Rock, Paper, Scissors

[Lucky Jim]

Friends, Towards the end of our marriage, my BPDxW and I went to a few sessions of marital counseling together, before my Ex dropped out.  At one of the sessions, I tried to explain the dynamic of our relationship by likening it to a game of rock, paper, scissors.

What I said was that I no longer "shot" paper (covering, nurturing, supportive) because my Ex always shot scissors (cutting, sharp, abrasive).  My only choices, I explained, were to shoot scissors and fight fire with fire, or to shoot rock (unmoving, detached, disengaged) in order to be unharmed by scissors.

My BPDxW told me later that she thought this discussion was an idiotic analogy to a childhood game.  I thought it was a window on the BPD dynamic.

What do you think?  (There's no right or wrong answer here).

LuckyJim

[AustenJ]

Mine had the emotions, and sometimes, the understanding, of a 4yr old. Most abstract ideas like analogies and extended metaphors were lost on her. This isn't to say she wasn't bright, but her black and white thinking did not permit her to see the shades of gray that I saw in our relationship. For example, in my mind, the concept of friendship seems pretty simple. But after she discarded and replaced me she still wanted us to be work friends (we work together). I asked her why it was important for her to keep me as a friend (myself thinking of a million reasons why)... .but after a long pause, she replied, "I don't know."

Their brains have ping pong balls bouncing around 24/7, and they have very little desire or energy in trying to decipher abstract ideas that make perfect sense to us, especially after they have already decided to replace us. The effort it takes for them to understand our feelings is just too much for them; hence, the lack of empathy.

I'm an English major, and I often waxed poetic, which now I'm sure was wasted on her.

[Lucky Jim]

AustenJ: Right, I used an analogy because it was too risky to raise the issue directly in a therapy session due to my Ex's volatility.  Interesting thing is that the T got my point and understood completely, whereas it went right over my BPDxW's head, for the reasons you note.  I was trying to express, obliquely, my frustration at my Ex's belligerent attitude (scissors) that was causing me to disengage (rock) after I had already refused to be a doormat (paper).  It made sense to me at the time!  LJ

[AustenJ]

LJ-

It's a great analogy! It's easily understood... .by we nons. But as we have dealt with our nonsensical x's, they think we are speaking Greek. And if we are not fawning over them, we are speaking a different language altogether, easily tuned out by their disordered brains... .for the longest time we think they understand us because they nod and smile, but they are just mirroring us.

[FSTL]

But after she discarded and replaced me she still wanted us to be work friends (we work together). I asked her why it was important for her to keep me as a friend (myself thinking of a million reasons why)... .but after a long pause, she replied, "I don't know."

How many times have I heard "I don't know" when asking them about their feelings?

And I believe her - she really doesn't know. It just happened to be how she was feeling in the moment. Which is just a really good reason to stay clear of their toxic mess, because she can't control her feelings and it's a guarantee that sooner or later they will cover you in their toxic slime from an emotional outburst.

[roberto516]

How many times have I heard "I don't know" when asking them about their feelings?

My god. The most frustrating response she would always give. The recent recycle she said "I think we want different things and I don't want to be in a relationship." I replied with "What do you want?" The answer "I don't know".

Communication with them is impossible. And it's sad. Really sad. The only emotion my ex knew how to express was anger. No other emotion she could talk about. She'd show it behaviorally. But not be able to express it.

[JaxWest]

Whenever I tried to talk, she kept telling me there was nothing to talk about. She made it sound like her actions made sense, but they were weird and were just really off. I would bring it up, then she would make me sound like I was the one that was nuts.

I compared mine to Charlie Brown kicking the football. She would give me the signs, so I would start to act on those signs and then she would pull away at the last minute... .Each time, I thought things are normal again.

[FSTL]

Whenever I tried to talk, she kept telling me there was nothing to talk about. She made it sound like her actions made sense, but they were weird and were just really off. I would bring it up, then she would make me sound like I was the one that was nuts.

She would give me the signs, so I would start to act on those signs and then she would pull away at the last minute... .Each time, I thought things are normal again.

