Anyone have experience with Munchausen/factitious by proxy?

[Depression = 72% of members]

Has anyone had experience with (or even heard of) a BPD family member that also had Munchausen by Proxy or Factitious by Proxy disorder? 

This would be a case in which the BPD faked or over-reported medical symptoms resulting in a child being medicated or having medical procedures that they probably didn't need.

[DonnaQuixote]

Has anyone had experience with (or even heard of) a BPD family member that also had Munchausen by Proxy or Factitious by Proxy disorder? 

This would be a case in which the BPD faked or over-reported medical symptoms resulting in a child being medicated or having medical procedures that they probably didn't need.

[Harri]

I have heard of it and ran into it once at work.

If you have reason to be concerned that to me is enough to call and make an anonymous report.  I read your intro post.  You are in a rough place but if you even suspect abuse, make the call. 

I can see where it would fit into BPD/PD behavior given the inability to see beyond their own issues, projection and inability to handle anxiety. 

Are you in the US?

[Turkish]

Two of my childhood friends went through this.  They turned out ok for the most part (well functioning members of society).

It's this about your nephew? What specifically is going on that concerns you?

[DonnaQuixote]

Yes, we're in the US, and yes this is about my nephew.  Before I post more of a reply I just want to say that I'm really glad I found this site and don't want to misuse it.  I also don't want to makeanyone uncomfortable if there are professionals on here with an obligation to report if there is even a suspicion of something going on that affects a child (though I think this is anonymous?).

I will also say that in my family, things that involve my parents tend to exist in a grey area.  Not normal, but also not abuse. (I'm really struggling with how to see "reality" through that.) So while my sister may be a raging addict, self-harm, try to stab me, be hospitalized and medicated, etc, my parents don't have such extreme behaviors.  So many people on this site are clearly suffering from actual abuse and I don't want to "cry wolf".

I'd like to reply with additional details about what I think is going on with my nephew, but I'll wait a day and give anyone a chance to set me straight if that would be objectionable.  I would also say that I don't see any imminent threat to his life.  Only his health and mental well-being.

[Pilpel]

I feel pretty safe on this site.  I am aware that anyone who happens to come across this site can access anything I wrote, but there are only a couple people who would read all I wrote and know it's me. 

I am interested in the possible case of Munchausen/factitious by proxy you might have in your family.  I think my own mother had some tendencies toward that.  But only a tendency.  She went through a period of depression and hypochondria when I was a kid, but she found her strength and purpose when she could act as a rescuer.  I knew something was off when I was a kid.  But it took me awhile before I could really see it.  Probably not until I had my first baby --who spent the first week in the NICU because of undeveloped lungs. It was a difficult time for me emotionally, but I realized I couldn't have my mom around me because she didn't know how to be helpful in the crisis.  Rather than talk to me in a way that assured me of my strength, her talk was very negative -as if things were out of control, as if I couldn't manage- like she wanted me to be emotionally weak.  I think she wanted me to be emotionally weak, so that she could sweep in and be a hero.  I don't think she was at all intentional in this, but on some level when she saw me in a crisis, I think she had started to imagine the story she wanted to tell about it.  She had already imagined how she was going to call her friends and relatives and be able to tell them this juicy dramatic story about how her daughter was emotionally on the verge of emotional collapse and how she came in and helped out.  In her world, a story like that is the gold of social currency. 

[DonnaQuixote]

Okay then, hearing no objections, I'll just put this out there.  From the time she took guardianship of my nephew from my completely dysfunctional borderline sister, my mom has taken him to a lot of different doctors and therapists to have him diagnosed with various special needs, health problems, etc.

Supposedly he has food sensitivities and so doesn't eat most of the foods that have fiber in them.  So he became constipated and was put on a prescription laxative.  That was several years ago, but he's still on the laxative and has a horrible diet that would constipate anyone.  In theory it's overseen by a doctor, but I have no idea how many different doctors he's had and my dad mentioned something in the past about "doctor shopping."  She has also tried to give my son laxatives when he clearly wasn't constipated.  I think my nephew may also be on some kind of bladder medication.

Then it was that he had some foot and dental problems, to which there is some truth, but she wanted to have him undergo major surgery and dental procedures essentially at the same time.  She said the surgery especially would have a difficult and painful recovery, and it was going to be extra painful with the dental work on top of it, but there was some reason why they just had to be done at the same time.  In the end she didn't go through with it (I definitely expressed concern), but the way she talked about how much pain he would be in was very strange.

When my sister was a very young child my mom took her to a lot of specialists to investigate birth defects/abnormalities, and she had a lot of very painful testing (like electro-shocking, spinal tap, etc) and was given expensive dolls afterwards.  My dad says he's not sure they were all necessary, but he's enough of a narcissist that just having the testing done at prestigious medical institutions would be enough to go along with it... .just to be able to drop the institutions' names and be affiliated.

