Do I have value?

[Woolspinner2000]

Several times this past week I have thought about posting, and I have avoided it. My emotions have been too raw, I've struggled to get my feet back under me, and I feel so lost. Although this post has to do with trying-to-survive-my-marriage, I will post it here on my home board because the reality is that I am trying to sort through the entanglement from what I learned in my FOO with an uBPDm and an enabling Dad, and how it translates to the beliefs which cause me to feel as if I have little to no value in my marriage.

What is it that I tucked away in my belief system that encourages me to stick it out in a very unhealthy marriage? I saw DV all the years I lived at home, and like so many here, I experienced it as a child too, from both my parents. There's been no DV in my marriage. What there has been is the continuation of the emotional and verbal abuse. I've tried to turn my awareness from the spiritual abuse (if that is what I would appropriately call it) and say it is just me; and the monetary abusive control, but events over the past weekend have brought it all to the front with a full force.

DH spilled the beans last weekend that he took a VERY large sum of our investment money (in the tens of thousands of dollars) and invested in something I definitely would not have. It is only by accident that I found out when I looked at the checking statement and found the balance had drastically dropped, unbeknownst to me. When confronted, he said that he deliberately chose to deceive me. I suppose that is some of what knocked my feet out from under me. After 32 years of marriage you are breaking the trust we had built? I find it to be a fracture that will not easily be repaired. How can I trust him again? Last summer he did something similar but at least it was not lied about. I guess it was withheld though until I asked about where that money went.

I've been able to see through much of the manipulation he tried when he told me last weekend about what he did. He has told me it is my fault that he deceived me because I am scared to invest. I have chosen to invest with him for all these years, even though I was often uncomfortable with his choices. He also informed me that I am not allowed to have an opinion different than his if it disapproves of what he is doing. How is that an opinion but merely agreeing with everything he says or does? It is the recent choices this past year and a half which have caused the gravest concern. I have been in counseling the past few years and become more aware of the dysfunctional relationship we have, and I have begun to speak up. That is probably the hardest part for him.

Throughout this deception and the previous years, he has pulled out the biblical card of being the spiritual head and that he has a right to make these choices without my knowledge or permission, and now he says that since Adam in the garden was passive, he will not be passive anymore. When I asked how many other men in our church would act this way to their wives, he said all of the men were too afraid to do what should be done. Last summer he had begrudgingly agreed to give me an equal amount to invest that equaled his investment, since we could not agree on investment choices and risk, so this past week I moved most of the remaining money into a safe account with my name on it, per our agreement. Of course he is quite mad and does not remember the agreement, but it was there between us. I felt that I had to protect it for our future from the unsafe choices he is making. Three years ago I would never have been able to do this.

Many of my friends wonder why I stay, and I wonder as well. It is not healthy this marriage, yet here I am. Sometimes I wonder if I don't think I deserve to be treated this way. Factually I know I do not. Subconsciously is another matter. Why do I stay? I pray and hope for the best, but here I am and this is not good. How often I heard the voice of my uBPDm saying that I was selfish and only thought of myself. Am I doing that again? But her words were lies and not true. Standing up for oneself is not wrong. It is healthy. Dad abused her for years. She abused him. Do I allow the abuse because I saw it happen and then believed I am not worth defending and standing up for myself?

Many of us here at C&H struggle with who we are as a person, what is our value we wonder? And I ask myself the same thing. My DH says in his own way that I have no value to him. He has told me over and over verbally through the years that he doesn't need me. Okay, my co-dependency kicks in, and I feel crushed. I know now that I am very co-dependent but have been working hard on it for a few years, and it is not as bad as it used to be. There is still work to be done though.

So I find myself wandering, hoping to eventually get to a place of responding and not reacting, of letting my emotions settle. Seems as if there should be consequences of some sort, or of me learning some boundary to set up. What would that be? This is one of the hardest places I've ever been. I think DH wants to pretend that all is well, but it is not.

Wools

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey Woolspinner2000:   

I'm so sorry for what's going on.  I can understand how devastating this is for you.

My DH says in his own way that I have no value to him. He has told me over and over verbally through the years that he doesn't need me. . .There's been no DV in my marriage. What there has been is the continuation of the emotional and verbal abuse.

When confronted, he said that he deliberately chose to deceive me. I suppose that is some of what knocked my feet out from under me. After 32 years of marriage you are breaking the trust we had built? I find it to be a fracture that will not easily be repaired. How can I trust him again?

Throughout this deception and the previous years, he has pulled out the biblical card of being the spiritual head and that he has a right to make these choices without my knowledge or permission, and now he says that since Adam in the garden was passive, he will not be passive anymore. When I asked how many other men in our church would act this way to their wives, he said all of the men were too afraid to do what should be done.

Trust is important in a relationship.  You say that you had built trust, over 32 years.  How long has the trust been in decline?  Saying he choose to deceive you is bothersome. Is he escalating use of "the biblical card"?  I have to agree with you, in that I'm not on board with that biblical logic of the man ruling the wife.  I know there are biblical passages that are used to support that logic.  I think that that principle can be implemented successfully or poorly, depending on the people involved and the attitude of the husband.

Some people get hung up on a few bible passages or principles, like "the man rules".  On the other side of the coin, they don't honor other important bible passages.  It's not fair to pick and choose what benefits you and not honor the rest.

Could it be helpful to seek some counseling from someone within your church, in regard to biblical application?

Is there any pattern to the emotional and verbal abuse?  Is it something that has gotten worse over the years?  Does it follow any pattern?  I'm sure there are a few bible passages that deal with abuse.  You don't want to get into flinging bible passages back and forth at each other.  Perhaps there can be a broad discussion about selective bible passage enforcement (with the pastor or other church counselor)?

