At the brink of the decision,very conflicted,15yr relationship with 3 young boys

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I've been with my husband for 15 years, married for 12, started a family 8 years ago, and now have 3 boys.

My husband exhibits most of the BPD traits.  They started surfacing right after our first son was born. 

I believe they always existed but because he had been receiving my undivided attention and I always strove to please him, they weren't surfacing in such a negative light.  We enjoyed each others' company and were spending every moment possible together.  When he'd want something (i.e. toys such as motorcycles, boats, jet skis, etc.), he'd typically get it because I always thought "if only we get him XXX, he will be happy".  As a result, we've been struggling with debt for the vast majority of our time together regardless of our healthy income. 

When our first son was born, my attention and energy was divided and some of our discretionary funds had to be reallocated.  This is where it all started going downhill.  He agrees, but he sees it as something we need to "fix" so he can get back the attention and my energy as opposed to it being necessary for him to adapt his expectations to family life with 3 boys. 

I probably don't need to reiterate the entire story as I'm sure it is a common one for those in this support group but I'll share some of the highlights and try to be brief, something I struggle with.  When I first listened to "Walking on Eggshells", I cried extensively, hit the nail on the head.  When I listened to "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me", it all made sense.  He exhibits basically everything except the self-mutiliation, though he has threatened suicide and states often how much easier it would be if he died in his sleep or in an accident.  Therefore, my story below won't reiterate the BPD traits specifically, but more give context to my situation.  That is where I need the support.

My energy and time are more then depleted with taking care of my boys, my job, and my HSP and Empath traits (which I only recently discovered and understood) coupled with living with a BPD.

My husband has always seemed to be searching for something.  We moved from VA to GA (where our first 2 sons were born), then back to VA, then to CO.  All for my work, but all at his encouragement.  It seems like we would get him what he wanted, but then it would be flawed and he'd want something else.  Now his expectations are unrealistic all together, both financial as well as simply because of our living situation with our boys and what time and energy they consume (rightfully so). 

Our boys are 8, 5, & 3 and they are wonderful, but they are boys, so they aren't always perfect.  My husband can, from my perspective, be very unreasonable in his expectations of their behavior from a maturity perspective given their ages.  This is a pain point for us.  I have surrendered to the fact that if my energy and time weren't so depleted that I could be a better parent from a discipline, etc. perspective and their behavior would most likely be reflective as such.  But, I don't have that capacity in me.  When I try to defend our boys behavior simply from the expectations perspective, he gets very upset and thinks I am babying them.  My empath traits certainly play a part in this.

Long story short, I don't have what it takes to meet his expectations and provide the life he (thinks) he wants.  I'm totally depleted with trying, and it is only getting worse. 

I caught him going out with a 20yr old gorgeous blonde female from work several weeks ago (he's almost 43).  He lied, denied, etc. and only admitted what he did when he realized he had the proof.  He still claims "I don't recall" to the things I don't have the proof for but swears that it was nothing more than providing the "unjudging" company that I don't, that it was purely plutonic and she has a boyfriend and she talked the entire time.  He says "he did nothing wrong" but his definition of "wrong" is only related to physical relations.  This is one of a couple of things related to other females I've come across in the last few years.  He always explained it away.  I always believed it "enough". 

But this last time, in response to something so miniscule, he was extraordinarly defensive, used "I don't recall" and "I don't remember" (which he does struggle with memory) for just about everything, and was very blaming on me.  Basically he won't take responsibility for anything anymore.  I almost feel like he has actually convincing himself that I am to blame for everything, including his inappropriate actions and behavior, even his spending, regardless of the context. 

I could go on and on.  I feel this unrelentless connection and pull towards him on a soul level.  I can handle being without a significant other, and on paper we are not compatible enough to have a successful relationship, but the heart and soul pull has kept me trying to make it work (by trying to make him happy).  But things he has said in the last few days, and the way he said it, have made me realize it isn't possible.  So, now, I am prepared to let that go.

The 2nd consideration that I had also hung on and tried so hard because I so deeply felt it was what was best for him.  Everything I've ever done was what I thought was in the best interest for him, even though in hindsight I was only hurting him by trying to help him so much.  But after him telling me what he needs and what I don't provide for him, especially the emphasis on this in the last several weeks, has made me realize I don't have the right to determine what is right for him (even though I don't think he has the ability).  I don't see how being without his family and boys on a daily basis could be right for him, but it's not my decision to make and I'm scared to death of what he would do once he realized what losing our family life together would mean, I'm not sure he will be able to emotionally handle it. Regardless, I now realize I need to let that go too, as scary as it is.

The 3rd consideration for me is the boys.  I find that I most cry when thinking about them.  They are so tied to their dad when he gives them the attention they want.  I so pains me to think about them not getting what they do by living with him on a daily basis.  But, after the discussion we had last night, I realize that I can provide them a much more fulfilling life if I am not enduring and being hindered by their father's issues from a relationship perspective.  So, I am not prepared to let go of that.

The 4th and final consideration was financial.  He makes about 1/2 of what he did at one point (another hit to his self esteem) which would be barely enough for a 1 bedroom apt in the area we live in.  He certainly couldn't afford it if he were solely responsible for credit card payments.  But, there has been a recent development that may help mitigate some of that constraint.  So it may no longer be an issue.  Would be a significant lifestyle change for him to not be supplemented by my income, but he could make it work well enough (though that is far from meaning he could handle a change and blow to his self esteem like that... .which I really worry about). 

My empath and HSP traits, coupled with his issues, it drains me, it changes me into someone I don't want to be and that I know deep down inside I am not.  It impedes not only my ability to be the wife he wants (or even that I should and want to be), but also my ability to function in general (it shuts me down mentally), my performance at work (which my family is financially dependent upon), my parenting skills (my patience is very much affected when I'm upset about something with my husband and, therefore, I turn into a mom I don't like), my friendships (basically I have no daily life friendships left), and my energy for anything). 

Maybe if I wasn't an HSP and and Empath I could handle it.  But I've had to accept that is who I am and I can't handle it. 

I was hoping we could both learn to understand each other and meet in the middle, feeling our love and soulmate connection is strong enough, but I've been actively trying to work on mitigating the impact of my HSP and Empath traits for 3 years now, and it isn't enough.  He'd need to recognize his issues, take ownership and responsibility, and work towards mitigating them, but it is now obvious that he won't. Even if he wanted to, I don't think he is capable.  I tried to help him for awhile, but I hold no credibility with him and even lost some in the process.  I know I shouldn't try to be his psychologist, but no one else was and I was doing all I could and just trying to help. 

I selected "Conflicted or Deciding About a Relationship" when joining this group.  This is where I'm at.  On paper, especially after typing all of this (which has barely scratched the surface), the decision seems extraordinarily clear on a mind level.  On a soul level, it felt intuitively right to keep trying (I've never failed at anything).  But, this morning, that changed.  It was a clarity that I had been asking for and it came to me.  I have not yet shared this with him.  Conversations with him are very challenging.  I have to very carefully select every word and the tone in which I say it and my body language when I say it.  It's exhausting and I usually fail.  It's also hard finding the time to have conversations like this, either the boys are around or I am too exhausted to talk effectively. 

With that, I'll end this prologue to this novel.  I've never actively participated in a support group like this, mostly because of time and mental energy supply.  But I will definitely read through others' posts and am very anxious to see read through the HSP sections (which was amazing to me when I saw them). 

Thanks to anyone who actually read all of this.  I send out light and love to all of you, as well as myself (I'm working on this one). 

[LoveAndLight]

I've been with my husband for 15 years, married for 12, started a family 8 years ago, and now have 3 boys.

My husband exhibits most of the BPD traits.  They started surfacing right after our first son was born. 

I believe they always existed but because he had been receiving my undivided attention and I always strove to please him, they weren't surfacing in such a negative light.  We enjoyed each others' company and were spending every moment possible together.  When he'd want something (i.e. toys such as motorcycles, boats, jet skis, etc.), he'd typically get it because I always thought "if only we get him XXX, he will be happy".  As a result, we've been struggling with debt for the vast majority of our time together regardless of our healthy income. 

When our first son was born, my attention and energy was divided and some of our discretionary funds had to be reallocated.  This is where it all started going downhill.  He agrees, but he sees it as something we need to "fix" so he can get back the attention and my energy as opposed to it being necessary for him to adapt his expectations to family life with 3 boys. 

I probably don't need to reiterate the entire story as I'm sure it is a common one for those in this support group but I'll share some of the highlights and try to be brief, something I struggle with.  When I first listened to "Walking on Eggshells", I cried extensively, hit the nail on the head.  When I listened to "I Hate You, Don't Leave Me", it all made sense.  He exhibits basically everything except the self-mutiliation, though he has threatened suicide and states often how much easier it would be if he died in his sleep or in an accident.  Therefore, my story below won't reiterate the BPD traits specifically, but more give context to my situation.  That is where I need the support.

