Assertive or aggressive?

[lpheal]

On a recent post I shared the plan the attorney suggested which was to plan to seek a temporary restraining order for domestic violence. After I have documented an episode of abuse with the police L felt like I could get one. This would need to happen on a day when my wife was separated from my daughter and I was also not at home. As soon as the TRO was signed, attorney would contact me so I could transfer 1/2 money out of our combined checking account at the bank. A sheriff would then serve my wife at our house, and she would have a short period of time (no more than 15 minutes per the attorney) to gather up some things and leave the house. She would not be allowed to have any contact with me or D3 until a court hearing which would be 2-3 weeks.

We just moved to our current city two years ago, and my wife with her hermit/waif characteristics has ZERO friends here she could call for help or a place to stay. She isn't even comfortable driving by herself around the city. I know it sounds like I have a case of Stockholm syndrome or am in rescuer mode, but I can imagine this would be very anxiety provoking for my wife who does have undiagnosed issues with anxiety/paranoia. She would have to go find a hotel somewhere in the area and try to figure out what to do from there I guess.

My main interest is in winning the war and not the battle, so in our circumstance would this action be too aggressive? L thinks it would be best to send a strong message up front in this manner. I'm curious if anyone has experience with this.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Far be it for me to make legal advice, but, I'll share my ideas.  I had a similar plan two years ago when my wife was going away (with most of the kids) on vacation.  I considered moving out all my valuables and non-essential household items to a storage unit for safekeeping, closing bank accounts, and getting set to serve divorce papers, and make efforts to have an emergency psych detention (72 hour observation) on my wife.   Legally, it would have been one of the strongest possible hands to play, and would put me at the front, with a long lead.  In a ground-battle type of divorce, that could have been my path.  It could be advisable legally too.  However, I  passed on the opportunity, and am glad I did so.  It turned out I played nice, and let things go. I never filed, and I am still married - though closer and more ready than every before for divorce.  As things worked out, I had a lot of self-work to do. I got another two years building my relationship with my kids (with uncontested full access).  I don't think it is due to Stockholm syndrome, or trauma bonding that you are hesitant or concerned about what would happen to your waif wife when she gets hit with divorce.  I think your feelings show human compassion.  I am very concerned, even empathetic to what my wife would suffer in a divorce.  I think that pain that I would cause is a reason I don't do it.  How ironically the waif turns her helplessness into a weapon - to control you and both abuse and keep you.  

I came to call the divorce you describe as the "alpha strike divorce."  There's a time for that approach, and you may be at that point.  I will suggest that the lawyer is your contractor, and is supposed to get you the best result. However, I'll point out that even after the divorce is signed, it ain't over.  There will always be a kid involved with both of you. A "win" in divorce could lead to losses over the rest of your life.  

There's never a good time or good way to start a divorce, there is much to weigh out and pick the least bad way to do it.  One man's aggressive may be another man's assertive.  I would prefer to not make the divorce initiation a triggering event - which the "alpha strike" certainly would.  

[livednlearned]

Hi lpheal,

From your other posts, it sounds like your L is assertive and not aggressive, which would suggest her strategy is appropriate for the situation. Do you get the sense she is concerned about you and your child's well-being and is counseling you based on her experience with your county's family law court and judge?

My main interest is in winning the war and not the battle, so in our circumstance would this action be too aggressive? L thinks it would be best to send a strong message up front in this manner. I'm curious if anyone has experience with this.

It is kind that you care about her well-being and says a lot about who you are as a person and your values. Hang onto those feelings because they will keep you grounded in the months and years ahead.

Unfortunately, our family law system is adversarial by nature. You could take the gentlest, egg-shelly approach and it may still feel like WW3 to your wife. If she becomes violent over a perceived slight, her ability to regulate her emotions is likely not something you can manage.

A strange logic to consider is that judges may hear how bad things got and then wonder why the heck you didn't leave earlier to protect your child. Because you didn't leave earlier or do the thing a reasonable person would do, the judge then thinks you lack good judgment and gives you less time with the child because of it, figuring that both parents seem to be compromised.

Family law court abides by a different set of rules and logics that are not necessarily self evident.

