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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: The right way to detach - NC 282 days  (Read 1084 times)
NCEA
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« on: March 17, 2017, 07:46:24 AM »



I'm in day 282 of NC and wanted to share my experience with the other members of the board, especially those who are about to end / leave / have been broken up with / a BPD relationship.

I use "broken up" and not "discarded" because to me this word has a very negative harsh tone to it. Discarded literally means "get rid of (someone or something) as no longer useful or desirable" and I don't think that this is a healthy way to look at what we've all gone through. I actually think that the whole community should stop using that word.

I may post later the whole story of the relationship and how it ended but I want to concentrate here on what I see as the best way to detach. I'm sure I'm not the one who "came up with it" and I may be repeating what others have reported already.

I'm currently as I said on day 282 NC. It does get a lot easier of course but I must say that I'm surprised by the strength of my feelings considering how long it has been, in addition to me being in a new and a much better relationship for months now.

I'm fully aware and accepting the fact that it will take no less than *two full years* to really get over it. Still, after so many months, I find myself thinking about my ex a lot, coming to this board to read stories, playing moments over and over in my head, cycling between anger an acceptance and pain.

The reason for this healing period being so long, and for it still being so difficult on me, is the fact that it was a "harsh" NC without the two of us actually agreeing on going on it.

When my ex told me over the phone that she'd like us to "go on a break" and that she wants to date other people (End of recycle #Who-Knows-What-Number-Depending-On-How-You-Count) I went into a week long campaign trying to convince her to give us a last chance and that at the minimum she respect me by agreeing to meet me face to face (we live in different cities).

I saw the end of this cycle coming a few weeks earlier as when we spent a few days together I've noticed that she was on one of her narcissistic rage cycles, and as it was early spring/summer, when layers of clothing comes off, people go out dancing and drinking etc. All very predictable.

By way of emails and WhatsApp she refused trying us again or meeting me, becoming more and more harsh with my every attempt. Finally I wrote "fine, at least I know I tried. Have a nice week" and ended it there. She did not reply to this last message.

At this point I've assumed that we will stay friends to some extent or another as we've discussed our friendship many times and made it clear to each other that "whatever happens" we will always be there for each other.

I did not block her, did not send angry emails, none of that. I did not unfriend her from FB as I've already done that the previous round and we were not FB friends.

One day passed, another and another. 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 5 weeks, two months... .and nothing from her.

During this time different events happened, things that made me expect her to contact me, just to ask me how I was doing / to check up on me. (deadlines of projects, certain political events, etc). BUT... .nothing.

We went from communicating daily to nothing at all, just like that. OK maybe it was a discard   .

At the two months point I became very angry. I couldn't believe how unkind this woman was, ignoring me like that, after all we've gone thru together, and the amount of kindness and love that I've thrown her way. I found it downright insulting. I was raging.

As a way for "gaining control over the situation" I proceeded by blocking her WhatsApp  and setting up an email filter, making her emails to be automatically deleted.

Blocking someone on Whatsapp has the same effect as someone losing his phone / changing his number (which I often do, for travel reasons and which I actually had to do about three months ago due to exchanging a phone) so as far as I'm concerned this wasn't a "hostile" move on my part. The email filter as well, simply meant that I would not get her emails. She would not get a "failed notification" or anything like that.

At first, of course, I felt great doing it. One month passed, another and another. At some point a wave of "forgiveness" washed all over me, and I deleted the filter, only to put it back again a couple of weeks later, then remove it, and then put it back up again.

In other words - by now, more than 9 months in, she may or may not have contacted me. I have no way of knowing... .if she did email me, it went right to the trash.

In the last couple of weeks, in my anger (it really does come and goes), I've deleted all our email correspondence and unfriended the few mutual FB friends that we did have (her friends). My next and final step is to delete all our pictures from the cloud, as I've deleted them from my phone months ago.

Now at NC 282, I'm still angry and still hurt. I will never write her again as she really doesn't deserve my time or attention (I guess this is my anger talking? But it's also true of course), but I have no doubt that this was not the "best" way to detach.

It's clear to me that not staying in contact at all was 100% the right thing to do, but the way I've done it was completely wrong.

What I should have done, and what I suggest you do, is declare the NC coming in advance and to do it with the knowledge of the ex, or even as an "agreement" between the two parties, perhaps to the extent of agreeing to blocking each other, for a period of two years. It should be a mutual agreed upon and declared strategy of detachment.

By doing this I would have made it clear to her that this is not me and her "on a break" but that this decision that she is taking for us is final and will be the end of our relationship. It would have also set the time-frame to become LC friends again and it's simply the right mature thing to do and how a relationship between two adults should end.

Otherwise you spiral into anger and hurt, building higher and higher walls and digging deeper and deeper holes.

I'm better off with her not being in my life, that's clear and obvious. But I would have saved myself a lot of anguish by doing it more "maturely" in an organised / structured/ orderly fashion and it's my recommendation that you do the same.

Why wouldn't I write her and "explain" the NC now? It's far too late for me. I feel I've built such walls of hate and disappointment that going back now to contact her, only to say that I am NOT contacting her, would be completely idiotic and counter productive for my healing process.
 
As a side note, I have a way of knowing that she's still checking up on me, reading content that I publish on a certain site. She sometimes goes back and reads articles weeks after they've been written, but I've now stopped writing those too, so that link has died as well. She continued reading them well after the 6 months of NC point. Probably me going NC like that has made me desirable again but guess what? It's too late.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I wish all of you good luck in your detachment process.  

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MiserableMostly

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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2017, 03:00:04 AM »

I'm going through this right now as well. First off, I totally agree with not using 'discard'. It's not good for people who already have low self-worth to feel that they've been 'discarded.' The truth is no one has the power to discard anyone else. Each person only has the control over themselves. With BPDs the discard has nothing to do with the other person really. It's all about them and trying to cope with their fears and anxieties. It should not be taken personally.

