Studying you

[Depression = 72% of members]

Just remembering my first date with my ex waif/hermit fiance.  We went to a couple places to talk... .I asked her a lot of questions, she answered them all wrong. (History of broken relationships, bad relationships with parents, no deep friendships, abusive exs, etc.)

Eventually, she let me talk... .and I love to talk, especially about deep matters... .I'm a artist and a empath... .so I was just blah, blah, blah ing about all kinds of stuff.

Hours went by as I was joking, teasing her, entertaining her... .I remember how she just sat on the bar stool gazing at me... .like she was studying me with full attention.  I remember thinking... .wow, she's into me! Now, I know I was just her next mark.

The night eventually turned bad, she got really weird.  I thought the friendship was over... .but then a few days later she contacted me as if nothing had happened (gaslighting).

Anyways, my point is... .she became everything I wanted (for the first year)... she mirrored me... .I fell in love with myself.

It's like as emotionally stunted as they are, they possess enough intelligence to learn the big con, like silver tongue serpents... .or chameleons become everything you have ever desired... .in order to extract what they need from you, or in order to fill the void inside.

It's as if when they see loving, caring, empathetic people... .they desire it so badly and they want it for themselves... .hence we are the supply they are looking for.

In the end, when they are done feeding and have moved on to somebody else... .all that is left is a pile of crumbs of who we once were.

Be careful of the quiet ones, they can be just as deadly... .if not more than the overt, cluster B types.

[Huh?]

Just remembering my first date with my ex waif/hermit fiance.  We went to a couple places to talk... .I asked her a lot of questions, she answered them all wrong. (History of broken relationships, bad relationships with parents, no deep friendships, abusive exs, etc.)

Eventually, she let me talk... .and I love to talk, especially about deep matters... .I'm a artist and a empath... .so I was just blah, blah, blah ing about all kinds of stuff.

Hours went by as I was joking, teasing her, entertaining her... .I remember how she just sat on the bar stool gazing at me... .like she was studying me with full attention.  I remember thinking... .wow, she's into me! Now, I know I was just her next mark.

The night eventually turned bad, she got really weird.  I thought the friendship was over... .but then a few days later she contacted me as if nothing had happened (gaslighting).

Anyways, my point is... .she became everything I wanted (for the first year)... she mirrored me... .I fell in love with myself.

It's like as emotionally stunted as they are, they possess enough intelligence to learn the big con, like silver tongue serpents... .or chameleons become everything you have ever desired... .in order to extract what they need from you, or in order to fill the void inside.

It's as if when they see loving, caring, empathetic people... .they desire it so badly and they want it for themselves... .hence we are the supply they are looking for.

In the end, when they are done feeding and have moved on to somebody else... .all that is left is a pile of crumbs of who we once were.

Be careful of the quiet ones, they can be just as deadly... .if not more than the overt, cluster B types.

[once removed]

they possess enough intelligence to learn the big con, like silver tongue serpents... .

remember, BPD is a mental illness, marked by overwhelming emotions, and impulsivity. the feelings are very real, but generally not sustainable. i would suggest it will not be helpful for your healing, or realistic, to see your relationship and the way it transpired as a con job. it is probably a great deal more complex.

It's as if when they see loving, caring, empathetic people... .they desire it so badly and they want it for themselves... .hence we are the supply they are looking for.

... .

Anyways, my point is... .she became everything I wanted (for the first year)... she mirrored me... .I fell in love with myself.

would you say you were looking to her to fill a void inside?

[Huh?]

remember, BPD is a mental illness, marked by overwhelming emotions, and impulsivity. the feelings are very real, but generally not sustainable. i would suggest it will not be helpful for your healing, or realistic, to see your relationship and the way it transpired as a con job. it is probably a great deal more complex.


would you say you were looking to her to fill a void inside?

No, I wouldnt.  I would say I was looking for love... .a life partner.

Are you here because you were looking to fill a void inside you... .or the former?

