Can't Make the Hard Decision

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I really don't know where to go from here.

Last week I posted a thread on Improving talking about invalidation. I realized that yes, I am invalidating. I will also say pretty much anything it takes to end an argument, including outrageous commitments that I am 99% sure I can't keep.

 In my heart, I know I've had the best intentions - desire to save our relationship, calming her fears, keeping the peace. I'd love to keep running head on toward the dreams we share - two kids, a bigger house in a nice neighborhood, love and snuggles and all the joy of being a healthy couple.

But in that same thread, I also realized that the state of our relationship is so bad that I can't even communicate. I can't even take the skills I learn here and apply them. We've reached the end stages of what even a healthy relationship can handle. I really do see no hope here. I'm tapped out and this relationship has played out.

But what next?

I don't see anything on the horizon that would tell me "now is the time - you need to leave." But I can't just keep living with this painful, dead relationship any more.

I need to end it but I can't bring myself to do it.

So yeah, I don't know where to go from here.

Can anyone else relate?

[DaddyBear77]

I really don't know where to go from here.

Last week I posted a thread on Improving talking about invalidation. I realized that yes, I am invalidating. I will also say pretty much anything it takes to end an argument, including outrageous commitments that I am 99% sure I can't keep.

 In my heart, I know I've had the best intentions - desire to save our relationship, calming her fears, keeping the peace. I'd love to keep running head on toward the dreams we share - two kids, a bigger house in a nice neighborhood, love and snuggles and all the joy of being a healthy couple.

But in that same thread, I also realized that the state of our relationship is so bad that I can't even communicate. I can't even take the skills I learn here and apply them. We've reached the end stages of what even a healthy relationship can handle. I really do see no hope here. I'm tapped out and this relationship has played out.

But what next?

I don't see anything on the horizon that would tell me "now is the time - you need to leave." But I can't just keep living with this painful, dead relationship any more.

I need to end it but I can't bring myself to do it.

So yeah, I don't know where to go from here.

Can anyone else relate?

[Red5]

@DaddyBear77,

I have been there too, and then back again... .I can certainly relate, as I reflect, I see the same patterns over and over, and like you, I always cave, and offer an apathetic opology in order to breath just a little more life into the relationship, some one said here a while ago, to not lose yourself, I am trying hard not to do that, it's like I am leading some kind of double life, when I am by myself, away from her, at work, or with others, I am a different person, but when I am with her, I am always on guard, and boy oh boy does that get old, I have "reached the end" many times over the last nine years, and six years of marriage, but somehow, some way, I infuse myself, and find a new way to "cope"... .today marks five daze on the couch, and five daze of cold, and zero communication, she is still mad at me for bailing out and fleeing the last time she blew up... .but I don't fight her anymore, I do no longer try to prove my point, to win a disagreement slash aurgument, .no those daze are long over, but at least now I understand why my uBPDw acts as she does, so for now, I and colored black, and on the outside of her recycling for ever more pattern... .time will tell, I will just keep on "keeping on"... .I will take care of me, and my son, and I will go to work, and come back home, and pay the bills, and take it one day at a time... .look into yourself, and find your inner strength, it's still in their, somewhere, dust off that old checklist, @formflier added a few good items to the one I posted a while back... .there is always a way to get to the next day... .hang in there DaddyBear77... .hang tough !

[Lalathegreat]

I think it was your thread that threw me into a very similar feeling. I don't have as much time with my partner, but immediately I recognized stage 3 and 4 breakdown in my r/s and went into a state of sad resignation. But I also can't seem to just do it.

Wish I had advice. Will be following this thread with interest to see if anyone has any advice one way or the other.