My energy and time are more then depleted with taking care of my boys, my job, and my HSP and Empath traits (which I only recently discovered and understood) coupled with living with a BPD.

My husband has always seemed to be searching for something.  We moved from VA to GA (where our first 2 sons were born), then back to VA, then to CO.  All for my work, but all at his encouragement.  It seems like we would get him what he wanted, but then it would be flawed and he'd want something else.  Now his expectations are unrealistic all together, both financial as well as simply because of our living situation with our boys and what time and energy they consume (rightfully so). 

Our boys are 8, 5, & 3 and they are wonderful, but they are boys, so they aren't always perfect.  My husband can, from my perspective, be very unreasonable in his expectations of their behavior from a maturity perspective given their ages.  This is a pain point for us.  I have surrendered to the fact that if my energy and time weren't so depleted that I could be a better parent from a discipline, etc. perspective and their behavior would most likely be reflective as such.  But, I don't have that capacity in me.  When I try to defend our boys behavior simply from the expectations perspective, he gets very upset and thinks I am babying them.  My empath traits certainly play a part in this.

Long story short, I don't have what it takes to meet his expectations and provide the life he (thinks) he wants.  I'm totally depleted with trying, and it is only getting worse. 

I caught him going out with a 20yr old gorgeous blonde female from work several weeks ago (he's almost 43).  He lied, denied, etc. and only admitted what he did when he realized he had the proof.  He still claims "I don't recall" to the things I don't have the proof for but swears that it was nothing more than providing the "unjudging" company that I don't, that it was purely plutonic and she has a boyfriend and she talked the entire time.  He says "he did nothing wrong" but his definition of "wrong" is only related to physical relations.  This is one of a couple of things related to other females I've come across in the last few years.  He always explained it away.  I always believed it "enough". 

But this last time, in response to something so miniscule, he was extraordinarly defensive, used "I don't recall" and "I don't remember" (which he does struggle with memory) for just about everything, and was very blaming on me.  Basically he won't take responsibility for anything anymore.  I almost feel like he has actually convincing himself that I am to blame for everything, including his inappropriate actions and behavior, even his spending, regardless of the context. 

I could go on and on.  I feel this unrelentless connection and pull towards him on a soul level.  I can handle being without a significant other, and on paper we are not compatible enough to have a successful relationship, but the heart and soul pull has kept me trying to make it work (by trying to make him happy).  But things he has said in the last few days, and the way he said it, have made me realize it isn't possible.  So, now, I am prepared to let that go.

The 2nd consideration that I had also hung on and tried so hard because I so deeply felt it was what was best for him.  Everything I've ever done was what I thought was in the best interest for him, even though in hindsight I was only hurting him by trying to help him so much.  But after him telling me what he needs and what I don't provide for him, especially the emphasis on this in the last several weeks, has made me realize I don't have the right to determine what is right for him (even though I don't think he has the ability).  I don't see how being without his family and boys on a daily basis could be right for him, but it's not my decision to make and I'm scared to death of what he would do once he realized what losing our family life together would mean, I'm not sure he will be able to emotionally handle it. Regardless, I now realize I need to let that go too, as scary as it is.

The 3rd consideration for me is the boys.  I find that I most cry when thinking about them.  They are so tied to their dad when he gives them the attention they want.  I so pains me to think about them not getting what they do by living with him on a daily basis.  But, after the discussion we had last night, I realize that I can provide them a much more fulfilling life if I am not enduring and being hindered by their father's issues from a relationship perspective.  So, I am not prepared to let go of that.

The 4th and final consideration was financial.  He makes about 1/2 of what he did at one point (another hit to his self esteem) which would be barely enough for a 1 bedroom apt in the area we live in.  He certainly couldn't afford it if he were solely responsible for credit card payments.  But, there has been a recent development that may help mitigate some of that constraint.  So it may no longer be an issue.  Would be a significant lifestyle change for him to not be supplemented by my income, but he could make it work well enough (though that is far from meaning he could handle a change and blow to his self esteem like that... .which I really worry about). 

My empath and HSP traits, coupled with his issues, it drains me, it changes me into someone I don't want to be and that I know deep down inside I am not.  It impedes not only my ability to be the wife he wants (or even that I should and want to be), but also my ability to function in general (it shuts me down mentally), my performance at work (which my family is financially dependent upon), my parenting skills (my patience is very much affected when I'm upset about something with my husband and, therefore, I turn into a mom I don't like), my friendships (basically I have no daily life friendships left), and my energy for anything). 

Maybe if I wasn't an HSP and and Empath I could handle it.  But I've had to accept that is who I am and I can't handle it. 

I was hoping we could both learn to understand each other and meet in the middle, feeling our love and soulmate connection is strong enough, but I've been actively trying to work on mitigating the impact of my HSP and Empath traits for 3 years now, and it isn't enough.  He'd need to recognize his issues, take ownership and responsibility, and work towards mitigating them, but it is now obvious that he won't. Even if he wanted to, I don't think he is capable.  I tried to help him for awhile, but I hold no credibility with him and even lost some in the process.  I know I shouldn't try to be his psychologist, but no one else was and I was doing all I could and just trying to help. 

I selected "Conflicted or Deciding About a Relationship" when joining this group.  This is where I'm at.  On paper, especially after typing all of this (which has barely scratched the surface), the decision seems extraordinarily clear on a mind level.  On a soul level, it felt intuitively right to keep trying (I've never failed at anything).  But, this morning, that changed.  It was a clarity that I had been asking for and it came to me.  I have not yet shared this with him.  Conversations with him are very challenging.  I have to very carefully select every word and the tone in which I say it and my body language when I say it.  It's exhausting and I usually fail.  It's also hard finding the time to have conversations like this, either the boys are around or I am too exhausted to talk effectively. 

With that, I'll end this prologue to this novel.  I've never actively participated in a support group like this, mostly because of time and mental energy supply.  But I will definitely read through others' posts and am very anxious to see read through the HSP sections (which was amazing to me when I saw them). 

Thanks to anyone who actually read all of this.  I send out light and love to all of you, as well as myself (I'm working on this one). 

[Lucky Jim]

Hey L&L, Welcome!  Your story is quite familiar.  The place to start, I suggest, is with yourself and your needs, which are often neglected in the throes of a BPD r/s.  What are your gut feelings?  What would you like to see happen?  Many of us have been down road path before you, so you are not alone, believe me.  We get it when it comes to BPD and can help you find the right path for you.

LuckyJim

[vortex of confusion]

Hi LoveAndLight! 

Welcome to the forums. I am usually on the detaching forum. Your thread title caught my attention. I began my journey towards leaving at around the 15 year mark. I have 4 daughters. (8 to 15) I know how difficult it is to try to sort out all of the different issues involved.

Some questions that I had to answer honestly were:

What is best for the kids?
-For the longest time, I thought that it was best for the kids to live in an in tact home with both parents. I thought that he was a positive presence in their lives. I was completely deceiving myself. When you wrote about him having unrealistic expectations of the kids, I related to that. When the kids were younger, there was a lot of that but I could usually find ways around it. I don't know how your husband is. I found that he could be really positive and great with the kids when they were younger. Young kids tend to idolize parents to a degree. When the kids were young and playful and "easy", things weren't too bad. As they got older and started questioning more and challenging more, things got a lot worse. Toys for older kids are a lot more expensive than toys for the younger ones. The more the kids wanted and needed to have more grown up type interactions, the more it became a competition between him and the kids for my attention. I was being pulled in so many directions that I was tired and exhausted and couldn't think straight. When I did have any down time from the kids, ex was there and was either wanting me to dote on him or he was ignoring me. There was no middle ground. Ex has been out of the house for a year now. I was soo afraid that I would not be able to do the single parent thing on my own. It turns out that I have more time and space for myself now than I ever did when he was still there. I am not having to walking on eggshells and go around trying to shield the kids from him or play referee between him and the kids. In determining what is best for the kids, try to be objective about it. I was only seeing what I wanted to see rather than seeing how negative of an impact he was having on the kids.

I also had to ask myself if I could live with things as they were without any kind of changes. Ex is a sex addict. (I don't think he is necessarily a sex addict as much as he is on a never ended quest to numb out.) In the early days, it was porn. Then it was church. Then it was music. Then it was video games. Then it was other women. It is usually something. While he was chasing this other stuff, he was ignoring me and the kids. Or, if he wasn't outright ignoring us, he wasn't there when we needed him. It felt like everything was on his schedule and at his insistence. He could want something from the kids and I and if we didn't jump, he would get snotty. However, it was perfectly okay for him to put us off and tell us just a minute and then forget and then get upset with us for nagging if we tried to remind him of his promise. Like you, I did all sorts of things to try to help ex be happy. I have posted about some pretty disturbing stuff that I did to try to keep the marriage and make him happy. If you can feel yourself becoming somebody else, please, listen to that. It is a huge warning from your gut telling you that you need to do something different. I made the determination that I could NOT live with ex any longer. It took me several years to come out of the fog and realize that he wasn't going to change. Even if he changed, it probably wouldn't last.

