Experiences with mediation

[SettingBorders]

Those of you who have gone through this process: Do you see any possibility of convincing a BPD of less parenting time than he currently wants? (I want to get 70:30 or 80:20, he wants 50:50.)

I see many of you going to court, but is this inevitable? What did mediation bring for you?
Are there some who just gave in to what your BPDx wanted? How did that turn out? Is there space for altering the parenting agreement step by step to what you want? Like introducing exceptions here and there?

Were there some points you made that made your BPDx change their mind? Like renouncing maintenance, corporating in whatever
they need for comfort (i. e. always bringing the child/children)?

Did you use manipulative tactics such as pushing that the other parent really really takes the responsability in order to activate their defense mechanism? (I am evel and I know it. )

I would love to discuss your experiences.

[SettingBorders]

I was looking through some older topics on mediation and fond some helpful strategies posted by ForeverDad. I want to share some quotes with you:

Understand that mediation seldom works early in a divorce or custody case, the stbEx is just too Entitled or feeling too much In Control.  So if it fails, don't be surprised.  You don't have to sacrifice yourself or the children to get a bad settlement.  :)etermine as much as possible what your 'boundaries' are for what you'll accept or gift away.  The closer you get to a major event such as a court hearing or trial, the likelier you are to get 'less unfair' terms offered.  Think twice before you decide to act under pressure to accept a lousy offer.

Is there anything he really wants?  You may try asking for it in the negotiations, pick things that he could believe you might want.  It may be that his need to win may make him dig in for them.  Then when you finally let him get them, he could feel he 'won' something and then you walk out with some of the things you really wanted and he's none the wiser. It might work or it might not, but no harm in trying.  You see, in his black or white world of extremes he can't see the gray aspects of negotiation.  For him it's Win or Lose.  In his mind he wins and you lose.  You might be able to use that all or nothing world view to your advantage.

[flourdust]

Like any other conversation with a pwBPD, mediation can go off on strange tangents very quickly. My suggestions are to help keep you focused on why you're there.

1. Have your position and what you want to to achieve in writing (e.g., "agree on parenting time," "agree on weekly schedule and holiday schedule).

2. Have another piece of paper that lists the things you've decided (ahead of time) you are willing to negotiate (e.g., "I'm willing to go down to 60/40 time," "I'm willing to give up $200 in child support if he gives me title to the car".

3. Ask to have your mediation in separate rooms. This can lower the emotional temperature and reactivity, possibly for both of you.

The pieces of paper will remind you what you came to negotiate and what you are willing to give up. It's easy to get thrown by unexpected demands or sudden topic changes -- use the papers to keep you grounded so that you don't suddenly find yourself negotiating who's walking your kid down the aisle at the wedding instead of child support!

The separate rooms thing is optional, but it's often helpful in these negotiations. I know you mentioned trying to push his buttons, but this sort of thing rarely pays off with sudden acquiescence to your terms. You're more likely to end up acting out some of your relationship drama for the mediator -- while paying for the privilege!

[Panda39]

I wanted to share Flourdust's current thread with you there is a great section in there by livednlearned that you should check out.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=308606.0

Panda39

[SettingBorders]

Thanks the two of you for your answers.

It is good to remind oneself that it's a negotiation and not (what BPDs make it appear) a meeting to soothen them and trying to give them what they need to feel save again as a compensation for having left them. I totally sucked during our first mediation. He was talking 1,5 h about what he wanted and how unfair if was that I was unwilling to accept overnights yet (or daugther was 5 months then). He was so angry with me and the mediator (who tried to make him understand my point of view) that I gave him everything else he wanted and offered even more ... .just to make his anger go away. I am such an amateur! Now this is hard to take back. We're practicing 70/30 on daytime right now, and the nights 100/0.

1. Have your position and what you want to to achieve in writing (e.g., "agree on parenting time," "agree on weekly schedule and holiday schedule).

2. Have another piece of paper that lists the things you've decided (ahead of time) you are willing to negotiate (e.g., "I'm willing to go down to 60/40 time," "I'm willing to give up $200 in child support if he gives me title to the car".

Yea, I am working both of this out right now. Basically I want to get back to 75/25 in smaller sessions during daytime and 100/0 for the nights while she is younger than one year old. After her first birthday she can graduatlely start to spend some nights at his'. The mediator won't be pleased either, because she is a fan of 50/50 agreements even when the child is still very young.

I know you mentioned trying to push his buttons, but this sort of thing rarely pays off with sudden acquiescence to your terms. You're more likely to end up acting out some of your relationship drama for the mediator -- while paying for the privilege!

You might be right. Thanks for that advice.