[BeagleGirl]

Your post is VERY well timed.  I logged into the site with the idea of starting a new thread titled "Finally had enough" or something of that sort. 
I just had the first interaction in 2 months with my BPD husband that wasn't strictly logistics about the kids.  We've been separated for 3 months and he has slowly been inching towards reaching out to me on a more personal level.  Today he asked to talk.  Sure enough, I trampled my own boundary and showed some vulnerability towards him.  I shared the hurt I have over the way I feel my parents have sided with him.  I think I was hoping to see the change that he was promising.  What I got was all the same techniques he's used in the past to blame shift, minimize, etc. 
I have been feeling "over" our relationship for a very long time and have been praying to feel released from the marriage (with a token prayer to start feeling something towards my husband if it's God's will that we reunite).  Today I feel released.  Who knows if that feeling will last.  I don't want to live by feelings. 
Part of me wants to run out and take action and "make the hard decision".  For me that would mean filing for a legal separation and starting to move toward financial and custodial agreements that would be more formal and permanent.  The thing holding me back right now is the desire to be VERY sure that I can still be true to myself in that action.  I have an appointment with my counselor tomorrow and I think I will be asking her to ask me the hard questions about that decision. 

But enough about me... .  Back to your question.  I can definitely relate.  Like many here, I've boomeranged back and forth between "If I just try a little harder" and "I just can't take this anymore".  I usually make a pit stop in "I know it's not what I wanted, but I am sure I can live in a loveless marriage for the good of the children".

I think your question "What next?" is the most relevant.  I think that black and white thinking can sometimes be contagious.  I have spent many years feeling like our marriage was either going to be healed and "happily ever after" or dead and divorced.  Both of those options felt completely overwhelming and led to a kind of paralysis.  Though telling our kids that we were separating and moving out felt like jumping off a cliff, it didn't have the finality of filing for divorce.  It gave me the time and space I needed to re-establish my relationship with God and rediscover the woman He created me to be.  I'm still on that journey, but have come to a place where I believe I can start making decisions that are true to myself rather than the reactions of the cornered "animal" I had become.

So what are some next steps that you could take that might start moving you towards a better place to make the "Hard Decision"? 

Here is my suggestion for a good first step.  Find/create a space that is yours.  Maybe it needs to be an apartment or space in a friend or relative's home.  Maybe you can find it in your home.  When your relationship is not such that you can share a bed/room/home with your wife, YOU choose to go there.  It sounds like the couch is somewhere she puts you.  Maybe making the choice to move to a space that is yours would help.

[Notwendy]

I like the idea of making your own private space. I don't know if it could be in your home. Anywhere in the home is where your wife can track you down if she is angry at you and private space may trigger her.

I recall my father making his own space. His work was his retreat. He also liked to go out for coffee. You don't need permission. Either stop on your way to work, or on the way home. Private time for you is a form of self care. It doesn't need explaining. Sure, if you spent hours away from home, it would be inconsiderate, but I am talking about a 20 minute cup of coffee.

If you arrive at a decision, it will be due to self growth. We choose partners who fit us in some way and even if it is difficult, you and your wife fit together. Only if you do not fit would you make a decision about your relationship.

Personal growth is win win. I started MC with my H. We had some of the issues in my FOO but not all of them. Still, some was more than I wanted to deal with. I expected the MC to work on him, but she worked on me. I was the one who was motivated. The tools help. Working on yourself helps. It will either help the relationship or if you chose to leave, help you communicate and navigate the decision better.

When one person changes personally, the other person has to either adjust, or the relationship may not fit. The drama between you and your wife works for both of you. It is familiar, and predictable. Change is not. If you are willing and able to work towards personal change and take the risk, then do it. I will say that working on my own co-dependency resulted in a better me. But it also meant not tolerating some behaviors and having the courage to face the consequence of people we care about not being happy with that.

[formflier]

     

Take a deep breath... .let's focus on the next step.  Just a step

I can't even communicate. I can't even take the skills I learn here and apply them. 

There are plenty of tools that can be used, and while it may not be the communication that you want... .YOU ARE COMMUNICATING your values.

"I'm not going to talk while threats are between us... ."  (as an example).  Solidly in line with tools. 

Many times it is best not to communicate. 

If the choice is bet quiet... .or keep inflaming a wound... .relax and enjoy the solitude of quiet.

I'm also well aware (because I've been there), when such advice seems impossible.  I would encourage you to be deliberate about self care, be deliberate about taking steps to enjoy time with yourself.

