I messed up

[isilme]

So I have some debt I've been working to pay off for years.  Credit cards I got at a time when H was not working or not working full time.  I used them to keep us afloat at times, and later to help us go on small trips once a year - as I'd get it almost paid off, I'd find I needed them again. 

I did not tell him about these cards.  He hates debt, but has very black and white ideas about what makes you poor or not, and making it past each month with a little more in savings than the last is a step ahead I thought.  He does not.  He got onto me for buying vitamins through a subscription service.  These were vitamins he wanted, but as I learned we had too many bottles because they were not being taken, I stopped those from coming.  I still had others coming, that only recently did I again learn we had too many.  Stopped them.  He is convinced that is the source of our money drain - it's actually tiny, small things, like eating out too much, buying slightly better groceries, and now going to see about his physical ailments regularly.  Small things like eating out 2 more times a week than usual adds up.  Paying a copay, even just twice a week adds up.  And yes, having vitamins come we don't need or use adds up.  Buying a new mattress adds up.  I finally admitted to the credit cards last night - he as insisting I have a lover and am buying/sending him money, because to him that makes sense.

I am ashamed.  I wanted to get them paid off and gone before he learned about them,  That's bad on my part, and I get it.  I thought I was doing what needed to be done at the time.  I did not want to add to his shame by admitting we were broke, or that I put a hotel room for a trip on the card, or gas, and I did not want to add to mine by saying we can't go do something.  His worries get out of hand.  His fuzzy math makes it hard for him to follow that if we put 1K in the bank each month, it will take 5 months to reach 5K, and so don't freak out till at least May. This is almost doable - maybe 500 a month instead at times.  It's March.  Dec., Jan., and Feb. have all been expensive.  I got about 500 a month the last 2 months in. 

To me, they were supposed to be a tool, and I was hoping to get them paid off and gone in the next year or two, as we are both working now and I want to build savings and earn interest, not pay back interest.  But that takes time.  I'm looking at the expense.  I do buy too much online.  I think I do it as a calming thing.  It's not always stuff for me.  Usually not.  I feel like an ass, I know I deserve it.  I should not have hidden it.  And now I don't know where we stand.  He's freaking out, looking for ways to sell off everything we own to make up what he thinks will give us his desired savings.  I told him, we just need to eat out far less.  I canceled the vitamins until I know what we (he) will use.  I cancelled another subscription because it was an extravagance. 

He was upset, but did not rage.  This is a normal upset, not something undeserved or that he is wrong to feel towards me.

Yes, I think his BPD was a factor in my feeling I should use the cards and keep using them, because it contributed to the times he was not working, or how hard it was for me to speak up about us being broke.  But that was my call.  I should have been better about stating "we can't do that".

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[WitzEndWife]

So... .are you ashamed about creating the debt, or are you ashamed because he found out about it?

I would examine why you were hiding it in the first place. You faced a very real financial dilemma, caused in part by your H's unemployment. As married partners, you both take responsibility for finances within the household. If he is or was unable to contribute, but also enjoyed things like eating out, he is still partially responsible for creating your financial situation. He's helping to create the debt, but he's placing the burden on YOU for figuring out how to deal with it.

My H is very similar in that he tries to control my finances, even though he doesn't work. When he wants something, it's all, "WE need this because... ." He always begs to go out to eat as well. This places the burden of responsibility squarely on my shoulders, even though he's breathing down my neck about paying off my credit cards, and saying that we should be putting "x amount" on our bills every month (when he's constantly got something pricey in mind for the cars, or some other large expense).

This is a control tactic. As the primary breadwinner, you get to decide how best to manage debts. Your decision to use credit wasn't a bad choice (it's important to have SOME credit going), you just let the budget get out of control. As a solution, and to keep the peace, I would work on setting a budget together, and sticking to it. So, if that means no eating out, or eating out once a month, so be it. Set clear boundaries about finances, and maybe put a copy of it on the wall so both of you can keep track.

[isilme]

I'm ashamed of hiding it, AND creating it.  I did not tell him, I did not consult him, because I felt it was wrong on some level.  I was ashamed for not being able to bring in more money.  I was worried about making him feel bad when his self-esteem was starting to perk back up, and later, it's one of those things that I wanted to clear on my own - I started it, I needed to finish it.

This is not the indignant feeling when I know he's accusing me of something I did not do.  (Other than accusing me of spending money on another man )

It started before we got married, we were living together a very long time before, and I really wanted to get it cleared up before the wedding, but, well, even a cheap wedding is an extra expense, so minimum payments it was. 

I told him one solution was to stop eating out at least like we've been doing on nights when we go to his treatments.  Basically, the treatments co-pay cost about the same as eating out, so those nights it's like we've been eating out twice.  He thinks he needs to stop all medical visits. 

