Introduction and feeling uncertain.

[gobedaw]

Hello. I'm a 33 year old man from the midwest. I was previously in a relationship with a woman with BPD that nearly destroyed me. I'm still mentally damaged from it. But the more immediate reason I'm here is my sister in law.
I don't know what to do. She has latched on to me as one of her favorite people And for a while, that was fine with me. We clicked as friends and got along well. There were always relationship problems with her and my brother, sometimes worse than others. And at some points in time I was actually convinced he was the one being an A$$ to her without any justification. At some point in time, early on, she told me BPD was one of her diagnosis. I try to be understanding of these things since I have severe depression, anxiety and ptsd myself. Anyway, at first I wasn't convinced she was really BPD. I think she had me fooled. I also associated BPD with my ex, who of course in my eyes is just terrible. And I didn't see my sister in law who I got along with so well, as being capable of the sort of malevolence my ex was. My ex may actually be more narcissist than anything else though.

Anyway, as time has gone on I've seen more and more of her complete manipulation, distorted reality. When you read about borderline, she fits it all. I can barely hold my tongue anymore when she tried to start arguements with my brother in front of me. I can barely even stand being around her anymore. I find myself trying to avoid her, not only because she her words and actions stress me out, but also because I don't want to constantly be guilted into doing things for her just because she doesn't want to do them herself. Or listen like her therapist and actually try to keep a straight face or not bluntly hit her with truth. I can't listen to whining about being everyone else's victim. I can't deal with her trying to make everyone else feel crazy for not seeing things her way. I could go on and on, but I know most of you know exactly what I'm talking about or at least recognize some of the behaviors I've listed.

Total avoidance isn't an option. I would have no problem cutting ties with her, knowing I'm saving myself from unneeded pain. I struggle enough with depression, so I can't put myself out there to be a "victim" or giving someone else a chance to steal any little bit of contentment I'm able to find in my own life. The reason I say cutting ties isn't an option isn't even because she's married to my brother. I would even cut him off. But their daughters, my nieces... .They adore me. I adore them. I think having me in their life is beneficial and they need as much of that as they can get since their mother is very unstable. Those girls are the primary reason I refused to surrender to depression in 2016. I might not have decided to stick around if it weren't for them. So, like I said, cutting all ties isn't an option, otherwise I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I need advice. I don't know how to continue to spend a significant amount of time around this person without sacrificing my own mental health. Any advice, feedback, questions, etc. All welcome.
Thanks for listening. Sorry if I've rambled but I didn't sleep much last night thinking about this, and I still have stressful thoughts about the situation racing through my head.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey Gobedaw:  
Welcome to the community!  

I'm so sorry that you suffer from depression.  I struggle with depression and anxiety, so I have some idea about how hard it can be.  I'm glad that your nieces are a bright spot in your life and that that led you to make the right decision in 2016.

Sounds like you are in a tough spot with your SIL.  I can understand how frustrating and uncomfortable that must be for you.  Is your SIL getting any treatment for her BPD?  (med and/or therapy).  

The more immediate reason I'm here is my sister in law.
I don't know what to do. She has latched on to me as one of her favorite people. . .at first I wasn't convinced she was really BPD. I think she had me fooled. . .There were always relationship problems with her and my brother, sometimes worse than others. . . at some points in time I was actually convinced he was the one being an A$$ to her without any justification.

It seems to be common that people with BPD (pwBPD) will  SPLIT   people, either good/white or bad/black.  pwBPD tend to save up their anxiety and release it where they feel most comfortable.  Frequently, that will be at home and someone tends to be the scapegoat.  Sounds like your brother may tend to be the one split black.

I can barely hold my tongue anymore when she tried to start arguments with my brother in front of me.  

A good strategy to follow is: DON'T JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain) and avoid circular arguments  Click on the green words to get to the workshop.  

Perhaps your brother might want to join the community and post on the "Improving Board".  It can help him gain some communication strategies or improve his current strategies in dealing with your SIL.

I can barely even stand being around her anymore. I find myself trying to avoid her, not only because she her words and actions stress me out, but also because I don't want to constantly be guilted into doing things for her just because she doesn't want to do them herself. Or listen like her therapist  

It's definitely a good idea to stop being her therapist.  Since you likely evolved into that situation over time, it will likely take some time and effort to strategically evolve away from it.  It should help you to start setting boundaries with your SIL.

