes to Delhi sometime in the next month or two and we peacefully sign the mutual separation and do as the court asks us to do (which has started to seem less likely by the minute)
2. She comes back crying one day, apologizing for all the wrongs and when turned down gets into self destructive mode, slicing wrists etc. (There have been multiple precedents when I have tried breaking up and something like this happened)
3. She makes the legal battle ugly, which is very easy to do if you are a woman in india. Certain laws hold the man guilty until proven innocent.

Both scenarios 2 and 3 make things very very difficult for me. And scenario 1 seems likely only if she has found someone stable to latch on to (and mess up his life as well ) or she gets a super sexy job post her program. It's very likely that she has had fling(s) in the past few months, and I am actually hoping that one of them gets serious and so she'd want the divorce sooner.

I was structuring my thought in this fashion "how do you get a 2 year old to do something?"

What suggestions do you have?

PS: the only reason I want to start the divorce proceedings as soon as possible is so that I can start dating again and start working on my career. And it'll take a while of both for me to heal completely

[ForeverDad]

Separation or divorce do have legal implications, however if you feel your post should be elsewhere, understand that you won't get responses from those who frequent the Family Law board.  (This board is generally my home base, mush less frequently I read and post on the other boards.)

A behavioural question on how to get a pwBPD to do something... .You likely can't make her do anything.  One aspect of BPD is that the person tunes out the close relationships that are ending or have ended.  And we're generally described by the other as abusive, doesn't matter how nice and fair you've been.  Likely one reason is that pwBPD have extreme Denial that they're the biggest problem in the failed relationship.  They express their Denial by claiming the other person was the Problem, the Abuser, or whatever.

Is she in meaningful and effective counseling or therapy, and making real progress?  If so, then that person may be able to guide them away from poor actions, reactions and overreactions.  If not, then don't expect much if any cooperation.  Yes, you may manage to keep thing somewhat civil, maybe, but don't count of it.  remember, appeasing and complying with every demand does not work for very long, eventually the original problems show themselves again.

Don't get back on the roller coaster again unless you're willing to risk returning to the past behaviors.  Are there children?  If not, then don't risk any going forward, best to make a clean break.

[Grey Kitty]

Q: How do you get somebody to do something (that they don't appear to want to do, or at least don't appear to want to do it promptly)?

A: You really can't. Especially if you aren't communicating with them.

If you are not communicating, you don't have a relationship, and you don't have much (if any) influence over the other person.

I only see two ways to approach this:

A legal solution -- where you work with your lawyer and the courts to force her into some for of divorce. While it might be unpleasant and expensive for you, at least you go forward.

A negotiated solution -- where you try to get her to willingly agree to what you want. How well this will go depends on how different what you and she want are.

[Turkish]

It seems like 2 could lead easily to 3. If you may be "guilty until proven innocent, " is that implying the possibility of false accusations? If so,  never be alone with her again.  What ate the personal recording laws like there? Are they national,  or do they vary from state-to-state as they do here? In my state, one can't voice record without the other party's permission. In other states,  this is OK.

As for getting her to do what you want,  as the others say,  you can't.  And as my T reminded me early on,  "divorce by definition is adversarial." This doesn't mean,  however,  that you may not have some influence by way of how you approach this problem. 

And here I have to pause and ask,  do you have any hope that you can reconcile?

I lived with my ex for over 4 months before she could comfortably move out.  Negotiating a "severence" (many thousands of dollars including a down payment on her me car) wasn't difficult. We weren't married,  but we had two little kids,  so the negotiation was the custody agreement; the child support was by state guidelines.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but I used both the communication tools in Lesson 3 on the Improving Board, in combination with some of the Detaching tools.  In short: validate to reduce conflict, and be bland, boring and emotionless on the other side... .also to avoid triggering conflict. I presented the custody arrangement to her as fair, and that it also protected her (and the kids). I hired a lawyer.  She eventually signed a few months after she moved out.  Originally, she didn't want to.  I had to identify her core concern/fear, not trigger it badly, and validate what was valid (legal protections for all of us).