[lpheal]

A strange logic to consider is that judges may hear how bad things got and then wonder why the heck you didn't leave earlier to protect your child. Because you didn't leave earlier or do the thing a reasonable person would do, the judge then thinks you lack good judgment and gives you less time with the child because of it, figuring that both parents seem to be compromised.

Family law court abides by a different set of rules and logics that are not necessarily self evident.

It has occurred to me this could happen. Since everything has been directed at me thus far, it hasn't felt like my daughter is in immediate danger. What was discouraging and a setback was that after telling my story to the first family law attorney I met with last summer he said there wasn't much I could do to change the fact my wife would get primary physical custody. That just seemed like the wrong answer, and it left me not knowing what to do. After meeting with more attorneys I have now developed strategies of documenting that will be helpful. If I had known some of this a year ago I would be in a much better position now.

I have been told by two attorneys now that if someone has a DV restraining order filed against them it is almost impossible they would be named primary custodian of any children. So I do think that is based on this county's family court and their experience.

The most recent L characterized the family court is a busy place. They are reviewing restraining order requests at the same time as hearing cases. So the easier you can make the decision for them the better. If you present a slam dunk (my words) to them they don't have to waste energy on it. They sign it and move on. The RO against my wife would give them a slam dunk, and would make things much, much easier for me going forward. L also said being organized with preparing and submitting court documents and financial information also is helpful in this regard for the judge and helps your cause. 

[lpheal]

I came to call the divorce you describe as the "alpha strike divorce."  There's a time for that approach, and you may be at that point.  I will suggest that the lawyer is your contractor, and is supposed to get you the best result. However, I'll point out that even after the divorce is signed, it ain't over.  There will always be a kid involved with both of you. A "win" in divorce could lead to losses over the rest of your life.  

There's never a good time or good way to start a divorce, there is much to weigh out and pick the least bad way to do it.  

I love that term! I suspect it will be a triggering event in any way I do it. With each episode of abuse against me, I do feel more strongly that my wife needs to feel some consequences from her behavior though. I have read many times that they don't seek help when you hit bottom, but when they hit bottom. This would feel like that initially, and possibly could prompt her to get help?

The L did also say there's never a good time to do this. In my case L said get out in the next few years before it turns in to a long term marriage and financial support becomes permanent. I also feel like once I know what I need to do with my life, I need to just do it so we both have the opportunity to move on.

[livednlearned]

Your L sounds like she's giving advice similar to what I received.

That first step off the ledge is a doozy, no doubt about it. You are poking the bear.

My ex was not cooperative and dangerous and a former trial attorney because clearly I love a challenge.

In terms of the divorce, I found it was essential to be 10 steps ahead of him, and while that alone did not make it a walk in the park, it did mean that things were more often working in my favor than not.

With all the stress that goes with this stuff, having a small advantage can at least make you feel that you are losing less, even if you are not always winning.

I wish it were easier.

[ForeverDad]

My situation was similar to your situation.  I had called the Emergency Services and police responded.  They almost carted me away but my son was sobbing and like a leech in my arms and so they left.  Once I downloaded my audio recording of the events surrounding my call for help, the officer listening said I had to make a report and they'd take it from there.  She was arrested for Threat of DV.  The end result was that I got temp protection and possession of the home.  She came back a couple times, with police presence, to get her personal possessions.

So, did I regret doing so?  Frankly, no.  I had no other recourse.  Her increasing opposition and obstruction would have soon come down hard on me.  I chose to be proactive.  If I wasn't then she would have found a way to seize control of how our marriage was unwound.

I too felt sorry for her, I hadn't done anything for years as things got worse and worse, until I had to do something for protection of self and parenting.  So keep in mind, you have to do what you have to do, for the good of all.  We have a phrase here FOG = Fear, Obligation, Guilt.  Beware of losing sight of what you must do and why.  If you feel you ought to, such as if she doesn't work, then you could provide her some limited money for rent or other expenses.  But really, she's an adult and it is her responsibility to handle her own life.  Your concern, sadly, has to put yourself and your children first.