I'm in the same position as you mostly in terms of NC. Although when we broke up I told her that I was blocking her on everything but that the door was open for her to contact me. I'm now 13 weeks in and it's been dead silent. That really angers me. To go from being so close to now she's just totally fine never talking to me again. It's so angering. I don't know what to do about resolving this anger. But I do know that it isn't good that I'm angry that she hasn't at least tried to contact me. It makes me feel worthless, honestly.
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2017, 08:32:44 AM »

I am not as far into NC, and we're in fact LC as we work together so it is inevitable we'll have some contact.

We did agree to disengage, though, as subject to the odd misstep, it has worked ok over the last month or two. We haven't blocked each other, I simply told her I needed some space and (probably with her go kicking in) she said she did as well as we keep getting back together and we're both to blame. She has reached out to me a few times to keep tabs. I just suck those up and recognise them for what they are. If I no I am going to see her, I psych myself up before hand and remind myself I don't want to be with her. If we do have to communicate, I don't engage in chat or respond to her attempts to be friendly with anything that elicits a response. It's all very business like.

I do feel crap after I see her, but this if anything has encouraged me to not see her.

It's getting better and if you can't do a hard NC, then I can certainly recommend an agreed detachment, with their buy in (and probably your enforcement as they won't respect boundaries the way you do).
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 09:53:55 AM »

I use "broken up" and not "discarded" because to me this word has a very negative harsh tone to it. Discarded literally means "get rid of (someone or something) as no longer useful or desirable" and I don't think that this is a healthy way to look at what we've all gone through. I actually think that the whole community should stop using that word.

I have to disagree. 'Broken up' does not capture my experience with my ex. ':)iscarded' expresses what happened and the level of hurt that I felt. He was looking for another partner behind my back, and after he had got into a new relationship, he told me very nonchalantly that he was with this other person now and that he hoped I would stay his friend, because he "needed me." He was so casual about it all. He reacted to my grief as though it was something alien. I felt just like a broken unwanted toy or an empty Pepsi can that had been thrown from a moving car, and I was crushed by his calculated behaviour - he had taken good care to make sure he had the shiny new toy before he told me we were over. Much later I found out that he had asked at least one other woman out while he was with me, and she had said no - and comparing the timing, I realised that he had reacted to her refusal by spontaneously inviting me to go on his week-long holiday with him, telling me how precious I was to him, initiating lots of sex, etc. I was obviously the comfort blanket because he was feeling horrible at being turned down. And there was I under the impression that I was his girlfriend and I mattered to him.

I've had a break-up before. That ex and I are still on very good terms. We don't see each other that often (we live in different cities), but we email from time to time, he introduced me to his fiancee, and I'm invited to their wedding next year. He and I parted because we had different priorities and goals in life and it wasn't going to work out for us long term, and while we were both a bit sore for a while, there were no hard feelings towards each other - we accepted that sometimes life goes this way. His fiancee is lovely and I'm happy for them both. I wish them all the best. That was a break up. What my BPD ex did to me needs its own word.

At the time I felt crushed, like I physically couldn't breathe. I also did feel powerless then, like I'd had no say in any of this and no control over the situation - when I went NC I felt like I was crawling away because my spine had finally snapped under the pressure (he wanted to use me as emotional support when he'd self-harmed after fights with his new girlfriend, which I couldn't cope with) rather than making a choice to walk away. Now I see I did make a choice. It's been almost two years since then and I'm very proud of myself for the hard and determined work I've put into getting better. Good friends have noticed positive changes in me - one told me that I seem much more assertive and self-assured. I feel it too. I had real problems with confidence before. But part of my power lies in choosing the words that fit my experience best, and 'discarded' is one of those words.
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2017, 12:28:18 PM »

Hey NCEA,

Sounds like you're making progress, but obviously there is still a lot of pain. Clearly, there is a lot of guilt and shame in your post too.

I have to say tho - I think you're being far, far too hard on yourself here.

'Should have' is great in hindsight, but if you'd possessed all this knowledge back then - you'd probably never have gotten into the relationship in the first place... .?

I think you did the best you could - given the circumstances.

The past is the past. We can't change it.
But tomorrow, is the first day of the rest of your life.


I use "broken up" and not "discarded" because to me this word has a very negative harsh tone to it. Discarded literally means "get rid of (someone or something) as no longer useful or desirable" and I don't think that this is a healthy way to look at what we've all gone through. I actually think that the whole community should stop using that word.

Though many of experiences are similar - they're not identical.
Many people have experienced a discard.
I think discard has a certain level of importance - anger is very important in for the non to experience, none of the other grieving emotions offer us self protection.

But I think you should just use whatever word suits you. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
I may post later the whole story of the relationship and how it ended

I've often wanted to sit down and write out my whole experience.
I made a few attempts in the aftermath.
Trying to do that in 1 go is tough - it drags up lots of emotions. It can send rumination into overdrive.

I've inadvertently written out a lot of the story in chunks, via answering questions here.
I think that may have been a better way to do it. For me.

It is interesting to look back on the writings I did put together in the Aftermath. And the diary entries etc.
It's quite astonishing to see how disordered my thinking was.

It's a veritable case study in FOG!

Can you relate to this? Could you elaborate, if so?

Excerpt
but I want to concentrate here on what I see as the best way to detach. I'm sure I'm not the one who "came up with it" and I may be repeating what others have reported already.

I'm currently as I said on day 282 NC. It does get a lot easier of course but I must say that I'm surprised by the strength of my feelings considering how long it has been, in addition to me being in a new and a much better relationship for months now.

I'm fully aware and accepting the fact that it will take no less than *two full years* to really get over it. Still, after so many months, I find myself thinking about my ex a lot, coming to this board to read stories, playing moments over and over in my head, cycling between anger an acceptance and pain.

