Feeling Really Down Tonight

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I know my situation isn't that bad, relatively speaking. I'm not literally trapped. I could chose to leave. I could chose to stop fantasizing about a relationship that will never happen. I have a job that pays well, and I have a skill set that's marketable even if I didn't have a job. There's no physical abuse. My D3 just told me she loves me, and she's sitting next to me singing and playing.

But I'm caught in this rut, this seemingly impossible space to get out of. Earlier today, I was demoted to "all bad" again, and some part of me must be agreeing with it! Why? Why would I agree?

I couldn't help but try and fight back - I tried saying "I'm a GOOD person! I do GOOD things!" and that just opened things up for further tear downs. And really, a big part of why I was fighting back was to try and convince MYSELF that I'm good.

She left to take her class a few hours ago, but she hasn't stopped texting things like "You belittle me. You humiliate me. Your games are a part of that. People don't do those kinds of things to someone they consider an equal." "I don't think you are willing to expand your mind and worldview to change." "It's like being in the car knowing you're about to crash us on purpose in slow-mo."

I just wanted to get this out there. I know it's normal to feel depressed after dealing with these things for so long, but it just feels so relentless. I know lots of people reading this can relate.

Thanks for listening.

[DaddyBear77]

I know my situation isn't that bad, relatively speaking. I'm not literally trapped. I could chose to leave. I could chose to stop fantasizing about a relationship that will never happen. I have a job that pays well, and I have a skill set that's marketable even if I didn't have a job. There's no physical abuse. My D3 just told me she loves me, and she's sitting next to me singing and playing.

But I'm caught in this rut, this seemingly impossible space to get out of. Earlier today, I was demoted to "all bad" again, and some part of me must be agreeing with it! Why? Why would I agree?

I couldn't help but try and fight back - I tried saying "I'm a GOOD person! I do GOOD things!" and that just opened things up for further tear downs. And really, a big part of why I was fighting back was to try and convince MYSELF that I'm good.

She left to take her class a few hours ago, but she hasn't stopped texting things like "You belittle me. You humiliate me. Your games are a part of that. People don't do those kinds of things to someone they consider an equal." "I don't think you are willing to expand your mind and worldview to change." "It's like being in the car knowing you're about to crash us on purpose in slow-mo."

I just wanted to get this out there. I know it's normal to feel depressed after dealing with these things for so long, but it just feels so relentless. I know lots of people reading this can relate.

Thanks for listening.

[NXR]

I'm in the same boat as you. It's a rollercoaster and I just can't find the willpower to jump off, even though I can without injury. Heck, I don't even have kids and I'm still unable to cut loose. And my spouse is abit blunter with the insults. And our world views are frankly so different that I don't even need to convince myself that I'm good - some of the things he says and his tendency to stereotype and lump individuals into groups is so repulsive to me that I don't doubt my own morals- of course, he can also switch on the full-court charm and play the martyr card like no other. So why do we stay with these people? I don't know, but if it's any solace, you're not alone.

[DearHusband]

Ah the hypocrisy of BPD. You belittle. You put down. Sure you do. The truth is that most of us in relationships with a BPD partner are belittled and put down a lot, but the minute we say anything in retaliation once our limits get breached, we're the bad guys. But, we did just lose our cool, so maybe they are right. In their own head, they are. And we don't think to go after someone when we are upset. It's too foreign. So, if they do it, it must be because we made them really mad.

All our fault. Except it isn't. 

[Notwendy]

When you "fought back" saying you were a good person, that was JADE. You may ask why can't you defend yourself that way? You can, but using JADE is like throwing gasoline on the drama fire and escalates the situation.

There are different ways to deal with this. One is to believe you are a good person. Her saying this doesn't make it true. When we defend such statements, we give them validity. If I told you that you were a green elephant, would you feel the need to prove to me that you are not, or are you certain you are not one? If you could be certain you are a good person, then her statements would feel as "emotional" as if she was calling you an elephant and you might just think that was nutty.