Let your SO sort herself out...

FF

[Harri]

Hi.

I don't see anything on the horizon that would tell me "now is the time - you need to leave." But I can't just keep living with this painful, dead relationship any more.

I need to end it but I can't bring myself to do it.

What do you think it is going to take?  Is it possible that everything you have written is the sign you have been waiting for?  I'm not trying to encourage you either way.  It seems to me though that perhaps you already have had your sign and you are instead choosing not to act.  Again, no judgement here.  Something is holding you there.  Figure out what it is and then decide if you stay or leave.

[Notwendy]

This relationship may have drawbacks for you, but if you can't seem to end it, it is probably meeting your needs in some way.

Sometimes the drama, the highs and lows of conflicted and dramatic relationships take on an addictive quality like the highs and lows of a drug, or alcohol. The substance itself may not be good for the person, but the person can not quit it for some reason. Dealing with addictions is more than dealing with the substance itself and it includes dealing with the emotional aspects.

Co-dependent and rescuing behaviors can have addictive qualities.  It helps to understand our part in this- and with motivation, and help ( professionals, support groups) we can make changes. They aren't quick ones- often they take time.

A big one is fear. I was fearful of standing up for myself growing up. Makes sense as a child. I depended on my parents and I was afraid to not have their approval. I was afraid of making them angry. This is normal, functional behavior for someone in my situation. However, as an adult in other relationships it is dysfunctional. This is the kind of change we need to work on.

I think you will be in a position to make a decision, stay or leave, at the point you are able to say no when you mean no, and yes when you mean yes. At this point, your wife will have the choice of how to respond to that. If you don't fear that, you can choose to say yes or no. The first step to being able to say no, I think is to be able to be authentic to yourself, and to believe you are worth doing that.

[DaddyBear77]

i wish I had more time to respond right now, but things have entered a really intense phase. Over the weekend my pwBPD had minor surgery, and the fact that I wouldn't agree with her that I'm a bad person started a huge period of dysregulation. I've been struggling for almost 36 hours now, with periods of calm followed by intense bouts of emotional outburst.

My MIL is over and helping us with D3, and I just finally came down to say good morning and D3 said ":)addy, what is Mommy doing to you?" - I need to dive into that, but when a 3 year old can see something that I can't, you know it's serious.

[formflier]

":)addy, what is Mommy doing to you?" - I need to dive into that, but when a 3 year old can see something that I can't, you know it's serious.

No need to explain to D3.  Assure her that you love her and focus on keeping doors closed so that hopefully she can't hear in the future.

Very little chance that you will convince your pwBPD to quiet down... .focus on removing the audience or putting up barriers to the audience.

Can you let your wife be as intense as she wants... .her choice.  Don't listen or participate to the "bad person" discussions. 

"I will be available to talk about this later this evening.  Will 6pm work for you?"

likely by 6pm the energy will be gone.  Sure it will be back... .  For now disengage.

FF

[Red5]

Notwendy

Sometimes the drama, the highs and lows of conflicted and dramatic relationships take on an addictive quality like the highs and lows of a drug, or alcohol. The substance itself may not be good for the person, but the person can not quit it for some reason. Dealing with addictions is more than dealing with the substance itself and it includes dealing with the emotional aspects.