On the other topic, livednlearned gave some very helpful tips, I want to quote some of these:

[Y]ou can also agree to mediation, then when you come in and begin to negotiate, express some of the bottom line items and see what comes back. You may be able to tell within 30 minutes that there is no possibility of settling and choose to end mediation. 

Its always important to have a clean record.

If you do go to mediation, make sure you include consequences and contingencies for non-compliance. That way, you don't give the judge a wide open menu of options (including giving her another bite of the apple). You give the judge the exact consequence you want, so your trip to court is more likely to produce the results you want.

That's awesome!

In other words, let her prove, in the safest way possible, to be the parent she needs to be.
To use the analogy above, she will be demonstrating that she can do B to avoid C, hoping for A.
Whereas you are asking to get C while she demonstrates that she can do B.
A is, from a negotiation standpoint, not in play.

I am not sure if this is applicable for my situation, because he appears a perfect daddy, but it's a smart idea and I will think about it.

[livednlearned]

Do you see any possibility of convincing a BPD of less parenting time than he currently wants?

It's better to be certain of what you think is best, and be aware that there are negotiation tactics that will be used to bring you closer to compromise.

Very few of us, at least fresh out of our BPD marriages, were psychologically in a position to convince a BPD person of anything, if that were even possible.

I see many of you going to court, but is this inevitable? What did mediation bring for you?

It might be possible that there are skilled mediators out there, like Bill Eddy, who can bring a BPD person to agreement and avoid court. In my experience, it helped to see court as an ally. The hard part was figuring out how it worked (the unwritten stuff) and to figure out how to get a handle on my nerves and anxiety. 

Are there some who just gave in to what your BPDx wanted? How did that turn out?

I went along with what my L recommended, and ended up with 60/40 -- my ex agreed to that. Where I goofed up is giving my ex the house, thinking that would appease him. Instead, it took me four court hearings to get him to comply with the order and refi the house. It ended up costing me money to give him the house and an excuse for him to stay engaged with me. I didn't understand how to use leverage back then.

One thing I did learn is that you can agree to some things and set aside those things you think need to get worked out in court. For example, we were able to agree on 95 percent of our stuff, except for joint legal, which I knew was never going to work. It's a good idea to ask your mediator how things work where you live, to see if this is a viable option. The benefit of working things out in mediation is that it tells the judge both parties should never end up in court of those items -- you both agreed. So, if your ex can't comply with his own order, that's a potential red flag.

Is there space for altering the parenting agreement step by step to what you want? Like introducing exceptions here and there?

I didn't have a parenting agreement in mine. However, our temporary order was created by us for us. If you can, have your L write it up -- there is a lot of power in how it gets phrased. Usually, an order is written up (as a courtesy) by one lawyer or the other. You will have to pay for this, but it also gives you a chance to tweak it. Then, there is likely a hearing in which the judge hears it and says ok, this is for real now. It's usually a formality at that point, altho sometimes the opposing counsel will say nah, we decide we don't like that.

Were there some points you made that made your BPDx change their mind? Like renouncing maintenance, corporating in whatever
they need for comfort (i. e. always bringing the child/children)?

A better negotiating strategy is to ask for more than what you want, and then dial back a bit so you end up somewhere in the middle. Especially if your ex has strong narc traits.

Did you use manipulative tactics such as pushing that the other parent really really takes the responsability in order to activate their defense mechanism? (I am evel and I know it. )

If you set a boundary and assert yourself, that alone is likely to dysregulate them. Ignore their reaction as much as possible and focus on what you think is best for the child.

Use that extra energy to develop a problem-solving mindset. If you do end up court, know that judges see bickering spouses day in, day out. I have a friend who is a magistrate and she says it's like breaking up fights on the playground. I think judges look down on us in family law court because they think we are a bunch of losers who for the life of us can't put our kids' needs first. Try to not get sucked into whatever small bomb your ex is trying to set off, and come up with reasonable solutions that get you close to what you think is best.

Is there a temp order in which you ceded overnights to your ex? What concerns do you have about those overnights, and are any of them documented?

[ForeverDad]

Firm boundaries are crucial.  Yes, you can start with limited ones, too much too soon can trigger overreactions.  However, the general truism is that appeasement does not work well and only for the short term, before long you'll be facing yet another demand for appeasement.  So best to set your firm boundaries and batten down the hatches, so to speak.  There may be some blowback but over time the other may begin to accept that you are sticking to your boundaries and Let Go on the demands somewhat.

Of course there may be times that exceptions may be appropriate — there will be times both of you want to switch weekends or other such things — but be alert to any signs of a return to demands and ultimatums.  Sticking to the order and returning immediately to your boundaries is best.