There was one problem I faced.  Despite her clear rages, she skipped over to family court as soon as she got out and filed for protection against me and included our child.  Of course once CPS stood up and stated they had "no concerns" our son was excluded for her claim.  Then the magistrate made a 'standard' temp order gifting her temp custody and temp majority time.  So I had the house but she had a favorable custody/parenting temp order for over two years during the entire divorce process.

So how has your lawyer addressed the temp custody and parenting side of a restraining order?  Residence is one thing, not so hard for you to get.  But her actions may be considered adult behavior between you and her.  Would it apply also to her parenting behavior and have an impact on who gets temp custody and what the parenting schedule would be like?

[insideout77]

Sam:
alpha strike divorce
the BPDw will look at anything you do as "the alpha strike force"   don't delude yourself into thinking that there is a soft way to sell this to them.

Lpheal:  it sounds like your L is giving good advice!  why don't you have atleast the same compassion for yourself as you have for her? if she is truly needy as you describe then she should have thought about her options before she was abusive. This notion in your mind that its your job to take care of her is what is causing you to stall and 2nd guess the attorneys advice.   stand up and protect your kid. don't wait

[lpheal]

don't delude yourself into thinking that there is a soft way to sell this to them.

Lpheal:  it sounds like your L is giving good advice!  why don't you have atleast the same compassion for yourself as you have for her? if she is truly needy as you describe then she should have thought about her options before she was abusive. This notion in your mind that its your job to take care of her is what is causing you to stall and 2nd guess the attorneys advice.   stand up and protect your kid. don't wait

Thank you for the feedback. At this point to me it feels less like I am in rescuer mentality and like I am trying to very clearly define my goals, so from there I can develop a strategy and the tactics. For example, is the tactic of the alpha strike consistent with the strategy of an assertive approach that puts me in the best position of the goal of greater than 50/50 custody? I also want to do a sanity check before retaining an L with a very high retainer fee. I think it's worth the money though.

My wife is in "close to normal" mode the past few weeks, and things have been calm. So I feel like I have the luxury of this time to plan more carefully. I notice I am NOT doing what I would have done 12 months ago, which is just assume my wife was really mad before, she is over it now and everything will be back to normal again. I don't think like that anymore.

In an earlier post, you had referenced the 14 points of another member that sounded really good? Do you happen to have a link to that?

[livednlearned]

For example, is the tactic of the alpha strike consistent with the strategy of an assertive approach that puts me in the best position of the goal of greater than 50/50 custody? I also want to do a sanity check before retaining an L with a very high retainer fee. I think it's worth the money though.

I think your L is trying to help you minimize risk, as contradictory as that may seem to the strategy/tactics proposed.

Minimizing risk with a high-conflict and dangerous person is a bit of a shock to the system, especially for those of us who felt that submission/passivity/avoidance was the key to managing risk in the relationship. If that approach worked, we wouldn't be in these situations  

The piece not clear yet (because you are at the beginning of this process) is that the court system tends to escalate conflict because it is by its nature adversarial. Your L is advising you how to swing to the most assertive side of things, knowing that a high-conflict person will swing fast that way too. You have to be prepared for this, and what may feel like drastic tactics are simply what has to happen to keep the playing field level.

What makes her seem assertive: She is recommending the TRO so that you have a legal form of documentation that is more persuasive than any other kind of document.

This document will provide family court with evidence that something is seriously wrong -- and won't be based simply on hearsay from a disgruntled dad.

There will be lies from the other side so documenting that you are seriously trying to protect your child will give you an advantage.

I think your L is trying to show you a strategy toward credible evidence.

Keep in mind, too, that your wife will likely lawyer shop until she finds someone who reflects her own dysfunctional approach to conflict. This person will likely be aggressive -- you can tell because those kinds of L will intentionally tangle up the process with unnecessary hearings, obstruct the process in all kinds of ways, make constant demands -- someone who might believe that wearing down the other side is the only way to win.

[lpheal]

I think your L is trying to help you minimize risk

What makes her seem assertive: She is recommending the TRO so that you have a legal form of documentation that is more persuasive than any other kind of document.

This document will provide family court with evidence that something is seriously wrong -- and won't be based simply on hearsay from a disgruntled dad.