She can say whatever she wants to you. The issue for you is that you react to it, defend yourself, and get upset. This gives her the power to get you to react to her. This fuels the drama. What if you just didn't react emotionally at all? It takes two to have these conversations. If you don't talk back, it gets boring.

The other part of this is that you put up with it. People will do to us what we let them. You are the wage earner in the family. Not that this should mean you have power over her, but the power in the relationship now is that she owns it. You can stand up for your own value and contribution to the family, but it would take some courage on your part- and it is our own fears that are hard for us to face.

I used to tolerate this kind of thing. I wondered why, but if I was honest, it seemed familiar to me. It hurt my feelings but in the strangest way it felt comforting- because it was familiar. This was the relationship model I grew up with with my BPD mother. I don't know if I believed I deserved to be treated better, or if I chose familiar over something different. Whatever the reason is, I had to realize the issue was not so much with the other person and their behavior, but me- I was allowing it.

[michel71]

WELL SAID NOTWENDY... .

I JADED and continue to JADE way too much and we know how much this fuels their fire when we "take the bait". And nothing ever changes. We still don't get through to them. They will never have their lightbulb moment because they already had it and it is ALL ABOUT THEM and THEY ARE ALWAYS RIGHT and we are devils.

My special way of JADEing is to say something differently hoping it will finally resonate with my uBPDw. I have tried speaking softly, emphatically, loudly, succinctly, dramatically, with tears, with anger, with love, pleading, whining, hyperventilating, red face look of complete desperation... .IT DOES NOT MATTER. I have tried emailing it, writing it in a note, texting it. IT DOES NOT MATTER. DOES NOT MATTER. DOES NOT MATTER.

Now I know there are tools. And I have not been too successful with them. And I know that the tools have helped many change their relationships for the better so I have to point that out. For me it was a NO WIN. NO WAY.

I know the desire to just scream out that you are a good person. Mine will never see me that way. I was painted black and never went white again. I get my validation from my friends, some of whom I have known for over 30 years. They know me. This woman of only 6 years now does NOT. She can not. She is disordered. Full stop.

Most importantly we have to validate ourselves. It has to come from us. We are worthy and we have to believe that.

[ortac77]

I echo both previous postings, lately I have come to realise how 'JADE' does not work and how I have given away my power to somebody whose disordered thinking cannot see me for the person that I am.

Over the past few months I have stopped trying to JADE, its a struggle when your buttons are constantly pushed and it has left me very emotional and stressed, luckily I have a few supportive friends and Al-Anon to give me the support that I need. Through Therapy now I am working on self-compassion, I really did not realise for a long time how low this illness had dragged me down, I am slowly discovering who I am.

Of course this change does not suit my pwBPD who is ever more desperate to re-engage me in the disordered thinking. During the past week I have ben accused of all manner of 'dark deeds' - probably familiar to most on these boards!

I have not engaged with these accusations nor denied them simply refused to discuss and got on with whatever else I have ben doing.

Yesterday he took an overdose of anti psychotics washed down with a liberal helming of Cider. Police and Ambulance called, lots of 'drama' but after doing what was 'right' morally in calling the emergency services I have had to walk away - at the moment although I know he is ok I do not know if he is still in hospital or if he has (as in the past) discharged himself.

I don't have the right to judge whether this was a serious attempt or simply manipulative to return me to his desired (disordered) status quo but strongly suspect the latter.

I do know I am a 'good person' I seek to do no harm to others but with each passing day am realising the harm that has been done to me and that has to be my only focus for today.

Ortac

[Notwendy]

Ortac- I think you are showing great strength under tough circumstances. I also think 12 step programs help us with our part in this- with or without alcohol being an issue. Tendencies to enable, be co-dependent are similar.

One idea to help remember that JADE doesn't work is "victim perspective". It is my own observation that pwBPD perceive themselves as victim regardless of whether it makes sense or not. In victim mode- they see us as doing something mean/terrible/bad to them even if it has nothing to do with them. Then, they lash out to defend themselves or attack back, believing fully that this is justified after what we "did" to them.