I remember this, from my first marriage, .at the 9.5 year mark, after affair number two had been divulged, (that I knew about), when things were at their worst, she had moved out, and moved on, as I stood my ground and said no open marriage, and had even filed for divorce... .and it was just me and our three small children... .as she had told me that the kids were better off with me, D2, S5, S8, .so she just packed her a few bags and left... .and I was all by myself, fighting for survival, and clinging to every shred of sanity that I could keep within my grasp, at a certain point, after she left, I got control of myself, the house, the finances, and my own self worth, I began to finally get a degree of peace of mind, and emotional security, and the sheer and utter inner joy, that I may actually be free of her, and her destructive behaviors... .this lasted for several months, .and then her (threats) suicidal gesture(s) started, and she contacted me and wanted to come home, she said I was right, and that she was going to become a changed woman, she was going to get help, and all this "acting out" was now out of her system, she was going to finally get into some real therapy, to understand what had happened to he in her childhood, so that she could be a functioning mother, and wife (again?)... .so I took her back, canceled the proceedings, and we moved to another state... .things were good for a season, but it started a slow and steady decline, not as fast as the first time, but a slow decline, resultant in a divorce eleven years later, and myself becoming a single father (again/permanently), of D13, S16, and a special needs S19... .that was now another eleven years past... .and I am now remarried, and off to an new "mission" with my current wife of six years who I believe is uBPD... .but I do remember that short grasp of time, back in 1994-95 something when I was alone, with the children, just me and them, and I was able to function on my own, and free of the dysfunction of my first marriage... .I do miss that, that feeling, that feeling of independence, freedom, peace, purpose, , yes it was very additive... .a very positive energy to be free for a short while of all the "FOG"... .I learned a lot, and I try to use some of that hard learned knowledge in this current marriage, some things are useful, some are not... .but it is a whole different enterprise this time, as my current wife is obviously a completely different person than the first (now ancient history), .I question I always have had, is do I attract this, or am I drawn to it... .the main reason I stayed with wife#1 for so long (21 years), was because I could not bear to risk losing the children to her and whomever she decided to "get with", .so I stayed, through all the "stuff", .I was in pretty bad shape for a very long time... .I went from acute depression, to codependency, and then to apathetic despondency... .then one day, not out of the clear blue sky, but quite expected... .she made her decision to just leave on her own accord, and she left us all for good... .the wait was over... .and then I stayed single for a while... .a few years, and then I met this one, whom I have no children with, she was also married for 20 years before... .and now it seems after all the fighting, and trying to get it right, trying to understand, trying to understand what I am doing so wrong (again?)... .trying to dissect her anger, so I can side-step, and prevent... .trying in vain to make the point, come to an agreement, or even agree to disagree, .all to no avail, ... .I have gone straight to "apathetic despondency"... .its one day at a time now, .deep down inside my mind, I do miss the freedom of it being over for a while, as it was when my first wife left for a while back in 1994-95 something... .peace, and quiet, .safe place, no BS... .yes, "addictive"... .the ups and downs are... .

[Red5]

@DaddyBear77, & Fromflier... .

"No need to explain to D3.  Assure her that you love her and focus on keeping doors closed so that hopefully she can't hear in the future.

Very little chance that you will convince your pwBPD to quiet down... .focus on removing the audience or putting up barriers to the audience.

Can you let your wife be as intense as she wants... .her choice.  Don't listen or participate to the "bad person" discussions." 

When things get intense with us, my new tactic is to leave, so if its the weekend, and daylight, my Son and I go down to the boat ramp, on the intercostal, and watch people launch and recover their boats, the last time, tomorrow is a week ago now, and the storm is still over us... .I actually had to take my Son, and just leave, it was late, she was raging, and would not stop, so we just left, and went for a long drive... .and came back much later when I was pretty sure she had gone to bed... .and yes, always be strong in front of the little ones, this is a very tough spot, and they will not forget any of this... .I remember back in 1994-95 something, during the rein of the former "ex2b"... .times were pretty bad for a while, so me and my three little ones did escape quite a lot, to the playground, to the pool, to the mall, .or out to eat many many times, just us... .also the sea wall on NAS Pensacola was a great spot to run too with the kids, .escape, don't stay, this is good advice, as Formflier says... ."Very little chance that you will convince your pwBPD to quiet down... .focus on removing the audience or putting up barriers to the audience."... .hang in there DaddyBear77, you are not alone.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey DB77, It's OK if you don't know where to go from here.  That's where you are: on the fence, which is why this Board is right for you.  I suggest you set aside time to sit with your feelings and just observe, without the need to do anything, without the need to judge what you're feeling.  Just observe in a mindful way, then move on when you're ready.  LuckyJim

[DaddyBear77]

This relationship may have drawbacks for you, but if you can't seem to end it, it is probably meeting your needs in some way.
... .
Co-dependent and rescuing behaviors can have addictive qualities.