There will be lies from the other side so documenting that you are seriously trying to protect your child will give you an advantage.

I think your L is trying to show you a strategy toward credible evidence.

I agree completely with all of these comments above. I think there is some cause for concern about false accusations, and if this is out there first L did say it makes subsequent accusations from the other side look much less credible.

[livednlearned]

I can understand how it might feel like aggression.

Strategically, the way assertive and aggression is defined by Bill Eddy, what you are dealing with is assertiveness.

Which is not to say that it will feel better to pull the rip cord. I felt sick to my stomach when I left with S15 (9 at the time). We left abruptly and went to an undisclosed location at my L's recommendation, after getting all my documentation in a row the year prior.

If you can have a therapist lined up, or at the very least one or two friends who will help you with the roiling emotions, that is ideal.

Sometimes I think we are just as afraid of our own emotional response as we are of our ex spouses 

[lpheal]

I can understand how it might feel like aggression.

Strategically, the way assertive and aggression is defined by Bill Eddy, what you are dealing with is assertiveness.

Which is not to say that it will feel better to pull the rip cord. I felt sick to my stomach when I left with S15 (9 at the time). We left abruptly and went to an undisclosed location at my L's recommendation, after getting all my documentation in a row the year prior.

If you can have a therapist lined up, or at the very least one or two friends who will help you with the roiling emotions, that is ideal.

Sometimes I think we are just as afraid of our own emotional response as we are of our ex spouses 

Thank you for the feedback. It's great to get all of these opinions and hear how this sounds like an appropriate middle ground to most people.

One idea your post brings up is still serving my wife with the TRO, but I could take my D3 with me to an undisclosed location (and my wife would stay in the house). Legally it should have the same effect, and she hates being alone in the house (so it's not like she'll be very comfortable anyway). If I had any lingering guilt about kicking her out on the street with 15 minutes notice, it would alleviate that.  You aren't abandoning someone if you leave them in the house with accessing to financial accounts, internet and car. I think I would also leave the house with D3 to an undisclosed location for a period of time anyway when I serve the TRO.

Last August I left the house for 24 hours when the physical abuse occurred in front of our daughter. I felt some guilt toward my wife, but the bigger problem was I realized I had an incredible amount of guilt about D3 and she needed to be with me in that situation. So I resolved to slowly and quietly prepare myself so that next time I wouldn't come back (and wouldn't need to come back). Interestingly, my wife used my guilt against me at that time... .repeatedly saying I had "abandoned" my daughter. Every L I spoke with said I did not.

[insideout77]

lPheal:

Before you leave your house, check with your attorney that you can actually get back. if you file a TRO then returning to house is unlikely and then your holding the empty bag while she lives in the house. Does she have any family somewhere in world?  let them take care of her.

I was there just 2 years ago and I know how hard it is to avoid rocking the boat when things are quiet. I was always waiting for the next chaos time to bring something up. The reality is the reason its quiet has nothing to do with you and everything to with a lull in her madness which can erupt and explode at any given moment.

Make no mistake, trying to be nice to her and worrying about how she will survive and live will not help you even one iota once she finds an disordered attorney just like her who will file everything and the kitchen sink against you. She will also find that attorney, these disordered people have a magnet drawing them together and she will become the biggest victim and you will Mr Evil.

A close friend of mine dealt with this 9 months ago and I begged him to file a TRO and not wait. He stalled (I don't blame him) and he stalled some-more and then guess what happened?   She surprised him and filed a TRO  (he was shocked) and now he is dealing with playing catch up for 9 months and still months way from getting decent time with his kids.   

My point is , don't underestimate your BPD spouse.   You were fooled for many years and many others will be fooled while you clean up the mess. your L is giving you a path to get there faster.

[livednlearned]

One idea your post brings up is still serving my wife with the TRO, but I could take my D3 with me to an undisclosed location (and my wife would stay in the house).

You know best what you feel capable of handling right now. It does take strength, and you are the best judge of what you can handle right now.

I had the strength to leave with my son. I did not have the strength to kick my ex out of the house. There were some other safety issues connected to the house that made it less appealing as a place to recover, too.