I also had to stop looking at what was best for him. I had to realize that I had no friggin' clue what was best for him. I had turned into a parent for him rather than a partner. I was judging best for him based on what made him happy. The happier he was, the better the rest of our lives were. That led to me tying myself in knots to make him happy without regard to what was best for me or what made me happy. I completely lost myself.

I can relate to the financial considerations as well. He made the bulk of the money. I worked part time and did not contribute as much to the household as he did. I was afraid that if I asked him to leave that he wouldn't be able to support himself and still help me with the kids. A funny thing happened. He got laid off and was without work. He had some unemployment that he got for a while. I was pretty much supporting the kids on my own with some help from him. I managed just fine. When I kicked him out, he stayed with his mom for a while and then he found a friend that let him stay there. It wasn't nearly as scary as I had imagined it in my head.

I was also afraid that he would fall apart. He didn't fall apart. It turns out that I am the one that fell apart. He seemed to not really care as it gave him the freedom to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. He could chase other women and play his video games without having to worry about the me or the kids bothering him.

All in all, asking him to leave was the best for me. It took a lot of soul searching on my part and I had to work through a lot of stuff to get to that point. There are no short cuts. If you haven't had a chance yet, check out the links on the right side of this forum called "Choosing a path". There are no easy answers to any of this.

Do you have a support network? Does anybody in real life know what is going on?

[LoveAndLight]

Hi vortex of confusion!  WOW, I can't thank you enough for making the time and effort or reply as you did.  I am a fact finder so I really struggle with dealing in the ambiguous.  I need confirmation, and your reply helps a lot.  I've seen a few different psychologists in my time, and they have all told me either my husband needs to get help or I should leave the relationship.  But, even with as much as I talked, I never felt like they truly understood the situation and my feelings.  So, I stopped going.  Hearing from someone who has been in a very similar situation, especially with a similar children situation, really helps a lot.

The kids:  I had always thought it would get easier as the kids got older.  I'd expend less energy on caring for them as they could do it themselves and then have more energy for my husband.  I also thought as they matured their behavior would be less controversial for my husband and I.  I hadn't thought about your perspective.  I do totally relate to "there is no middle ground", either he wanted my full attention or he ignores me.  The whole splitting thing definitely applies here.  In regards to the single parent thing, I'm actually okay here.  Until fairly recently, I was acting as a single parent for the most part.  When his moods were bad, he'd retract from our lives.  He wouldn't leave, he'd just check out.  Also, he deals with chronic neck pain and when that kicks his mood suffers and he retracts from physical limitations.  No doubt a circular reference with stress and attitude towards everything.  Your suggestion about being objective is very applicable.  I feel like I am there now (not that I don't revert sometimes).

After I posted that I realized I forgot to mention the sex aspect.  I don't think he is an addict, but it is a huge focus for him.  I think because he identifies his self esteem and confidence with it.  No doubt our sex life suffers from all of this, which just perpetuates it all further.  And the lack of object permanence issue plays a big part.  We can have a great sexual encounter one day, but if we don't the next, his perspective of our sex life is it sucks.  His vice, the way he is researching and purchasing firearms.  He says it makes him feel "alive" and like he's accomplishing something.  He's become an avid enthusiast and collector.  Main problem is the spending has become behind my back.  He admits this is an issue, but he doesn't blame himself and try to work on it, he expects that I work on changing what is driving him to do it. 

Reading about how your ex didn't fall apart because of the freedom he has made me realize that maybe my husband has been indirectly asking for that for awhile.  I had assumed it was a test when he'd say "you have changed, we are no longer compatible" and the times he did start to walk out (even if just temporarily), and I intervened and he'd change his mind after our discussion.  All I've read about BPD says they are afraid of abandonment and would fall apart if felt abandoned.  That certainly skewed my view.  I'll be interested to see what his reaction is when I tell him I am now okay if we split, thinking it may be best for all.  Your story made me feel better about having that conversation.  I still personally can't understand why he wouldn't prefer to be with his sons daily, but maybe the quality of the time they do have together would be better if they weren't. 

I have spent the last 3 years soul searching and have had to work through a lot to get to this point.  I think I've needed it so if we do cross that line I will feel confident it was the right thing and not have regrets.  I see that now, as frustrating as it has been going through it. 

I will definitely check out those links, thank you for pointing them out.

I do not have a support network.  My parents know of the surface challenges.  They love him but fully support whatever decision I make because they don't like the suffering that they do see me go through, and I shield them a lot from it. 

Again, thank you!  I can see how this support group will make a huge difference in my being able to handle all of this and make good decisions.

Hi LoveAndLight! 

Welcome to the forums. I am usually on the detaching forum. Your thread title caught my attention. I began my journey towards leaving at around the 15 year mark. I have 4 daughters. (8 to 15) I know how difficult it is to try to sort out all of the different issues involved.

Some questions that I had to answer honestly were:

What is best for the kids?
-For the longest time, I thought that it was best for the kids to live in an in tact home with both parents. I thought that he was a positive presence in their lives. I was completely deceiving myself. When you wrote about him having unrealistic expectations of the kids, I related to that. When the kids were younger, there was a lot of that but I could usually find ways around it. I don't know how your husband is. I found that he could be really positive and great with the kids when they were younger. Young kids tend to idolize parents to a degree. When the kids were young and playful and "easy", things weren't too bad. As they got older and started questioning more and challenging more, things got a lot worse. Toys for older kids are a lot more expensive than toys for the younger ones. The more the kids wanted and needed to have more grown up type interactions, the more it became a competition between him and the kids for my attention. I was being pulled in so many directions that I was tired and exhausted and couldn't think straight. When I did have any down time from the kids, ex was there and was either wanting me to dote on him or he was ignoring me. There was no middle ground. Ex has been out of the house for a year now. I was soo afraid that I would not be able to do the single parent thing on my own. It turns out that I have more time and space for myself now than I ever did when he was still there. I am not having to walking on eggshells and go around trying to shield the kids from him or play referee between him and the kids. In determining what is best for the kids, try to be objective about it. I was only seeing what I wanted to see rather than seeing how negative of an impact he was having on the kids.

I also had to ask myself if I could live with things as they were without any kind of changes. Ex is a sex addict. (I don't think he is necessarily a sex addict as much as he is on a never ended quest to numb out.) In the early days, it was porn. Then it was church. Then it was music. Then it was video games. Then it was other women. It is usually something. While he was chasing this other stuff, he was ignoring me and the kids. Or, if he wasn't outright ignoring us, he wasn't there when we needed him. It felt like everything was on his schedule and at his insistence. He could want something from the kids and I and if we didn't jump, he would get snotty. However, it was perfectly okay for him to put us off and tell us just a minute and then forget and then get upset with us for nagging if we tried to remind him of his promise. Like you, I did all sorts of things to try to help ex be happy. I have posted about some pretty disturbing stuff that I did to try to keep the marriage and make him happy. If you can feel yourself becoming somebody else, please, listen to that. It is a huge warning from your gut telling you that you need to do something different. I made the determination that I could NOT live with ex any longer. It took me several years to come out of the fog and realize that he wasn't going to change. Even if he changed, it probably wouldn't last.

I also had to stop looking at what was best for him. I had to realize that I had no friggin' clue what was best for him. I had turned into a parent for him rather than a partner. I was judging best for him based on what made him happy. The happier he was, the better the rest of our lives were. That led to me tying myself in knots to make him happy without regard to what was best for me or what made me happy. I completely lost myself.

I can relate to the financial considerations as well. He made the bulk of the money. I worked part time and did not contribute as much to the household as he did. I was afraid that if I asked him to leave that he wouldn't be able to support himself and still help me with the kids. A funny thing happened. He got laid off and was without work. He had some unemployment that he got for a while. I was pretty much supporting the kids on my own with some help from him. I managed just fine. When I kicked him out, he stayed with his mom for a while and then he found a friend that let him stay there. It wasn't nearly as scary as I had imagined it in my head.

I was also afraid that he would fall apart. He didn't fall apart. It turns out that I am the one that fell apart. He seemed to not really care as it gave him the freedom to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. He could chase other women and play his video games without having to worry about the me or the kids bothering him.

All in all, asking him to leave was the best for me. It took a lot of soul searching on my part and I had to work through a lot of stuff to get to that point. There are no short cuts. If you haven't had a chance yet, check out the links on the right side of this forum called "Choosing a path". There are no easy answers to any of this.

