Throwing away my stuff without asking and not respecting the boundaries I set

[Our abuse recovery guide]

Hello again,

I'm sorry, I haven't been here to help others. It's been a tough period for me and my family.

I thought the relationship between me and my mom was getting better, but now I'm disappointed and hurt and angry. At the time she is in the hospital, and has been for four months. She has a schizoaffective dissorder, so it's hard not to care about her and help as much as I can. On the other hand, I think she is a narcisist too. She is showing some traces of it, at least.

She was at her flat yesterday, to stay over night, for the first time since she got really sick. This is the way psychiatric ward does it, they take it little by little, giving patients more and more freedom and independence to see how it works out.
Anyway, she called me, pretty late, after 9 pm and told me quite upsetting news: she had thrown away a box with dry food that was mine (I did live at her place for a few months, because I was a studying far away, and hadn't find a place for myself yet). She said that the food was old and that she threw it away. The things that are bothering and upseting are:

1) She doesn't respect the boundary that I've put for her - not to call me after 8 pm unless it's an emergency. And this is not the first time. I'm struggling to see which symptoms come from the schizoaffective disorder, and which come from BPD. I thought she was forgetful due to the manic periods. She is in one right now, I think.
I don't like to get upset that late, and that is what usually happens when I talk to her - she knows which buttons to push. So it happened again - I needed extra time to calm down and think things through and couldn't fall asleep before 3 am, which is very late for me.

2) This is not the first time she has thrown away my stuff without talking to me first. It's like she doesn't want signs of me in the appartment. But she is also throwing away her own stuff, that are fine, that could be sold or given away. Is this a typical behavior for someone with BPD/narcissism?

I decided to move far away from her before I fell asleep. I don't see how to deal with this - she doesn't respect me and I've set the boudaries time and time again. It's not working. The only thing that works with her, because of the narcissism, is to threaten to leave her if she continues. I have done that recently for the first time in my life, because I don't like to manipulate, but it was very important to make her sign the papers so a lawyer could take over and fix her economy. When I did that, she got in a depressive state and wanted to end her life.

What am I to do? The health personnel don't see what I see. They don't know what I know. And I'm exhausted. Should I leave and cut contact? Or should I manipulate her and threaten to leave again? It's not an empty threat.
Will she get it if I tell her that when she throws away my things, without talking to me first, when she decides over my head like I'm still a child, that I want to leave, because she doesn't respect me and my boundaries?
I'm tired of coping with this behavior. My therapist wants me to stay and practice setting boundaries with her, find a middle ground, but I don't think I will ever get from her what I need for this relationship to work. Because I have tried since 2010.
She is so manipulative, that it's scary. It's like she is self-destructive and dragging me down with her.

[Towanda]

Hello again,

I'm sorry, I haven't been here to help others. It's been a tough period for me and my family.

I thought the relationship between me and my mom was getting better, but now I'm disappointed and hurt and angry. At the time she is in the hospital, and has been for four months. She has a schizoaffective dissorder, so it's hard not to care about her and help as much as I can. On the other hand, I think she is a narcisist too. She is showing some traces of it, at least.

She was at her flat yesterday, to stay over night, for the first time since she got really sick. This is the way psychiatric ward does it, they take it little by little, giving patients more and more freedom and independence to see how it works out.
Anyway, she called me, pretty late, after 9 pm and told me quite upsetting news: she had thrown away a box with dry food that was mine (I did live at her place for a few months, because I was a studying far away, and hadn't find a place for myself yet). She said that the food was old and that she threw it away. The things that are bothering and upseting are:

1) She doesn't respect the boundary that I've put for her - not to call me after 8 pm unless it's an emergency. And this is not the first time. I'm struggling to see which symptoms come from the schizoaffective disorder, and which come from BPD. I thought she was forgetful due to the manic periods. She is in one right now, I think.
I don't like to get upset that late, and that is what usually happens when I talk to her - she knows which buttons to push. So it happened again - I needed extra time to calm down and think things through and couldn't fall asleep before 3 am, which is very late for me.

2) This is not the first time she has thrown away my stuff without talking to me first. It's like she doesn't want signs of me in the appartment. But she is also throwing away her own stuff, that are fine, that could be sold or given away. Is this a typical behavior for someone with BPD/narcissism?

I decided to move far away from her before I fell asleep. I don't see how to deal with this - she doesn't respect me and I've set the boudaries time and time again. It's not working. The only thing that works with her, because of the narcissism, is to threaten to leave her if she continues. I have done that recently for the first time in my life, because I don't like to manipulate, but it was very important to make her sign the papers so a lawyer could take over and fix her economy. When I did that, she got in a depressive state and wanted to end her life.