[once removed]

Are you here because you were looking to fill a void inside you... .or the former?

you know, i certainly wasnt consciously looking to fill a void inside me; i doubt i was aware that i had one. i do think that sometimes in our quest for love, we (usually unknowingly, sometimes knowingly) look to fill voids of all kinds. thats the case for many of us here, as it is for our partners. sadly, the dynamics werent sustainable.

the idealization i received made me a bit uncomfortable. it was nice, dont get me wrong, but it simply didnt ring true. it was over the top.

what made me very comfortable, like you, was feeling understood. like she got me. like nothing i could do could shake her attraction. like she was dependent on me. this made me feel a power and self assuredness id never felt. and all of it was true, at the time, like id bet it was for you, but none of it was sustainable.

i cant tell you for sure whether i had a void i was looking to fill when i began seeing her. i can tell you that i had one when she left, and that void represented what had made me comfortable for so long, and was now gone.

... she mirrored me... .I fell in love with myself.

this is a comforting thought. can you elaborate on it?

[RomanticFool]

I was told that BPD isn't a mental illness, it is a personality disorder. They are not mentally ill, they just haven't grown up emotionally.

Huh, I concur with everything you are saying. My exBPD married lover was quiet and guarded and never gave much away. Never discussed emotions, responded to long texts with short replies, never gave much away about herself but wanted to know everything about me. Kept an eye on me on FB and Twitter but rarely shared herself.

She said she was envious of my lifestyle. Envious of my friendships and my gregarious nature. She started to change her politics to mine, started to get interested in the things I'm interested in, sucked every ounce of love, affection and adoration out of me... .then announced that her husband had found out about me (a lie) and we could no longer see each other. So I had to walk away.

She so wants to be an empathic human being that she works on the phones for a well know suicide prevention charity. Then disappeared on me for a week and blocked my number, for no good reason. I told her she was a disgrace to that organisation and she wouldn't talk to me for weeks.

When they know that we know, the jig is up. Yes, the quiet ones are deadly indeed.

[roberto516]

It feels like a con job for sure. My recycle was calculated. She asked me to come over for about 3 weeks at intermittent periods BUT she wanted to know if I could bring her food from her favorite restaurant, do her homework for her, and walk the dog. She didn't do anything in return.

But it wasn't a con. I thought it was. I said she used me. She said "not intentionally." It wasn't intentional. I believe they are all looking for that caretaker. They are aware enough that they need to show love in the beginning. Be the perfect partner. But then very slowly they start giving less and less. Because a child doesn't give to the parent. I find it very interesting in a sick way. It's like they wake up one day and subconsciously think "Okay. I got him now. He's hooked. Now I don't have to do anything." Invariably it leads us to feel hurt, and we walk right into their own self-sabotage with abandonment fears because we aren't perfect parent anymore.

I do believe she wasn't consciously doing it. There was no "I'm going to get him back, and make him do my homework before I dump him again."

Feelings are facts for them. She longed for me and missed me. Hence we try again. Then she got depressed for a week (in reality it was because she wasn't doing any self-care) but she rationalized that it was my fault. So she was out again.

[Icefog]

Con job is an apt description for some BPD's who knowingly use deception and manipulation. I found out after my ex BPD left that much of what she told me regarding her past relationships with partners, friends and family was simply lies or at the least massive cognitive distortions to portray her as the victim or in a positive light. If that isn't a con job I don't know what is. I simply do not buy that it was unconscious based on her BPD. My ex is not severe enough on the spectrum to be that delusional.

[Huh?]

you know, i certainly wasnt consciously looking to fill a void inside me; i doubt i was aware that i had one. i do think that sometimes in our quest for love, we (usually unknowingly, sometimes knowingly) look to fill voids of all kinds. thats the case for many of us here, as it is for our partners. sadly, the dynamics werent sustainable.

the idealization i received made me a bit uncomfortable. it was nice, dont get me wrong, but it simply didnt ring true. it was over the top.

what made me very comfortable, like you, was feeling understood. like she got me. like nothing i could do could shake her attraction. like she was dependent on me. this made me feel a power and self assuredness id never felt. and all of it was true, at the time, like id bet it was for you, but none of it was sustainable.

i cant tell you for sure whether i had a void i was looking to fill when i began seeing her. i can tell you that i had one when she left, and that void represented what had made me comfortable for so long, and was now gone.

this is a comforting thought. can you elaborate on it?

