Feeling of responsibility keeping me in the marriage

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Everyone needs to make their own decision here in their own time.

How did you feel about talking to the attorney? Did you feel relief? Comfort? DIScomfort? Did you feel like you were doing the right thing? The wrong thing?

We talked about this before and there are many ways to help your wife maintain insurance coverage, all the way from helping her find private insurance to encouraging her to find an employer that is willing to be flexible but also offer benefits, through unions (you said she was a musician? My sister in law works for a musicians union and I know that benefits for members is a huge thing). You could also do any of those things in combination with COBRA in the mean time. Your state also might offer options that include legal separation that still allows her to remain on your insurance.

My point is, please try not to let a solvable problem stand in the way of something bigger that you know is right for you and your child.

As Grey Kitty mentioned, the type of divorce you're likely to encounter if you go down that path is called "high conflict" and not every attorney is as good as they say they are. I've talked to two over the past couple of years. The first was really expensive but really good. The second was cheaper but I left with an uneasy feeling about her ability to problem solve. There's a book - Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline - that covers a lot of this and is highly reccomended.

[DaddyBear77]

Everyone needs to make their own decision here in their own time.

How did you feel about talking to the attorney? Did you feel relief? Comfort? DIScomfort? Did you feel like you were doing the right thing? The wrong thing?

We talked about this before and there are many ways to help your wife maintain insurance coverage, all the way from helping her find private insurance to encouraging her to find an employer that is willing to be flexible but also offer benefits, through unions (you said she was a musician? My sister in law works for a musicians union and I know that benefits for members is a huge thing). You could also do any of those things in combination with COBRA in the mean time. Your state also might offer options that include legal separation that still allows her to remain on your insurance.

My point is, please try not to let a solvable problem stand in the way of something bigger that you know is right for you and your child.

As Grey Kitty mentioned, the type of divorce you're likely to encounter if you go down that path is called "high conflict" and not every attorney is as good as they say they are. I've talked to two over the past couple of years. The first was really expensive but really good. The second was cheaper but I left with an uneasy feeling about her ability to problem solve. There's a book - Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline - that covers a lot of this and is highly reccomended.

[prof]

Everyone needs to make their own decision here in their own time.
How did you feel about talking to the attorney? Did you feel relief? Comfort? DIScomfort? Did you feel like you were doing the right thing? The wrong thing?

Oh my -- a little of everything.  Some relief, but lots of anxiety about what's to come.

We talked about this before and there are many ways to help your wife maintain insurance coverage, all the way from helping her find private insurance to encouraging her to find an employer that is willing to be flexible but also offer benefits, through unions (you said she was a musician? My sister in law works for a musicians union and I know that benefits for members is a huge thing). You could also do any of those things in combination with COBRA in the mean time. Your state also might offer options that include legal separation that still allows her to remain on your insurance.

My point is, please try not to let a solvable problem stand in the way of something bigger that you know is right for you and your child.

Makes sense.  The lawyer also mentioned Obamacare (if it still exists afterwards... .) as a possibility.

As Grey Kitty mentioned, the type of divorce you're likely to encounter if you go down that path is called "high conflict" and not every attorney is as good as they say they are. I've talked to two over the past couple of years. The first was really expensive but really good. The second was cheaper but I left with an uneasy feeling about her ability to problem solve. There's a book - Splitting - Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline - that covers a lot of this and is highly reccomended.

Just bought it -- thanks!

Today was more of the same.  Push/pull/push/pull/suicide threat (more superficial cutting), etc.

She eventually got distracted by some drama related to our kitten fosters and laid off me for a bit.

Both her sister and mother-in-law called me today -- she's cut off communication and they're worried about her mental state right now.

[prof]

One of our adult cats didn't come inside before a big storm last night and never made it back before we went to bed.  So uBPDw was worried sick.  She woke up at like 3:30, woke me up, and we started looking.  A few hours later, I found him stuck way up in a tree.  We eventually managed to coax him down.

Good news: she had something other than me to focus her emotions on.  Bad news: she's using her attachment to our cats to try and manipulate me into staying.  ("They're all I have when you ignore me.  If you leave me, then I won't have a home and can't keep my pets."