What am I to do? The health personnel don't see what I see. They don't know what I know. And I'm exhausted. Should I leave and cut contact? Or should I manipulate her and threaten to leave again? It's not an empty threat.
Will she get it if I tell her that when she throws away my things, without talking to me first, when she decides over my head like I'm still a child, that I want to leave, because she doesn't respect me and my boundaries?
I'm tired of coping with this behavior. My therapist wants me to stay and practice setting boundaries with her, find a middle ground, but I don't think I will ever get from her what I need for this relationship to work. Because I have tried since 2010.
She is so manipulative, that it's scary. It's like she is self-destructive and dragging me down with her.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Towanda:      

I'm sorry you and your family have had a tough time.  

She doesn't respect the boundary that I've put for her - not to call me after 8 pm unless it's an emergency.  

Unfortunately, most people won't respect boundaries.  They are up to us to enforce consistently.  One thing to do is to let the call go to voicemail.  You can listen to it.  Once you determine there isn't an emergency, just wait until the next day to call her back.  An alternative would be to answer the phone.  As soon as it is determined that it isn't an emergency, tell her you have to let her go and that you will call her back tomorrow, then hang up (don't stay on the line to here her argue or defend, just hang up after your statement.)

This is not the first time she has thrown away my stuff without talking to me first. It's like she doesn't want signs of me in the appartment. But she is also throwing away her own stuff, that are fine, that could be sold or given away. Is this a typical behavior for someone with BPD/narcissism?

I don't know about her behavior.  Some might prefer it to hording.  Perhaps it an OCD thing or paranoia and that she might think some things are contaminated.

You can't change her.  The only thing you can do is enforce your boundaries the best you can and manage the way you interact with her and react to her.  To preserve  your own sanity, you might need to choose your battles.  Unless your dry goods were worth a considerable amount of money, you might just want to forget about it.  If you stay with her, you might need to take steps to minimize what you have available for her to access.  Some of your things might need to be locked up somewhere.  

The harsh reality is that your mom will likely always have problems.  You may have some good periods, but it's likely that she will periodically resort to prior behaviors.

[Towanda]

Thanks for your answer Naughty Nibbler.

It's a good advice to let it go to the voice mail. I will consider it.
Since she has a tendency to call just to tell me things that are upseting to me (like lying to her doctor about the reason why I didn't come to the meeting, and lying to me about that too, because I've talked to the doctor and mom said something completely different to her), never to ask how I am or what's going on in my life, (of course I have responsibility for my feelings, it's just that she knows me and knows what makes me tick) I can't listen to the voicemail in the evening. And not listening to it, will also keep me awake. We're talking about a woman that when I say "No, I can't help you right now, I have to take my medicines first and eat", she calls a friend, gossips about me and complains so that I can hear. I go nuts of course, because I'm accused of being jealous by her friend who doesn't know my side of the story, and I seem like a nut person that is yelling and is angry at her old mother. What happens next is, I get bad conscience and help my mother with what she wanted in the first place, thinking that it was actually my decision, what I wanted to do. In stead, I should have just walked away - because gossiping about me, so that I can hear, is a manipulation technique. She is constantly doing it to get her way. I just have to understand what it is she wants and deny her that when she is using manipulation to get it, when she wants it.

I have warned her that I will block her from being able to call me ever again, if this happens again, because I am there right now. I'm emotionally ready to get away from her and not be a caretaker, nor having any contact with her.

It's not about the dry food, it never was. It's about not respecting me, as a grown up person that I am, not caring about my feelings at all. Her need to control and decide over me is big, and she doesn't care how it makes me feel. She seems to have a handicap right there - not understanding or not caring about other people's feelings. A few years after I moved away to study, she got rid of all my things in my room, and moved in to it - with a new bed and everything. After dad got sick, she got rid of almost all of the books in the house, two of them borrowed by me from a physics teacher who wanted them back. She did not give them to the library or Salvation Army - she threw them in the garbage container. It might be OCD, because she has that, it just manifests in other ways.

I want to move the little rest of the things that are still at her place, but she has unpacked them without talking to me, and spread them around in the flat and in the basement, so I have to go through all of her things to get my stuff. I'm pretty poor, because I have 5 chronic illnesses and have only worked and earned good money 2011-2014 in my whole life. That's 2 years and 3 months where I could save something to have a safe economy.  I can barely manage now, so I can't afford that she throws away anything. But as I said, the problem is her not respecting me, my feelings and my boundaries. She treats me like I'm her property, not an independent person, and she makes decisions on my behalf. That is quite disturbing. Now, I don't have the capacity to go through all of her stuff, because she's been manic for a few years and the flat is all full of boxes, there are bugs, possibly bed bugs - it's all a mess. Perhaps I just have to give up getting my things back, among others letters from my dead grandmother, father and friends. Since we are Bosnian refugees, some of the things are from Bosnia and it's hard to give them up. 