I'm just around the 9 month mark myself I think.

I think this is quite normal - what you and I are experiencing.

I'm in a better relationship too - better except for the sex... .I think maybe that's why I still think of my ex more often than I had envisaged I would by now.

That's not to say it's was all about the sex, there was a deep emotional bond of course (or so I believed at the time!).

There are things I still miss from time to time. I feel like that's natural.

There's just as many times I'll experience gratitude for not having that disorder in my life anymore , for example I'll sit into the car before going to work - and a wave of freedom and relief will wash over me.

Do you experience this too?


Excerpt
The reason for this healing period being so long, and for it still being so difficult on me, is the fact that it was a "harsh" NC without the two of us actually agreeing on going on it.

When my ex told me over the phone that she'd like us to "go on a break" and that she wants to date other people (End of recycle #Who-Knows-What-Number-Depending-On-How-You-Count) I went into a week long campaign trying to convince her to give us a last chance and that at the minimum she respect me by agreeing to meet me face to face (we live in different cities).

You may view it differently of course - but this to me is a discard.

You may be the person who has to make the brave decision, but they are the entity who has made the relationship untenable.

My ex accused me of Domestic Violence - that to me, in retrospect, was a discard.

There was some recycling after this - but that was FOG related.
My ex begged relentlessly to take her back. To give it another shot.
And when I took her back - the nastiness was simply unfathomable.
Even when I tried to stay friends... .always the same pattern - 1 day espousing love and forgiveness, switch flicks and next day, the monster is unleashed.

Several months later, when the relationship with my replacement failed - she said she still loved me and attempted another recycle.
This was a mere 2 months after an attempted hit'n'run, which I reported to the police.

Did she really love me? Clearly, No.

She said the words, but her actions inexorably proved otherwise.


Excerpt
I saw the end of this cycle coming a few weeks earlier as when we spent a few days together I've noticed that she was on one of her narcissistic rage cycles, and as it was early spring/summer, when layers of clothing comes off, people go out dancing and drinking etc. All very predictable.

Thanks an v.interesting insight - thanks for that!

Think I just had a lightbulb moment

Excerpt
By way of emails and WhatsApp she refused trying us again or meeting me, becoming more and more harsh with my every attempt. Finally I wrote "fine, at least I know I tried. Have a nice week" and ended it there. She did not reply to this last message.

At this point I've assumed that we will stay friends to some extent or another as we've discussed our friendship many times and made it clear to each other that "whatever happens" we will always be there for each other.

I did not block her, did not send angry emails, none of that. I did not unfriend her from FB as I've already done that the previous round and we were not FB friends.

One day passed, another and another. 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 5 weeks, two months... .and nothing from her.

During this time different events happened, things that made me expect her to contact me, just to ask me how I was doing / to check up on me. (deadlines of projects, certain political events, etc). BUT... .nothing.

We went from communicating daily to nothing at all, just like that. OK maybe it was a discard   .

Yes.
To me, this is a discard.

It's a horrible reality to accept. It's so callous.


Excerpt
In the last couple of weeks, in my anger (it really does come and goes), I've deleted all our email correspondence and unfriended the few mutual FB friends that we did have (her friends). My next and final step is to delete all our pictures from the cloud, as I've deleted them from my phone months ago.

Now at NC 282, I'm still angry and still hurt. I will never write her again as she really doesn't deserve my time or attention (I guess this is my anger talking? But it's also true of course), but I have no doubt that this was not the "best" way to detach.

I think you've every right to feel hurt. And angry.

For me, the anger was like a clogged sink.

You work hard to unblock it. Only a little drains out at a time.

You have a new realisation, about some manipulation or some betrayal. It's like something throwing another litre of dirty water into the sink.

==

Do you know what anthropomorphism is? the attribution of human characteristics or behaviour to a god, animal, or object.

well, this will sound like a weird explanation... .but bear with me.

By October, after the last recycling attempt, I'd let go of a lot of the anger. Was moving on. Got into a healthy relationship.

Around December tho, she started a bit of a smear campaign against me on Social Media.

The anger returned, and then some.
It's very, very good that I joined bpdfamily around then - because it helped me to shift to healthier thinking and deeper understanding.

This was a bit of a breakthrough moment for me, in depersonalizing all that abuse and treachery - which was the key to letting go of so much of the anger. (I still experience anger from time to time, but much less intense)

Despite all my knowledge and understanding - I had still been assigning non-disordered behaviour and expectations and attributes to a heavily disordered person.

Once these things came into sync - which is really only quite recent - it helped immensely.





Excerpt
It's clear to me that not staying in contact at all was 100% the right thing to do, but the way I've done it was completely wrong.

What I should have done, and what I suggest you do, is declare the NC coming in advance and to do it with the knowledge of the ex, or even as an "agreement" between the two parties, perhaps to the extent of agreeing to blocking each other, for a period of two years. It should be a mutual agreed upon and declared strategy of detachment.

As I said, we've all had different experiences.

You may not feel this way of course - but you may have picked the safest strategy.


Excerpt
By doing this I would have made it clear to her that this is not me and her "on a break" but that this decision that she is taking for us is final and will be the end of our relationship. It would have also set the time-frame to become LC friends again and it's simply the right mature thing to do and how a relationship between two adults should end.

I think - again, you may be trying to attribute rational behaviour to an irrational individual.

I would have expected a very different outcome had you done that. More similar to what I experienced.
Her abandonment terror may have gone into overdrive.
She may have perceived your mature efforts - as an ultimatum. And shaming to her.


Excerpt
Otherwise you spiral into anger and hurt, building higher and higher walls and digging deeper and deeper holes.

Regardless of the outcome, there is always anger and hurt.
Even in a sane relationship.