To us, though this stuff can seem to come out of the blue. JADE ing places us in victim mode- we are justifying, defending our position - but then- if they are the victim, there can not be another victim. We remain in persecutor position- they stay victim- JADE is seen as persecution- makes it worse.

Not JADE ing is staying off the drama triangle. It doesn't mean we sit there and take it, or agree- just disengage- walk away, leave the room, turn off the phone, stop talking.

[peacemountain]

Such a helpful thread! I've been really thinking on how I JADE and WHY. I even recorded a blowup argument from the other day and went back to listen to it to see where I JADE'ed.

The conclusion I came away with is that I JADE when I'm attacked in an area of my principles or character. I'm listing these areas that are fundamental to who I am, what I hold dear, what I believe is morally right/wrong. I'm hoping that this will help me step out of JADE when these areas of my character are attacked.

1. Responsibility - I am a responsible person, in finances, self care, family, and my marriage.
2. Empathy - I care for others thoughts and feelings, I want the best for them, I want them to succeed, be healthy and happy
3. The commitment of marriage - I'm deeply committed to our marriage, and continue to want the best for our relationship. (although I do recognize it takes two people to have a relationship)
4. I am faithful - I do not look to external sources (other men) to alleviate or cope with the pain in me about my marriage and current circumstances
5. I am kind - I do not take revenge or punish others for hurting me. I set boundaries and remove myself from situations that are damaging to my emotional and physical well being.
6. I am a good friend and listener - I listen, encourage, and comfort my friends in times of trouble. My friends feel safe with me, and value my thoughts and experience.

[Grey Kitty]

I know my situation isn't that bad, relatively speaking.

  Don't do this to yourself.

There is a quote attributed to the Buddha: "In comparison lies madness", and it applies to this situation.

You can always find somebody in worse circumstances than yourself. And you can use that as an excuse to tell yourself that your suffering doesn't matter, your pain isn't important, and that there is something wrong with you for feeling the way you are really feeling.

Try to gently stop yourself from diving too far down this rabbit hole. You won't find anything good there, trust me.

A better thing to do with those feelings is to use them like a canary in a coal mine. When you are starting to feel things like this, you are probably letting yourself be subjected to more abuse than is healthy. Consider it a little reminder that you probably need to do a better job enforcing some boundaries to protect yourself.

[ortac77]

Excellent quote Grey Kitty - In comparison does lie madness.

Comparing our own problem as being somehow 'lesser' than others cannot offer any way forward, it in fact becomes a form of disordered thinking about ourselves.

Good Reminder

[Lucky Jim]

Hey DB, Agree w/Notwendy, Michel71 and ortac77: avoid JADE'ing, which usually leads to circular argument.  When one JADEs, it implies that you need to make excuses for your own views, to which you are entitled without any need to explain.  Plus, trying to convince a pwBPD that he/she is wrong is a fruitless exercise in frustration.  Instead, suggest you decline to participate in these types of conversations.

LuckyJim

[allienoah]

It has been a very difficult thing, to learn how NOT to JADE. I sometimes fall back on that as there are times I can't believe what I am being attacked from. And others who are trying to be supportive also seem to give advice that is in fact JADE-ing-"didn't you tell him this, or didn't you explain that"? There is a great deal of understanding of the BPD on our part-the people that really love them and want to improve things. I find it not necessary to inform friends and family of his condition as I know it will bring along a string of "why are you with him then?" A no-win situation. And when family members who don't like him conduct passive-aggressive maneuvers to try to "convince" me I should leave, that is an issue too. Why do I feel like I am fighting the world?

[DaddyBear77]

So for the past few days, things have continued to be very very difficult. I haven't stopped JADEing - but, instead, I've taken note of what happens every time I DO JADE.

I'm sure I don't have to say this, but everyone's observations about JADE are spot on - EVERY single time we end up in a circular argument. Furthermore, I've learned that all this time I've been convincing myself that if I just JADE enough, the argument stops. But, what REALLY happens is that my pwBPD starts to regulate her emotions, and SHE calms things down, and it's really HER that decides to end the argument. For now. Until she feels the emotional pain again, and it starts right up.