Do you have a support network? Does anybody in real life know what is going on?

[DaddyBear77]

Welcome to the group, LoveAndLight!

I am also very new to the boards but I can say that this is by far the most supportive place I've ever found. The folks here are fantastically helpful and encouraging and it's been a huge help in just the few weeks I've posted. Please stick around!

I'd also like to say what I'm sure a LOT of people would say, and that is, I could easily copy and paste your story as my own, it's so familiar to me.

The "toys" that my wife "needs" are jewelry, exotic vacations, and expensive spa/beauty/cosmetic treatments. In appropriate financial circumstances, and before we had a child, some of this was completely appropriate, but to an extreme, they've pushed us to the brink of financial disaster.

The "affair" (of which I think you're seeing early signs of) ended up mushrooming into something quite spectacular - several years ago she obsessed over an ex boyfriend to the point that she left me to move across the country to be with him. The relationship with the ex boyfriend failed after about a year. She spend another year or so dating other people. Finally after two and a half years of not getting what she wanted, she came back. And how it played out was really twisted - I ended up asking HER to come back. The reasons were multiple, but mostly it was because I thought it would be best for HER. I didn't think at all about what would be best for me. Well, ok, I thought about it, but completely ignored it.

And last but FAR from the least is my daughter, whom I love with all my heart and would do anything for. I struggle daily with the idea of separating / divorcing / staying. When I think about leaving, I think about how incredibly different her idea is from mine
 - she thinks that she'll get sole custody, I will visit, and I will work for the rest of my life paying the mortgage, alimony and child support while she stays home and "raises the kids."
- I think about what most likely will be reality - we get joint custody, we sell the house, we each live in an apartment at first, we both deal with periods of time when we don't see our daughter, and alimony and child support only go so far.

And when you put those together and realize the shock it will be to her system, I stop dead in my tracks and freeze, not making any moves to improve the situation.

Anyway, I'm not sure I've conveyed it very clearly, but to me this seems all to familiar, so be sure you know that you're not alone.

Welcome to the group!

DB

[vortex of confusion]

WOW, I can't thank you enough for making the time and effort or reply as you did.  I am a fact finder so I really struggle with dealing in the ambiguous.  I need confirmation, and your reply helps a lot.  I've seen a few different psychologists in my time, and they have all told me either my husband needs to get help or I should leave the relationship.  But, even with as much as I talked, I never felt like they truly understood the situation and my feelings.  So, I stopped going.  Hearing from someone who has been in a very similar situation, especially with a similar children situation, really helps a lot.

I can really relate to this too. I know that I have struggled with trying to accurately portray the situation. When people have said that he needed help or would see him as a horrible person, I would defend him and then think that I must have misrepresented the situation. Or, I felt like they were trying to tell me how I should feel. If I didn't want to bolt and kick him out, that somehow meant that I was defective or in denial. Like you, I tend to be a fact finder. I like to deal with things in a practical and logical manner and I felt like some of the things that I was being told to feel were illogical and didn't make sense to me. I didn't want to make a permanent decision that would have a lasting impact on my family without trying to sort out my feelings and figure out what was fact and what was feeling.

The kids:  I had always thought it would get easier as the kids got older.  I'd expend less energy on caring for them as they could do it themselves and then have more energy for my husband.

I thought this too. I made it through the toddler years and the younger years by telling myself that it would get better and easier as they became more independent and needed me less. It turns out that they needed me more because I was acting as a buffer between them and dad. And, the other problem was that when I did have more energy for my husband, he wasn't there. He was checked out and the push/pull got a lot worse. Since I was no longer focused on the kids as much, I was wanting more connection with him and he wasn't there.

I also thought as they matured their behavior would be less controversial for my husband and I.

This is what I thought as well. My oldest is almost 16. Her perspective is that dad tried to keep her a toddler. She has fond memories of the fun stuff that they would do when she was little. Telling stories and being silly and obnoxious is fun and cute to a young child. To a growing adolescent, it is annoying and insulting.

The oldest told me that it was very confusing for her to have one parent that encouraged her to do more while having another parent that treated her like a toddler. Ex didn't grow with the kids. He subconsciously tried to keep them at that cute toddler parent idolizing stage. Also, it became more controversial as the kids aged because it is quite natural for older kids to try to test the boundaries and push buttons. At one point, the oldest made a game out of pushing his buttons. It was super frustrating for me because I would try to get her to knock it off. I would try to talk to him and get him to understand basic child development so that he could set firm boundaries. Instead, it ended up being a situation where he acted more like an older, resentful sibling rather than a parent.

In regards to the single parent thing, I'm actually okay here.  Until fairly recently, I was acting as a single parent for the most part.

I didn't realize that I was okay. I had been led to believe that I needed him. I couldn't do it alone. One of my friends pointed out that now, I am a single parent to 4 kids. Before, I was single parent to 5 kids. (4 kids and an overgrown man child)

When his moods were bad, he'd retract from our lives.  He wouldn't leave, he'd just check out.

That sort of stuff is very painful for a kid to handle. There was one person that I talked to that asked me, "If you feel rejected and hurt when he does that to YOU, imagine how your kids must feel when he does it to them? He is their parent." I broke down and it hurt so bad for me to think that they were feeling what I was feeling on a larger scale.

Your suggestion about being objective is very applicable.  I feel like I am there now (not that I don't revert sometimes).

It is difficult to be objective when you have multiple things in conflict. There was my value around marriage and family that was conflicting with objective fact. If ex does indeed have a mental illness, then wouldn't that make me MORE obligated to stay and find a way to make things work? If I ended the long term marriage, wouldn't I be abandoning him and running out on him? How could I end the marriage and still live my values? I felt like ending things would be a failure on my part. I had to work through those feelings and reconcile all of the conflicting things. Many of the conflicts were between objective facts. I value marriage. I value family. I wanted to give my kids an in tact home. All of those things were in direct conflict with the objective fact that exes behavior was not good for me or the kids. All of that directly conflicted with the objective fact that his behavior was having a negative impact on the kids.

After I posted that I realized I forgot to mention the sex aspect.  I don't think he is an addict, but it is a huge focus for him.  I think because he identifies his self esteem and confidence with it.

There is a good article on this site about that. I can't find it at the moment. I will post it later if I can figure out where it is in my bookmarks. :-)

Reading about how your ex didn't fall apart because of the freedom he has made me realize that maybe my husband has been indirectly asking for that for awhile.  I had assumed it was a test when he'd say "you have changed, we are no longer compatible" and the times he did start to walk out (even if just temporarily), and I intervened and he'd change his mind after our discussion.

It is classic push/pull. On the day that I invited him to leave, I could tell that he was waiting for me to tell him not to go. So many times before, I had intervened. There would be talk of divorce. He threatened suicide once or twice. Every single time, I would step in and save him and back down. That last time, I didn't back down. He didn't fall apart at all. In my opinion and with a lot of hindsight, I think his behavior had been saying that the responsibility of having a family was too much for him. I was so afraid that having him leave would be devastating to him. I actually had a lot of fears about ending things. Most of my fears did NOT come to pass. It is easy for me to talk about it now. At the time, I could not express how debilitating my fears were. What if I kicked him out and he fell apart? What if I kicked him out and he hurt himself? What if? What if? What if? I kept myself paralyzed with fear.  

All I've read about BPD says they are afraid of abandonment and would fall apart if felt abandoned.  That certainly skewed my view.

What "fall apart" looks like varies from person to person. In all honesty, I was hoping that it would wake him up and get him to change and actually want to be a part of the family. I was not expecting him to go on with his life, bury himself in his games, and go chasing other women. Part of me knew that it would likely happen. I just didn't want to believe it. I wanted to believe that he would fall apart. If he fell apart, that meant that he really did love me and the kids as much as he claimed to. I know, I did some serious mental gymnastics.

I'll be interested to see what his reaction is when I tell him I am now okay if we split, thinking it may be best for all.  Your story made me feel better about having that conversation.  I still personally can't understand why he wouldn't prefer to be with his sons daily, but maybe the quality of the time they do have together would be better if they weren't. 

I don't understand anything about my ex any more. I have stopped trying to understand him. To me, it makes no sense that he wasn't more upset. It makes no sense to me that he couldn't/wouldn't make some small changes to improve things so that we could keep our family in tact. Heck, I even agreed to an open relationship as long as he could be more respectful to me and more available for family time. Oh the things I did to try to make things better.

I have spent the last 3 years soul searching and have had to work through a lot to get to this point.  I think I've needed it so if we do cross that line I will feel confident it was the right thing and not have regrets.  I see that now, as frustrating as it has been going through it. 