Got all that as well except mine would tell me off for thinking "logically" and her feelings were what mattered.

More recently she has done the pull in, then push away, with shorter times before the push on every occassion. She even admitted she felt bad for "leading me on". That was enough for me to decide that I had to go super LC as she clearly didn't care a jot for my feelings (she is not capable of doing it) and distance and indifference were the best defence.

[FSTL]

The recent recycle she said "I think we want different things and I don't want to be in a relationship." I replied with "What do you want?" The answer "I don't know".

Communication with them is impossible.

Got that too!

I got a lot of "I am confused" as well. Last major recycle attempt she said "it feels like we're getting back together and I don't want a relationship". Funny thing was, it was the one occassion where I knew I wasn't getting back with her - she just felt she was... .therefore it must have been true.

[roberto516]

Got all that as well except mine would tell me off for thinking "logically" and her feelings were what mattered.

More recently she has done the pull in, then push away, with shorter times before the push on every occassion. She even admitted she felt bad for "leading me on". That was enough for me to decide that I had to go super LC as she clearly didn't care a jot for my feelings (she is not capable of doing it) and distance and indifference were the best defence.

When she recycled me back she even had the clear insight to even tell me "I think I'm doing a borderline push-pull with you." That's when I should have got out and never looked back.

[Skip]

My only choices, I explained, were to shoot scissors and fight fire with fire, or to shoot rock (unmoving, detached, disengaged) in order to be unharmed by scissors.

Jim,

This says more to me about how closed down you two were to each other. The important point is that you two gave up on communicating with each other. This happens in most failed marriages (of all types) as the final stage.

You both were through listening.

Here is Stage Four of Gottman's theory:

Stage Four Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners who have reached this third 'defensive' stage, may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, "Stonewalling", perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her.
https://bpdfamily.com/content/your-relationship-breaking-down

I don't think it is a helpful analogy - it is just blaming the other partner when we shut down.  In reality, the reason we shut down was a long series of increasingly degrading communications that made each partner less appealing and lovable the other.

Believing rock or scissors only is the way to go was you saying you had given up on communicating with her. Likely she had given up on you, too, as her response suggested.

Both comments (outlooks) were terminal.

Skip

[JaxWest]

Got all that as well except mine would tell me off for thinking "logically" and her feelings were what mattered.

More recently she has done the pull in, then push away, with shorter times before the push on every occassion. She even admitted she felt bad for "leading me on". That was enough for me to decide that I had to go super LC as she clearly didn't care a jot for my feelings (she is not capable of doing it) and distance and indifference were the best defence.

Mine had the distance and indifference thing down too. Pull me close, but then push me away. I would try to get close, so she distanced herself, acted like she was indifferent to me. I give her space, she sought me out. Sought out my friends. Sought out to see what I was doing.

[roberto516]

Mine had the distance and indifference thing down too. Pull me close, but then push me away. I would try to get close, so she distanced herself, acted like she was indifferent to me. I give her space, she sought me out. Sought out my friends. Sought out to see what I was doing.

Goodness we are all so similar. She detached for 2 and a half months but every other weekend she'd text me on a weekend night asking "What are you doing?" Just to make sure I wasn't with a girl or our partying for the eventual recycle. Such a push-pull. And the sad part is we were both aware she was doing that but I didn't set boundaries and allowed the recycle.

[JaxWest]

Goodness we are all so similar. She detached for 2 and a half months but every other weekend she'd text me on a weekend night asking "What are you doing?" Just to make sure I wasn't with a girl or our partying for the eventual recycle. Such a push-pull. And the sad part is we were both aware she was doing that but I didn't set boundaries and allowed the recycle.

It sure sounds like we are all alike! After a few weeks of not hanging out with her, mine invited herself to my birthday dinner with colleagues just to check up or something. She didn't know these people and these people did not like her, but she still decided to go. A week after I thought things ended, she texted my coworker, who I watch games with, so she was trying to invite herself then. Then, after the final argument, I went no contact for a few weeks, then she contacted me about "work". She looked up information about me on facebook and knew a creepy amount of stuff about me and my plans.