YES! I can FEEL the addiction. There is a HUGE rush at the end when she finally regulates her emotions again. I feel like I'VE accomplished that, because, duh, I just pushed and pulled for hours to earn this - it MUST be me, right? Right? Wait - why is this happening again? Oh man, more push more pull. Hour 3. Hour 4. Am I ever going to reel this one in? Wait! There it is! The end! Pull pull pull ... .it's slipping. She's going dark again. She's attacking again. One final push, and... .YEAH! We made it! High fives!

What a shi#$y cycle to lock myself in. I never, EVER a really "win" and everything and everyone else suffers around me. 17 years. Always the same.

[Harri]

":)addy, what is Mommy doing to you?" - I need to dive into that, but when a 3 year old can see something that I can't, you know it's serious."

Yes, it is serious... .and it is definitely another signal that you need to pay attention to. 

I take you back to my question:  What more do you need to see?

As to D3, please do tell her you love her but(!) But(!)  BUT(!) elaborate and tell her that it is between mommy and daddy to discuss AND ask her how what is going on makes her feel.  Listen to her.  Validate her feelings.  Do NOT leave her hanging with empty words of love and "don't worry about it sweetie" stuff.  Help her work this through and make sense of it.  She may be scared and worried and sad.  Help her.

3 year olds are smart.  *Infants* can read moods (in an infant kinda way) so imagine what your 3 year old is picking up on.  Unfortunately she does not have the socialization and emotional intelligence to see the whole picture.  Your kids, whether you stay or not, are going to need *a lot* of work on healthy expression of emotions, identification of said emotions and a load of validation of said feelings.  They will also need tools for how to cope with a BPD mother and a co-dependent father.  Seriously, look up emotional development in infants, toddlers, children etc.  I would suggest reading posts on the co-parenting, step-parenting and even parenting boards for tips from the more senior posters who have figured a lot of this out and recognize the dynamics and the needs of the kids.

I know this weekend was tough for you and I sympathize.  Take time to examine your feelings but in the meantime, try not to miss out on opportunities to help your kids.  I guarantee you it will pay off... .and it will help you to focus and use the tools more effectively in your relationship with your wife and your kids.

It is going to be hard.  But I think all of you are worth it.

[formflier]

Are there other explanations for the way you feel?  Perhaps you feel you are protecting others.  Perhaps you are... .perhaps not.

One of the benefits to taking alone time to sit with your feelings (always an awesome idea)... .is that it also gives you time to think through your actions and see who is benefiting and who is not benefiting from those.

Then you can decided to change course... .or not.

Last:  I understand the "addiction" analogy, but I would caution you to shy away from that.

FF

[Lucky Jim]

What a shi#$y cycle to lock myself in. I never, EVER a really "win" and everything and everyone else suffers around me. 17 years. Always the same.

Hey DB, You sound like a character in a fairy tale, sad to say, who has been "locked" away under a spell for 17 years.  Does that sum up your current feelings?

The problem is, a prisoner is more or less a victim with little or no control over his/her situation, whereas I would suggest that you have more power here than you think.  It's your life, after all, and at the end of the day you have choices about how you respond to your situation, right?  So let's start from the premise that you are the person with the most influence over how your life unfolds.

More to say but have to sign off for now . . .

LuckyJim

[Notwendy]

I don't want to get this thread split and on the children's board, but I feel I need to say something about D3 since she is becoming aware of the situation.

You don't need to explain the situation to D3 at the moment, but at one point, please don't deny her truth. This is what will keep her from thinking that being treated this way in a romantic relationship is acceptable. If Daddy says nothing is wrong ,this is what she will think.

I wish someone had validated me. By adolescence I knew something wasn't right. I was mature enough to understand the concept of mental illness. I was already  enlisted as an emotional caretaker, and co-codependent with my father. In fact - that was how I got his approval, and I so wanted that.

It was about this time that I was perceived as a threat to my mother. If I knew something was wrong, I couldn't go along with the idea that the situation was OK. But I did go along with it. I learned that if I said something I would be punished. I was expected to let my mother do whatever she wanted and to obey her. This also meant letting her say and do similar things to me that she said and did to my father.