He has told me it is my fault that he deceived me because I am scared to invest. He also informed me that I am not allowed to have an opinion different than his if it disapproves of what he is doing.
 
I've been able to see through much of the manipulation he tried when he told me last weekend about what he did. He has told me it is my fault that he deceived me because I am scared to invest. I have chosen to invest with him for all these years, even though I was often uncomfortable with his choices. He also informed me that I am not allowed to have an opinion different than his if it disapproves of what he is doing.

Might it help for both of you to visit a reputable financial adviser together? 

One of the most neutral things to do is to go as a couple to a neutral financial adviser.  This person won't have any commissions or costs tied to any specific investments (stock, bonds, ETF's , mutual funds, etc).  They will either charge an hourly fee to interview you and your husband, discuss your level of risk you are willing to take, your future plans, retirement plans, etc.  You either go away with recommendations and then purchase and monitor your own investments, or you can sign up with a financial adviser to have them manage your account for a fee (in accordance with the plan and the level of risk you are willing to take).

Do you feel confident in you knowledge about investments?  Not that you need to be an expert by any means. It's good to have enough knowledge to understand the basics and know enough to not get scammed or taken advantage of by some broker looking to sell investments to people not for your benefit, but for the broker's benefit.

Has your husband shared profit or loss data for prior investments?  Is he acting on his own, with an online account or is he using a financial adviser or a stockbroker?

Many of my friends wonder why I stay, and I wonder as well. It is not healthy this marriage, yet here I am. Sometimes I wonder if I don't think I deserve to be treated this way. Factually I know I do not. Subconsciously is another matter. Why do I stay? I pray and hope for the best, but here I am and this is not good.

Have you discussed any of this in therapy yet?  We are here for you Wools 

[Harri]

Hi Wools.  I am so sorry for the difficulties you are facing now.  I don't have experience with marriage or enough with relationships to advise you or even have a reliable opinion in those areas.  But, as you know, I am in the same struggle with trying to find my value and worth.  It is a difficult place to be and then to add the pain of your current situation?  No wonder you feel a bit lost. 

I imagine being in a marriage and having your husband tell you both by his words and actions that you have no value to him must be very painful.  The thing is though that he, as you said, is very manipulative and emotionally and verbally abusive.  That has to do with him and nothing at all to do with you Wools.   Yes, logically you get that and emotionally it is a whole different thing.  it is all jumbled up in remnants of your childhood and those ingrained falsehoods told to you by emotionally damaged and abusive parents. 

I am not sure how to get to what is tucked away in your belief system that keeps you in this relationship.  For me, it would involve allowing myself to feel anger and breaking through the fear I have surrounding this issue.  Do you think fear is involved?  Fear of divorce?  Being alone?  Being on your own?  Fear of feeling and expressing the depth of your anger and hurt?  I don't know if any of those apply, I'm just poking around a bit. 

What your husband is doing is very hurtful.  I understand that you want to get to the point of being able to respond rather than react and I am proud of you for taking steps to protect the remaining funds.  That is excellent and I would imagine it was hard to do.  Have you ever been able to tell him No, I am not worthless?  Not so much to convince him or change him but to hear yourself stick up for you?  Is that something that would help you or would it make your situation worse?  Again, just poking around a bit hoping to find something that resonates.

You do have value.  You are valuable for you.  Please do not let his inability to see you to define you and your role in your marriage.  To say such a thing to you is cruel.  Not that it makes it any better, but I think it is projection and tells you far more about him than anything to do with you.  Truly.  Yes, I know I am repeating myself but some things need to be repeated over and over again.  Can you see the projection?

I am glad you chose to post and seek support here.  As you know, there are some great minds here that can help you sort things through.  I am willing to walk along with you and poke around a bit and think things through with you. 

      

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey Wools:    
How are you doing?

Do I have value?

I recognize that you have tons of value!  You are a compassionate person, with a good sense of humor.  Your input on this website adds great value to many here.  I hear that your friends see you as valuable to them. 

When we are unfairly criticized and told we don't have value, it can be hard to recognize our value.  Sometime, it can be helpful to list what we like about ourselves.  Can you recognize the value that others see in you?  What do you like about yourself? 

What is it that I tucked away in my belief system that encourages me to stick it out in a very unhealthy marriage?

Do you feel that it may relate to you religious beliefs (perhaps that you shouldn't get divorced]?  I think that verbal and emotional abuse is likely an acceptable reason for divorce within your church.

Do you feel that if you get a divorce, that you would feel like a failure?  Perhaps you feel at fault that you couldn't fix your marriage?  There was nothing you could do to change your childhood.  Do you feel that you can make up for your childhood by hanging in there to try and fix your marriage?
Does something about the verbal and emotional abuse seem familiar from your childhood?

Many of us here at C&H struggle with who we are as a person, what is our value we wonder? And I ask myself the same thing. My DH says in his own way that I have no value to him. He has told me over and over verbally through the years that he doesn't need me 

Do you think he really means you have no value to him, or is he trying to hurt you?  I'm thinking that if you stopped doing many of the things you do for him, he would have to admit to the value you add.

• Sometimes I wonder if I don't think I deserve to be treated this way. Factually I know I do not. Subconsciously is another matter.
• Why do I stay? 
• Do I allow the abuse because I saw it happen and then believed I am not worth defending and standing up for myself?

I pray and hope for the best, but here I am and this is not good.  How often I heard the voice of my uBPDm saying that I was selfish and only thought of myself. Am I doing that again? But her words were lies and not true. Standing up for oneself is not wrong. It is healthy. Dad abused her for years. She abused him. Do I allow the abuse because I saw it happen and then believed I am not worth defending and standing up for myself?

