Weathering the conflict around boundaries - need support

[Kyanite]

Hi all,

I feel a little silly posting, but really could use some support with this.

Brief background:
Grew up in a family with what I now think is a BPD mom and at least somewhat NPD dad. Not surprisingly, I went out and found a partner who (I think) has some NPD traits. Within the last year or so is when I finally realized how often the way he interacts with me is emotionally abusive. It has also been only about the last few years that I realized and started to try to address my codependency and enabling behaviors.

So now with my husband I am very aware of the cases of invalidation, dismissing, not listening, arguing when I express my opnion, shutting me down or trying to "fix" me when I express any emotion, etc. I am beginning to set boundaries, though admittedly I am being a bit more passive-agressive because I don't want to deal witht he justification. The biggest thing happening right now is that I just am not in the mood to spend time with him. It looks like he is trying to work on some of the issues (like negativity) and improve, so I don't want to leave, but my emotional distance is creating some issues. I am trying to reach out sometimes, but it is hard. I mentioned over the weekend that I was feeling a bit "off," and his respons was that I should "get back 'on'!" Also over the weekend, we started having a discussion about a topic that I manage and have to deal with some frustrations with the computer not always working right. I started getting a bit emphatic and expressing that frustration. He immediately said, "well, I guess I just won't talk to you about this."

I know he is noticing because he is being a bit standoffish. Not quite the silent treatment, but very formal. I am trying to reach out without being a doormat, and whil ehe will respond to hugs and me spending time with him while he does things he wants to do, he doesn't seme to be trying to do anything more.

This is so frustrating. I want to maintain the relationship without just going back to doing everything he wants, because that was making me resentful. I am at the stage of codependency where I am mad at pretty much everything, which I know is not helping. He has a right to not want to be around that, but I can't feel conencted to someone that I have to hide pretty much all my experiences, feelings, & thoughts from. I feel like I can be more authentic with people I have only met a few times than with my own husband. I am trying to reach out, but am not sure how to do that while not wanting to just "take care of" him (i.e. return to the old codependent pattern), and when being authentic feels unsafe.

Any ideas?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Meili]

 

I remember the feelings of frustration that came when I started to pull away from my uBPDexgf and started to live my own life. It was a struggle to do what I needed to do to take care of myself and not feel that I was pushing her away. The thing is, what was happening was a change in the relationship dynamic. It was something new and different for both of us. Neither of us knew exactly how to react to my change, and that made things uncomfortable.

As time progressed, we started to get used to the "new me" and started to become more comfortable with it. I found new ways to show her that I was still interested in her and cared about her. In learning that, I learned to listen with empathy and not invalidate her. It was a win-win situation.

We are taught by the media, romance novels, and movies that when two people enter into a relationship that a new, single entity is formed. This is not only untrue, it's unhealthy. We all need to remain individuals and spend some time doing our own things.

You said that you know that he's noticing, but it also sounds like you are still trying to be the one to "fix" it and make it easier for him. His trepidation is his to own and not yours. You should feel comfortable doing your own thing, and if he wants to participate, great! If he doesn't, I'm sure that's his loss in that he's missing out on part of you.

[Mutt]

Hi Kyanite,

I understand that it can be difficult to talk about things, this is a place where you can share your thoughts and feelings without being invalidated. It helps to get realistic feedback about ourselves from healthier people than our pwBPD/NPD because they often will just say negative things about us, it distorted and it confuses us.

I'd like to add to what Meili said, you'll get some lashing out at first from your pwNPD because they want things to remain the same, it's soothing and change causes anxiety and will trigger the traits of the disorder. You can expect this for awhile but it will eventually level off. It's really important that we take care of ourselves especially when our partner is distorted because it can really take a toll on us emotionally.

Are you feeling emotionally drained at the moment? What do you do for self care? It's also important that we have our own friends that we can do things with' recall what I said about getting a realistic picture about ourselves from the feedback that we receive from others? Being with people that love us unconditionally is a part of self care. What is your support network like?

[Kyanite]

Meli and Mutt, thank you both for your responses.

My support network is anemic at best. Until VERY recently, I essentially got together or had a long talk with a friend about every 2 months. I have started doing more with a Women's group that meets twice a month, but I usually only make 1/month because of scheduling issues. I am reaching out more and doing more, but need to overcome more of my own belief systems to truly start being myself and doing what I want to do.