But in a disordered relationship, with idealisation and devaluation - it's simply always going to be there, regardless of the method

Excerpt
I'm better off with her not being in my life, that's clear and obvious. But I would have saved myself a lot of anguish by doing it more "maturely" in an organised / structured/ orderly fashion and it's my recommendation that you do the same.

I think this is a stick you are using to beat yourself with.
I'd imagine this is generating a certain level of guilt and shame in you.

I really think you should realise, that you did the best you could, and have some compassion for yourself.

Excerpt
Why wouldn't I write her and "explain" the NC now? It's far too late for me. I feel I've built such walls of hate and disappointment that going back now to contact her, only to say that I am NOT contacting her, would be completely idiotic and counter productive for my healing process.

Could you elaborate on this?


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Dusi2591

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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2017, 03:22:51 PM »

Excerpt
As a side note, I have a way of knowing that she's still checking up on me, reading content that I publish on a certain site

NCEA, I've noticed a few people being certain they are still checking up on us, what makes you certain of this? it seems social media is pretty good at keeping people anonymous?

 
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NCEA
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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 07:12:42 AM »

NCEA, I've noticed a few people being certain they are still checking up on us, what makes you certain of this? it seems social media is pretty good at keeping people anonymous?

I used to manage a website and post articles weekly, once a week.  Users are subscribed to a mailing list and receive an email weekly, announcing the new content with a link to read it. It was a one year project so I don't really post or send any more emails at the moment but I still operate it.

This mailing system provides statistics such as how many emails are opened, who clicks on the links, when, how many times etc. Any mass email system provides such statistics:

https://mailchimp.com/features/reports/

On the first week of the last recycle she signed up to the mailing list and then read the emails and clicked on the links as soon as she received them.

As the recycle progressed and she started to lose interest she would only open the emails without clicking on the link, or sometimes would not open the emails at all. One week she would, on another wouldn't, then again open it... .

After she broke up with me she stopped opening the weekly emails completely.

But then 2-3 months later, the summer was over, and she started opening the emails again. First sporadically, then every week or every other week. Then sometimes she would click on the links as well, or would open an email that was sent 2-3 weeks ago.

Finally on the week before the very last one, she opened the same email three times. Once a few hours after it was sent, then the next day twice, with a few hours a part. She never opened the very last email.

I have a feeling that perhaps what triggered her opening these emails again is she emailing me and never receiving a response. But maybe she was just depressed, was out of another recycle with someone else, needing supply... .who knows?      

Seeing all this "email action" had set me back a few weeks in my progress, but, also, it was satisfying knowing that she does "remember" me or whatever.

Anyway, water under the bridge. I'm proud of my progress. What really helped me was a decision I made to *no matter what* not contact her for at least 1000 days and setting up a counter on my phone. It gave me a tangible goal to work towards and I think it's been really helpful.
 

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« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 10:34:15 AM »

What I should have done, and what I suggest you do, is declare the NC coming in advance and to do it with the knowledge of the ex, or even as an "agreement" between the two parties, perhaps to the extent of agreeing to blocking each other, for a period of two years. It should be a mutual agreed upon and declared strategy of detachment.

Breakups are so much more messy and often both partners are struggling with doubt or guilt. I'm not sure this is a realistic view of human nature. Many breakups tend to evolve... .the 5 or 10th recycle that doesn't renew itself.

I think we would like to think we can control this stuff and insulate ourselves from the hurt, but... .

Anyway, water under the bridge. I'm proud of my progress. What really helped me was a decision I made to *no matter what* not contact her for at least 1000 days and setting up a counter on my phone. It gave me a tangible goal to work towards and I think it's been really helpful.

You mentioned wishing you had handled the first 280 more maturely - that's past. But you have the next 280 to look at now.

No contact is an early crutch that some need to break away... .but it becomes meaningless when the other party is not trying to reach us and after months have transpired. I'm not saying that you should contact her. I am suggesting that you need to move beyond counting days on NC and process and grieve this relationship - let it go. You haven't fully done that yet.

I'd also encourage you to not read anything into her reading your promotional mail. I certainly wouldn't go so far as to think she was contacting you, failing, and turning to your promotional mail as "connection". She knew how to reach you and could get a message to you. You're blocking was not iron-clad by any means.

You say you hate her. That's a lot of emotion and a lot of connection. A better target than amassing 1,000 or 10,000 days of no contact (whatever that even means at this point) - I might make a list of how connected you are and score yourself on each on a scale of 1-10. Work with you mind and heart, to disconnect, and re-score yourself the first of each month.

You will know your detached when you can see what it was that attracted you to her and you can also see why the relationship continually failed and that this doesn't drive visceral responses.
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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 10:59:51 AM »

Skip,

She was/is filtered "straight to trash" 95% of the NC period. She doesn't know she's filtered. She doesn't have my number. So I'm not sure why you say "She knew how to reach you and could get a message to you". No, she can't and couldn't.

Also if she tried once or twice and didn't get a response, she wouldn't "humiliate" herself by sending another email and another and another... .it's not her style.

She also tried to contact me during the first NC period, she sent a text message to an old number of mine. The first thing she asked me after we started talking again was "did you get my text message?" (I didn't) then from another story I figured that she sent me that message when things were falling apart with my replacement.

She's filtered because I don't want to get a "my mother has cancer" "I just had an abortion" "I miss you" or any other kind of manipulative email. Why would I? Don't want to deal with it, don't want to get my emotions played with, don't want to see her face.

A few months ago she changed her Facebook profile to something similar to this: www.littleheartsbooks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/quote-help-me.jpg

(but without the text). A "crying for help" image. Who the f knows who this was aimed at. I don't care.

Anyway, yes, after 1000 or 10,000 days it won't matter any more, and I guess that's the point. I gave myself a hard target, as a crutch... .it also helped me the first time around, then it was a 100 days target  Smiling (click to insert in post)   if I would have made it 1000 days back then, I probably wouldn't have been here by now.