You have done a good job of asking yourself some hard questions that have to be difficult for you to answer.  Is there some order to answering the questions that might make answering them easier for you? 

Could sorting out the biblical issues be a first step that could lead to sorting out the rest?  Just wondering that if you can reach a final conclusion that by the collective guidelines of your religion,  your husband is being abusive.  Perhaps you already know the answer, but just need to recognize it and know that it is okay for you to get a divorce, if that is your final decision?

[Notwendy]

Hey Wools  

Yes you have worth, but first, you have to believe it. I understand your situation both with your parents and with your H. Growing up with my FOO, I learned that my self worth depended on making my mother happy. If only I tried hard enough, she would be happy, and then my parents would love me. Considering my own value wasn't in the equation. As kids, we are desperate to be loved by our parents. Occasionally, if I was compliant, mother would be happy. However, one mistake and it was unforgivable. My mother told me I was selfish, and also that I was unlovable. Those are hard messages to undo.

When I was dating, I had no self esteem. I was also co-dependent but that was my normal. You know we attract people who match us in some way, and I did as well. I have been on the relationship board too. I can't say that my H has BPD, but he has enough personality traits to match my own issues, and we had similar problems to those of my parents, albeit in a lesser degree.

I also didn't understand abuse. I thought it meant the abuser hated you and beat you. But I grew up with parents who both loved me and emotionally abused me. So did my H. He was cruel to me for many years, and I believed it was my fault. Why wouldn't I? That was what I was told growing up when BPD mother was angry at me.

What happened- basically, I hit bottom- emotional burn out. I had nothing left emotionally to give him- I didn't even have it for myself. I mustered up enough of it to raise the kids. I made a rational decision- if we divorced, he would get the kids half the time and pay a sitter when he went to work. Well, I decided I could be that sitter. I would rather stay and raise the kids, but I talked myself into seeing it as a job. I also got counseling and later participated in 12 step co-dependency groups to deal with the issues in both my FOO and marriage.

What changed for my H? Once I stopped focusing on trying to please him, waiting, hoping he would notice and just taking care of me and the kids, something shifted in him too. But first, it had to start with me. I will say that I have self worth now. Nobody abuses me. Because they know that I won't put up with it. I had to learn this though- it was a lot of work over time. The most helpful to me was the 12 steps co-dependency work with a sponsor. We even used the AA steps which was strange to me at first as I don't drink much, but they speak to co-dependency and self worth.

Faith got me through this too, and you can use yours to help you gain self worth. The 12 steps includes a higher power- as one understands that- so it is universal, but there is a lot of spirituality in the 12 step literature. One idea is that, if you were made in the image of God, equal as everyone else, to deny your self worth is to deny the part of you that God felt was worthy.

I think one error in interpreting Christianity is that Jesus seemed to be self sacrificing and denied himself. But you aren't Jesus. You are you. Jesus had a special mission for mankind that is unique to Jesus. However, every human is given the ability to make the world a better place in their own way and you have your own unique value. The Bible gives you a moral code to follow. It does not say to sacrifice yourself for others. You can honor the infinite value that is given to you by God.

As to your H. I struggled with this idea with "honoring parents" but if I was co-dependent and enabling to them, I wasn't honoring their potential for being good people. I was allowing them to behave poorly towards me and that isn't being kind or good. So ironically, it could be more Biblically sound to not enable people if enabling them isn't for their better good. Allowing your H to be an unethical leader of the family may be less OK than standing up to him. I would ask your pastor to help you with these concepts, but seeing this in this way helped me.

Last is motivation. My H has his own motivation and choices and I had to accept that I couldn't know how this would turn out for us. When I changed my co-dependent habits- my H didn't like it, but there was no going back to the patterns we had. Then the choice was up to him- to accept the new relationship dynamics, or not- and then he could leave himself. Personally, I didn't want to leave when the kids were small. I was willing to see this out. Yet, I had to also risk the relationship- that he had the choice to leave too. He chose not to.

All relationships are different- I don't know if your H will change or not, or if he will stay or leave, but I do know that you can change and it starts by knowing your self worth.

[Woolspinner2000]

It was helpful for me to post and hear each response-thank you. It has gotten the wheels turning just a bit, pondering and thinking.

NN, thank you for your kind and concerned responses. I am doing okay today. It helped to get back into a work week and to be busy outside of home. When I am home there is opportunity for interaction with DH that I'm not too desirous of currently. He comes and asks more and more questions... but I'll talk about that a little later perhaps. First to answer some of your questions.

The trust we've had has been pretty solid until last summer. I've had concerns about his decisions for about 4 years now, due to wondering if there were dementia like symptoms going on. There was some mental testing done but they said he did not have dementia. The decisions he makes now are so different than many years ago, but his character traits are much the same, just more intense and hard and single minded, including the theological aspect which has gotten much worse. Once he sold the apartment building we had owned for 10 years last January, that is when things shifted in the finances/investment category. As long as the money was invested it was not a problem, but even the last 2 years of ownership (within these past 4 years) there were things going on that were questionable, as if he wasn't thinking right or spending money with smart thinking. For example he would not hire someone to repair the trashed apartment because it was too expensive, yet he took almost a year to repair it by himself, with lost rent and spending nearly as much money as he would have had he hired someone. He is 16 years older than me (I married young and had no idea of how my childhood played a role in my choice), and he will be 70 next month.