Back to the present, more recently my mom told me she thought my nephew was going to have a seizure and took him to get medicated for epilepsy. Family history is that several other family members  all had inexplicable, adult-onset seizures, though no doctor could ever find a cause.  I always thought there must be something genetic, but then I read that these things are not usually hereditary, so it is actually weird that so many people in one family would have unexplainable seizures.

So I don't buy it that my nephew is having seizures, and I'm starting to wonder about my other family members, but I also recognize this sounds pretty far-fetched.  Bottom line is, when my mom is around any small heath problem can escalate to an emergency room crisis.  Like Pilpel, I had a very strong instinct not to have her around when my first child was born, not even in the first 2 weeks, or I knew he would somehow end up in the emergency room.  We had her come by sooner after my second child's birth and I did in fact almost end up in the hospital b/c it got very chaotic after she arrived, I didn't get to sleep for several days, and got sick.  I feel so ungrateful possibly attributing that to her, but I have been told that this sort of chaos would be typical around a BPD.

More recently i think there was a week when she took my nephew to about 10 doctors and specialist appointments in a single week.  She seems to drawn to sickness, and the technical jargon about health problems.  She is also the most loving, wonderful grandma and my kids love her and i love her, so i don't get it.

[Pilpel]

Your mom may not be MBP in the way that she's out to get attention, money, sympathy for herself.  Maybe your mom is seeing illnesses that aren't there because it gives her a sense of purpose and being needed. 

Your mom may be well-meaning but the situation you describe sounds very concerning.  If she's looking for problems in your nephew that aren't there, and doctor shopping to find doctors that will be willing to do things that are not necessary that is abuse.  Would you be able to go to these doctor appointments with your mom to see what's really going on?  Or maybe talk to any doctors that you know she's visited in the past?  Or else talk to a doctor or mental health professional that could help you figure out how to best figure out if she is inventing problems for your nephew and what you can do about it?   

[Kwamina]

Hi DonnaQuixote

Before I post more of a reply I just want to say that I'm really glad I found this site and don't want to misuse it.  I also don't want to makeanyone uncomfortable if there are professionals on here with an obligation to report if there is even a suspicion of something going on that affects a child (though I think this is anonymous?).

It is ok, you can discuss these things here. This is a very complicated situation and I am glad you have found your way here.

So many people on this site are clearly suffering from actual abuse and I don't want to "cry wolf".

Abuse comes in many forms, yet the underlying factor nearly all abuse has in common, is the emotional and psychological abuse.

I would also say that I don't see any imminent threat to his life.  Only his health and mental well-being.

I am glad you don't see an imminent threat to his life, but if you feel his health and well-being might be in danger, that's quite serious too.

I also recognize this sounds pretty far-fetched.

Based on the examples you've given in your follow-up post, your suspicions about your mom and family actually don't sound very far-fetched to me at all. I agree with Pilpel that if your mother is subjecting your nephew to unnecessary medical procedures, this indeed constitutes abuse. Even if her intent might not be to abuse him, that would still be the end result of her actions. Have you ever had a real discussion with your mother about your nephew's 'medical' issues and all the things she wants doctors to do to him?

Does your mother perhaps also exhibit other behaviors that you now view as odd or disturbing?

[DonnaQuixote]

I once shared an article with my mom that i'd found about the laxative my nephew is on being harmful long-term and linked to behavior problems... .she ignored it.

I expressed concern about the "multiple procedures at once" idea, but finally said I would just plan a visit to help cheer him up during the recovery.  She ultimately didn't carry through with that one.

I expressed my skepticism about the seizure and concern about the medication; she eventually said she'd discontinued it, but still periodically brings it up ("I think I saw him having jerks the other day"... .like she wants to see what my response will be.  I also don't know if I believe that she's discontinued it.

She never gives me enough details that I can ascertain how many doctors are involved or what all the "issues" are, and I'm almost certain she wouldn't have me along to an appointment.

The problem is that she makes true statements that lead people to believe the opposite of the truth.  So if i ask her direct questions she will give me answers that are technically true but 180 degrees misleading.  Or she says things like "I know what I'm doing" or "You'll just have to trust me."  Also, I'm on the good team now, and if I criticize her too strongly I could get put on the bad team and shut out of my nephew's life completely.  I can pretty much guarantee that if anyone made a report there would not be enough to do anything.

I'm not even sure she has BPD b/c her behavior isn't anywhere near as extreme as what i've read in the other posts here.  She does "split" people though, and always needs an active villain in her life.  

The therapist who suggested to me that she's BPD seems reluctant to get into this topic.  It may be b/c this would be an awkward thing to have to report across state lines and she doesn't want to go there.  Or it could be that she can see I have disordered thinking on this and am making an elaborate conspiracy out of nothing, and doesn't want to encourage it.  I guess I need to either discuss this with her more directly or try consulting a different therapist where I have more anonymity.  