I'm an artist, she liked art. I'm college educated, she wanted to go back to college. I'm a free spirit, she was always a free spirit. I was interested in volunteering, helping people... .she was interested in volunteering people. I'm a christian, she's a Christian. I like old movies, she likes old movies... .I like old vide games, she liked old video games... .etc, etc, etc.

Except, none of it was actually true.  The reality is during the duration of the relationship... .She never took a single class like she said she wanted too.  She was to impatient to created any art.  She wouldn't travel anywhere without a plan, or unless somebody else paid.  She never volunteered anywhere, was selfish with her time.  She didn't want to actually go to church... .she just talked about christian things, etc, etc, etc.

Like I said, she mirrored me.  I feel in love with myself.

The whole time I thought we were headed towards marriage, she was just extracting my time and money... .she would always tell me how she loved my spontaneous spirit and how she hoped it would rub off on her... .how I was the only one that got her, how I was the only one she could talk to for hours and hours, how during her many silent treatment episodes (breaks) She'd look at the moon and say, "goodnight Huh... .wherever you are"

Yet, she was seeing other people.  When I finally would come crawling back after realizing she'd rather date others than break the silence with me she'd tell me, "I didn't miss you" one day, and " I wasn't happy without you" the next.

But then she'd tell me she did miss me when I didn't see her for a few weeks... .so I'd go see her, then she'd seem anxious to get rid of me after a couple hours.  I was a time filler... .a hiking buddy, nothing more.

She'd go on seperate factions from me, while on them... .disappear, act aloof.  Then she'd email, tell me she misses me... .she wishes I was there... .she wants to go here and there with me... .but she never paid for a single trip when we'd go somewhere in the past.  I paid for everything... .she was hinting she wanted to go to these places... .knowing from the past full well that I would take her.

In the end, I was done being used and manipulated for gifts, resources and my time.  She reciprocated nothing after year one... .strung me along for four years after we got engaged... .she complained about everything, the ring was not right... .I was not stable enough at work, her family didn't like me, etc. etc.

It was maddening trying to keep up with her expectations... .a woman who "would live in a cardboard box with me" but put up pictures of huge houses and Lexus's on our refrigerator as a dream/goal board.  

In the end, I was unable to keep up with her subversive, quiet and underhanded demands.  She was manipulative, controlling, and a cheater... .no matter what I did, no matter how hard I plowed the fields for ten hours a day at work... .she kept raising the bar to keep us from actually moving forward.

This, the woman who would "go anywhere You go" one minute... .and, "I won't move anywhere unless you make more than I do".  One minute she wants to marry me, and can't wait... .the next minute she won't marry me until I prove to her I'm financially fit for it.

All the while, she's hiding money... .covering her bases... .seeing "friends that just want sex".  But rest assured, she just wants me because I'm the only one that goes hiking with her (her favorite activity... .we went almost every weekend)... .nobody else will.

She had this look of terror on her face the day we picked out the ring... .a look of relief the day she gave it back to me... .and feigned sadness the day I told her I sold it after a year of sitting on my shelf, "I don't want to talk about it... its to upsetting to me... .I loved thst ring... .so what should what we do for dinner?"  

It was madness.

So yeah, NPD/BPD people may be just disordered and emotional... .but many know full well what they are doing to others... .there is definitely a sociopathic element to their behaviors... .an end game to extract as much as possible while offering little in return.

I appreciate the comments above, they have been helpful.  I like, "children don't take care of parents" that really hit home with me.  It really is like that, dating a child who is just along for the ride... .for as long as possible until they are discovered... .or there is nothing left to take (financial, emotional, etc)

[Mutt]

Hi Huh?,

Yet, she was seeing other people.  When I finally would come crawling back after realizing she'd rather date others than break the silence with me she'd tell me, "I didn't miss you" one day, and " I wasn't happy without you" the next.

I just want to set personality / mental disorders aside for a minute and focus on this, there are things that you value like volunteering, Christian beliefs but you said that she was mirroring you, nothing like you and it was like loving yourself.