This took me stuffing my pain and being... .well, like Spock, in a sense.  I feel for you.  My career suffered a little.  I received my first poor job performance review on 24 years due to be not being able to concentrate. It cost my options, stock and even a token merit increase. Many thousands of dollars if i were to extrapolate it. Our mental health,  however,  is paramount.

Given how adversarial this is,  it's harmful to your goal  (separation/divorce and moving on with your life) to hint or telegraph this in the slightest to her.  If you're absolutely sure that you're done, we can help you move forward safely, despite not being familiar with Indian laws. The BPD behaviors, and dealing with them,  the members on this board have over a decade's worth of experience dealing with, which is why you are best served here, though do check out the Improving Lessons and see if some can help.

3.5 years ago, I never thought I'd make it out the other side intact, despite the assurances, support and advice from veterans here (not to mention the resources like lessons and books),  but I did. 

Turkish

[Old J Man]

Separation or divorce do have legal implications, however if you feel your post should be elsewhere, understand that you won't get responses from those who frequent the Family Law board.  (This board is generally my home base, mush less frequently I read and post on the other boards.)

A behavioural question on how to get a pwBPD to do something... .You likely can't make her do anything.  One aspect of BPD is that the person tunes out the close relationships that are ending or have ended.  And we're generally described by the other as abusive, doesn't matter how nice and fair you've been.  Likely one reason is that pwBPD have extreme Denial that they're the biggest problem in the failed relationship.  They express their Denial by claiming the other person was the Problem, the Abuser, or whatever.

Is she in meaningful and effective counseling or therapy, and making real progress?  If so, then that person may be able to guide them away from poor actions, reactions and overreactions.  If not, then don't expect much if any cooperation.  Yes, you may manage to keep thing somewhat civil, maybe, but don't count of it.  remember, appeasing and complying with every demand does not work for very long, eventually the original problems show themselves again.

Don't get back on the roller coaster again unless you're willing to risk returning to the past behaviors.  Are there children?  If not, then don't risk any going forward, best to make a clean break.

That's right. She had painted all of her exes in a dark abusive light and I had spoken to a couple of them in confidence during one of our previous showdowns, and they didn't seem to have one mean bone in their body and didn't even speak about her badly. So I assumed at that point in time that it's a typical case of "he said" vs "she said", which I now understand wasn't necessarily that simple

When we were staying together and even the first few months apart till the point we were speaking, I had convinced her for therapy however she would say yes at the moment but later would chicken out. However at that point in time I didn't have clarity that this could be something as serious as BPD.

Getting back on the roller coaster is not even a question. It's only the distance which gave me so much clarity on what really happened with me and what is wrong with her. In fact this has happened twice earlier in our two year relationship, when I eventually ended up forgiving her and going back. But that will never happen again as I understand the amount of psychological damage that I have undergone.

No children, thankfully.

[Old J Man]

To be honest the communication went away after 6 months into the relationship, where all she would want to do is not speak for a length and then get up one day and asking to "let go" without any mature chat or conflict resolution. So it probably hasn't been a relationship for a while.

You are right, the first solution might turn out to be painful and expensive. However also knowing her, she might have emotional outbursts in court making things simpler for me.

How do I even come to negotiated solution with no communication. Even in the relationship she would never be able to tell, what she needs.

And what could she possibly want from me now?

Me - not going to happen
Money - I will fight in court, especially since I am not even working now and the massive sums of money I have already spent on her
Revenge - shucks :/

Can she be seeking revenge?

Q: How do you get somebody to do something (that they don't appear to want to do, or at least don't appear to want to do it promptly)?

A: You really can't. Especially if you aren't communicating with them.

If you are not communicating, you don't have a relationship, and you don't have much (if any) influence over the other person.