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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2017, 12:33:08 PM »


I think you did the best you could - given the circumstances.

The past is the past. We can't change it.
But tomorrow, is the first day of the rest of your life.

infjEpic is correct in that you cannot change your past and shouldn't be too hard on yourself for making mistakes because of lack of knowledge. To expanc on his message though, while you can't change your past, you can learn from it so that you do not repeat the pattern(s).

She was/is filtered "straight to trash" 95% of the NC period. She doesn't know she's filtered. She doesn't have my number. So I'm not sure why you say "She knew how to reach you and could get a message to you". No, she can't and couldn't.

But, that wouldn't stop her from creating another email address, showing up where you are at, or any number of other ways that a person who truly wants to contact will utilize.

I'm of the opinion that your checking the promotional email stats to see if she's opened the email or clicked the links is not actually maintaining strict NC. There is still a form of contact there because it is still a means for you to keep some connection to her.

True NC also includes not checking their social media, talking to their friends and/or family, or any other means of keeping up with them and what they may or may not be doing.

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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 01:22:06 PM »


Why would she use another email address if she doesn't know that her regular email address is being filtered to the trash? She has no idea I'm not reading / receiving them. She'd think I'm ignoring her.

We live in different countries and cities, and she doesn't have my address. I'm not sure why it's so important for you to convince me that she did not try to contact me.

No, it's not "strict" NC, the same way that coming to this forum and writing about your ex and discussing the relationship isn't NC.

Good luck with your detachment.
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 01:45:43 PM »

I'm not sure why it's so important for you to convince me that she did not try to contact me.

It's not important to any of us... .we are just giving you advice.

You have a long history here and many of us have followed it. You have had your fair share of conflict with members... .I'd encourage you to be more open... .think about what people say (really think about it)... .decide if it applies to you.

When people break their leg, they go through the stage with the crutches... .but if they stay on crutches for too long, those devices degrade their healing.

That is the message we are telling you.

Think about what you are doing. You wanted to stay in contact. She didn't so much, so you hate her.

You blocked her (no contact) when you really wanted her to contact you (but she wasn't) and then tracked her contact with your email advertisements as a proxy for what she was doing/thinking and from that you are imaging that she probably did contact you and felt snubbed by you, which seems somewhat satisfying to you.

When we say, if she really wanted to reach you she could, it upsets you.

Why? Does it break the satisfaction that you snubbed her back?

To shift gears... .why do you hate her? You wanted to be friends and stay in contact - she let that drift off - why does that make you hate her?



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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2017, 02:35:03 PM »

"if they stay on crutches for too long, those devices degrade their healing."

When I read the "literature" people speak about it taking about 2 years to "really" get over it. It's been only 9 months for me.

So I really don't feel that filtering to the trash, for 2.5 years (1000 days) is "too much of a crutch", and again I'm not sure why you're trying to convince me otherwise. What are you saying, that I should not have done it at all? Then I would have either be very angry (knowing that she really did NOT contact me) OR would fall into going into communication with her again.

The "filter to the trash" option allows me to live in a grey zone, where I don't know if she tried to contact me or not AND I don't need to receive any unwanted communication. Best of two worlds.

My guiding principle here is actually something that I learned on the board: "think about yourself". I'm only thinking about myself here... .I just don't want to hear from her anymore, period, and hence the filter.

The whole story about she opening the subscription emails is just an interesting side nugget... .not even my closest friends opened these emails in such rates. I just thought it would be a "fun" story for the board.

And for "why" I was attracted to her - she's unstable, uncontrollable, a "victim", oozing sexuality... .no mystery there. I'm hyperactive and need excitement.  I've been on Ritalin when I was 6 years old, in the 80s. My current girlfriend is the complete opposite, I'm learning how to find excitement in other ways. 

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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2017, 04:16:15 PM »

When I read the "literature" people speak about it taking about 2 years to "really" get over it. It's been only 9 months for me.

We all heal at our own pace.

So I really don't feel that filtering to the trash, for 2.5 years (1000 days) is "too much of a crutch", and again I'm not sure why you're trying to convince me otherwise. What are you saying, that I should not have done it at all? Then I would have either be very angry (knowing that she really did NOT contact me) OR would fall into going into communication with her again.

I don't think that anyone is saying that you shouldn't have filtered the emails or is trying to convince you not to do so. I know that I'm certainly not doing that. What I was getting at, and what I think that Skip was trying to elude to, is the motivation behind it rather than the act itself.

I think that it's great that you recognize your own limitations here. It's important that we are able to do so. It helps us recognize not only our weaknesses, but also our strengths. We can only truly know who we are by admitting where we are weak.

But, the above quote begs the question of how filtering her email address keeps you from contacting her? The answer is that it doesn't. You are doing that all by yourself. That's where I see the "crutch" part that Skip made reference to. You recognized your limitation, maybe now you can recognize your strength?

And for "why" I was attracted to her - she's unstable, uncontrollable, a "victim", oozing sexuality... .no mystery there. I'm hyperactive and need excitement.  I've been on Ritalin when I was 6 years old, in the 80s. My current girlfriend is the complete opposite, I'm learning how to find excitement in other ways. 

I could have written that. In fact, I'm pretty sure that I have written about my being a high sensation seeker. Like you, I am also learning how to find excitement in healthier ways (at least I hope that yours are healthier than running to relationships with disordered people). I think that it's great that you can see the motivation behind the attraction. Can you also see that it wasn't about your ex at all?
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2017, 04:50:56 PM »

But, the above quote begs the question of how filtering her email address keeps you from contacting her? The answer is that it doesn't. You are doing that all by yourself. That's where I see the "crutch" part that Skip made reference to. You recognized your limitation, maybe now you can recognize your strength?

Yes, I'm strong enough not to contact her. Counter app or no counter app.