[Roselee]

My only choices, I explained, were to shoot scissors and fight fire with fire, or to shoot rock (unmoving, detached, disengaged) in order to be unharmed by scissors.

Stage Four Rather than face the pain and overwhelm they expect to experience, partners who have reached this third 'defensive' stage, may progress to the forth and final stage of breakdown, characterized by a breakdown of basic trust between the partners, and increasing disengagement in the name of self-protection. Like a steam-valve in a pressure cooker, the partners start avoiding one another so as to minimize their conflicts. Gottman calls this final stage, "Stonewalling", perhaps after the image of a partner hiding behind a stone wall designed to protect him or her from further assault. Unfortunately, there is no way to love your partner when you are hiding behind a wall to protect yourself from him or her.

I can relate to both of these!  I like that analogy of rock, paper scissors!  Also, I love how Skip breaks it down, by saying it basically went into this Stage Four.  I remember vividly being in this stage.  Not wanting to leave work, because then I had no excuse for not being about to "talk".  Which it never was a "talk", just an on going blasting of blame towards me, and how I was the cause of him thinking the way he did. In his mind, I made him that way.

"Stonewalling" definitely became a safe place for me... .even with knowing it would be very temporary.  But if only to get my breath again, and maybe try to unravel my brain for a bit... .I searched for it. 

And again, I remember feeling bad about doing so... .but it was the only way I could manage his cycles.

Great insight!

RL

[Lucky Jim]

Skip: Right, I was in Stage Four, though I would describe my rock, paper, scissors analogy more as an attempt to express symbolically my need to protect myself from abuse rather than an effort to blame "the other partner."  LJ

[FSTL]

Goodness we are all so similar. She detached for 2 and a half months but every other weekend she'd text me on a weekend night asking "What are you doing?" Just to make sure I wasn't with a girl or our partying for the eventual recycle. Such a push-pull. And the sad part is we were both aware she was doing that but I didn't set boundaries and allowed the recycle.

Oh, God... .we're all dating the same girl-   - Except with me, she texted me on a Monday or Tuesday or at worst, a week since the last contact. I once saw her messages and saw she did it with all her other exes who she was still in contact with, and immediately learnt the messages had zero significance, other than her keeping her options open.

She still messages me, but I have set boundaries. I don't engage with her (I am hoping to bore her to death) and I definately wouldn't see her if she asked eg for a drink/meeting, whatever.

[HopefulDad]

I get your analogy, but the game itself has a winner and loser, plus "rock smashes scissors".  If your ex thought your analogy was dumb, I suspect she was focusing on how your rock smashes her scissors, thus making you the winner.  She probably couldn't stretch the analogy the way you did.

[Lucky Jim]

Good points, HopefulDad.  Sure, it's possible that she was focusing on the win/lose aspect, though my recollection is that she disregarded the analogy from the outset as a waste of time!  LJ

[Mutt]

Hi LuckyJim,

I like your analogy, she pushed you away when you were close to her, in turn you retreated or at least that's how I interpret it. I'm going to take a guess that she projected this on you?

My ex complained that I wasn't intimate with her when in fact she didn't want to have sex for two years and I wasn't attracted to her etc. I became more closed off, she just didn't seem interested in me as equals, it was like a snowball effect.

I didn't put it together back then, there was sexual abuse in her past, regardless it must of have been something that she felt bad about to project it.

[Lucky Jim]

Thanks, Mutt.  Due to my Ex's volatile temperament, I had to express myself somewhat cryptically with our T, in order to avoid having her storm out of the session.  I doubt she had any idea what I was trying to say.  Yes to getting pushed away and practicing detachment in the latter years of our marriage.

I'm sorry to hear about your experience.  Interesting to note that my Ex was also a victim of prior sexual assault, which at times she projected onto me.  My Ex may have suffered from PTSD as well as BPD, which could have contributed to her enormous anger and episodes of rage.

LJ