As for you holding to the current schedule, you know best your situation and your children's needs.  As long as you're not seen as 'blocking' his parenting then the court should be okay with your judgment.  Also, courts generally don't like to make big changes to an order that appears to be working.  Odds are that if the court decides to make changes then it will do so with the least changes needed in mind.

[SettingBorders]

Thank you! You helped me a lot to select my strategy and stick to it. Our mediation was on Wednesday and I did a little better than last time. I did't accept anything he wanted. I was willing to give him 6 hours with our daugther (6 months) three times a week.

The outcome: My ex cares for our daugther 5,5h every Wednesday, 9 h every Friday and another 7 hours every Sunday. Except for the Friday I am okay with it.

But it was soo terrible! The mediator took sides with him! "Why don't you want to give to the father more time with his child?" "A child needs both parents." "How would you feel if he would propose to you what you proposed to him?" "In summer when he is at home it will be vice versa, do you want to see you child only 6 hours three times a week?" Blablabla. I kept saying that it's not about how we parents feel, but about the childs wellbeeing and that she's far to young for 50/50 shared parenting. She made me feel like I was the agressive one and I got a little to defensive and made some mistakes.

Furthermore she made me agree that I will close the living room door, when my ex puts our daugther to bed in my bedroom, because he angrily communicated to her that I made too much noise. Honestly, I am very upset about that.

Now, he doesn't want to sign the agreement, because of the sencence, that she lives mainly in my household. He wants to leave that sentence out, I do persist on that sentence. In a month we meet again to talk about the summer months (when he is at home).

I am not sure ... .is it time to contact an attourney?
I fear the escalation so much!

[livednlearned]

She made me feel like I was the agressive one and I got a little to defensive and made some mistakes.

If it makes you feel any better, I told my mediator she should go see a therapist  

She told me she wasn't my mommy and I wasn't a bad little girl   I figured that had to be about her stuff not mine because my issues are with my dad not mom  

Don't forget that mediators have their own baggage  

Maybe your mediator was raised by her alcoholic mom and forever wishes her dad was around more.

Also, mediators pride themselves on reaching a compromise. That's their goal. They want to be able to say to the next client, "I am known for reaching agreement in 85 percent of my cases."

Furthermore she made me agree that I will close the living room door, when my ex puts our daugther to bed in my bedroom, because he angrily communicated to her that I made too much noise. Honestly, I am very upset about that.

Now, he doesn't want to sign the agreement, because of the sencence, that she lives mainly in my household. He wants to leave that sentence out, I do persist on that sentence. In a month we meet again to talk about the summer months (when he is at home).

Honestly, what are the chances he would sign this, even if it were perfect? You could say he had to do 100 percent of the child care while you took long baths, and he wouldn't sign it.

You are his intimacy trigger. He is reacting to this intimacy (and the loss of it), getting dysregulated by it, reliving all the feelings he associates with intense interpersonal stress.  

It really isn't about the baby or how much time or whether the door is closed or not.

It's about trying to get himself under control, but he does it in a BPD way -- in his mind, you are an extension of himself. He is trying to get all the parts to line up with how he feels, and your part is acting wayward. It needs to be punished.

He can probably pull himself together in short bursts but the underlying flood of emotions and cognitive distortions are not conducive to mediation. He is given too many opportunities to make rational decisions when he is in no state to be thinking what is best for himself, much less the baby.

I am not sure ... .is it time to contact an attourney?
I fear the escalation so much!

It is probably a good idea to contact a few attorneys and ask them all the same question. Tell them what your custody goals are, and ask them to describe the strategy and tactics they recommend. Ask them how long you can expect before they will return your calls, and how much experience they have litigating. Have they had many high-conflict divorces and if so, how did they do? Go with a friend and have that person write things down -- words that aren't familiar, etc. so you can review what you heard.

It doesn't mean you have to retain an attorney, just ask some questions and find someone you can work with if things come to that.

What are your specific fears about escalation? How do you think your ex will respond?

When he comes home this summer, where will he be living?

[SettingBorders]

If it makes you feel any better, I told my mediator she should go see a therapist  

She told me she wasn't my mommy and I wasn't a bad little girl   I figured that had to be about her stuff not mine because my issues are with my dad not mom  

 That's strong stuff! I hope now as time has passed you can laugh about that. Pah! Such an ignorance! But if you behaved like a brat in her eyes, you seem to have done something right.
But honestly: Shouldn't a mediator act like a referee rather than a judge? Or a self-proclaimed mother?

Honestly, what are the chances he would sign this, even if it were perfect? You could say he had to do 100 percent of the child care while you took long baths, and he wouldn't sign it.