But I'm probably not strong enough to ignore a "Hey, how are you? You were right, we are perfect for each other, and my dad has cancer, and my mom is in hospital, and I REALLY need to speak with you because I miss you, I just need to hear your voice, and I've not been dating anyone for 1 year, and I've been to therapy and I'm all good now."

... .and then all hell will break loose... .       

That's the last thing I need in my life right now.

That's EXACTLY how it went last time. We were NC 4 months, I texted her "how are you doing?" and she instantly wrote me back: "call me, I need to hear your voice" then I called and her first words to me were "You were right, it was special between us, I'm not dating anyone, I decided to not have sex for a year, I had terrible last few months." and wham a new recycle started.

The other option is that she'll write me "Hey how are you? I have a boyfriend and I'm 4 months pregnant" and then, not instantly but on a moment of weakness, I'll just lash out at her, telling her what an awful ___ty person she is... .

I rather keep the filter on.

As for "Can you also see that it wasn't about your ex at all?" - you need two to tango. It's always about both yourself and the other person.
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2017, 05:06:33 PM »

Oh, I'm sorry if I came across as suggesting that you remove the filter. I think that it's smart that you have it in place. As I said, I think that it's good that you recognize your limitations.

I agree that it takes two to tango, and two to take part in a relationship.

As I said, I'm also a high sensation seeker. I used to run to relationships with people who fit the description of your ex. I would thrive on the excitement of all of it and feel alive. But, the thing is, it never was about the woman. It was about using her to fulfill my need for the adrenaline, endorphins, and dopamine. The women in my past could easily be interchanged. It never was about them. It was always about my need to fulfill my own desires.

When I was able to recognize that, I was able to start changing it.
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2017, 05:49:09 PM »

why do you hate her? You wanted to be friends and stay in contact - she let that drift off - why does that make you hate her?

Why do you?
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2017, 08:29:49 PM »

Why do you?

You can breakup with someone with grace, kindness and respect or you can do it cruelly, purposefully causing pain, suffering, and humiliation.

Whenever I brake up a relationship I always know that it is my duty to reach out. First one week later, then two weeks after that, then after a month, then after maybe 2-3 months and finally, once or twice a year. Really, this is high school material. Common sense and common courtesy.

I accepted the breakup. She had the right to break-up with me.

But the following months of indifference were meant to cause pain and humiliation. She left the relationship "with the upper hand" and she indulged in it, purposefully not reaching out.

It's a psychological "game", the same as not answering my "have a nice week" message. That is without redemption, and that is why I hate her. I know that she's playing such games because she had told me how she was doing it to other people.

"I'm a monster"
"I'm a Nazi"
"I like to humiliate men"
"I like to manipulate"

It is one thing to be unkind or ungrateful. But to cause pain on purpose, that's a whole other level of moral corruption. And when it's aimed at me? Forget it... .

So when I realised that this was what she was doing to me, two months in, and for the second time, I've decided that she was dead to me and had put the filter up.

P.S - Even on Seinfeld they spoke about "the upper hand" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aIG2EJzE4o

George's behaviour is completely psychotic. The thing is that that's a TV show, and some people are like that in real life. 
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2017, 10:28:51 PM »


It's clear to me that not staying in contact at all was 100% the right thing to do, but the way I've done it was completely wrong.

What I should have done, and what I suggest you do, is declare the NC coming in advance and to do it with the knowledge of the ex, or even as an "agreement" between the two parties, perhaps to the extent of agreeing to blocking each other, for a period of two years. It should be a mutual agreed upon and declared strategy of detachment.

By doing this I would have made it clear to her that this is not me and her "on a break" but that this decision that she is taking for us is final and will be the end of our relationship. It would have also set the time-frame to become LC friends again and it's simply the right mature thing to do and how a relationship between two adults should end.

Otherwise you spiral into anger and hurt, building higher and higher walls and digging deeper and deeper holes.

I'm better off with her not being in my life, that's clear and obvious. But I would have saved myself a lot of anguish by doing it more "maturely" in an organised / structured/ orderly fashion and it's my recommendation that you do the same.

Respectfully I would disagree, at least in suggesting that it's what others should do, as different people handle break ups differently.

I've had a number of relationships with BPD women, and have never been painted black, or treated particularly badly. Sure, we've had arguments, where I've been made out to be the bad guy, but that's never lasted more than 24 hours. When they've ended, regardless of who ended it, I've always maintained low contact, either responding in a friendly way if they reach out, or reaching out myself after a few days if they don't. If they ended it, I always accepted it calmly, and told them that I respected their decision, even if I didn't agree with it. If they reacted badly, or angrily, I'd leave them to rant, but if they went too far I'd quickly point out that they'd crossed a line into being disrespectful. As a result, they've all seen me as a friend, who they respect and feel they can talk to, without being judged.

A lot dumpers, BPD or otherwise, will disappear without contact, not because they're cruel and heartless, but because frankly it feels awkward to try and be friends with someone you know wants more than you do. In that sense it can be trying to be cruel to be kind. Few people are truly malicious, despite how it may seem, and those who are, are often far less happy than they try to portray, so a little understanding and compassion goes a long way, even if it only makes you feel better about yourself.

I also disagree with the formal announcement of a NC period, whether that be for 2 years or otherwise. If I were on the receiving end of that I'd just feel that someone was clutching at straws, by trying to take control of a situation they'd already lost control of. In fact it would have entirely the opposite effect, and make me feel even more in control. All you're doing is trying to gain the "upper hand" that you lost, with the same intention as her, by saying that you wont reach out for two years.

One thing I have learned is that many women seem biologically programmed to despise weakness, either real or perceived, and BPD women have a keener nose for it, and will prey on it more ferociously. Maybe it's because they need strength so much more that they attack when they see a lack of it. Sometimes they even do it to throw you a lifeline, to see if you will and can stand up to them, and can take their bs in your stride; and when you don't, and you show that you're rattled by it, they feel disappointed. Either way, women can lose their attraction for a man for a variety of reasons, but how they treat you after a break up is largely due to whether they still have any respect for you. If they do you can feel it, and it's usually all good, but if they don't then it will seem like they never cared.