I really don't want to spend yet another long day "working things out" with her.  I desperately need to write a midterm for my online class.  So I've gone back to reassuring her that I won't leave her.  (Me leaving has always been her biggest fear and a frequently recurring dream.)  But now, I'm pretty sure I'm lying.

[DaddyBear77]

But now, I'm pretty sure I'm lying.

 Take a deep breath. Then take another. It's OK. You're in a really really tough spot. Your child and your wife are both counting on you to get your job done. You did what you had to do, given the tools you have right now, and you've given yourself the space to think. And breathe.

When you've got the space, I have some thoughts for you.

I think it's really great that you're recognizing and staying cognizant of the differences between your inner dialog (e.g., "I don't feel that I can stay like this" and your outer expressions (e.g., "I'll stay no matter what"

If you read back into some of my story here, you'll see that I'm in a very similar spot. For me, I can see this dissonance happened from the very beginning, but over the past 5 years or so, the consequences have really ramped up.

Here's how I think it has played out for me:
I believe my uBPDw to be high functioning, but with significant impairment in a few key areas: emotional regulation (over the top anger and rage), anxiety, and depression. These particular impairments are really difficult for me personally - I think I probably experienced issues early on in my family of origin, but I haven't quite got that nailed down yet. I frequently find myself panicking when she exhibits these impairments.

Instead of staying calm and rational, which I think I am most of the time, I end up acting out of my OWN fear and anxiety, and I go full out manic, emergency, panic mode in an effort to squash her feelings.

I've labeled anger, rage, anxiety, and depression as "the worst bad things" and have therefore given myself permission to do "less bad things" to try and control HER feelings.

This is a problem.

What I've found is that after years and years of doing "less bad things," they've really added up, and now I've painted myself into a really bad corner. Her anxiety that I've tried to "control" out of existence has been amplified. More importantly, the sum total of the "less bad things" turned out to add up to REALLY bad, and now I'm faced with much bigger problems like bankruptcy and isolation from friends and family. The cycle of her anxiety -> my panic -> my "less bad" compromise to try and control her, it's a slippery slope that never ends. There will always be more of her anxiety. There will always be something else I try and control.

I'm only now starting to see how this all needs to be flipped around. First of all, rage, anxiety, and depression are neither "good" nor "bad" - they are part of the human experience. We cannot "control" these things in another person without taking away their humanity - their basic human right to be who they are, and not who we want them to be.

We must also be aware of the characteristics of BPD (and related PDs) - as a part of the pwBPD's emotional turmoil, they will likely use dysfunctional coping mechanisms to try and reduce or eliminate this horrible painful emotional state. This can include blaming us, harming themselves, using substances, projection, denial, the list goes on.

And finally, putting this all together, I believe we must be as true to our OWN emotions as possible at any given moment, and NOT get swept up in our pwBPD's turmoil. We've been given the power to manage our emotions with much greater ease than our pwBPD. We cannot use this power on other people, but we can, and must, use it for ourselves.


What does all this add up to? Well, I'd say that your lies are probably a perfectly understandable reaction to a very difficult situation. I'd also say that you would do yourself a lot of good to really question any future lies, and try and come up with some alternative ways to give yourself space. This is extremely difficult - I have NOT figured this out yet - but I know it to be the right thing for ME to do.

What do YOU think?

[MrRight]

One of our adult cats didn't come inside before a big storm last night and never made it back before we went to bed.  So uBPDw was worried sick.  She woke up at like 3:30, woke me up, and we started looking.  A few hours later, I found him stuck way up in a tree.  We eventually managed to coax him down.

Good news: she had something other than me to focus her emotions on.  Bad news: she's using her attachment to our cats to try and manipulate me into staying.  ("They're all I have when you ignore me.  If you leave me, then I won't have a home and can't keep my pets."

I really don't want to spend yet another long day "working things out" with her.  I desperately need to write a midterm for my online class.  So I've gone back to reassuring her that I won't leave her.  (Me leaving has always been her biggest fear and a frequently recurring dream.)  But now, I'm pretty sure I'm lying.