I'll think this through, write everything down and talk to my therapist about it. Thank you so much for your calm tone and a different view on the situation. It did help.
There should be a course for people to learn how to handle pwBPD. But I'm in Europe and the only thing I get is - you have to try and fail because people respond differently to setting boundaries, to validating their emotions, and so on.

I can't be her mother, her psychologist nor her caretaker. And I won't. My life is tough enough even without her and my U BPD B.

[Ziggiddy]

Hi Towanda
It's very painful to have your boundaries invaded and to have your stuff thrown away. It shows a lack of respect which is very hurtful.
I have to agree with Naughty Nibbler that boundaries are usually ignored, especially at the beginning of us putting them into place.
The point of boundaries is to define which behaviours you will accept and which you will not.
Once they have been clearly stated we then need to enforce the consequence of having them breached. Did you choose a consequence and then tell your mother what that consequence would be? I'm not sure if I missed that in your post.
It's also necessary to work a contingency plan for when the boundary is ignored - eg how to manage the call when (not if!) it comes! I liked NN's suggestion to let it go to voicemail. Then if possible just try and tolerate the anger that comes from having your boundary breached.

As far as throwing out your things. Hoo boy. My BPD mother has an extreme cluttering/hoarding problem which I was terrified of inheriting so when my PA husband started throwing my things away early in our r'ship I thought he had every right, even though it hurt me.
Now I see the hoarding and the throwing away as abusive/manipulative/controlling behaviours.
The hard part for you would be accepting that your mother does indeed have the right to choose to throw away her things, even your father's things but not yours.
Again, it is worth putting the boundary in place as far as your things go, but it's not appropriate for you to make value judgments on the things she throws away of her own. They are her responsibility and it is her choice.

I dealt with my DH's throwing away behaviour with letting him know that if he threw any more of my things, I would throw away something of his which had corresponding value. Ethical? I'm not sure. It certainly wasn't ethical of him to be destroying or disposing of my things.
The behaviour happened again.
 I enforced the consequence and it hasn't happened since. He still wrecks some of my stuff but he doesn't throw it away anymore.
Boundaries have to be upheld again and again before they are observed, if they ever are. You may have to be realistic in what to expect and plan accordingly.

Be creative.
You will release all that anger energy into creatively dealing with the problem! I think the trick is to keep it simple and focus on what you want from YOU rather than from HER if you see what I mean 
Good luck and please do post your plans and their results.
Ziggiddy

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hi Towanda:   
I'm sorry you are dealing with some physical ailments.  Do you hope to be able to manage them to the extent that you can go back to work in the future?

It's about not respecting me, as a grown up person that I am, not caring about my feelings at all. Her need to control and decide over me is big, and she doesn't care how it makes me feel.   

You can't change her.  RADICAL ACCEPTANCE  may be your best strategy.

One option when you lack validation from others, is to learn to validate yourself.  The exercises at the link below can be helpful.    SELF-VALIDATION

I should have just walked away - because gossiping about me, so that I can hear, is a manipulation technique. She is constantly doing it to get her way. I just have to understand what it is she wants and deny her that when she is using manipulation to get it, when she wants it.   

When she does this in front of you, she wants to see a reaction from you.  The best thing you can do is to quit reacting.  Don't give her power.  It has to be hard for you, but walk away when you hear her talking about you.  Do something to take your mind off of it (put on headphones and listen to music, take a walk, etc.) Just accept that she will gossip about you and bad mouth you to others.  It's common.  Many here are dealing with similar circumstances.

I want to move the little rest of the things that are still at her place, but she has unpacked them without talking to me, and spread them around in the flat and in the basement, so I have to go through all of her things to get my stuff. 

What can seem overwhelming in it's entirety, can be tackled a step at a time.  If certain personal possessions are important to you, then decide on a plan to work through the mess.  Don't announce it, don't argue about it - just do it in a calm manner. 

Take a small section at a time, and look through it and grab the items that belong to you. Pick a time of day when you are better apt to handle it.  Might want to decide on some strategy to keep the items away from your mom.  Get something you can lock things up in, or take some measure to keep the items away from your mom.

If you have letters that you want to keep, you might want to scan what's possible to scan and keep an electronic file.  The originals can have special meaning, to hold the original document, but they can deteriorate over time. 

Check out the links and give some of the suggestions a try.  Let us know how it goes.