The other danger of setting such a fixed NC point, especially one so long, is that I feel that it actually makes it harder for you to let go. Try as you might, you won't be able to get that date out of your head and so, whilst you can forget things momentarily, the nearer the deadline approaches, the more it, and she, will start filling your thoughts again. After all, when it comes, do you reach out? Do you expect her to, do you think she'll just be waiting for the day that she can speak to you again? What if she doesn't, how will that make you feel? All this will start filling your mind as the two year deadline approaches, making it just as fresh and bringing you back to square one.

Or, what if she does? My guess is that you'll be just as vulnerable to any recycle attempt, precisely because you've made such a big deal about it.

In my opinion, provided there are no hostilities, and you can control your emotions, I would suggest leaving the door open and carrying on low contact. If you can't control your emotions, then I agree, NC is probably best, but without formalising it, and without a deadline. Just don't contact her, assume she wont contact you, and ignore her if she does. If she persists then maybe you could ask her not to, but say you'll be in touch if and when you feel ready, and leave it at that.

Just my opinion of course, based on my own experiences, that have left me feeling in control of my own destiny, whilst managing to keep things cordial, so make of it what you will.
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2017, 09:48:46 AM »

My uBPDexgf don't contact each other, and it is not out of cruelness, it is out of respect. We both agree that our r/s was toxic. We both know that hearing from and seeing one another has the potential to inflict pain and interfere with our lives. We have both moved on and see little to no benefit in continued contact.

As I noted earlier in this thread, we all grieve and heal at our own pace. Being angry is a necessary part of the process. We just don't want to live in the anger for too long; it is damaging.

If I understand your post correctly, you're angry because she did not do what you expected her to do: contact you after telling you that the relationship was over to check on you and tell you that she still cares about you.

Have you considered why you feel that you have the right to impose such a duty on another?
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2017, 10:14:45 AM »

Have you considered why you feel that you have the right to impose such a duty on another?

OK... .we've now entered the Bizarro World of circular argumentation, where I'm not allowed to be disappointed and angry when someone who I once cared for behaves in a way that I find offending.

"Why?"  Because I have my set of values and morals and expectations, and it's a decision I can choose to make, despite what apparently some people on some internet forum think.

Have a good day... . 
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2017, 10:47:08 AM »

Hi NCEA,

Really sorry to hear you're going through a rough time. I understand your anger. My BPD-ex destroyed alot of things and my self-worth before she left. While part of me wished that she would come back to check up on me or feel remorse the smart part of me also realizes that this would be bad for me.

I'm not sure what you mean by circular argumentation in the topics discussed by various members above?

From what I have read no-one said you weren't allowed to be angry and disappointed. All of us are at various stages of this grief. I hurt every minute of everyday now. What this forum is about is providing differing viewpoints and support for eachother by providing different opinions and interpretations of very complex psychological processes. And in this post you have created a very interesting discussion, and I thank you for that.

Like others have said, I think I would suggest you take a look at your expectations for her actions? You understand the disorder now, what would make you think with what you know that your ex would act like an emotionally healthy person?

It's okay to be upset that they aren't, but to expect them to change would go against a nature of a disorder that is impossible to heal without significant therapy; which I am guessing your ex has not done.

Furthermore, it looks to me as if everyone is basically saying that there are different ways to go NC, LC, or some other form of communication based on the specific context of their relationships.

As per your original post, you said there was one specific way to act. Other people are just showing their perspective, which may be different then your own.

As I see it there are multiple perspectives and there is no one right way to go through this process from what I see. In my case strict NC was the only way as she was violent and abusive at the end. As hard as it was to end all communication without closure (which I would have very much liked) I knew there was no way I was ever going to get through to her. If she really wants to physically show up a my door she can, but she hasn't so she isn't really interested. Therefore, I have to make peace on my own terms. This is what makes breakups with BPD partners so difficult, which is why I am on this forum.


Hang in there and keep posting! We are here for each other in a way that most friends and family could never understand. Take care!
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2017, 11:13:29 AM »

Great post Marti, thanks 
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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2017, 11:21:04 AM »

NCEA, I can completely understand your frustration about not getting what you want. I think that we all can. None of us would be here if we that were not the case.

I also think that we all recognize this and are offering you support as you go through the grieving process. One of the ways that we do that is by asking probing questions and helping each other through the SELF-INQUIRY and the process of realizing what our feelings about the situation are telling us.

I think that you were right on target when you answered my query about why you felt it is acceptable to impose a duty on another human being with:

Because I have my set of values and morals and expectations, and it's a decision I can choose to make

That sounds like an extremely honest answer. You recognize that you are projecting your set of values and morals on another person who does not share those same things. But, why be angry with and hate her because she does not share the your beliefs and does not rise up to the level that you find acceptable? What is behind that?

I know that it's hard to look at ourselves and accept the reality of all of it. I fought with others, lashed out in anger and frustration, and condemned them because I believed that they were wrong. They didn't know me. They hadn't experienced what I had in life. I felt that I had to defend myself against the very people who were trying to help me, so I do get it.
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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2017, 01:18:43 PM »

Whenever I brake [break] up a relationship I always know that it is my duty to reach out. First one week later, then two weeks after that, then after a month, then after maybe 2-3 months and finally, once or twice a year. Really, this is high school material. Common sense and common courtesy.

I think this is an impressive standard to live to. But is it one we can expect from others.

I have ongoing relationships with some of my exes and not with others. There are pros and cons to these things. I liked that fact that with those who believe in clean breaks, I never had to worry about ex-boyriends because they put their past in the past. I respect their decision to "move forward and not look back", even if it is different that my style.