My faith is and has been a sustainer for me, so when someone uses it as a method of control, it becomes a concern. He cannot be reasoned with. He is the ultimate authority on each and every subject he has studied, and he has spent thousands of hours studying various passages or books of the Bible, even writing books on them. He does not consider other works as references, only his interpretation of the Bible. Sadly that leaves him in a place where he cannot be open to anyone else's opinion but his own. He desperately craves the input of others but usually only makes small adjustments to what he has written after talking with them because he sees them as being wrong. Therefore I can offer no other thoughts or verses when he talks about headship and his authority because he always has an argument against it or another verse to dispute what I (or anyone else) would say. My T has encouraged me over and over to not engage him but to listen as I can and not take it in. I try, sometimes I am successful, other times I fall right back into the trap of trying to engage and respond to his myriad of questions. They become so confusing.

I spoke with our pastor who just resigned, and he asked who there is that DH respects that I could approach at our church. I am being very honest when I say there is no one. The one man who is slightly possible did nothing to help me when I asked before. We have gone to marriage counseling a few times, but he wants to work on things ourselves. I go once a week usually to see my T, thank goodness for his balance and help! I try so hard to make it work. We all understand that here at C&H.

Your question about a financial adviser reminded me that we did go to see a financial planner last spring after the building sold. It was helpful, and I agreed that after we got a handle on our out of control spending, and a couple other things that I don't remember, then I would consider buying another building for investment. He only heard the last part and the next day was out to a couple of banks seeking loans. He wanted to mortgage our home for a 3rd time (immediately after my dad died), and I would not sign papers. He is retired, and old enough that we cannot recoup any lost finances. The meeting with the planner was helpful and we began to get a handle on our spending and cut back a lot. Interestingly enough it was his credit card that dropped the most. After that initial meeting though, he would not go back because it was a waste of resources he said, and anytime the idea came up, he told me how bad it would've been to go with the financial adviser with our investments. Nonetheless, it was a helpful reminder to me when you asked, because it told me that I did do some positive things to try and help, showing me that I wasn't afraid of everything. There were necessary steps to be taken first which the financial planner pointed out as well. I am not knowledgeable on my own about investments but do have someone who is helping me.

Last summer he took another large amount of $ and invested in property that he said would be up and running and making us a great investment within a few months. It still sits, and after lots of red tape, he cannot get a building permit for repairs so far. He wanted a yes from me on that too, but I could not agree that it was a sound investment. I've spent a lot of time kicking myself for being so against what he keeps asking for. For this particular investment, he told me that I was standing in the way of God's will for him. (I did not take that on as my own!)

To answer your question as to if I've spoken with my T yet about the situation, he was out sick last week so I've only spoken to him on the phone briefly.

I am so wordy!
Wools

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Harri! 

Thank you also for your kindness and care. It really means so much to me to have my family here who understands.

The thing is though that he, as you said, is very manipulative and emotionally and verbally abusive. That has to do with him and nothing at all to do with you Wools.   Yes, logically you get that and emotionally it is a whole different thing.  it is all jumbled up in remnants of your childhood and those ingrained falsehoods told to you by emotionally damaged and abusive parents. 

Ah, you hit the nail on the head here. I know all this factually, that it has to do with him, yet I feel as if I am crying inside from the hurt and pain of this devaluing. To not be valued? To be told that I have done nothing to help us earn all that we have? It is not true! My blood sweat and tears are just as invested as his. The reality is that my value is NOT determined by DH. My value is in who God created me to be, and that is beyond value! I think the journey from our heads to our hearts can sometimes be the longest, because it is hard for the truths to penetrate into our souls. I don't fully believe this yet, but I am trying to believe it.

Your questions about fear are good. As I pondered this possibility, I had these memory flashbacks which involved my uBPDm, and the absolute terror I felt of her when I was a little child. I realize it is a fear of the power of control over me. My inner children were hiding in fear at these memory flashes because they all lived it and knew her reach penetrated into every nook and cranny of my life, with sure retaliation for going against her. There is some of that intense fear there I believe, because DH exhibits similar traits, and then my fear projects itself onto the situation. I am not as afraid as I used to be, but sometimes the fear hides underneath, subconsciously creeping out when you didn't even know it was still there. These darn layers of stuff from my childhood.

Yes, I am afraid of divorce. My mom left my dad. I've never wanted to repeat that. I think our kids will understand, but how would I make it on my own financially? I think I could but I really don't know. And I have no idea of the depth of my anger and hurt yet. Many sighs. So much still locked up inside.

The funny thing about saying I have value to him... .he would agree that I do and has said so. Another time he argues that I don't. His actions speak much louder than words. It is much like an uBPD parent, the chaotic confusion of not knowing which statement is true because both come out of the same person. He will say that the Bible says he's to love me and lay down his life for me, then he turns and does what I've described before. The confusion is maddening, and I really need to not listen to him. But I so desperately want to have his approval, and therein is the rub. We keep working at the approval and love we wanted from our disordered parent and translate it over into the rest of our lives.

Notwendy, I'll work on my response to you tomorrow since I've already been writing and writing! Thank you, and your words are very encouraging. Funny that you were talking about co-dependency because I have ordered a book and plan to start an online workshop on co-dependency this week if I can. I'm very glad you told me about your experience. More hopefully tomorrow.

 
Wools

[Basenji]

We keep working at the approval and love we wanted from our disordered parent and translate it over into the rest of our lives.

Wools, I'm pretty new to this board, but I have already read quite a number of your posts, which amply extol (in my estimation) a person richly endowed with compassion, insight, intelligence, and sensitivity. There is evidently so much to value, so much to share, and so much to celebrate in such a gifted person such as yourself!  

Having recently come out of a relationship myself I look back and only retrospectively appreciate quite how much my childhood stuff was being inadvertently triggered by my partner and I had NO idea how extensively - conversely I was triggering stuff in her!

In the event, the solution was to separate whilst we each dealt with our respective residual baggage. Luckily we have remained friends and become "co-counsellors" without the co-dependence. Next week I am taking her (as a friend) from our home bases in Australia to Maui and Lanai as a celebration for our achievements in rapid self growth over the last year.