I had a couple really good days earlier this week (after posting this thread). I watched some videos on Youtube that had great ideas, saw my therapist, got a basic version of the website for MY business that I want to build posted, and started a small online support group fro people in a fitness program that was VERY well received. For a couple of days, I was actually feeling confident, strong, and -dare I say - happy. Yesterday was a horrible work day (I hate my job, but it is fro a business I co-own with my husband and scaling back my responsibilites is complicated). I made very little progress on my to-do lists, partly because I spent a few hours listening to his ideas about improvements the business needs. Then he got mad when I handed him a call from a lead because I was trying to finish up a few things before I went to pick up our child. He had already decided his work day should be done at 4:30 and did not want me to intrude on that. OH WELL.

If I am honest, I guess I am still trying to make it easier for him, especially when I am in my triggered spaces (which unfortunately happens often when I am dealing with him). It looks like he is getting hurt and scared, and it is hard to turn my back on that. A lot of "my things" right now are rather private, or things I don't want him participating in. I don't want his involvement as I am creating elements of my business - he has a tendedncy to go on fro an hour about what HE thinks I should do without ever asking what I have done or what my plans are. If I manage to express some of that, he usually tells me why I am wrong. I don't like going to social outings with him right now, becauae he gets very uncomfortable (he has a VERY hard time in social situations), sticks right with me most of the time, and complains about how I interact, how other people act, how the event is run, etc. I have learned over the years to try to make things easier on him so that I don't have to endure his complaiing, and that cramps my style and the outing ends up being unfulfilling most of the time if I go with him. That is part of why I just gradually withdrew over the past 20 years. It was easier than going out with conflict and not getting any connection anyway.

I guess that is what I am trying to deal with - I don't want to completely abandon him, but "doing my own thing" right now feels best when I don't involve him. Often, I don't even tell him about it because he rarely asks, and when he does ask he often invalidates anything I say or makes some stupid joke out of it. I have little desire to spend time or share with him, and that makes me feel a bit guilty.

What do I do for self-care? In addition to the social connections I mentioned earlier that I am trying to add, I practice mindfulness and do journalling/self-parenting. I try to exercise, but that is inconsistent. I know I need more self-care, but this is a lot more than I used to do, and some days I feel like all I do is self-care to manage my emotional state.

Thanks again for your responses. It is helpful to know this is normal in these circumstances, and that I am not being mean or selfish/narcissistic myself.

[Kyanite]

Needing a bit of validation-

It is not unreasonable to feel frustrated with a job that doesn't suit me, right? It is not unreasonable to feel defeated when my husband wants to add weeks worth of work in a category I don't like in a job I want out of, s it? He gets frustrated when I express anything but joy about his business, but I can't stand working in it. Yeah, I co-own it, but that was a paperwork thing to save some WC insurance and make certain tax things easier. I never wanted to work int he busines, I want out, and I have not been shy about expressing it.

so why don't I just quit? Because it is our family's only source of income right now, and any "job" I could go get working for someone else would just be the same crap I am doing now, and he would probably still expect me to help out in the evenings and on weekends. No thanks.

[Meili]

No, you are not wrong for feeling those things. I think that many of us can say something similar about our jobs. Thankfully, for most of us, from what I can tell, we don't work with our spouses.

I did try to start a business with my uBPDexgf. I had similar experiences. She wanted to all of the "fun stuff" and left all of the responsibility and mundane stuff to me. It never went anywhere. Although, after I ended that relationship, I restarted the business and it's growing faster than I can keep up with. Sure, I'm still doing all of the responsible and mundane stuff, but I'm also doing all of the fun stuff so it balances out.

I wish you well on the new business that you're starting!

I think that the things that you listed that you are doing for you is excellent! I know how hard it is to begin and maintain the changes. The fact that you're putting for the effort is awesome!

You mentioned that you're still trying to make it easier for him. If you stop doing that and allow him to suffer the consequences of his own choices and actions, it will probably serve you both a lot better though. I know that probably feels very counter-intuitive, but it's true. Others learn to become dependent upon us when we do everything for them and save them from their poor choices. In the end, both parties end-up worse off and the relationship will likely implode.