It's just black and white to him.  He spent a lot of time last night defending how he may have spent a lot of money in the past, but he's stopped.  Well, no, he trickles it out in streaming purchases now, and still splurges when we both go to a store.  I've been bad about buying clothes for my job - H complained my old clothes looked bad and fit poorly, and I am a minor manager now.  I've got plenty of clothes, and am ready to sell off some.  If we do not have what he wants saved, we're broke and destitute.  If we 've got any debt other than student loans (his are pretty high) we are broke.  I'm like, we are okay, but we don't need to go to town and splurge - those trips are about $700 at the least.  He planned one for this coming weekend, and I did not really want to go - it's fun, but it's expensive.  We could cover it, but it's not a priority for me.  I'd rather be at home most of the time.   

I know I deserve some blow back for hiding it.  I get that.  And I do not deny it.  But I do need to get out on here that I feel if he did not have BPD, I'd have probably not had an unworking partner for as long as I did, and I'd have not been afraid to talk to him about it.  Again, my choices, but I think those are factors in what I decided to do and not mention.  And my idea of "okay" versus his are different.  He thinks we need 1000s set aside (good plan, hard to do) at all times.  I'm like, in the past, we had overdrafts regularly.  We are now putting some aside, addressing debt, AND in the black at the end of each pay period.  There are some household repairs we need, there is a dream accomplishment he wants to do, and I am working to save for those, while still LIVING.  I don't want us just at home all the time - we need a few times a year as we can afford to get out. 

[WitzEndWife]

First, I hear you that you feel ashamed for hiding it, and I agree that hiding things in a marriage isn't the best tactic, but also, you didn't hide it for no reason. You hid it because you knew that it would set him off, and that he'd shame you for it. You hid it because you were strapped BECAUSE of his lack of employment, and you felt you had no other option. So, really, your choices were to A) Be upfront about the expenses (which would have caused a fight, of course), or B) Try to take care of them on your own to avoid an argument. You gambled with option B and you lost, because he found out anyway. Your choices were limited in the first place, because, either way, he would have become upset.

He's splitting between feast or famine because he cannot handle the concept of moderation. Also, BPDs will use any excuse to get out of treatment, so, of course, this is seen as the "frivolous" activity, over eating out (because eating out is fun, therapy isn't).

I suggest that you take inventory of your necessary monthly expenses, versus your income (include therapy and medical treatment, because health is a necessity). With what is left over, determine how much discretionary income you will have, and portion some off for paying bills, and some for things like new clothing, entertainment (meals out, movies, etc.), and other items. Take that entertainment money out in cash each month and split it between you. That way, once the money is gone, it's gone, and your H can physically control what he has in his pocket. That way, he can see that there is money that he can spend, he can see just how much he has, and he can determine how best to spend his portion.

My H has a credit card with a small limit, and he is able to spend only that much each month on discretionary items. That way, he feels like he has some control, without spending all of our money. He also likes it because he can pay for things like dinner when we're out with friends (he doesn't like to seem like a "loser" who can't pay for himself ever).

Money and finances are just another means of control for BPDs. Just because he has a rigid idea of what things SHOULD be like, doesn't mean that's reality. AND, if he thinks you need 1000s saved, then HE should be contributing to that, instead of placing the burden on you. This isn't an emotional issue, this is a matter of practicality. Sure, we all spend too much money on frivolous items at times. The point is to determine very clearly how much you actually have to spend freely, versus how much you have to save. If the amount you have to save isn't satisfactory to him, then he can work to pull in more income to make that happen, or he can spend less on frivolous items, like clothing and food.

[isilme]

I like the cash idea.  I need to restrict myself to it - I DO tend to spend on frivolous things, thinking it doesn't matter that much.  But it does.  We need to save, and I've gone from an enforcer to an enabler of both of us.  It was just the path of least resistance at the time - I got lazy and complacent.  I was reading Dave Ramsey this morning.  I think I need to make myself go read his website each time I feel an urge to make a purchase to talk myself down - I was self-medicating with buying.  My mother has addictive tendencies, so I guess I have just come out and admitted mine.   

So I need to pay off these stupid cards to stop wasting money on interest.

[Grey Kitty]

How are your finances? All joint, all separate, or a bit of both?

I don't think that hiding debts or credit cards like that is a good idea in a partnership, and I'm glad you aren't doing that anymore.

That said, it *IS* completely reasonable to agree with your H that some financial things aren't shared. If an account and a credit card is strictly yours, then what you do with it isn't his business, outside what you agree to disclose. If you get a personal windfall, it is up to the two of you how or if that is shared. (Reciprocal situations apply as well)

The range of financial independence couples can have goes anywhere from zero to completely joint, and what works for each couple has to be worked out individually.

Your H has some crazy black and white thinking about money, and gets dysregulated about it, and you are afraid of those dysregulations.