However, dealing with the house turned into a never-ending saga of obstruction, stonewalling, and hearings. I gave him the house and it ended up costing me.

Your biggest advantage in these cases is leverage. Giving her the house will be giving away leverage.

At the same time, being in a new place can be psychologically important. Not to mention, you may find it easier to enforce the TRO if you are somewhere she cannot find you. If there is a TRO and she knows exactly where you live, that makes it harder for her to ignore her powerful impulse to watch you or seek you out. And if that happens, you have to report that to the police as part of the TRO. Otherwise she will be emboldened to ignore it even further.

Whatever you decide to do, we'll be here for you.

LnL

[SamwizeGamgee]

This thread has been very educational for me, thanks for the contributions.
I am just afraid of going "alpha strike" and yet, as was pointed out, my wife _will_ view anything de-stabilizing as an alpha strike. Your words ring true, Insideout77. 

My wife is also in a mode right now of perfect behavior, so even contemplating divorce seems absurd.  I know that the raging monster is hidden in there somewhere, but, between my fears of conflict and her model behavior right now, I'm just living day to day in a cold, but calm, detente.

If I go for divorce, I know I'll have to make the decision and hand over some of the "dirty work" to the lawyer.  It's odd how I'm willing to defend myself against other forms of harm, but don't want to do something to hurt my wife's feelings even with my mental health at risk. 

[livednlearned]

It's odd how I'm willing to defend myself against other forms of harm, but don't want to do something to hurt my wife's feelings even with my mental health at risk. 

This is the codependent's dilemma 

[SamwizeGamgee]

This is the codependent's dilemma 

Nice guys finish last.

[ForeverDad]

Are you filing to include your daughter?  My ex included our preschooler in her allegations against me.  Once in her first attempt at a TPO and again a few months later in response to my divorce filing when she filed for harassment/stalking.  Both times the conflict alleged between parents was not seen as extending to the children and so he was removed for those cases.

I'm not saying you shouldn't bother filing for your child.  Quite the contrary, if you have reason to include your children about incidents impacting parenting, then do so.  (Frankly, whether or not you do include, she's likely to respond bring the children into the legal struggle.  And then if you didn't you'd be on the defensive.)

One observation made here is that the temporary orders have a tendency to (1) last longer because divorce cases take longer and (2) morph into final orders. So it is smart to get the best parenting schedule possible in the initial temp order.

[lpheal]

Are you filing to include your daughter? 

The L told me that my daughter would automatically be included in any TRO involving me. I definitely would include her if it did not.

I hadn't considered that if I left my wife in that house with my stuff for even a day in those circumstances everything that is mine or was a gift from my family would end up in the street or in the trash bin with the next collection. Scratch that idea!

I have a very busy work schedule which is sometimes not very flexible, and sometimes I have to go out of town for the weekend. I don't have the type of job my daughter can just tag along with me. So I need to plan my schedule, childcare, backup plans for her and then go from there. I'm trying to do all of this very quietly, while keeping up at work and looking like nothing is going on at home. I think the initial series of events of the "alpha strike" will happen quickly, so I need as much planned out as possible before hand.

I did ask the therapist last time I saw them if they thought I was displaying codependent traits. They said they had been looking for evidence of it in me, but I was making decisions based on what I wanted and was not talking like a codependent (I wasn't blaming or projecting)? I would say I felt stuck a year ago, but I now feel like I'm doing things according to my time schedule.

[insideout77]

SamwizeGamgee:

There is a reason why it feels like Alpha Strike no matter what you will do. "Abandonment" is a major trigger for a BPD. So any reality of divorce no matter how gentle you couch it is going to trigger that feeling and as you know once its off to the races, its gone.

2nd. I want to correct you. Nice guys do not finish last. 

Rather "Co-dependents" who try to be nice to everyone besides themselves, finish last.

Its hard to see through the FOG.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I found that my fatal flaw is that I'm a caretaker.  Although I'm very independent and self sufficient, that leaves me vulnerable to collecting and keeping a BPD wife.  This place advocates a lot for self care.  That's good advice for me to hear.
The FOG is everywhere, that's for sure.