As empaths and survivors of abusive parents who we valiantly have tried to please, we are so vulnerable - our very strengths are our weakness when faced by those who would take advantage (wittingly or unwittingly). We both hit a point in our timelines when we both said "enough". Boundaries, boundaries boundaries! Time to act! At 54 years old (coincidentally our age) there is no time left for excuses! Time for us! Let's get this fixed once and for all! There is still time to recast our respective lives, surround ourselves with new people who are healthy for our growth and happiness, people who "share", on balance, their time, energy, money and love.

Allowing ourselves the time and space to be free to grow in our own individual ways has made the way clear for very rapid realisation, acceptance, and healing.  This may not have been possible whilst we were still together.

Ironically, money became a big issue. I had more cash and a better earning career. Her stuff was holding her back, no matter how hard I tried too help her with work related issues, prep resumes, write job letters and so forth, she was blocked to success. Eventually, the cash aspect became one bordering on resentment for me and an issue she sensed was driving us apart (yep - the concept of when you start to feel burdened you rebel in the relationship). By stepping out of the relationship the money elephant in the room was dispensed along with the traps of co-dependency and the path forwards cleared.

In a matter of months I have come to fully appreciate the extent of the abuse, accept the pervasive affects on my life over decades, formulate a plan to deconstruct aspects of perfectionism, etc., that have been the outputs of unfortunate experiences.

The behaviours of your partner would also give myself pause for thought, were I in your situation!

May I hazard a point of view?... .just a thought

I would want to know what the "real issue" was behind my partner's behaviour. Maybe it is associated with the intensifying religious engagement or maybe he is feeling his age and wants to be sure financial security is left as his legacy, maybe there is another reason, etc... .

In any case, I would be reviewing all of my expectations and goals for my relationship and asking whether they are being honoured. And yes, at the very least insisting on certain boundaries - certainly if finances are shared as a matrimonial pool, I would expect an equal say / power of veto, and demand joint signatures on all financial matters.

I also wouldn't hesitate to take time out from a relationship if I felt my health and / or happiness were being disrespected.

But that's me. And I should add that as an atheist I wouldn't have to process any religious considerations which might be relevant to others (so, perhaps, can't add further comment on the religious dimension of folk defining the dynamics of a marriage or the "righteousness" of a separation / divorce).

Regardless, as a humanist and rationalist, it is my position that we all deserve happiness, respect, a chance to chase our potential. In my view of the world a good friend or partner honours these things. That is what I expect in any friendship or partnership. That said, others can only really take advantage of us when we let them!

Wools, you are obviously a person of exceptional qualities - please do value yourself and find a way to let those good qualities shine!  
 

[Basenji]

[sorry - double post]

[Notwendy]

Personally, I think the humanist/rational view that all humans deserve the chance to fulfill their potential is compatible with the idea that all humans are created in the image of a Creator. The main idea- all humans have equal worth prevails. I also think there are different paths to spiritual/emotional growth and we choose the one that fits us best. Often religion/atheism are pitted against each other, but I would bet there are many ideals that both share.

In the case of religious interpretation, I think it is pretty clear that some individuals have taken religious principles to do great things in the world, and some have warped them. Ideals are ideals- then there are humans to enact them. We've also seen examples of people who are both religious and rational and those who exist on the fringes of fanaticism.

One of the ideas in our ACA group is "religious abuse". Children form their concept of God on their parents. Parents do appear god like to a small child. They are also their first teachers. However, some members in our ACA group grew up with abusive parents- and so were subjected to emotional and religious abuse. They formed an image of a "get you god" based on their parents' behavior. As adults, they had to reform that image in an adult way.

A relationship with God includes humans, and if the human is dysfunctional, then the relationship can be dysfunctional. It is concerning to think that Wool's H considers himself an authority on the Bible- his own interpretation without input from others. If this is a change from his norm, there may be some exacerbation of mental illness going on. His interpretations could also be way off. People can use the Bible to validate their own ideas, and even delusions.

I think the idea of the H being the spiritual head of the family is also interpreted and carried out in different ways. It can be done symbolically and with teamwork and love, or an abusive person can abuse it. I don't think it means being a tyrant or inconsiderate. In most states, marital property is 50-50. Taking a large sum of money without consulting the spouse is a trust violation, not being a "leader".

Wools - your spiritual connection with God is between you and God. It isn't defined by your H. Find this, and there is your self worth. And for humanists, your relationship with the world is between you and the world- not defined by anyone else. Self worth derives from these ideas.

[Fie]

Dear Wools  


I am not a religious person, but I do think if God exists he loves all of his children and he does not want them to be unhappy.  I am a humanist and I think our main goal here in these few years we have on earth, is love. Love for our partner, our children, our friends, our neighbors, for animals, it doesn't really matter as long as we see that love is everywhere and we can and should give it freely (Not saying I can always live up to my believes myself but I'm trying  :-P).  Seeing the way in which you respond to members I think you feel the same way and you surely made a lot of members, including me, happy with your insights and compassion.

But how can we always spread love and happiness if we are not happy ourselves ? Is it therefor not our first duty to make sure we are alright ourselves ? To be a better person for ourselves and for others ?

Have you thought about what it is that *you* want ? Next to your feelings of obligation towards your husband / towards God ? You state your marriage is unhealthy. Reading what  you wote I cannot do anything else than agree.  

Do you think being with someone who does not value you for who you are, gets out the best of you ?
You wonder if you have value. Rationally of course you know you do, I am guessing these are your emotions speaking. (Very normal considering you are in a marriage where you get confronted on daily basis with unvalidating words and actions - from a person who is supposed to love you) Would you say that being in an unhealthy situation gets the best out of you ?