As I'm sure that you've figured out, he'll likely push back against your trying to do something different. It will be strange and unusual for him and he'll likely get scared. Being lovingly detached and consistent during this time is very important. Trying to protect him from his own fears only lead to inconsistency and will teach him that you're still going to do what you've always done. That's the opposite of what you probably want to do.

My personal opinion is that you don't have to abandon him completely while doing your own thing. There are many couples out there who don't work together and have separate hobbies and interests, but who still make time for one another. Or, are you talking about something different?

[Mutt]

You had a horrible workday, we all get them and sometimes we get several of them but it sounds like you happiness in your project, my suggestion for the short term is, find something else to do beside your job, if working on your start up makes you happy then do that. I think when we're not doing what we're suited for , if you're not aligned with your mind, heart and spirit then I think that if we're not in the field we should be in,we can get emotionally and physically sick. It sounds like the business is an extension of himself and he's looking for validation and invalidating you for not listening to your ideas and opinion. We spend a lot of time at work, if you have your own business, you can invest a lot of time in, so I can see why you're frustrated. ‎

[Kyanite]

So yeah, hubby is noticing.

I went out last night to try a class I have really wanted to try for a long time. It was awesome, and when I came back, I was in a good mood and wanted to share, but Had some other things to say first (I had been to the store). I was being kind of playful anyway. Well, DH never even said "how was it?" so I ended up not saying anything about the class. I was rather hurt by his apparent lack of interest, but expected it because he never seems to care about what I feel or my experiences.

That night, DH gets all pissy, but seems like he doesn't want to talk about it, so I don't press. He moves into silent treatment. Ok, whatever. I was still feeling unvalued, but did not want to bring it up because he was already feeling off.

Tonight, I was trying to spend time with him and get closer, but I noticed the feeling unvalued thing was making it hard. So I finally took 10 seconds of courage and used an "I felt" statement to tell him. Turns out he is pissed st me for not telling him about the class, and for "always" having fun by myself and "never" doing fun things together. He is mad that I am not sharing things with him about my life. I expressed that I felt like he was not interested (he tends to get frustrated if I talk about much of anything for more than a minute or 2), and that I have developed some bad habits of being afraid of being judged, esp by him. He said he feels like he has to always walk on eggshells around me and that I make it not fun to go out because I shut down. (I do often shut down when we go out because of his criticism and complaining)

Essentially, he is mad at me for blaming everything on him and thinks I am too over sensitive. Oh, and he HATES even hearing about my business anymore. My non-existent business that has been put on hold multiple times over the last 10 years so I can help him in HIS business. But resentment there is not allowed, in his mind.

 I know I went too far in this conversation. I was trying to express a single thing about a single event, and he pushed it to universals. And I let it and knew it probably would, so it is also my fault. And this is why I don't talk to him unless it is business. But I can't feel connected unless I communicate... .How can I stay "lovingly detached " when I feel so consistently disrespected or unvalued and therefore guarded?

I'm glad that I at least didn't yell or cry this time.

[Grey Kitty]

One thing you might try, especially as you mentioned mindfulness... .I find that radical acceptance goes along with it well.

Accept that you are in a pissy mood about your H, that you are feeling old resentments you stuffed bubble up, and you don't want to be around him and his emotions, don't want to manage him, don't want to be a caretaker, don't want to always have to be the better person, etc., etc.

Stuffing this pissy mood won't fix your resentments. Chances are it will just add to them.

Maybe holding him at a civil/polite distance is exactly what you need to do for a bit.

But know that this feeling mood and feeling will pass. You will feel differently about him when you get through this. And it will be easier to do if you acknowledge it.

[ElinorD]

Kyanite, it's like you're going through what I'm going through! It's funny how it can be comforting to hear that someone else suffers the same things you do. At least we're not alone.

I have also developed the habit of keeping things to myself for fear of him judging me. Which seems justified when ever I stick my neck out and express something. He criticizes, tells me I made the wrong choice, tries to debate with me, or gets really angry. It's hard. And I've become distant.