Whether or not you stay or leave, becoming more able to stand up for yourself could be a gift to both you and D3.  One day you may need to stand up for her.

[DaddyBear77]

@Notwendy thank you for that post about D3, and also @Harri and @FF for your comments.

I can assure you that D3 is getting a lot of validation from me, and we've had more than a few conversations about how she feels when Mommy and Daddy have adult conversations. She is already showing signs of high anxiety and other side effects of being in a home like this. I've already put a lot of what you have suggested into practice, and I will continue to really focus on D3.

As for the suggestion of finding my own space, I have also thought of this many times. Two options that come to mind are 1. Create a basement suite with a locking door, or 2. Rent a nearby apartment with the assistance of my parents. The problem with 2 is that custody becomes complicated - uBPDw is very very triggered by my "alone time" with D3, so there's really no way she'll voluntarily allow any sort of shared custody time, even if only temporary.

The atmosphere here is getting a little less tense so it's a good time for me to take that alone time and think.

[Grey Kitty]

 

As for the suggestion of finding my own space, I have also thought of this many times. Two options that come to mind are 1. Create a basement suite with a locking door, or 2. Rent a nearby apartment with the assistance of my parents. The problem with 2 is that custody becomes complicated - uBPDw is very very triggered by my "alone time" with D3, so there's really no way she'll voluntarily allow any sort of shared custody time, even if only temporary.

OK, if she REALLY can't handle you having alone time with D3, that tells you something about your game plan--getting an apartment and having D3 there at it is something that will only happen as part of a legal separation or custody agreement. That's obviously a big step, and one you need to plan out with your lawyer before you embark on it. So set that aside for a while, and make plans where you can leave D3 with her and go to your separate/safe space. If not making a 'man cave' in the basement, find someplace you enjoy hanging out--perhaps a coffee shop, or a library (although hours for those are pretty limited; never mind that... .), or even a restaurant or bar.

Ultimately, it comes down to you standing up for yourself and your values when she rages, attacks, or manipulates you. If you can't do that, your relationship isn't going to improve. And for that matter, if you are divorced, have joint custody/split custody, and you can't stand up to her then, it will be almost as bad!

So find a safe space, and go there and take care of yourself now and again.

And in order for you to 'enjoy' it, you will have to simply let her be triggered, go there, turn your phone off, and let her be triggered, let her be upset, and let her deal with it away from you.

Question: Do you have a counselor? That might help you a great deal too.

[Notwendy]

Another problem with #2 is the additional expense, even with the help of your parents. It creates a situation where more money is going out of your income. This isn't going to help the financial issues. It also brings your parents into the picture- and creates a triangle with you, your wife, parents. Parents become your "rescuers" in this triangle.

IMHO, any decision you make needs to be owned 100% by you as your wife is likely to be upset about it. Bringing in a third party becomes a triangle.

The basement will likely be difficult as she is in the house.

One solution is not a physical space but an activity that you do alone. A long walk, an exercise routine, a cup of coffee- all provide some alone time. As to D3 an outing with her while your wife does something for herself- get a haircut, visit a friend, get groceries- is less threatening than to take her to a physical space. Take D3 to a park, or read to her in the library, or even a restaurant that has a play area for kids is a huge treat for a child, and it doesn't even cost much.  I think starting with this is less of a threat to your wife and also easier on your finances.

[formflier]

Rather than making the jump to a totally separate space, it might be a good idea to consistently take a smaller step, such as walking away to get a glass of water (and return with one for her).

It's not to much the space as the "idea" that you are a separate person that WILL do things to protect themselves in emotional stress.

Very important to figure out (as best we can) how much of this is separation anxiety (not knowing when you will be back) versus some sort of control thing.

"I'm overwhelmed by this conversation, I'm going to get a glass of water and will be back in 5 minutes."

Makes sure in 4-5 minutes you are back, with a glass for her as well.  Resume with an open ended question... .no blame or explanation for the break.  Just do it and move on.

FF