Is there an even 'better', healthier Wools hidden, who doesn't seem to be able to come out ? I strongly believe that some people lift us up, they get out the best out of us. But how can we be our true selves around people who put us down ... .Even the greatest of optimists might be doomed to fail.  

Maybe you can consider asking yourself the question what it is that you really want - based on realistic perspectives. Your husband might or might not change, you are in a better position to judge that.
What do you want Wools ? And next to that, do you still love your husband ?

 

[Basenji]

Often religion/atheism are pitted against each other, but I would bet there are many ideals that both share.

May I just add a clarification?  I mentioned being an atheist so as to qualify that my shared personal experiences / view of the world may or may not apply to others (who may or may not need to process their religious beliefs / teachings in their decision making and healing process).

It was not my intention to encourage pitting one world view against another! Rather I was trying to say that as an atheist I had no direct experience to contribute on the topic of religious considerations within the scope of this wonderful website or thread from Wools.

[Woolspinner2000]

Notwendy, there were many relevant things you mentioned in your post.

I also didn't understand abuse. I thought it meant the abuser hated you and beat you. But I grew up with parents who both loved me and emotionally abused me. So did my H. He was cruel to me for many years, and I believed it was my fault. Why wouldn't I? That was what I was told growing up when BPD mother was angry at me.

Abuse can be really tough to understand. All my growing up years, I figured I deserved everything I got, and that was what I was told. Like you. They loved me, and I learned that love was conditional. In fact when I was dating my H, I remember I didn't even know what love was. Had no clue. There is so much more to abuse than just the physical side of it. The abuse which plays with your mind is some of the worst. Sounds like you learned co-dependency when you were a little one too. I didn't even know what that word meant until a few years ago.

Once I stopped focusing on trying to please him, waiting, hoping he would notice and just taking care of me and the kids, something shifted in him too.

Since I've been in counseling these past 5 years, I have changed so much. From the point of not thinking there was any abuse in my FOO, to grasping the scope of the black hole of abuse... .let's just say the blinders have come off. Throughout that process, the depression and loneliness I felt in my marriage merged into sudden understanding one day, and I saw just how connected the two were, for as you said,  "You know we attract people who match us in some way, and I did as well." As I've changed, I have stepped away a significant amount from trying to meet his every emotional need which no person is capable of doing. He has begun to shift as well, but usually it can be seen in his attempts to try and pull me back in to him emotionally. That tends to set off big alarms in me, due to the terrible enmeshment from both of my parents but especially my uBPDm. I want nothing to do with unhealthy emotional enmeshment again if I can help it. I feel bad that I step away emotionally, but I know that it is part of the letting go of what was my normal. I have to let go to get away from the co-dependency. It is one of the hardest things ever to do because it IS your security and safety and means of survival. It doesn't work well though, not at all.

if you were made in the image of God, equal as everyone else, to deny your self worth is to deny the part of you that God felt was worthy.

This is really interesting. I shall have to ponder on it. As I mentioned quickly in the post yesterday, I have a workbook coming and plan on starting on a 12 week co-dependency class. I am hitting a lower place than I've been before (unless it compares to my parent's deaths but that is still a different realm), but it isn't all bad to be here. Not that I want to be, but the truth is if it points me down a path to find more answers for this struggle as to why I keep putting up with the behavior and helps me to grasp a hold of my value, then it will be worth the pain of the current time. 

As to your H. I struggled with this idea with "honoring parents" but if I was co-dependent and enabling to them, I wasn't honoring their potential for being good people. I was allowing them to behave poorly towards me and that isn't being kind or good. So ironically, it could be more Biblically sound to not enable people if enabling them isn't for their better good. Allowing your H to be an unethical leader of the family may be less OK than standing up to him.

Once again, a thought process I have not considered. Thank you for sharing this. I just have to get my gumption up which really means to find my self and who I am. Really, I am coming along but for all the work, there is still more to be done. Can you imagine that 5 years ago I would never have been able to move the money that I did, or consult a lawyer? Now I can.

When I changed my co-dependent habits- my H didn't like it, but there was no going back to the patterns we had.

Lastly-to this comment and the paragraph you shared. I also cannot go back to the old dance. Sometimes he looks at me and says he is to love me through this, but it is not loving to me when he deceived me. Guess we have a different understanding of what love is.

Wools

[Woolspinner2000]

Basenji,

Thank you! For the very kind words, even as a newer member, you encouraged me with your kindness.  I also found the thoughts you shared to be very helpful, and your personal experience said a lot to me.

Allowing ourselves the time and space to be free to grow in our own individual ways has made the way clear for very rapid realisation, acceptance, and healing.  This may not have been possible whilst we were still together

More than once I have thought, "If I could only go away for a while (like 6 months to a year) and work on my stuff and he on his stuff, then I could have the space I need to see if we can heal our marriage and make it work." When I am feeling strong and powerful, this is what I want. I don't want to run away to divorce. I want to do all that I can, but I cannot do this devaluing of myself for much longer. It is my responsibility, as so many of you have said, to find the value in myself for myself. It is not based on him or on anyone else.

You asked a great question, "What is the real issue behind the behavior?" I know that he has his own issues going on. One of them has to do with the fact that he is getting older and doesn't want to be disregarded. Sounds similar to where I am, doesn't it? There is some dysfunction going on when one person has to exert themselves over another in order to not be disregarded. I don't know if I said that right, but I hope you can make sense of what I mean. In my own dysfunction that comes along with co-dependency, I've always wanted to cheer him on and lift him up, supporting and encouraging him. It has all been at the cost of self though, and while I may wish to point a blaming finger at him, it really is up to me to find my value and take the burden of that off of his shoulders or those of anyone else. See, you guys are helping me to process a whole bunch!