So i think that will be my next step, and i really appreciate all the suggestions, so thanks

[Pilpel]

"I think I saw him having jerks the other day"

That's really weird that she's looking for problems.  It's like a person who wants to have an encounter with a ghost so bad that they interpret every little sound or missing object as the work of a ghost.  

Aside from maybe already having some tendencies, I kind of get her hyper-vigilance in looking for problems with your nephew, considering the cocaine and heroin addict mom.  My son was sick when he was born, and for the first several years I was anxious about every health issue. But at the same time I didn't want to be the mom that runs her kid to the doctor for every little thing.  He's different, he's not as muscular and rambunctious as other boys.  So it took me awhile to accept that that is just how he is, and he's healthy and normal.  He's most likely going to be the comic book/gamer geek in school.  He'll never be an athlete.  And that's okay.

One thing that I take away from my living under my parents' neurosis is the importance if giving kids pride in being capable and strong in themselves.  I've heard true stories of kids who were blind and born with birth defects, but were able to do so much in their lives because their parents refused to coddle them or treat them like they were less capable.  Maybe you can send some inspiring stories like that your mom's way, along with the story of Gypsy Blanchard -- a really shocking and extreme MBP story I only just recently heard about. 

BTW, have you checked out Amazon?  I just did a search, and it looks like there are a few books on the subject.

[Sluggo]

Yes. 

My soon to be ex is out of control with all the appointments and medicines the kids are on since I left.  I have told this to my lawyer, parenting coordinator, and to the judge last week... .  so far nothing...

[Pilpel]

Yikes, Sluggo.  I hope you get some help with your situation.  That would be hard to deal with divorce situation where the ex may not be stable caregiver, yet by divorcing you potentially lose the ability to have a say in how they're cared for while they're living with her.

I'm guessing your here because you believe your ex has a personality disorder?

BTW, i like you're sluggo icon.  That takes me back to when I was a kid. 

[Panshekay]

It's funny that I would find this post. Long story short my soon to be ex DIL who has made many false allegations to DHS about our son.  DHS told us they have concerns she may suffer from MH.  I thought it was ridiculous until reading your story. Maybe DHS seeing this in her isn't so far fetched. I would go out on a limb and say for you to definitely tell someone or bring this up to a professional.  I think you have valid concerns for sure.  Great catch on your part! 

[Turkish]

CPS-like entities may have an anonymous hotline. If possible,  maybe you can start there. 

[Panshekay]

Sluggo, you may want to contact CPS/ DHS. I think this is more of an issue than we realize.

[Sluggo]

Pilpel,

Yes losing the control has been the hardest part.  I have 50/50 legal and have filed 2 contempts for not including on me some major medical decisions.  Those are part of the divorce proceedings as they were lumped in with the divorce. 

Yes 7 years ago she was diagnosed with Paranoid Personality disorder with borderline and histrionic features.  A personality disorder was confirmed with the court ordered custody eval. 

[Sluggo]

Panshekay,

Point taken... .  thank you

[Kwamina]

Hi again DonnaQuixote

Whether your mom has BPD or not, it does become clear that she is exhibiting some very concerning behavior.

The therapist who suggested to me that she's BPD seems reluctant to get into this topic.

Why do you say your therapist seems reluctant to explore this topic? What has he/she said or done (or not said and done) that leads you to this conclusion?

I guess I need to either discuss this with her more directly or try consulting a different therapist where I have more anonymity.  

Your mother might be struggling with distorted thinking and perception, yet in her mind it might be very real which can make it extra difficult to talk to her:

Each person's feelings are real. Whether we like or understand someone's feelings, they are still real. Rejecting feelings is rejecting reality; it is to fight nature... .Considering that trying to fight feelings, rather than accept them, is trying to fight all of nature, you can see why it is so frustrating, draining and futile.

To help you talk to your mother, I encourage you to take a look at some of the communication techniques on this site. These techniques can potentially help you have more constructive conversations with your mother and increase the likelihood of you getting through to her and getting a clearer picture of what's going on with your nephew:

Validate, don't invalidate, but only validate the valid

Express your truth - S.E.T.: Support, Empathy, Truth

[isilme]

So many people on this site are clearly suffering from actual abuse and I don't want to "cry wolf".

I just want to say that abuse is not limited to beating and rages, or being neglected to the point of wearing rags or starving.  This is an after-school movie portrayal of abuse, but abuse takes many forms and often is harder to see and quantify.  You are welcome to talk here.  That's what this site if for - it's not a competition about "I was hurt more than so-and-so" so you are fine. 