I only see two ways to approach this:

A legal solution -- where you work with your lawyer and the courts to force her into some for of divorce. While it might be unpleasant and expensive for you, at least you go forward.

A negotiated solution -- where you try to get her to willingly agree to what you want. How well this will go depends on how different what you and she want are.

[Old J Man]

That's great advice Turkish, to not be alone with her ever. Will keep that in mind.

However yes there can be false accusations, of Domestic Violence, Rape and Dowry (it's an Indian thing Google it). Courts are more careful now as there have been many many instances of abuse of this law to squeeze the guys.

And yes, scenario 2 could also lead to scenario 3. :/

No hopes of reconciliation. I can empathize with her psychological condition but I am not the right person to be a caregiver after gone through so much trauma. It's my own psychological health which I have to worry about first. I am genetically susceptible to depression and have overcome it in the past successfully (without meds). Only to revisit those horrible dark dungeons from Oct to Dec 2016. It took immense amount of self control and hacking my own subconscious to get out of it. ( I still have minor traces as per both my T and myself and still need some work and some healing).

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I will definitely check out the resources you mentioned.

Also if I understood you correctly, you are suggesting that any point in time I should not tell or even hint to her that she has a serious personality disorder?

My plan was that once all of the legal work is finished (hopefully by the end of this year) I'll probably tell a friend of hers who can then probably get her some help. If, she is able to hold onto her friends, which has been very difficult for her.

Or did you mean I should not tell her about the problems which I have undergone because of her (which I definitely do not plan to bring up, unless it has to be done in court).

Thanks for all the support guys. You have no idea how much it means that someone understands. All of my friends and my mum can try to understand but no one can truly grasp the extent of emotional abuse and trauma I have faced.

I will keep you guys posted.

Cheers

It seems like 2 could lead easily to 3. If you may be "guilty until proven innocent, " is that implying the possibility of false accusations? If so,  never be alone with her again.  What ate the personal recording laws like there? Are they national,  or do they vary from state-to-state as they do here? In my state, one can't voice record without the other party's permission. In other states,  this is OK.

As for getting her to do what you want,  as the others say,  you can't.  And as my T reminded me early on,  "divorce by definition is adversarial." This doesn't mean,  however,  that you may not have some influence by way of how you approach this problem.  

And here I have to pause and ask,  do you have any hope that you can reconcile?

I lived with my ex for over 4 months before she could comfortably move out.  Negotiating a "severence" (many thousands of dollars including a down payment on her me car) wasn't difficult. We weren't married,  but we had two little kids,  so the negotiation was the custody agreement; the child support was by state guidelines.

It may seem counter-intuitive, but I used both the communication tools in Lesson 3 on the Improving Board, in combination with some of the Detaching tools.  In short: validate to reduce conflict, and be bland, boring and emotionless on the other side... .also to avoid triggering conflict. I presented the custody arrangement to her as fair, and that it also protected her (and the kids). I hired a lawyer.  She eventually signed a few months after she moved out.  Originally, she didn't want to.  I had to identify her core concern/fear, not trigger it badly, and validate what was valid (legal protections for all of us).

This took me stuffing my pain and being... .well, like Spock, in a sense.  I feel for you.  My career suffered a little.  I received my first poor job performance review on 24 years due to be not being able to concentrate. It cost my options, stock and even a token merit increase. Many thousands of dollars if i were to extrapolate it. Our mental health,  however,  is paramount.

Given how adversarial this is,  it's harmful to your goal  (separation/divorce and moving on with your life) to hint or telegraph this in the slightest to her.  If you're absolutely sure that you're done, we can help you move forward safely, despite not being familiar with Indian laws. The BPD behaviors, and dealing with them,  the members on this board have over a decade's worth of experience dealing with, which is why you are best served here, though do check out the Improving Lessons and see if some can help.

3.5 years ago, I never thought I'd make it out the other side intact, despite the assurances, support and advice from veterans here (not to mention the resources like lessons and books),  but I did.  