And yes, at the very least insisting on certain boundaries - certainly if finances are shared as a matrimonial pool, I would expect an equal say / power of veto, and demand joint signatures on all financial matters.

This is very good, and I had not thought of it. We have always shared all the finances, except for when it comes to his business decisions. I've been a co-laborer with him in his business, taking very little to no wages for many years so we could keep more in the company. I worked for him for 24 years before I went back to school at 46 years old and got a 2 year degree. It is what is now paying most of our bills, the money I earn from working for someone else now.

Please note there is no offense taken in the slightest about atheism, humanism, rationalism... .I actually found it quite refreshing to see that others outside the realm of Christianity find great value in me (and others) as a person.  Sometimes we can shoot ourselves in the foot trying hard to represent something or a particular religious point of view, but people can see through that in a moment as to if it is true or not. Doesn't matter what we believe.

Wools, you are obviously a person of exceptional qualities - please do value yourself and find a way to let those good qualities shine!

Thank you so much.

 
Wools

[Basenji]

When I am feeling strong and powerful, this is what I want. I don't want to run away to divorce. I want to do all that I can, but I cannot do this devaluing of myself for much longer. It is my responsibility, as so many of you have said, to find the value in myself for myself. It is not based on him or on anyone else... .

... .the fact that he is getting older and doesn't want to be disregarded... .

... .We have always shared all the finances, except for when it comes to his business decisions.

Wools, please may I put the mirror up at this point: you just wrote a statement (first paragraph above) showing amazing affirmation, strength and insight! Fantastic!

Perhaps, you have just articulated your primary goal in clear and unambiguous terms?

If that statement captures your goal in your moments of strength and clarity - then perhaps embrace such and the next step is to work out how to make it happen!

I find (perhaps as a legacy of using project management techniques in business to achieve complex outcomes) that to keep clarity and set a proactive and practical agenda, it can help to define the primary goal, then list objectives to support that goal, and then work out the day to day tasks to get the job done! If you get lost in the detail it is all too easy to lose grip!

Of course you are not the only player here - your partner is part of the picture. A loving and supportive partner would back you 100% on your chosen journey to full healing and happiness. You have said you actually don't want a divorce (which should in theory reassure a partner), but you do need the "space" and "freedom" to blossom as a person in celebration of your own unique attributes.

I think I'm drifting towards the following suggestion - there is something in you that your husband needs to recognise, support and honour (your healing, your sense of value, etc), and there is something about your husband you haven't fully worked out by return (his apparent or real betrayal of trust in financial matters, etc., which MAY be indicative of a deeper issue). Perhaps, regardless of your respective feelings for each other, you may need to bridge this gap to regain a healthy relationship? Perhaps you both need the courage and honesty to build that bridge? If not... .well, worry about Plan B later... .status quo is not an option (presumably).

May I also add an observation?

Your relationship is facing change, both from the ageing process / age difference dynamic and the fact that he is retired and you are the "breadwinner" (if I understand correctly). Various aspects of these changes may be hitting him harder than others (not making excuses for him, just saying). For example, his sense of being head of the household (whatever that may mean to him) may be taking a king hit (just an idea to provide a hypothetical example).

Your roles may be changing. My exGF would go into the child if stressed. It was a real issue in the relationship that I was becoming more of a parental figure than a partner.

If the man is that much older and has retired, etc., maybe the dynamic is shifting so that the younger wife has to step up and be the adult, the parent in the relationship. Evolution from old roles may not come easily - control is exerted over those things still controllable (e.g. the cash) and solace / validation is sought in faith or otherwise in ways which may be healthy or unhealthy to greater or lessor degrees. Uncertainty might even breed distrust. Who knows: but maybe you do need to know to chart the way forward.

(Perhaps a good moment to recall that our roles should not be mistaken for your true identities).

Clarity and strength, Wools: I'm absolutely confident you can master any goal you set yourself!    



  

 





  

[Notwendy]

Hi Basenji,

Thanks for clarifying your thoughts on atheism. In recent years, I have noticed a trend- on social media- where people discuss topics like religion and science. Personally, I feel that there is a great diversity in points of view- beyond the categories and they aren't necessarily incompatible. My sources aren't exactly the most reliable- internet memes, comments people make, but it seems to me that people are more divided on the topics these days.

Spirituality is so personal and I think it is helpful to see different points of view about topics. Thanks for adding yours.

[Notwendy]

Wools, it took me a long time to understand the idea of co-dependency, especially because I am an independent person. But the word applies to how we relate to people- feel responsible for their feelings- and put our focus on them, even if we are independent in other areas of our lives.

I'm sure many of us learned this as children if we have a BPD parent. My mother was so focused on her feelings. I believe my father loved me, but he was focused on my mother's feelings too.

When I began dating, I thought it was my job to keep my date happy or perhaps he wouldn't like me. That was the pattern I had with my parents- make mother happy or they would be angry. This idea sets us up for relationships where we don't expect much kindness- or we think that a little bit is all there is.

I think my H and I have repaired the relationship to the point where the circular arguments, and the verbal abuse is ended, thankfully. We work together well in terms of being parents, running a household.

However, it also includes some radical acceptance of our personality traits. I feel that my H needs more emotional distance than I do- getting too close can result in the push pull. When I learned about boundaries- I thought the problem was boundaries that are too weak, but we can also have too strong ones- which my H has. In the past, it seemed I was trying to push against the boundaries- wanting to be closer. Although he liked the attention, he also pushed me away. This was part of our dysfunctional dance. It was similar to my FOO- if I worked really hard at pleasing my parents, then I would be in their good graces for a while. It didn't occur to me that someone would want to please me too.