I also had an animal rescue story with my pwBPD today - might as well make someone smile with it as you brought up this early morning cat story.
We keep chickens (her idea not mine) - one got loose and we both chased it (futile - those hens are fast) "if we lose this hen I'm gonna blame you - throw your coat over it" I tried this but it dodged and ran into a thicket of brambles, thorns etc. "You ass! Get in there and find it!" One hour later covered in nettle stings, thorn cuts etc we gave up. "I'll never forgive you!" Ten minutes later the chicken emerges and flies directly back into the hen house.
Now who else but a pwBPD would go to this trouble to save a hen.

[Grey Kitty]

I have a very strong value of being truthful and honest. Often to a point which is not helpful. Some things are completely true, but are better of going unsaid. That has been a slow thing for me to learn, to say the least.

So ... .when it comes to "lying" and saying you won't leave, I really think that is probably the best thing to do for now.

Telling her that you are thinking of leaving or probably leaving  when you haven't decided to go yet is just going to destroy the remaining trust she has in you, without doing anything good.

And honestly, you really don't know if you will be able to leave or not. You fear you will have to leave. You also fear you won't be able to leave. You haven't decided to go yet.

When you decide to go, that is probably the time to tell her you are leaving. And at that time, you can figure out what the kindest/cleanest/safest way to do so is.

For now, keep those doubts to yourself, or share them only in safe places--here, or with a therapist, or perhaps possibly a trusted friend.

[prof]

Yesterday, uBPDw successfully charmed me back in, for a while at least.

She started trying to suggest I buy her some jewelry to make up for meeting with a lawyer.  Our credit cards are close to maxed out, and I just had to ask for a $500 loan from my dad just to make sure we have enough money to eat for the next couple weeks until I get paid.  (Sad but kind of funny story:  When our cat was stuck in the tree a couple days ago, we initially called a tree service to climb up and get him down.  He'd come down on his own before they arrived.  They asked for a little gas money for their trouble -- I wrote a $20 check, postdated for a few days out, which they were well aware of.  Well, they went ahead and cashed it anyway, so with the $35 overdraft fee, I was a little over $50 in the negative.)

I managed to avoid caving to any jewelry based on our finances.

At one point, she got angry and started packing up all S4's clothes and toys, claiming they were leaving to go live with a friend of hers (the maid of honor at our wedding -- she lives a couple days drive away).  She had the audacity to ask me to help them pack, and I had the spinelessness to actually do it.

Eventually, her leaving with S4 and moving somewhere turned into her leaving by herself and committing suicide.  She began going around the house, making a show of saying goodbye to all of our pets.  She started writing a last will and testament and asked me to find an envelope so she could mail her most valuable jewelry to her sister.

She also texted "goodbye" to her sister prompting her sister (who lives on the other side of the country) to have the sheriff come by our house twice for wellness checks.

She went on and on about how much she's sacrificed for me (which she has), and how much she has changed (which she hasn't very much) and how little I have sacrificed or changed for her.  How almost every problem in our marriage is my fault.  (In particular, I don't spend time with her, do romantic things for her, or clean.  She has a valid argument here, but I feel that my energy is so spent on dealing with her basic needs, dealing with her drama, being essentially the only parent to S4, taking care of our pets/fosters, and my job that I have nothing left.)

She convinced me to try marriage counseling again.  We have an appointment set up for next Wednesday.  However, she's convinced that the counseling will consist of them telling me to spend time with her and be more romantic.  And that I won't listen.

I eventually put S4 to bed and nodded off while giving him his nebulizer treatment.  I woke up shortly later to find uBPDw taking a bath and wanting to talk to me about her depression.  "What do I do?  What do I do?"

I was extremely exhausted and found myself nodding off more while she talked.  Of course, she didn't take kindly to this.  (This is a frequent problem -- she keeps me up late wanting someone to be with her, but my son wakes up at a normal time.  I take care of him while she continues to sleep.  This leaves me exhausted for the next night of staying up late with her.  On better nights, she doesn't mind if I try and sleep while she stays up, but often she wakes me up numerous time throughout the night to get her something to drink, etc.)

I drank some coffee and stayed up with her.  She become more and more hopeless.  We googled inpatient mental health facilities.  (The reviews were all too negative for her to agree to actually going to one -- plus they likely won't let her play her flute.)