The most recent example is very telling and gave me a lot of clarity - the upshot is that I am seeing more and more clearly that this is NOT something I'm doing, and furthrmore, the argument isn't really about the thing it's supposedly about.

The backstory is this: the conception, pregnancy, and finally healthy delivery of our daughter was a very difficult and emotional process for both myself and our pwBPD. I fully understand the ups and downs (and way downs), and I would never even THINK to "blame" my pwBPD for any of the troubles we had. That's just NOT how I'm built, it's not how I think, and it's never something I would throw at my wife. Never.

My pwBPD obviously felt personally responsible for things that happened along the path. While this was going on, she acted in, regressed into a place where she caused herself a LOT of harm, and only after months of struggles and pushing and loving support from myself and her mother did she finally get the help she needed. Not for BPD, mind you, but for the specific issues of self harm. So that's the REAL story - hard, hard knocks from life and deep emotional pain, both in the moment and dredged up from long ago.

So here's where the crazy comes in: My pwBPD says that I blamed her for the issues we experienced during this time. She says that I didn't care about her enough to get her help sooner. She says that she was left without support to deal with the terrible emotional pain. And she says that I had no empathy for what she was going through. She says a lot of things, but I think I can see through this now, finally, and understand that these are her ways of expressing emotional pain.

And finally, all this works only when I engage. My ways to engage are to JADE or to Agree, Accept, and/or Submit (AAS - just made that up, maybe there's a better acronym, but it's clearly JADEs close cousin). If I were to NOT engage (which there have been times when I haven't) - the emotional pain skyrockets and she's forced to deal with it.

I think I get it now - does this all sound about right?

[Lucky Jim]

You could try Mirroring, which is a form of validation.  For example:

My pwBPD says that I blamed her for the issues we experienced during this time.

DB: "In what way did I blame you?  What makes you say that?"

She says that I didn't care about her enough to get her help sooner.

DB: "So you're saying that I didn't care enough about you to get help sooner?  Is that right?"

She says that she was left without support to deal with the terrible emotional pain.

DB:  "So you're saying that you felt unsupported?  How might I have done better at supporting you?"

And she says that I had no empathy for what she was going through.

DB:  "What makes you think that I had no empathy for what you were going through?"

When she answers, suggest you resist the urge to JADE or AAS.  Just listen and say something bland, like "That's interesting" or "OK, now I get it" or "Let me think about it."

You get the idea!

LuckyJim

[Grey Kitty]

It has been a very difficult thing, to learn how NOT to JADE.

Remember the last resort way to avoid JADEing: You are safe if you don't speak 

I'm kinda serious--if you cannot think of anything good to say, anything that is using the right tools, just don't say anything!

[AllNightLong]

Remember the last resort way to avoid JADEing: You are safe if you don't speak 

I'm kinda serious--if you cannot think of anything good to say, anything that is using the right tools, just don't say anything!

I have big problems with JADEing too, and i've tried to just be quite and my wife gets real upset and thinks i just disrespects her, she can't see that she is the one that is disrespectful being mean to me.

We are in a quite similar situation DB and i'm reacting similar to what you describe and it's soo freaking tough, for me the hardest part in this is to realize that i lost myself a long time ago and don't know how to get back to being me.

As soon as i try to focus on me she lashes out and rages about how incredible selfish i am and this brings me back to square one.

[Lucky Jim]

for me the hardest part in this is to realize that i lost myself a long time ago and don't know how to get back to being me.

As soon as i try to focus on me she lashes out and rages about how incredible selfish i am and this brings me back to square one.

ANL: I was once in your shoes.  Like you, I lost myself for a while there, which was not fun, as you can appreciate.  In Greek Myth, Theseus finds his way out of the Labyrinth, the Cave of the Minotaur, by following the "thread" that he unspooled on his way in.  In similar fashion, I would suggest that the way out of the BPD Cave is by following the "threads" of one's life.  By that, I mean getting back to your core and returning to authenticity.  Suggest you listen to your gut feelings.  Find the right path for YOU.  Isolation leads to desperation; suggest you reach out to friends and family and talk about what's really going on.

LuckyJim