I can say that I don't have any regrets about ending the relationship. My biggest regrets are the the things that I did to try to hold onto the relationship. The decision to end a long term marriage with kids involved is NOT easy by any stretch of the imagination. There are times when I occasionally feel like I might have been able to make things work if I could have been more patient and could have let go of my resentment. Are you feeling any resentment? For me, the resentment that I was feeling towards the end was pretty toxic and it seemed to interfere with my ability to relate to him at all.

I do not have a support network.  My parents know of the surface challenges.  They love him but fully support whatever decision I make because they don't like the suffering that they do see me go through, and I shield them a lot from it. 

That is a very tough position to be in. I now realize that part of the difficulty that I was having making the decision to leave was due to the fact that I had become so isolated. As a mom with young kids, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to work and be with your kids and have a social life. The one time that I tried to go on a mom's night out, I got a lecture about when to be home, blah, blah, blah. It wasn't worth it. My life centered around work, my kids, and my husband. I talked to my family and that was about it. I had a few friends online that I had made in some of my online mommy groups. Aside from that, I didn't really have anyone. It was very lonely and very scary at times. It felt like everything fell on my shoulders and it was up to me to make all of the decisions. It felt soul crushing at times because I knew that whatever decision I made would have a huge impact on my kids.

[LoveAndLight]

Wow, I am floored by how your responses and the way you communicate is SO similar to me!  Everything resonates so much!

I can really relate to this too. I know that I have struggled with trying to accurately portray the situation. When people have said that he needed help or would see him as a horrible person, I would defend him and then think that I must have misrepresented the situation. Or, I felt like they were trying to tell me how I should feel. If I didn't want to bolt and kick him out, that somehow meant that I was defective or in denial. Like you, I tend to be a fact finder. I like to deal with things in a practical and logical manner and I felt like some of the things that I was being told to feel were illogical and didn't make sense to me. I didn't want to make a permanent decision that would have a lasting impact on my family without trying to sort out my feelings and figure out what was fact and what was feeling.

I got really tired of dumping all of my thoughts for 40 minutes in a session only to have the therapist listen.  I wanted action.  They helped me make connections (i.e. learning about boundaries, Empaths and some spiritual suggestions), but of the last 2 I saw, one basically looked at me with the "you are in denial" eyes and the last one basically all but told me should couldn't help me.  While I didn't disagree with them, it's not the help I needed.
I can really relate to this too. I know that I have struggled with trying to accurately portray the situation. When people have said that he needed help or would see him as a horrible person, I would defend him and then think that I must have misrepresented the situation. Or, I felt like they were trying to tell me how I should feel. If I didn't want to bolt and kick him out, that somehow meant that I was defective or in denial. Like you, I tend to be a fact finder. I like to deal with things in a practical and logical manner and I felt like some of the things that I was being told to feel were illogical and didn't make sense to me. I didn't want to make a permanent decision that would have a lasting impact on my family without trying to sort out my feelings and figure out what was fact and what was feeling.

I thought this too. I made it through the toddler years and the younger years by telling myself that it would get better and easier as they became more independent and needed me less. It turns out that they needed me more because I was acting as a buffer between them and dad. And, the other problem was that when I did have more energy for my husband, he wasn't there. He was checked out and the push/pull got a lot worse. Since I was no longer focused on the kids as much, I was wanting more connection with him and he wasn't there.

I can see this.  I already act as a buffer, though I feel like, for some reason, this has actually gotten better.  The problem is now when I do act as a buffer, my 8 year old is mature and intelligent enough to pick up on it, so I have to be really careful.  I don't want them not thinking their dad should not be respected or is "wrong", but I also need to protect them.  My roles as a supportive wife, supportive co-parent, and a protective mother I often feel are in contradiction with each other and this throws me into turmoil.  I now air on the side of protective mother, and I try to shield my husband from awareness of that as much as I can, but when he sees it, he resents it.  But, my priority is the kids.

The one difference I see in us, at least at this time, is my husband is always there wanting my attention so I have a hard time seeing this go away if/when my time does free up.  I encourage him to do things on his own or with the kids without me, which would actually give me a break, but he doesn't want that.  I think my attention and friendship is validation for him.

But, my oldest told me that it was very confusing for her to have one parent that encouraged her to do more while having another parent that treated her like a toddler.

I can see that from BPD behavior.  My husband is the opposite.  He expects them to grow up and mature and develop faster.  This is a huge issue with me and a continual point of contention.  I tried to get him to understand basic child development, asking him to spend some of his multiple hours a day on the computer or phone researching that rather than firearms.  He's dabbled, but always defaults to "we need a 3rd party to come in and tell us what to do with our kids", which makes no sense to me. I used to always think of my husband's behavior as an older, resentful sibling, still do on occasion... .that one really resonates.  He's actually become more of a parent lately, but not consistently.

I didn't realize that I was okay. I had been led to believe that I needed him. I couldn't do it alone. One of my friends pointed out that now, I am a single parent to 4 kids. Before, I was single parent to 5 kids. (4 kids and an overgrown man child)

Yes, yes, yes.  His behavior often reminds me of a child.  Actually, some of the things he does and says are the exact things he tells our kids not to do.  But he doesn't see it at all.  I've pointed it out, but of course it doesn't go well and he disagrees.  I actually have our close friends and family tell me he is my 4th child, they often say it in front of him.  He takes is in jest, but both I and the one saying it see it more literally, as do I.  I used to do this a lot before I understood any of this, it was actually very bad for him and our relationship.  I see that now and wish I could have taken it back.  It's been good since I've backed off from being his parent (though he still tells me sometimes I act like it).

That sort of stuff is very painful for a kid to handle. There was one person that I talked to that asked me, "If you feel rejected and hurt when he does that to YOU, imagine how your kids must feel when he does it to them? He is their parent." I broke down and it hurt so bad for me to think that they were feeling what I was feeling on a larger scale.

It is difficult to be objective when you have multiple things in conflict. There was my value around marriage and family that was conflicting with objective fact. If ex does indeed have a mental illness, then wouldn't that make me MORE obligated to stay and find a way to make things work? If I ended the long term marriage, wouldn't I be abandoning him and running out on him? How could I end the marriage and still live my values? I felt like ending things would be a failure on my part. I had to work through those feelings and reconcile all of the conflicting things. Many of the conflicts were between objective facts. I value marriage. I value family. I wanted to give my kids an in tact home. All of those things were in direct conflict with the objective fact that exes behavior was not good for me or the kids. All of that directly conflicted with the objective fact that his behavior was having a negative impact on the kids.

Yes, yes, yes. All those things.  My failure was definitely a huge factor for me up to one point.  I've never failed at anything I really wanted to achieve.  I've since let that go.  I definitely had the desire to help and "fix" him and didn't want to give up on him.  My last therapist said "but why would you give up on yourself"... .that one resonated too.  My problem is I truly love and care very deeply for him, that pull is still very strong for me.  It had dominated all of the other considerations until, literally, 2 days ago.

There is a good article on this site about that. I can't find it at the moment. I will post it later if I can figure out where it is in my bookmarks. :-)

I will definitely look for it.  I think I understand it but love clarity and validation.

It is classic push/pull. On the day that I invited him to leave, I could tell that he was waiting for me to tell him not to go. So many times before, I had intervened. There would be talk of divorce. He threatened suicide once or twice. Every single time, I would step in and save him and back down. That last time, I didn't back down. He didn't fall apart at all. In my opinion and with a lot of hindsight, I think his behavior had been saying that the responsibility of having a family was too much for him. I was so afraid that having him leave would be devastating to him. I actually had a lot of fears about ending things. Most of my fears did NOT come to pass. It is easy for me to talk about it now. At the time, I could not express how debilitating my fears were. What if I kicked him out and he fell apart? What if I kicked him out and he hurt himself? What if? What if? What if? I kept myself paralyzed with fear.  

Yes, yes, yes... .ALL of these things.  Literally, you just stated all of the things that go through my head when considering what the discussion will look like and where we will be next.  We talk about divorce now.  He has threatened suicide, though it has been awhile.  I like what you said about "his behavior had been saying that the responsibility of having a family was too much for him".  That one really resonates and I hadn't thought about it that way.  He loves our boys so much, but the responsibility is another thing.  He goes through phases where he is very proactively responsible and helpful (he's actually been in one for the last 2 days... .this is how it goes), but in the grand scheme of things, having that family is what he feels is depriving him of all of the things he wants.

What "fall apart" looks like varies from person to person. In all honesty, I was hoping that it would wake him up and get him to change and actually want to be a part of the family. I was not expecting him to go on with his life, bury himself in his games, and go chasing other women. Part of me knew that it would likely happen. I just didn't want to believe it. I wanted to believe that he would fall apart. If he fell apart, that meant that he really did love me and the kids as much as he claimed to. I know, I did some serious mental gymnastics.

Yes, yes, yes.  I'd comment further, but my thoughts exactly mimic yours, only on this side of a breakup.