She was straying and covering her bases to use your words, but  do you think that at a fundamental level that you didn't have the same morals and values? It sounds like you weren't compatible with each other, what do you think? Why did you go back if you weren't the perfect match?

[joeramabeme]

Hey Huh?

I think the part about "con job" that Once Removed was making sounds a little bit like this.  She has a personality disorder that is emotionally driven.  Her primary goal is to avoid negative feelings on the inside.  She finds something that "looks as if" it will soothe those feelings and grabs a hold of it and tries to assimilate it.  Not trying to take anything from you, rather, trying to get something that will make her feel more at ease with herself.

To us non's it feels like we are told lies to "con" me out of something or lead me down a false path. That is an obscured view of a pwBPD.  It is a con in the sense that what she claims to have wanted is only an objective representation of what she thinks she can get from it to help her feelings.  But not a con in the sense that much of what she felt, is more than likely, for real.

We feel cheated and lead down a false path that goes nowhere even though it appeared to be our dream.  Likewise for them, they find out that idealizing and mirroring doesn's soothe the inner chaos, and once that is realized, may create even more feelings of chaos.

I believe this is a relatively good description of why we feel "conned" when we were really just following a path that had an unconscious ulterior motive for our partners that both of us did not know exists.

[heartandwhole]

Hi Huh?,

I can see how you have come to the conclusion that you were being studied and conned by your ex. It makes sense, given what you've described--it does sound like one person using another in those circumstances. I'm sorry that your relationship of four years has been reduced to this. That would upset me no end.  

Sometimes I felt kind of used in my relationship, too. I think we all "study" someone we are romantically interested in to some degree. We want to know who they are, and yes, what they want and need. If we really like them, we try to give that to them while maintaining our own values and personalities. In some relationships, however, things aren't so simple. I had very slippery boundaries and began to lose myself in pwBPD's needs. He has BPD, so he wasn't able to sustain the level of stability that I wanted and needed.

I never felt that his mirroring (which felt uncomfortable) was an intentional scheme to use me up and throw me away, though. I'm no professional, but I would say he is as far from sociopathic as I am. For that reason, I think generalizing isn't helpful.

I can see how a realization such as this could help someone detach. Have you found that to be the case for you?

heartandwhole

[Nuitari]

I tend to agree with Huh's analysis. My experience was very similar, and I'm now waking up to the reality that I never really knew my ex. She was playing a character. When I look back at all the things my ex said and did, I can see a strategy behind all of it. It was so blatantly obvious that I don't know why I couldn't see it at the time. Maybe I just didn't want to. What hurts the most was her unwillingness to have any kind of meaningful, grown up, honest conversation with me. It just wasn't important to her. Her only concern was satisfying her own immediate wants and needs, and then telling me whatever she knew I wanted to hear to avoid the access baggage that comes along with having to consider and respect other people. One of the things that I'll always remember most about her is the look that she would get on her face when she knew she was about to get caught in a lie. It wasn't a look of guilt or shame. It was a "what do I need to say now to get out of this" kind of look. I could actually see the wheels turning in her mind as she searched her brain for whatever magical words she needed to say to avoid showing who she really was and what her true priorities were.  After laying down all boundaries with her, I wasn't even deserving of a shred of honest communication, and now I can't help but feel very insulted. I wasn't a human being to her, only a thing for her to use when convenient. We nons like to tell ourselves that the feelings they expressed were real at the time. I think we often tell ourselves this in an effort at self-comfort, but the truth is they know what they are doing. Its a skill that they've spent most of their adult lives perfecting.

[Huh?]

What I'm saying isn't exactly groundbreaking news... .this is a common tactic of people specifically with NPD characteristics.  I've personally seen or experienced it dozens and dozens of times (I work in the automotive business... .a cesspool of users and manipulators)

As far as my understanding is... .NPD and BPD can coexist, especially in a cluster B format.

As far as my ex fiancé and I simply not being compatible... .and that is the sole issue we had... .well, that doesn't explain the rages, accusations against me, allegations, paranoia, GASLIGHTING, silent treatment, etc.

If it was simply a compatibility issue, then wouldn't that just be the answer for every relationship that doesn't work out? Disordered or non? We nons simply aren't compatible with our disordered ex... .we should just get over it with such a simple explanation?