BOUNDARIES:
Boundaries are for your benefit, and it is up to you to enforce them. Whether you need to set a boundary now or later, best to be prepared:  

BOUNDARIES WORKSHOP

BOUNDARIES ARTICLE

EXAMPLES

FIVE SIGNS OF UNHEALTHY BOUNDARIES

You can't change your SIL, but you can make things better for you by using certain communication skills and various stratgies. A communication skill that can be helpful is SET.  The info. at the link below should be helpful

SET (Support, Empathy and Truth)

You can find more helpful information (workshops and articles) in the "Lessons" thread at the top of the threads.  If you go to the large green band at the top of the screen, you will find a "Tools" menu.  Check out the lesson on ":)on't Invalidate".  It is most important to NOT invalidate (by word, expression or body language).  Beyond that, it can be helpful to validate her feelings, once you feel comfortable with using the technique.  Validating feelings isn't about agreeing with someone's logic.  It is merely acknowledging a person's feelings (even if the feelings don't seem justified to your).

I don't mean to overwhelm you with information.  Take it a step at a time.  Some people like to come back to their thread and check their understanding of some skills and/or to share examples of a situation and gain input from others on strategy.

Give boundaries and some of the communication skills a try.  Perhaps one strategy might be to use "I" and "We" Statements (and not a "you" statement). When your SIL complains about your brother.  You might want to set/enforce a boundary by saying something like:  "I feel uncomfortable discussing such personal information about your relationship with my brother.  I think we would both be better off if you consulted a neutral party, such as a therapist.  I can understand your need to discuss your feelings and situations with someone, but I can't be that person, as it makes me uncomfortable.  I care about both of you."

Keep up posted on how are going.

[gobedaw]

Thanks. I'm going to do some of that reading now.
And to answer your question, she has been on various meds for many years and in and out of therapy for many years. However, she just recently started CBT, which she needs. It's my understanding that having just started behavioral therapy for the first time she has a VERY long road ahead of her with that.

[gobedaw]

My bro just stopped by here to take a look at a plumbing problem for me and we talked for a while. He was talking about the new people his wife just moved into the house. I didn't even mention that. She has a circle of friends that only come around when they need something. She won't tell them no and it always goes badly. This was just like my ex with BPD. It makes no sense that BPD people literally invite drama and bend over backwards to help people who don't care about them, and then treat the person closest to them so badly.

It is also ridiculous to me that because of this, people are constantly coming into and out of the lives of my nieces. Yet another reason I can't even bring myself to spend less time there. Their dad and myself are the most stable people they have in their lives. And that's saying a lot because I have a lot of my own struggles, and their father is run ragged by trying to take care of everyone and appease his wife. Ugh. I don't know what to do. I have to go to their house in a little while. I can limit my visit to a relatively short one. But I dread it. I dread the self absorbed me me me conversations, and expecting me to validate them.

I no longer validate anything she says. I mostly sit in silence and try not to give much indication of whether I agree with her or not, although the majority of the time she's making no sense.
Can someone who has been there please give me any firsthand advice? Should I be doing something differently besides trying to be quiet and not validate her? I don't know how long she's going to keep letting me get away with doing that.

[Naughty Nibbler]

Hey again gobedaw:

  She has been on various meds for many years and in and out of therapy for many years. However, she just recently started CBT, which she needs. It's my understanding that having just started behavioral therapy for the first time she has a VERY long road ahead of her with that.

Just wondering if you brother was aware you SIL has BPD, before he married her? 

It's encouraging that she is currently in therapy.  There is no easy fix.  For those who actively participate in treatment, they can tame and perhaps eliminate a few BPD traits.  In some instances, they could lose enough traits to lose an official BPD label. There probably aren't many pwBPD who will successfully eliminate the majority of their BPD traits for the long run.  As time marches on, there will be life stresses that can trigger a resurgence of some BPD traits. 

Everyone with BPD has a unique set of circumstances.  Genetics, environment or both can be in play and most pwBPD have anxiety, depression or other mental health issues.  Just as people WITHOUT BPD can have life-long struggles with managing anxiety and depression, most people with BPD will have their struggles as well.

[gobedaw]

Hey again gobedaw:
Just wondering if you brother was aware you SIL has BPD, before he married her? 

It's encouraging that she is currently in therapy.  There is no easy fix.  For those who actively participate in treatment, they can tame and perhaps eliminate a few BPD traits.  In some instances, they could lose enough traits to lose an official BPD label. There probably aren't many pwBPD who will successfully eliminate the majority of their BPD traits for the long run.  As time marches on, there will be life stresses that can trigger a resurgence of some BPD traits. 