   So true! But supposed I'd make that proposal ... .wouldn't it reverse the dynamic and I'd get what I wanted? That's a genuine question... .

It is probably a good idea to contact a few attorneys and ask them all the same question. Tell them what your custody goals are, and ask them to describe the strategy and tactics they recommend. Ask them how long you can expect before they will return your calls, and how much experience they have litigating. Have they had many high-conflict divorces and if so, how did they do? Go with a friend and have that person write things down -- words that aren't familiar, etc. so you can review what you heard.

It doesn't mean you have to retain an attorney, just ask some questions and find someone you can work with if things come to that.

I talked to an attourney two months ago. She seemed engaged and interested and gave me the advice to move away while I am still breastfeeding. Otherwise the courts would probably assign shared parenting quite soon, maybe from our daughter's first birthday on, one or two years later if I was lucky. I don't think others could give me some other advice before I bring myself to a decision weather to stay or to move away. I see why a good attourney is so important, but it's so expensive ... .

What are your specific fears about escalation? How do you think your ex will respond?

He will be very huffy, but I cannot estimate at all how he will act. There will be some acts of narcissistic rage for sure.
- My biggest fear is that he might commit murder suicide, but that is most likely totally irrational.
- He might tell lies in court that make me seem a bad mother or lies that I want to foil the contact between him and our daugther. I fear I could loose custody because of that.
- I also fear that he will take vengeance when he cares for our daugther, treating her either bad or trying to alienate her when she gets older.
- I fear that he talks bad about me behind my back, but he is probably already doing this.

I could deal with all of these fears, but the last one is special:
- I fear to miss the chance to settle it in a peacefull way. He COULD actually come to the conclusion that 30/70 is just what he wants. That would be a more or less stable solution compared to a court solution.

When he comes home this summer, where will he be living?

I moved in next door, so he's my neighbour. He won't work for five months in summer and wants to have his daughter around him most of the time then.

[ForeverDad]

Should you ask for a different mediator?  While that might be a lawyer question, perhaps ask the court clerk whether there's a list of mediators.  The court staff can't give legal advice but sometimes you'll get some subtle indication from them of which ones might be better than others.  Sort of, "This one and that one are used a lot."

Was the mediator aware of your parenting concerns?  Did stbEx act out in ways the mediator should have picked up on?  I recall my mediation session, it failed when we got stuck on the custody and parenting schedule.  Ex insisted she leave first to the dark parking lot and that I stay inside until she was gone, as though she was more fearful of me after 15 years of marriage than possible strangers outside.  While we waited inside the mediator commented as though to himself but clearly in my hearing, 'That woman has problems.'

It is okay if mediation fails.  Yes, it's okay if mediation attempts fail.  You don't have to sacrifice yourself or your boundaries just to make it succeed.  If it fails then you just head to court for the court to decide.  It takes longer but often the court is "less unfair" than a pressured mediation or entitled spouse.  No guarantees of course.  Too many newbies here think we have to make mediation work and often that's not possible early in the separation or divorce process.  Often we can reach settlements later in the process, when the spouse may not be as entitled such as just before a major hearing or trial.

[SettingBorders]

Should you ask for a different mediator?  While that might be a lawyer question, perhaps ask the court clerk whether there's a list of mediators.  The court staff can't give legal advice but sometimes you'll get some subtle indication from them of which ones might be better than others.  Sort of, "This one and that one are used a lot."

I was thinking about this too, but one never knows who comes next. That woman at least put a very firm boundary at his demant to have overnights in the first mediation session. I will try one more time with her, will stay very calm and controlled then, stay firm in what I want (hopefully) and when that mediation fails, I will propose family constellations as a way to solve our disagreements.
We're not yet in court, by the way. In Germany you have to do the mediation stuff before you go to court, because you want to show that you're made efforts.

Was the mediator aware of your parenting concerns? 

I don't think so, but I don't point so much at it because I fear to be steriotyped as a possessive mother. My concerns are based mainly on how I know he is. There were some accidents due to his inattention so far, there were phases of total adoring our child followed by phases of neglect, there is his unwillingness to spend money for more than diapers and cloths, and I know he is a little boy far more concerned with himself than he would be able to take responsability for a child, but still there is nothing you could put your finger on. I am documenting and even though it's all no big deal, I think things will add up to something useful one day.

Did stbEx act out in ways the mediator should have picked up on? 

No, he was soo calm.

It is okay if mediation fails.  Yes, it's okay if mediation attempts fail.  You don't have to sacrifice yourself or your boundaries just to make it succeed.  If it fails then you just head to court for the court to decide. 

I try to bang this into my head! I always feel so responsable to make things work. It is difficult to let go of the co-dependency so fast.