I don't understand anything about my ex any more. I have stopped trying to understand him. To me, it makes no sense that he wasn't more upset. It makes no sense to me that he couldn't/wouldn't make some small changes to improve things so that we could keep our family in tact. Heck, I even agreed to an open relationship as long as he could be more respectful to me and more available for family time. Oh the things I did to try to make things better.

Yes,  I had always thought to myself, "how can he be so irrational and dillusional".  I still get in turmoil about if my reality and rationale is the issue.  But, in the end it doesn't matter.  If we aren't compatible, we aren't compatible.  Bottom line.

I can say that I don't have any regrets about ending the relationship. My biggest regrets are the the things that I did to try to hold onto the relationship. The decision to end a long term marriage with kids involved is NOT easy by any stretch of the imagination. There are times when I occasionally feel like I might have been able to make things work if I could have been more patient and could have let go of my resentment. Are you feeling any resentment? For me, the resentment that I was feeling towards the end was pretty toxic and it seemed to interfere with my ability to relate to him at all.

I feel a TON of resentment, and he feels a TON of resentment towards me.  He has conveyed this quite clearly lately which is one of the things that I seem to now be getting and has gotten me over the hump of acceptance of the relationship ending.  It is very toxic on both ends.  We both acknowledge it and try to work on it, but it inevitably creeps up. As of a few weeks ago, I feel I can't at all relate to him either.  It's odd, it's like I can't even "see" him because he is so different from the man I knew.  This could totally by my perception vs. a real change in him, but it is like an energy has shifted.  

That is a very tough position to be in. I now realize that part of the difficulty that I was having making the decision to leave was due to the fact that I had become so isolated. As a mom with young kids, there simply aren't enough hours in the day to work and be with your kids and have a social life. The one time that I tried to go on a mom's night out, I got a lecture about when to be home, blah, blah, blah. It wasn't worth it. My life centered around work, my kids, and my husband. I talked to my family and that was about it. I had a few friends online that I had made in some of my online mommy groups. Aside from that, I didn't really have anyone. It was very lonely and very scary at times. It felt like everything fell on my shoulders and it was up to me to make all of the decisions. It felt soul crushing at times because I knew that whatever decision I made would have a huge impact on my kids.

I am similarly isolated, exactly as  you described.  Being an HSP it has been ok with me.  But I can see how it has not helped me suffering.  Just talking to you and the others who have responded has been so enlightening and empowering, I can see if I had this all along how it would have helped a lot.

[LoveAndLight]

Welcome to the group, LoveAndLight!

Thank you!  This is a big step for me, I appreciate the support!

I'd also like to say what I'm sure a LOT of people would say, and that is, I could easily copy and paste your story as my own, it's so familiar to me.

Though I would never wish anything bad on anyone, it is SO comforting to hear and see this.  I feel so much relief and support already, and just started.  I'm also excited to think that I may be able to provide support for others too.

The "toys" that my wife "needs" are jewelry, exotic vacations, and expensive spa/beauty/cosmetic treatments. In appropriate financial circumstances, and before we had a child, some of this was completely appropriate, but to an extreme, they've pushed us to the brink of financial disaster.

Yes, I can totally relate.  It was motorcycles, jet skis, boats, cars, trucks, etc., which I enjoyed as well (though I wouldn't have purchased to such extravagance if I wasn't striving for his happiness), but those started having to dwindle away when we had kids.  We were at the brink of financial disaster, we are still digging out from under it.

The "affair" (of which I think you're seeing early signs of)

Wow, this was very jolting, but very grounding as well.  Actually, it made me feel better to hear you say "early signs" vs. "he's in one now".  I think it was an emotional affair.  He claims he didn't talk much, which I can see given she is a 20yr old girl with a 43 year old man, but that almost bothers me more.  He said he didn't even know if she realized he was married.  I'd be relieved he didn't talk badly about me or our relationship, but it bothers me he didn't talk about us or the kids at all.  Though, he claims it wasn't intentional hiding, he "thinks" he wore his wedding ring (he most often hasn't worn it ever, though he is now).  To him, he "did nothing wrong" because it wasn't physical.  But I don't see it that way, though consequences would have been different if I had proof it was physical (which I don't think it was). 

Several years ago she obsessed over an ex boyfriend

This sounded familiar too.  About 3 years ago he reconnected with an ex-girlfriend 2 states away.  Lots of suspicious "emotional" stuff going on that I found out about.  There was opportunity for physical too, but I have no idea.  But, he always "explained it away".  I think reconnecting w an ex and getting her attention was validating to is ego given she had broken up with him (about 15 years ago) and hurt him badly. 

Finally after two and a half years of not getting what she wanted, she came back. And how it played out was really twisted - I ended up asking HER to come back. The reasons were multiple, but mostly it was because I thought it would be best for HER. I didn't think at all about what would be best for me. Well, ok, I thought about it, but completely ignored it.

Funny you say this and I can totally understand it.  I have actually had intuition/gut feelings that we would separate and end up back together at some point.  I have NO idea how I'd react to that scenario.  I can see me welcoming him back but really struggling to get past any relationships he may have had in between.  But when I have those visions of him coming back, it is similar to as you said... .for the benefit of him and the kids and the pleasure I would get out of having our family back together, not because of my desire to have the relationship with him.  I can totally see me ignoring what was best for me as well.  That is what we do and most likely why we get and stay in relationships such as these.  I feel you here for sure.

And last but FAR from the least is my daughter, whom I love with all my heart and would do anything for.
I struggle daily with the idea of separating / divorcing / staying. When I think about leaving, I think about how incredibly different her idea is from mine
 - she thinks that she'll get sole custody, I will visit, and I will work for the rest of my life paying the mortgage, alimony and child support while she stays home and "raises the kids."
- I think about what most likely will be reality - we get joint custody, we sell the house, we each live in an apartment at first, we both deal with periods of time when we don't see our daughter, and alimony and child support only go so far.

Yes, I understand this one.  I am lucky in that I am the mom and naturally would be the main caretaker, which is what he would want anyway.  Our nuance is that my income is significantly higher which is also fortunate given I will be able to support a mortgage, childcare, etc.  But, I do worry about his ability to manage his own income and spending and not end up bankrupt.  I know I shouldn't worry, but I can totally see me "rescuing" him here to maintain his ability to comfortably be a dad.

And when you put those together and realize the shock it will be to her system, I stop dead in my tracks and freeze, not making any moves to improve the situation.

I can relate to this too.  Because of the financial situation and the total inability for us to support two households, I stopped dead in my tracks.  But, a situation is brewing that may help us with that.  But, it still slows me down.  It will be a lifestyle adjustment for him for sure and given he wants things for us that we can't afford now, it will be a total shock with his lifestyle is impacted the other way significantly.  I worry this will be such a huge blow to his ego he will lose it.  He already makes less then he has in the past due to job changes due to our moves for my job changes (which he promoted us taking more than I).

Anyway, I'm not sure I've conveyed it very clearly, but to me this seems all to familiar, so be sure you know that you're not alone.

You did and I SO appreciate it.  I haven't completely comprehended all of the guidelines of this forum yet so I am cautious in what I say, but know my heart is with you and all of us who are trying so hard to do what is right for our loved ones and ourselves.   

[vortex of confusion]

but of the last 2 I saw, one basically looked at me with the "you are in denial" eyes

I had one flat out tell me, "You are being emotionally, sexually, (and some other stuff) abused. You are in denial." When I wouldn't listen to her, she reported me to CPS.

I was in denial about a lot of things. The problem is that I needed a safe place to work through that stuff without feeling judged. It felt like I was re-experiencing stuff with ex or my family of origin. . .Listen to what we tell you. If you don't accept what we tell you, then YOU are the problem and we can't help you. In some ways, it felt like I was being traumatized by them because they weren't helping me find my own voice. They wanted me to listen to them and accept what they said without question. It was too much for me to handle.

And, the other thing to keep in mind is that you kind of have to be in denial in order to keep living with him and keep the relationship. There is no way I could continue to live with him if I accepted the truth of what had transpired. It was a survival mechanism.

I encourage him to do things on his own or with the kids without me, which would actually give me a break, but he doesn't want that.  

When is the last time you had a break? When is the last time he spend any time with the kids without you? Is there any way that you can send him on a vacation or you take a vacation? One of my family members recommended that I take a week vacation by myself. That was the beginning of me waking up. It took a couple years after that for me to get to the point of kicking him out. I bring that up because these  kinds of decisions don't happen over night. You say that you are at the brink of a decision. Can you find a way to get some time and space for you so that you don't feel so pressured to make a permanent decision right now? Are there intermediate things that you can do just to help you get some distance?