My H is somewhat of a loner. He likes to do things on his own. This used to hurt my feelings as I wanted to do more as a couple. Now, I realize this is who he is. I see couples who spend more time together than we do, and I have wished for this, but then, I also accept that this doesn't work for us. He needs space. I had to learn to accept that this is an aspect of his boundaries. Not recognizing his boundaries was a reflection of the boundary issues I grew up with. So when I gained better boundaries, I also learned to recognize other people's better too.

[Woolspinner2000]

Fie, thank you for your note! I always enjoy interacting with you too.  I love this question:

Is there an even 'better', healthier Wools hidden, who doesn't seem to be able to come out ? I strongly believe that some people lift us up, they get out the best out of us.

I suspect there really is. She is just beginning to emerge here and there, when my emotions are not constantly unsettled. Then this person begins to emerge that surprises me and I wonder who in the world it is. As soon as these heavy issues come up once again in the cyclical manner they do around me, then that new person hides away again.

Do you think being with someone who does not value you for who you are, gets out the best of you ?

I know that my best doesn't come out when there is this heaviness around me, pushing me down and keeping me contained. It is another good point, to ponder who we want to be around. It is all about choices so often. There is so much to ponder.

Basenji, the observations about how the relationship may be changing is spot on, and really good. It is helpful to understand that there are so many different aspects and dynamics to our marriage that are changing including the aging process, who is the main bread winner now, etc. It is another helpful step back to cause me to take a look at the bigger picture, while at the same time not minimizing what the current situation is all about. As my emotions settle, that helps me look at the facts a bit more clearly too. All is a part of our makeup and part of our processing.

Notwendy, my co-dependency book finally arrived today. I hope to have some time to begin this weekend. I appreciate the notes that you and your H had to figure out the new way to do things, with both you and H learning and adjusting. Neither of you were wrong is something I noted. You were each different and used the radical acceptance in a good way it seems.

I am off on a grad school visit with our son tomorrow, then will be gone for the weekend in case I do not have the chance to respond to any further posts. This has been a very worthwhile discussion for me, and I know I'm going to still be working on this. It is not an easy or quick fix. It is helpful to know that all this re-working in our lives takes time, and I've learned to be comfortable with that process.

 
Wools

[Fie]

Hello Wools 

How was the weekend ?  How are you feeling ?

xx

[purekalm]

Woolspinner2000,

 

I may not be able to add to the collective wisdom that's already been shared, but I wanted to let you know that I believe you do have value. You've been there for me when I literally had no one and shared your kind heart and knowledge. I will forever be grateful.

You truly do have value simply because you exist and even though you and I both know, I know we still struggle with it on a day to day basis. Do you open your special box when you feel you have no value? Sometimes the words of others can re-inspire what we know to be true about ourselves. It's hard when there is a constant force against that truth, but it does not change it. 

You are strong, kind, intelligent, gentle, giving and have a great sense of humor. You are affectionately known as 'Wools' for a reason and I think all who have encountered your presence online would agree.

I sincerely thank you for being you,

Purekalm

[Woolspinner2000]

I can't believe I've only been gone a week. Seems longer and so much went on in that week. I drove over 1100 miles in 6 days. Now I'm officially exhausted.

The grad school visit with my son went well. Since it's not very cool to take mom along to a grad school visit,   I dropped him off to meet his new professors and found a place to read. I worked on the first chapter in my new Co-dependency workbook so spent some constructive time while there. My son is a great young man, and he asked me to come along because he wanted the company and my opinion. It was good although we drove through snow, rain and sleet on the 5 hour trip.

The next day I left to go and visit the family I lived with when I was in the DR Congo. The dad had a retirement party. and it was so wonderful to get away by myself and spend time with them. I came back late Sunday night.

Right before I left for the above mentioned trip, we got the message that my H brother had passed away. We had the visitation Wednesday and the funeral was yesterday. I worked today and the fatigue is catching up big time.

I had a lot of time to think with all those hours of driving. I've gotten a few weeks out from the emotions I was so stunned with at the beginning of this thread, and there is more settling inside of me but not a lot of solid answers yet. I know that within me there is this urge to be cautious and to hold him (DH) at arms length. Now enter the dynamics of grief for him. He is fairly distant from his emotions and was not very connected to his brother. After having lost both my parents not too long ago, I am well acquainted with the typical grief symptoms, and I will try to listen and let him process on his own, like each of us do in this situation. I don't know how it will affect our relationship.

There were some unkind words he shared with me last night about our son. Thankfully our son did not hear them because he is back at college. But I did, and I struggled in how to respond and yet to stay out of it. When I began reading in the Co-dependency workbook, I was astonished at what I read. The shoe fits... .one for me and one for DH. Who DH is fits the description so thoroughly, and I tried to allow myself to feel whatever I was feeling when he was going off on our son, but at the same time to not allow what he said to penetrate and control my inner being. Does that make sense? For too long the control has been there, and my unknown enabling as well. It was a mental battle, but in the end I think I won it for that bit of time. Strengthening.

I finally came to the conclusion that what he said were just words. Words and more words which reflect the goings on in his heart, soul, and mind. They do not define our son any more than all the actions of the past weeks by DH define me. I could see some of the codependent things playing out in his attempts to control or influence someone else to do exactly what he wanted. It was interesting.

Purekalm, Thank you for your words. They warmed my heart and encouraged me very much. Darn it but you are reminding me of my words to you... .!   I have forgotten to pull that out so I will heed your good advice and pull out my positive box too. 

I am very tired. When I sit with the thoughts I am learning from the workbook and online class videos, I am blown away. Trying hard to not be self condemning, but the blinders are falling off.

 
Wools