I was beaten, and I was neglected, but it was a weird cycle that even now I am amazed how strange my childhood was compared to my peers - there are many things that were "off" that I never realized simply from having no frame of reference.

My mom was keen on going to Drs. and dragging me along.  I think she had some tendencies of this, but it was just a aprt of her weird behavoir.  And since she loved going to Drs. and wanted me to be her clone, she wanted me to love it, too.  She loved taking pills so much she DID (does?  not sure since we are NC) Dr. shop for ones who would give her the ones she wanted.  She liked barbituates, and would make her own cocktails and took so many it destroyed her stomach lining and she got a bleeding ulcer that resulted in 1/3 of her stomach being removed.

So, she tried to get ME hooked on barbiturates.  After she and Dad divorced, I ended up going the opposite way.  Dad was also BPD/a sociopath, and so living with him and wanting to please him, I wanted to be the opposite of my mother.  So when he complained about having to take me for antibiotics when I got sick as a teenager, how being sick meant I was lazy and I cost too much money (he had military insurance and I was still a dependent) I learned to never tell anyone I was sick.  I'd lose my voice, hearing completely in one ear and diminished in the other from chronic sinus infections, but I never asked to stay home from school (I was given chores if I did anyway - no staying in bed), and I think now that my teachers realized something was wrong, because they let me sleep in class since I passed everything with high marks anyway. 

To this day, I have a hard time admitting I need to go to a clinic for sinus infections - I have to be in pretty bad shape. 

I'm not sure what kind of advocacy for an evaluation of the nephew's care can be given, or if here might be some way to ahve it looked into.

Taking laxatives constantly is not good for anyone.  I agree that there is probably some need to show how much she is caring for the child, and how much SHE has been the one to spot all these issues.  It could also be to create a stronger dependency of the child on her, so as he gets older he will have a harder time learning a normal level of independence. 

I hate how CPS works, but I'd also have to recommend mentioning to them or a similar body that this is going on. 

[DonnaQuixote]

In General - Seems like some others have encountered medical issues with BPD's in caretaker roles... .I've been feeling super guilty about making the initial post (what if I'm way off base... .innocent mom would be crushed to read it, and for some reason I feel like she might visit this site... .).  But at least it seems to be sparking some conversations for others on this topic.

Pilpel - Thanks, I should probably check out the Amazon books. 

Kwamina - The first time I mentioned something to the T about mom and medial/sick issues, T sort of ignored or glossed over it and moved on to other topics.  I assumed I was being melodramatic and the T didn't want to encourage me.  When I brought it up again more recently and with more details, and mentioned that I feel really confused, she did say she recommends trusting my gut, but also cautioned me that she would have to report if she believed a child is in danger.  So now I feel alternately like the T doesn't want to talk about it, or that delving into it will get my mom (who seriously may be doing nothing wrong, this could all be in my head) in trouble.  I'm waiting on a referral right now to a different T where I can get into the details anonymously.

I checked out the workshops you mentioned, and the validation and "S.E." parts of "S.E.T." really resonated.  But the Truth part has always felt like a dead-end with my mom on topics like this.  It's always met with silence, a confusing non-truth, or a "just trust me" or "don't borrow trouble" type response.  When I was a teenager I'd push for resolution and it just got us into fights or me being sent away, so at some point I just made a decision not to push anymore b/c I want to have a relationship with her... .agree-to-disagree strategy... .  I guess I can just go with S. and E. for now.  "T." must be a higher-order communication skill!

Isilme - That must have been so painful to have both parents either pushing pills on you or ignoring your medical needs.  I've read through some of the "abuse" reading material on this site and conclude that the best label for what went/goes on in my family is "unhealthy" or "inappropriate" but not "abuse."  For me the word "borderline" has a double meaning... .I know it has the technical definition of a personality disorder, but for me it describes my FOO environment, always teetering on the border line between unhealthy/inappropriate but not abuse. You say

there are many things that were "off" that I never realized simply from having no frame of reference

.  That's exactly how I feel.  No frame of reference from which to accurately evaluate reality, so I tend to either over-imagine wrongdoing or miss it completely and get taken advantage of.

[Fie]

Hello DonnaQuixote  

Maybe I got it wrong since no one mentioned this, but for me it's kind of logical your T does not really delve into the subject of your nephew.
You are in therapy for *you*. Although of course your nephew's case could be discussed with your T, in which case she'd have to report it if she feels it's a case of child abuse (as she indeed mentioned), this seems rather something to  discuss with some authorities that can help your nephew - not specifically with your T.

Please do not feel guilty about posting. We are here to help each other and you are not doing anything wrong. At all. Feelings of guilt towards your mum have probably accompanied you all of your life, but that does not mean that they are justified.

xx

[DonnaQuixote]

Thanks Fie, I never thought of it that way, but it makes total sense!