He's dabbled, but always defaults to "we need a 3rd party to come in and tell us what to do with our kids", which makes no sense to me. I used to always think of my husband's behavior as an older, resentful sibling, still do on occasion... .that one really resonates.  He's actually become more of a parent lately, but not consistently.

If two people disagree with how to approach parenting, it might not hurt to have a third party help the two of you identify blind spots. I have suggested that ex take some parenting classes. It sounds like there are some major disagreements about how to approach parenting. In theory, ex and I agreed on how to approach parenting. The problem is that he was unable to put that theory into practice.

I am similarly isolated, exactly as  you described.  Being an HSP it has been ok with me.  But I can see how it has not helped me suffering.  Just talking to you and the others who have responded has been so enlightening and empowering, I can see if I had this all along how it would have helped a lot.

I was okay with the isolation for much of the same reasons. I have come to see that the isolation was very detrimental to me. It was self-defeating and it kept me in denial. Find ways to interact with others even if it is just on these forums. I was okay with the isolation because it kept me in denial and that is what I needed in order to survive and maintain a somewhat peaceful home. The more I came out of denial, the harder it was for me to be nice and bite my tongue. I can see where I caused a lot of conflict towards the end. I couldn't accept reality AND continue to be nice. The more I talked to others and took myself out of isolation, the more I was able to see just how ridiculous it had all become.

[LoveAndLight]

Thank you for the continued dialogue.  It is amazing how in sync your comments and questions are.

When I wouldn't listen to her, she reported me to CPS.

Wow, ... .wow.  I don't even know what to say.

The problem is that I needed a safe place to work through that stuff without feeling judged.

Exactly, nail on the head.

And, the other thing to keep in mind is that you kind of have to be in denial in order to keep living with him and keep the relationship. There is no way I could continue to live with him if I accepted the truth of what had transpired. It was a survival mechanism.

I see this.  At one point, I had actually decided that I would prefer to not know if he had or was having an affair of any sort so I could keep our family together with some sort of peace for me.  That ended the next time I got some hint of deception in regards to him spending time with someone else behind my back.  It set in me an absolute rage.  :)eception, real or perceived, is certainly my trigger and I am an extraordinarily analytical fact finder so in the absence of facts I can create scenarios in my mind which seem so probable they may as well be reality.  This is very toxic for us.  It is what set this latest revelation in motion, not the concerns of deception I had, but his reaction and response to them.

When is the last time you had a break?

About a month ago, I actually spent 3 nights away for work related training.  It was the first time I had been away in 2 years and, before that, the first time in so many years I don't remember.  

When is the last time he spend any time with the kids without you?

This has actually gotten better recently.  He still prefers it not be without me but he is more conscious of the kids needing his individual attention, and he is actually enjoying it.  It isn't consistent, but more consistent lately.  But that is more based on my increased ability on maintaining boundaries and not letting him talk me into situations I'm not up for... .which causes conflict.

Honestly, we are in a "phase" where he has been a lot more involved in the past few weeks but, again, not consistently.  But, more than historically.  

Is there any way that you can send him on a vacation or you take a vacation? I bring that up because these  kinds of decisions don't happen over night. You say that you are at the brink of a decision. Can you find a way to get some time and space for you so that you don't feel so pressured to make a permanent decision right now? Are there intermediate things that you can do just to help you get some distance?

Funny you say this.  I was on the brink of a decision on Monday as soon as my mind became not only accepting of the letting go but also insistent on it.  I am a "fixer" and want to act immediately if I think I have a solution.  That is where I was at through Tuesday and only hadn't talked to him b/c circumstances didn't lend the time or energy.  Then yesterday (Weds), I was in the "let me share my "accepting" thoughts with him but not be "insistent" because I'm not sure I am "insistent" at the moment".  This is the cycle, right?  While I still felt it was probably where we'd end up, I had switched to feeling like we could put it on the table then sit with it and let things play out for awhile (most likely until the next ball dropped).  And then last night, literally about an hour before I was going to sit down with him, I had a gut feeling that I should hold onto sharing my thoughts for a few weeks based on this... .

I am actually traveling back to where we moved from 2.5 years ago to take care of some personal things.  I leave next Thursday and will be gone for 8 days.  I am taking my oldest son with me, it will be a special time for both of us to be together.  We will be back for the weekend, then my BPDh (learning the acronyms) is traveling for the following Mon-Fri.  That will give me a break, from him at least.  Also, the female I've spoken of that he had spent time with is at the location he is traveling to.  The last time he went back he was very cognizant of needing to totally avoid her and stay in contact enough for me to feel comfortable he was doing so (I know, there is a multitude of issues behind that).  Quite frankly, I decided that given I will be gone for 8 days taking care of things that will require his assistance from a distance and lots of interaction between us, then he will be gone for 5 days, and given where he is traveling and who is there and I didn't want to add the noice of him to feeling he was okay to see her (even if he didn't, it would drive me crazy thinking he may), that I would sit on it until that time period was over.  

It is very refreshing and relieving (though I didn't realize I needed relief) to hear you suggest exactly where my mind had landed.  

BTW, he's been on vacations without me, with my full support.  He tends to be all about them and then try to back out last minute.  I've all but forced him to not back out b/c I wanted him to have the time with his friends, thinking it would help his self esteem and sense of identity.  

If two people disagree with how to approach parenting, it might not hurt to have a third party help the two of you identify blind spots.

You are right, that would be a very practical approach.  Honestly, I just didn't feel like I had the energy.  We've talked about it in a counseling session or two some time ago, but it literally ends up being that classic "person with BPD downloads all the blame on the nonBPD" and given I see it so differently, even if I try to scratch the surface, we are out of time on the session and then he decides he doesn't want to keep seeing the therapist a session or two later.  I'm now at the place where I'm willing to try a third-party parenting advisor, but at this point I refuse to be the one to find the third party and set it up.  I've done that multiple times in the past with counselors for he and us, but none of them lasted for the classical BPD reasons.  If he doesn't like what they have to say, he will just tell me it's the wrong person.  He did ask our pediatrician some things during an appointment once, which I remind him of the answers when applicable, but we'd need several more hours with them to get through enough to make a difference.  Maybe I should try that again.  I'll ask their suggestion when I'm there in a few weeks.

Find ways to interact with others even if it is just on these forums.

Yes, I think I'll stick to this for awhile.  No expectations on me.  Being in a situation like this naturally leads to less socializing and communicating with friends for all the reasons.  My biggest thing has been energy and not wanting to interact with others when I didn't feel I had enough positive to add to the interaction and I didn't want to bring negativity or have to work to avoid surfacing what was really going on with me.  I only have 1 friend I've opened up to about this but when we moved 2.5years ago, we stopped talking. She had worked with me so we found time during work hours without interfering with family demands, the only way I could have made it work at the time.  For various reasons I haven't confided in any other friends, not to that degree anyway.  But, I just scheduled dinner with 2 friends when I go on the trip, one of which was the one I had confided in.  I've made the conscious decision (for now) to not sugar coat things.  I won't dwell on them by any means, but I won't pretend all is hunky dory either.  That seems healthy, right? We will see if I keep to that when the time comes.

The more I came out of denial, the harder it was for me to be nice and bite my tongue. I can see where I caused a lot of conflict towards the end. I couldn't accept reality AND continue to be nice.

Yes, this is totally me.  I read the article on this site about "validation" yesterday.  Wow, it really hit me.  I always knew he relied on me for validation and always felt the degree to which he did rely on me was unrealistic and unnecessary (he's a great successful guy from so many perspectives).  I still do.  But after reading that article I realize how invalidating I have been and what a major, unfair impact that was having on him.  I don't know that reasonable levels of validation and invalidation would make our relationship manageable, realistically most likely not, but I'm now in the phase of "maybe what he has been saying about how I make him feel has more meat to it then I had thought" and "let's see if I am more conscious about not being invalidating (I feel I already try hard at being validating) if it make a difference".  Overall, maybe not, but I bet it will trigger him less.  I don't know.  I think I just want to spend some time with that conscious thought and effort in my mind and see if it makes things manageable enough to reconsider giving up.  

Like we said before, fact finders.  Need enough info to make sure I'm making the right decisions.  Because I am a fact finder and reader and researcher, I seem to keep lifting up stones and uncovering things to consider and "try".  I'm hoping that cycle ends one way or another at some point with a clarity on the path we should take.

Does that make sense at all?

[vortex of confusion]

Like we said before, fact finders.  Need enough info to make sure I'm making the right decisions.  Because I am a fact finder and reader and researcher, I seem to keep lifting up stones and uncovering things to consider and "try".  I'm hoping that cycle ends one way or another at some point with a clarity on the path we should take.

How has being a fact finder been working for you? I ask that because it didn't work very well for me. At some point, I had to stop focusing so much on facts and logic look more at how I was feeling.