No, she would tell me how she bragged to her family how she didn't have to pay for anything because I always took care of it.  She told me that her sister said She should dump me because I couldn't afford to give her the stay at home mom lifestyle.  She told her sister, I don't want money... .I want Huh.

So why bring it up then? I told her that what she said was abusive (triangulation) and a back handed compliment.  It was the equivalent of me saying to her... ."my brother says I should be with a prettier woman with bigger breasts... .but I don't want that... .I want you".   She didn't like that.  

This same sister, mind you... .dates as many three guys at once to use for vacations, bill payments, dinners and dates... .and on and on, round and round... .the rotation always changes.  My ex used to always talk about how her sisters behavior was so horrible... .yet she kept talking about it... .like with envy.

My exs mom cheated for years, after her dad said enough... .the mom took everything.  He is now a broken man living in rented basement.  the mom remarried and is currently in a loveless marriage and gets a new and bigger house every year... .and all the trimmings.   All the kids had to learn to survive from a young age... .and they are all messed up in their own ways.  I got the "good" one... .the black sheep of the family.

But after five years of hell trying to meet her unrealistic expectations that "werent expectations", I realize she was a wolf in sheeps clothing.  A quiet, scared (she sleeps with two tasers under her bed) sheep needed of rescue by me, her "knight in shining armor"

Anyway, i don't think its as simple as chalking up my relationship as incompatibility or her just taking an active interst in the person they enter a relationship with... .I think often times, especially in the case of NPD there is malicious intent... .very dark intent. It's a matter of survival for them.  I was a utility to her... .I realize that now. There are to many similar stories... .such as the one posted above to say otherwise.

I appreciate the feedback. 9 months post break up and silent treatment, I'm obviously in the anger phase.

I think what I've learned from this experience... .is that people will only take what you give them. I'm gave a lot, she took and literally gave nothing in return... .of course she would let it go on for as long as I would allow it... .she benefited greatly
from the gifts, the trips, the free meals, and having a regular hiking buddy.

All she had to do was keep dangling that carrot, keep TELLING me how much she loves me, but not actually SHOW me... .and she knew I'd always be there.  As soon as I asked her help... .she was gone.

It was all about her, all the time.

Like she said to me near the end, "with what you've told me you put up with in the past... .it makes me wonder what I can get away with"

Letting her treat me the way I did is MY ISSUE that I will work on moving forward. I haven't been on a single date post break up... .I haven't even talked to a woman. Oh, I've been hit on, but I ignore it.   I'm not in a healthy frame of mind... .and unlike a disordered USER, I have no desire to use somebody else as a crutch to move forward.

I've learned a lot. I'm free from her game... .and I'm learning to walk again, but this time I'm going to walk my own way.        

[once removed]

hi Huh?

anger is a normal, even healthy part of grieving. like depression though, it can cloud our judgment, and that can fuel maladaptive coping, and conclusions.

A quiet, scared (she sleeps with two tasers under her bed) sheep needed of rescue by me, her "knight in shining armor"

... .

I think often times, especially in the case of NPD there is malicious intent... .very dark intent.

these are two fairly different descriptions of the same person. which do you think is closer to the truth? what do you see on her end as malicious and very dark intent?

from your description i see a person who gave, and rescued, and a person that accepted your giving and rescuing without much in return. there is a lesson there. what do you think it is?

[Huh?]

hi Huh?

anger is a normal, even healthy part of grieving. like depression though, it can cloud our judgment, and that can fuel maladaptive coping, and conclusions.

these are two fairly different descriptions of the same person. which do you think is closer to the truth? what do you see on her end as malicious and very dark intent?

from your description i see a person who gave, and rescued, and a person that accepted your giving and rescuing without much in return. there is a lesson there. what do you think it is?

Like I said above, a person will only take as much as you give.  I learned to start putting myself first... .which I have already done in other areas of my life.

And as far as coming to maladaptive conclusions on my own... .well, when talking to a brick wall... .that tends to happen.

And yes, they are fairly different descriptions of the same person... .confusing isn't it?  Welcome to the world of loving a disordered individual... .nothing makes sense

Thanks for your interest.