Turkish

[takingandsending]

My plan was that once all of the legal work is finished (hopefully by the end of this year) I'll probably tell a friend of hers who can then probably get her some help. If, she is able to hold onto her friends, which has been very difficult for her.

Hello,

I am glad that you are getting the T that you need to learn about yourself in this process. I have gone through a similar process as well. Regarding telling her friends about BPD, I don't recommend it. In the end, it is really up to your wife to stand on her own or fall on her own. I made this mistake myself, but did so before separating from my wife (we are in process of divorce now). I told a few friends of hers/ours in hopes that they could understand why my wife did the push/pull with them, to let them know she has a good heart but bad behavior at times. It didn't really change anything, other than create more resentment from my wife when she eventually found out that I "thought" she had a personality disorder and had told her friends.

Put another way, do you think your wife thinks she has a mental illness? If the answer is "no", then how might she view your telling her friends that she has a mental illness? In the end analysis, I was doing what I have done throughout my relationship with my wife, I was getting involved in what was not mine (weak boundaries, esteem) and trying to spare her from experiencing the consequences of her own bad behavior (co-dependence). Her friends are no more obligated to help your wife than you are. She has to learn to help herself if she is ever to find a balance with her illness, but it is her, and only her, choice.

Hope this helps. Keep posting and good luck.

[Turkish]

As much as you may still care for her (or at least her welfare), telling someone they have a mental illness isn't fruitful (at best). BPD is a shame-based disorder. Even couched in the most sympathetic terms,  she's likely to lash out, possibly accusing you of the same. Your depression struggles will likely be a target for her as well.

Regarding what takingandsending said, even if her friends know she has issues like they'll side with her.  It's a very rare case here where friends validate us. My ex's family sympathized with me,  even her mom,  but she's still their blood. 

A few months ago, I was offering support to my ex with regard to her current husband (which devolved into domestic violence on both sides, but mostly her). She said that I was more helpful than her friends, who meant well. I asked why. She said at the time, her friends encouraged her to leave me and find her own happiness.  Like that Eat, Pray, Love book and movie.  That was her peer support system. This discussion on telling someone they have BPD can help: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=76633.0;all

I told my ex once, and she told me later it scared the crap out of her.  She's clinically diagnosed with depression and anxiety.  She forgot about it.  A month before she moved out,  she entered our home,  went into the bedroom and collapsed on my bed,  which she had abandoned for the couch 3 month's previously.  I urged her to get help. She accused me of "throwing my 'sickness' in my face." I thought I was being compassionate and soothing, but it wasn't taken that way.  I thereafter detached. 

Though I've worked with many Indians in my career in high tech,  making friends with a few (women), I only have a 30k ft view of the culture.  I wasn't aware of these specific issues. I'll check out your link,  too. 

T

[ForeverDad]

In my country the courts don't try to fix the spouses, they deal with them as they are and even seem to purposely ignore the ongoing issues and conflicts.  All the professionals just want the divorce process to unwind the marriage to get done with the least amount of interaction possible.

Your spouse has had many opportunities, over many years, to make improvements to her perceptions and behaviors.  While it might be that some advice from you could help her gain insight, those odds are very low.  BPD is a disorder most evident in close relationships.  Others may have noticed some poor behaviors but weren't all that close.  You were.  There's probably too much baggage from the close relationship for her to listen to you.  Especially if she feels entitled or is very oppositional.  If you do mention something to her friends, make sure it is not done until the marriage is totally over, the divorce complete, etc.  You don't want any rages or scheming targeted at you.  (In my divorce - and others too - it seemed she was determined to make me look worse than her.  Telling someone they have a serious disorder could backfire badly.  So such inclinations need to be discussed with your lawyer and counselor first so they can comment on potential consequences if you act on your do-good feelings that you don't see.)  The advice just to protect yourself and walk away sounds callous, but it is how to be less unsafe.  You don't want to sabotage your life any more than you have already allowed to happen.