There is a link  about mindfulness and wise mind: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

At some point, it is important to find that balance between emotions and logic. I was focusing on facts and logic to block out my emotions. That wasn't helpful to me at all.

If you want the cycle to end, it is up to you to end it by changing how you approach the relationship. If you can't find a way to see things differently and react differently, then you can end it. Don't expect your partner to end the cycle. It is up to you to make a decision and stick with it. Have you seen the "Take inventory" link over on the side? It really helps to journal and write this stuff down so you can come back to it and add to it as things come up.

[LoveAndLight]

How has being a fact finder been working for you? I ask that because it didn't work very well for me. At some point, I had to stop focusing so much on facts and logic look more at how I was feeling.

Not well at all.  But, I didn't realize that until fairly recently.  If I continue to focus on facts and logic, we will never survive as a couple for sure.  It is so who I am and has always been very beneficial for me personally and career wise, so I never realized it could be harmful and even unreasonable.  I'm trying hard now to let go some, some days are easier then others.  I'm usually just fine until something triggers suspicion of deception, regardless of how minor, then I lose control.  But I now see that and am trying to control it from a more rational standpoint. My ability to stop focusing on facts and look more at how I am feeling has brought me to where I am today. 

There is a link  about mindfulness and wise mind: https://bpdfamily.com/content/triggering-and-mindfulness-and-wise-mind

I actually started my mindfulness practices just over 3 years ago.  Without it I wouldn't still be sane at all.  It has been a process but I feel like over the last few weeks I have reached the pinnacle of combining all of "the things". Now I just have to be consistent in practice.  I am totally aware of when I am not being mindful, but I still have times I struggle at controlling it, which so frustrates me about myself.  It's not logical be not be able to be mindful when you realize you aren't (-:  Actually, it is very logical b/c it is science ().  Did you find mindfulness helped you?

I was focusing on facts and logic to block out my emotions. That wasn't helpful to me at all.

Yes, I see that now too.  Literally after the last time I tried to get facts and what I was given just wasn't logical to me.  But that doesn't mean it isn't fact.  After the last time we had a discussion the incorporated this struggle, I realized it was truly a dead end and massively toxic for us.  I realized I needed to decide if I can emotionally handle not having facts and logic.  That is where I am at now.  Sounds like you did the same.  I'm still trying to figure this one out.

If you want the cycle to end, it is up to you to end it by changing how you approach the relationship. If you can't find a way to see things differently and react differently, then you can end it. Don't expect your partner to end the cycle.

You are VERY right, and I know it.  I feel like I've reached a pinnacle of clarity in the last couple of days.  I'm going to give myself some time as discussed yesterday and as you suggested.  Then the next time something happens between us I'll really observe my emotions, responses, thoughts, etc. from this more conscious viewpoint.  Things have been better lately, I feel because of where I am now.  But I also know they have been better for him for various external reasons.  It will happen again and once it does I think it will just bring more clarity. 

It is up to you to make a decision and stick with it. Have you seen the "Take inventory" link over on the side? It really helps to journal and write this stuff down so you can come back to it and add to it as things come up.

You are right.  I have not seen that link but will visit it very shortly.  Sounds like an exercise my last therapist gave me that I never completed, though I have thought about the value it would bring many times.  Thanks for pointing that out to me.  I will definitely do that.  My problem is when things are good, the bad doesn't seem so real to me and I'm afraid any assessment I do isn't going to be very accurate and I'll downplay it.  But when things are bad, I am done.  Did you feel that way? 

[vortex of confusion]

Not well at all.  But, I didn't realize that until fairly recently.  If I continue to focus on facts and logic, we will never survive as a couple for sure.  It is so who I am and has always been very beneficial for me personally and career wise, so I never realized it could be harmful and even unreasonable.  I'm trying hard now to let go some, some days are easier then others.  I'm usually just fine until something triggers suspicion of deception, regardless of how minor, then I lose control.  But I now see that and am trying to control it from a more rational standpoint.

I survived childhood by being logical. I could keep my feelings bottled up and make choices based on "If I do this, then X will happen." I made a lot of choices in my marriage that I thought were logical. To me, it made sense for me to push my feelings aside so that I could find ways to help ex be happy. Logic said that if he was happy, then he would be nicer to me and the kids and that would make things more calm and peaceful at home. I could only push my feelings down so far before they started biting me in the but. When you push stuff down so far, it is easy for almost everything to become a trigger. When he was being nice, that triggered suspicion. When he was being a jerk, that triggered suspicion. I thought I had no reason to mistrust him. I thought that I just had to find a way to trust him more so I could treat him better.

Um, my feelings of mistrust were perfectly valid. I wasn't making up reasons to mistrust him. I had a rather lengthy list of the times that he violated my trust. My feelings were very valid and I was not giving voice to them.

My ability to stop focusing on facts and look more at how I am feeling has brought me to where I am today. 

I have had a long journey with this. It has been rather difficult because there are times when all of those pent up feelings become overwhelming. There is stuff that happened at the beginning of our marriage 20 years ago that I never really dealt with and now all of those feelings are coming up to bite me in the butt. Ex didn't acknowledge that I might be hurt over some of those things. The focus was on him and his problems. How it impacted me was not acknowledged by him or by me. I thought I was strong enough to push it aside and support him. I recognize that is what I was trained to do as a kid. Whatever was going on didn't impact me, I was supposed to stand by as a silent observer and support everyone else. I wasn't allowed to talk about how I felt about seeing some things. Somebody else had it worse than I did so I was supposed to be grateful that it didn't happen to me.

I am totally aware of when I am not being mindful, but I still have times I struggle at controlling it, which so frustrates me about myself.  It's not logical be not be able to be mindful when you realize you aren't (-:  Actually, it is very logical b/c it is science ().  Did you find mindfulness helped you?

I am scratching my head about how to respond to this. I feel like it has been a mixed bag for me because I am trying to be more mindful of my own feelings and reactions. I am trying NOT to shut down. In the process, I recognize that I don't feel like I am able to be as in control as I would like to be. Some of the feelings that I am allowing myself to think about and feel are very overwhelming at times. It is figuring out how to deal with things in a way that does not make things worse.

Literally after the last time I tried to get facts and what I was given just wasn't logical to me.  But that doesn't mean it isn't fact. 

Sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.  A lot of times, you have to check in with your gut feelings. I had a lot of gut feelings that I absolutely ignored. I wanted facts to disprove things. I wanted to dismiss my feelings as not valid so that I could continue to live in denial.

I realized I needed to decide if I can emotionally handle not having facts and logic.  That is where I am at now.  Sounds like you did the same.  I'm still trying to figure this one out.

The bottom line is that there is a lack of trust. Think about somebody that you trust explicitly. Do you find yourself questioning them or demanding facts and logic? My best friend can tell me something and I believe her. She has given me no reason to question her or demand facts and logic.

You are right.  I have not seen that link but will visit it very shortly.  Sounds like an exercise my last therapist gave me that I never completed, though I have thought about the value it would bring many times.  Thanks for pointing that out to me.  I will definitely do that.  My problem is when things are good, the bad doesn't seem so real to me and I'm afraid any assessment I do isn't going to be very accurate and I'll downplay it.  But when things are bad, I am done.  Did you feel that way? 

I absolutely did feel that way at times. I think that is why it is important to write things down during the good times and bad times. That way, you can have a more complete picture of what is going on. I can't find the link at the moment but there are a lot of lessons on the different boards that have a treasure trove of information. The one that I was thinking about has stuff about magical thinking. One of the things that I used to do was focus on the words without looking at the associated actions. I wanted to hold onto the words because he was telling me what I wanted to hear. I was confused because his actions and his words did NOT align.

When times were good, it becomes too easy to forget the bad times because I would think stuff like, "Maybe this time it will stick. Maybe this time he will actually follow through." I managed to keep myself entrenched in the relationship because I would do just that. I would tell myself stuff like, "Oh, it will get better when <fill in the blank> happens." I could fill in the blank with just about anything including the kids getting older, changing jobs, me being better, or pretty much anything. I had to radically accept that things weren't really going to change. That is who ex was/is.

[LoveAndLight]

vortex of confusion:
I have very little time but I didn't want to not respond going into the weekend.  I typically don't get an private time on the weekends home with the kids, etc.  Certainly not time where I can devote the mental energy and focus something like this takes.  However, I wanted to let thank you so much for telling me so much about you and your situation.  I, as most of us nons are I am sure, do not like talking about myself so it feels very odd to do so here.  Also, I looked at "Taking Inventory" and then went to the beginning of that series, wow, I could spend days reading through that stuff and kinda feel like I should and need to.  Not realistic though so I need to figure it out.  I've don't lots of research on BPD and nothing is new, but reinforcement certainly helps.  Ok, I need to run to grab my son, I will respond in more detail to your last response when I can.  All is still very much resonating with me.