[ElinorD]

I want to maintain the relationship without just going back to doing everything he wants, because that was making me resentful. I am at the stage of codependency where I am mad at pretty much everything, which I know is not helping. He has a right to not want to be around that, but I can't feel conencted to someone that I have to hide pretty much all my experiences, feelings, & thoughts from. I feel like I can be more authentic with people I have only met a few times than with my own husband. I am trying to reach out, but am not sure how to do that while not wanting to just "take care of" him (i.e. return to the old codependent pattern), and when being authentic feels unsafe.

I could have written all of this myself.  And I'm trying to figure it out, too.

[Kyanite]

One thing you might try, especially as you mentioned mindfulness... .I find that radical acceptance goes along with it well.
... .(snip)
Maybe holding him at a civil/polite distance is exactly what you need to do for a bit.

But know that this feeling mood and feeling will pass. You will feel differently about him when you get through this. And it will be easier to do if you acknowledge it.

I hope it does pass. Setting boundaries is HARD, and it is hard to want to engage with him much at all when responding to his question, "is something wrong?" with a short sentence about how I am frustrated because I discovered some things I had forgotten to do earns a quip-type response about how I need to study time management. Uh, not really - I just have too much on my plate. And what I wanted was to share how I felt, not get lectured on how to fix it.

You are right, though - accepting how I feel does help. Everything is easier when I take time to journal about how I am feeling and let myself FEEL it instead of trying to pretend nothing is happening. Relating to him isn't easier, but I feel better in my own skin and am therefore less reactive.

I REALLY hope this does pass, though, and in a positive way. At the moment, I am not sure I will ever be able to get back to a good place in our relationship.

[Kyanite]

Kyanite, it's like you're going through what I'm going through! It's funny how it can be comforting to hear that someone else suffers the same things you do. At least we're not alone.

I have also developed the habit of keeping things to myself for fear of him judging me. Which seems justified when ever I stick my neck out and express something. He criticizes, tells me I made the wrong choice, tries to debate with me, or gets really angry. It's hard. And I've become distant.

Yes! It is helpful to know someone else is going through the same thing. For me, it helps me accept it more and not feel like I am crazy (because I sometimes wonder if maybe I am just overreacting and am the crazy one). He is not usually one to yell or anything, he just argues ("explains the facts" until I give up. It is still exhausting.

It is hard to start sticking my neck out again no matter what, but I think it is a good thing. We recently had a converswation and I refused to agree with him. Eventually, he said he was just going to go (we were on the phone) because he didn't feel like he was being heard. I told him I heard, but didn't agree. He went silent treatment on me. Ugh.

Update on my situation
I am feeling very frustrated right now. Both of our kids have a significant number of classes they are failing, even though they are both smart and capable. They mostly hide and spend time on screens. My partner wants to take away everything until the kids do their work, I want to develop a plan WITH them and hold them accountable. He is angry that they are messing so much up and that he has to waste time and money on fixing things. He says he wants to help them, but acknowledges that he is also angry. He has said twice today that he just wants them to grow up and move out.  The kids sense it. Our one child (DS2) literally will not share opinions, thoughts, or anything when DH is in the room. Often, he will turn away and find a reason to not look at or be near his Dad. DH actually called DS2 crazy today (to me, not to our son). I don't think DS2 is crazy, I think he is reacting to the nitpicks and critiscms and general negativity.

I know we are not supposed to ask if we should stay or go in these forums, but I feel so torn. I want to make things work, but it feels like DS2 is being harmed by staying. He is extremely smart, kind, thoughtful, and a great kid, but he thinks a lot of his dad's critisicms are right (for the record, a few are critisicsms of valid concerns, but most are expressed harshly or are blown out of proportion). Our older son (DS1) has a better relationship with his dad, but also has a lot of concerning traits and behaviors.

I guess the real answer is that I need to grow a backbone anf be more solid on boundaries for the kids and I.

[Meili]

  Kyanite

Maybe some of the discussions and tools on Co-parenting After the Split will help you deal with the stress between your husband and son. If nothing else, it's worth a look.

[Kyanite]

 Kyanite

Maybe some of the discussions and tools on Co-parenting After the Split will help you deal with the stress between your husband and son. If nothing else, it's worth a look.

Thank you, Meili! There are many great tools there that I can use. Thank you!