I think it might help to look at how many relationships end.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

The gist of this article is that relationship breakdown is often a slow growing resentment and breakdown in the ability to communicate that consumes one or both parties. So often, at the end, there is not a very good basis to carry on. If a person is resentful and unheard, are they going to want to chat? Some won't and it's reasonable.

This makes sense, right?

Should we hate someone for breaking up?  Or is the feeling of "hate" something we go to in an effort to avoid our true feelings - hurt and rejection and unworthy.

Is healing about fueling the "hate" or grieving the feelings of  hurt, rejection and unworthiness?
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2017, 02:46:23 PM »


But, why be angry with and hate her because she does not ... .rise up to the level that you find acceptable? What is behind that?

Let's say I had a daughter and my best friend would sexually assault her. Would it be OK if I'd be angry with him, because he did not behave in the level I find acceptable?

Yes? Why? What's the difference? Who sets the line of moral judgement? And where is the line crossed?

I'm not a robot. I can get hurt, disappointed, angry and even hate. It's not like I'm manifesting these emotions in seeking to hurt her. All I did was filter her emails out to help me with detaching.

I guess my anger and hate and disappointment, whatever the emotion is, has a lot to do with the loss of the friendship. Even someone with the emotional intelligence of a 12 years old would know that our friendship would not survive another "ugly" breakup... .but she went ahead and did it anyway.

Yesterday I checked the statistics again. My current girlfriend opened 100% of the emails but my ex's click rate is actually 2% higher than hers. So, don't tell me that she was not seeking contact... .she was simply too dumb, and incapable of engineering a healthy breakup.
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2017, 02:58:09 PM »

Let's say I had a daughter and my best friend would sexually assault her. Would it be OK if I'd be angry with him, because he did not behave in the level I find acceptable?

Would your anger be because he disappointed you, or because he hurt your daughter? The two are very different things.

I guess my anger and hate and disappointment, whatever the emotion is, has a lot to do with the loss of the friendship. Even someone with the emotional intelligence of a 12 years old would know that our friendship would not survive another "ugly" breakup... .but she went ahead and did it anyway.

And, here again, you appear very honest with the underlying truth. Thank you for that.

Being hurt because of the loss of the friendship is completely understandable. I went through all of that as well, and I'm pretty sure that most of us here can say the same.

I think that these feelings are the ones that Skip was alluding to when he wrote:

Should we hate someone for breaking up?  Or is the feeling of "hate" something we go to in an effort to avoid our true feelings - hurt and rejection and unworthy.

Is healing about fueling the "hate" or grieving the feelings of  hurt, rejection and unworthiness?

Why do you continue to check the stats? Does it provide you with some soothing of the hurt to know that she is still checking?
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2017, 03:09:40 PM »

Is the inverse true? If she had tracking software and saw that you were monitoring her reading of your ads would that mean:

1. you desire contact; and
2. you're simply too dumb, and incapable of handing the breakup in a more mature manner?

Probably not, right?  Being cool (click to insert in post)

Yes, the idea is to flip the script , and give the ST to them .

Isn't this what its all about? She didn't want to have contact after the relationship ended so you have engineered all this so you feel that you are "flipping the script".

Why do you continue to check the stats? Does it provide you with some soothing of the hurt to know that she is still checking?

Is your hope here that she is feeling the pain you felt. You win? That's why 1,000 days.  The ad tracker is a proof proxy of her struggling with being rejected by you?

Is this your healing pathway?
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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2017, 03:15:43 PM »

Why do you continue to check the stats? Does it provide you with some soothing of the hurt to know that she is still checking?

Yes, 100%. I have an ego, and it was hurt. I'm trying not to have an ego but guess what, I'm human. I've even been to an Eckhart Tolle seminar in Norway, how many of you can say that? 

As you repeatedly say yourself, I'm very honest and self aware.

1. you desire contact; and
2. you're simply too dumb, and incapable of handing the breakup in a more mature manner?

No, I don't desire contact. I think if I desired contact, at the minimum I would have removed the filter, and I could have simply contact her, right? The breakup was not of my making, so I could have not handled it differently. I did everything I could to create a healthy breakup, including wanting to fly to another country so we could meet and do it face to face. Her answer was "I'm too busy".


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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2017, 04:28:07 PM »

I'm not a robot. I can get hurt, disappointed, angry and even hate. It's not like I'm manifesting these emotions in seeking to hurt her. All I did was filter her emails out to help me with detaching.

I guess my anger and hate and disappointment, whatever the emotion is, has a lot to do with the loss of the friendship. Even someone with the emotional intelligence of a 12 years old would know that our friendship would not survive another "ugly" breakup... .but she went ahead and did it anyway.

Yesterday I checked the statistics again. My current girlfriend opened 100% of the emails but my ex's click rate is actually 2% higher than hers. So, don't tell me that she was not seeking contact... .she was simply too dumb, and incapable of engineering a healthy breakup.


I can completely understand your hurt, anger and disappointment. However, given that you still feel this angry after 9 months, it's hard to see how you might be successfully detaching.

I read somewhere once that feelings and attachment are often linked to "investment". In other words, the more you invest in someone, whether that be time, money, emotions, or thoughts, the more your subconscious is tricked into how important that person is to you. It possibly explains why it's those who appear to have given the most who seem to find it hardest to detach, as opposed to those who've invested relatively little, and can walk away much more easily.

Checking your ex's click rate is an investment of your time and thoughts, as is drawing conclusions about her motives, and so in some ways that makes it even harder to detach, as you're maintaining and growing a mental and emotional investment in her.

Perhaps you could try not checking for a week, and then upping it to two weeks and growing from there; as to detach fully you really need to get her out of your head. Of course you can't prevent random thoughts popping up, but you can stop doing things that might trigger them and keeping her in your mind.
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