Everyone with BPD has a unique set of circumstances.  Genetics, environment or both can be in play and most pwBPD have anxiety, depression or other mental health issues.  Just as people WITHOUT BPD can have life-long struggles with managing anxiety and depression, most people with BPD will have their struggles as well.

I'm not 100% sure. He knew she had multiple mental health diagnoses, including bipolar. Not sure if he knew specifically about BPD. But I'm not sure if it would have mattered, because still to this day I don't think he's ever done any reading on the topic. He has gone with her twice now to the therapist she sees twice every week for BPD. It might be helpful. The therapist sounds very reasonable and professional. And they both say she's great.
One thing that concerns me, or at least confuses me, is that after a few weeks of this therapy my SIL is VERY often talking about how much better she's gotten since she started. And even telling me about how other people are telling her how great she's doing. I'm really not trying to be a jerk or rain on her parade, but from my point of view, she's gotten worse in that time period.

[Naughty Nibbler]

  It makes no sense that BPD people literally invite drama and bend over backwards to help people who don't care about them, and then treat the person closest to them so badly.

My sister is the same way.  Drama seems to be addictive for some people with BPD.  I think they get a mental high off of it.  The same with playing the role of a "rescuer". 

Can someone who has been there please give me any firsthand advice? Should I be doing something differently besides trying to be quiet and not validate her? I don't know how long she's going to keep letting me get away with doing that.

By saying nothing, you aren't invalidating her.  That is a strategy to use.  You don't have to validate her feelings, just don't invalidate them.  Staying neutral and without opinion is okay.  There is a strategy called "Medium Chill".  It sounds like you are already using it.  If you just keep being pleasant and rather boring, she will eventually get bored with you.  Just be pleasant and try not to share.  Just listen and don't react. 

SOME OR ALL OF THE SKILLS FROM THE SURVIVAL KIT BELOW CAN HELP  (Click on the green words to get to articles/lessons)

1. DON'T JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain) AND AVOID CIRCULAR ARGUMENTS

2. TAKE A TIME OUT

3. USE THE BIFF RESPONSE (Be Brief, Informative, Friendly and Final in your response)

• Keep your response brief
• Just the facts
• Don’t give the other person a reason to get defensive and keep responding
• Just make your message sound a little relaxed and nonantagonistic
• Be careful not to make comments that invite more discussion

4. TRY MEDIUM CHILL

• Tell them nothing, ask them nothing, and offer vacuous pleasantries.
• Don't show anger
• Don't validate or invalidate (by word, expression or body language).
• You are neutral and somewhat neutered.

5. ACT LIKE A ROBOT

ROBOT MODE:
It consists primarily of locking away your emotions and intellectualizing about what is happening between you and the narcissist - instead of feeling it. . .

By putting your emotions out of reach, and blocking them off, you take away their ammunition against you.  They are unable to "read" you.  By cutting off your emotions, you are now on the same playing field with them.  You can coldly calculate your next move,  just as they do.  You are now talking to a Robot as a Robot.  Robots don't emote.  They don't react.  Robots don't care.  Robots can't be guilted, or shamed, or bullied. . .

By putting your emotions out of reach and blocking them off you take away their ammunition against you.  They are unable to "read" you.  By cutting off your emotions, you are now on the same playing field with them.  You can coldly calculate your next move,  just as they do.  You are now talking to a Robot as a Robot.  Robots don't emote.  They don't react.  Robots don't care.  Robots can't be guilted, or shamed, or bullied. . .

It's important to point out that Robot Mode is not about dissociation, spacing out, tuning out or "leaving the room" mentally.  It's about being more present, more aware, more in the moment.  You have to stay with your body and in your mind in order to protect yourself.  It's about walling off your emotions so they are protected, not disconnected.  It's about staying on guard.  It's about putting up your defenses and protecting the sensitive, caring, empathetic part of yourself the narcissist seeks to manipulate. 

[Naughty Nibbler]

thing that concerns me, or at least confuses me, is that after a few weeks of this therapy my SIL is VERY often talking about how much better she's gotten since she started. And even telling me about how other people are telling her how great she's doing. I'm really not trying to be a jerk or rain on her parade, but from my point of view, she's gotten worse in that time period.

Some people might be trying to encourage her with praise.  Since you have served as her 2nd therapist, as you set boundaries, things will likely get worse for you, before they get better.

This article on Extinction Bursts could be helpful:
EXTINCTION BURSTS

[gobedaw]

Thank you so much for all of the info NN.
I am indeed already practicing medium chill, without knowing it. Or at least not knowing there was a name for it.