You have your own issues as well, and it has turned into quite mess all together.

[isilme]

We made everything joint in 2015, after being separated for about 18 years.  I have the cards in my name prior to joining accounts, and kept them separate.

I have a plan of action, but it's been hard to explain paying something down that's not supposed to exist, so I'd plan to pay more and end up just paying the minimum, which is very slow going even if you never touch that account.  So, I can now pay it down in the open at least.  I ran away from dealing with it, so while I know it sounds weird, I deserve "some" of the anger coming at me.  We will see how long he stays upset.  I plan to offer him the cards to cut up once I close the accounts.  I think that will be a good gesture and finailze it for him.  It's just that saving and paying all takes time, and he DOES expect things to happen NOW, as if I can make that happen. 

[isilme]

He's also denying that many large scale purchases were with HIS permission and often at his insistence.  He's rewritten it so that I chose out of the blue to buy a new mattress (not that it was his idea, he insisted, and that once I told him, okay, I bought that bed you wanted, he freaked out like I am the one who found it).  Or a cabinet he wanted for storage - I told him to let me know if it looked like it was too small for what we needed so I could take steps to return it.  He didn't until it was too late. 

[Grey Kitty]

Aside from the bitter pill of coming clean about the hidden credit cards... .are you finding that joint finances are working better for you?

[isilme]

yes, jointly we actually have been able to hold on to more in savings than usually when it was his job to put things aside.  In past years, I paid pretty much all bills and some groceries, while he did more of the groceries, "fun spending" and he was to save the property tax each year.  He never had it quite saved.  We also had to play a little dance about who was buying groceries each trip - he never knew quite how much he had in his account, and I knew pretty much what I had at all times.  He will surprise me at times with some expenses, and he does not keep track of things like annual subscriptions for the Xbox, and it's only fair as it's his money as well for him to be able to spend it.  I think I just need to baldly state our status regularly instead of being ashamed to tell him no, or that we can't do certain things. 

So, we've been able two years straight to pay the property tax on time, we have had enough in savings to pay for some electrical work (that's part of why we are low at this time, as I try to refill it, we've had an AC repair, some car stuff, his shoes needed replacing, and the new Dr. appointments are just eating up more than he realizes).  He wants it all now - fix the back porch.  Buy a BBQ pit.  Buy a new PC.  Pay for a personal creative project he wants to do.  I'm like, we both only started getting paid above the poverty line a few years back for him, and last spring for me (not even a year).  Fixing some electrical issues and adding perimeter security lights was a big deal.  without my new job, we may have not been able to do it.  I splurged for his Christmas and got us a small security system, too, as one thing he always complains about is home security.  It was not expensive, they had a sale, and it's one you hear about all the time on the radio, and we can cancel any time. 

He insists we "need" things, but then when it turns out they cost more than he realized, it was my idea.  This si the BPD stuff that makes things hard to be open about.  He will dither forever to pick something, or make a decision, and then complain if I get fed up and just make it.  Also, today at lunch he tried to insinuate that I am cheating and spending money on another man, or sending cash to my mom with whom I've been NC for about 7 years.  I don't even know for certain where she lives - I don't want to know.  He always goes back to accusing me of cheating, wanting to leave, and I know this just reinforces his internal insistence that I don't care about him except for his paycheck (which is ironic as I worked for 7.5 solid years while he barely did part time if he worked at all, and he'd dropped out of school - those were the years I applied for the damn cards.  I was just too weak to stop using them when I could have.)

[Grey Kitty]

Well, it sounds like between the two of you, you are the more financially responsible one, so you managing joint finances (with some transparency) sounds like your best solution.

The only things left to do are to enforce some boundaries--you aren't going to let him trap you into recriminations and accusations about where you are spending money or that he didn't agree to a big expense.

You already know you need to tell him "No, we can't afford it all this month, and here's why." 'Tho S.E.T. might help that go down better!

[isilme]

I need to get more comfortable telling him where we stand.  And face whatever comes from it.  It's like how I used to hide my report card from my BPD parents so they'd not see I had not been doing my homework (again).  And yes, in many ways the way I was raised determined my initial instincts with how to deal with H.  So this is yet one more thing I need to grow up about. 

[ArleighBurke]

Not telling him = avoiding an arguement. I've been there - almost the same as you.

Finances and money are emotional topics. So talking with him about it WILL cause him to have feelings - and being BPD he won't be able to handle them and you'll get blame/rage/denial etc.

But it's one of those things you need to do. For your own growth - you need to be able to talk about difficult things and know that he will react, and be OK with it. You are the parent! (Really - imagine telling a 7yr old that they can't have what they want whenever they want - they'll chuck a little tantrum as well - just like a BPD adult!)

As you be open and honest more, you'll realise that his response is always predictable. It doesn't make it any easier, but you'll learn a bit more self-trust and emotional distance.