Eventually, I called the national suicide prevention hotline.  She initially didn't want to speak to them, but after a while of me speaking, she took my phone and talked for quite a while.

Talking to them helped while she was on the phone, but her anxiety really started setting in again after the phone call ended.  She took some more clonopin and benadryl, we watched some tv, and finally she was ready to try and sleep around 5 am.

My son woke me up about 3.5 hours later.  

[DaddyBear77]

prof, this all sounds SO familiar to me. I'm really sorry you're going through this. You have got to be so exhausted right now. I can remember nodding off during conversations at 3 or 4 in the morning, wishing my pwBPD would just take the damn Xanax and let us all get some sleep. It's a horrible, horrible place to be. I really feel for you.

I think I've been clear that I'm only at the very beginning stages of climbing out of this mess, so I am by no means an expert or an experienced pro at any of this. But I believe fully what the pros have told me.

First and foremost you MUST find a way to give yourself some care. It's been described to me many times in terms of the airplane safety video where they tell you to affix your oxygen mask before helping others. I'd put it another way - think of yourself as bleeding profusely. You may not feel the wounds in the moment, but every minute you stay up exhausted, every ounce of emotional support you provide, that's another ounce of "blood" pouring out of you. Without a plan to stop the bleeding and get a transfusion and/or let your body replenish, you will run out and if not die, collapse and be hospitalized yourself. If you don't believe me, there are plenty of members here who have experienced exactly that.

Second of all (and yes, this is second), you will need to provide reasonable and appropriate support for your S4. With all the activities surrounding sheriffs and police coming by, you may be at a high risk of having child protective services step in and making these decisions for you. Do NOT apologize for seeing a lawyer. At least, not to yourself. You did the right thing, and you will likely need to ask even more questions as time goes on.

I think you did the exact right thing in NOT giving in to a demand for jewels, especially given your financial state. Been there. Still there. Buying her more stuff does not fix it. Believe me.

And finally, as a third priority, you will need to continue to work together with your pwBPD and any other healthcare or support providers in her life to help her find the best direction to go next. Notice how I deliberately said "work together" - you can NOT do this work for her. However, there may come a time when a professional or a hospital must get involved. Don't hesitate to use every professional and medical agency available. It sounds like you're doing this. It's not easy.

GET HELP for YOURSELF in figuring out how to be a caregiver and not let yourself stay in the caretaker role. There's a big difference. I'm still learning that.

I'm not sure if any of this is helpful - it's just stuff I've reflected on during my own journey. I hope it's helpful to you, and know that it's really really hard and I really feel for you.

[prof]

prof, this all sounds SO familiar to me. I'm really sorry you're going through this. You have got to be so exhausted right now. I can remember nodding off during conversations at 3 or 4 in the morning, wishing my pwBPD would just take the damn Xanax and let us all get some sleep. It's a horrible, horrible place to be. I really feel for you.

Thanks!

I think I've been clear that I'm only at the very beginning stages of climbing out of this mess, so I am by no means an expert or an experienced pro at any of this. But I believe fully what the pros have told me.

First and foremost you MUST find a way to give yourself some care. It's been described to me many times in terms of the airplane safety video where they tell you to affix your oxygen mask before helping others. I'd put it another way - think of yourself as bleeding profusely. You may not feel the wounds in the moment, but every minute you stay up exhausted, every ounce of emotional support you provide, that's another ounce of "blood" pouring out of you. Without a plan to stop the bleeding and get a transfusion and/or let your body replenish, you will run out and if not die, collapse and be hospitalized yourself. If you don't believe me, there are plenty of members here who have experienced exactly that.

One thing that I'm absolutely certain I must do for myself is go to an event planned for the end of the month.  I spent a lot of time at a particular family summer camp as a kid and as a 20-something staff member.  I haven't been in 11 years.  Two summers ago, the dining hall at the camp burned down.  They finally finished construction on the new dining hall and are having a big grand opening/reunion weekend.  I want nothing more than to take S4 for his first camping trip at what is probably my favorite place on the planet.  My dad will be there too.  (He actually paid our registration fees.)  I really don't want uBPDw to go, although she's currently registered.

That's still a couple weeks away, though.

Second of all (and yes, this is second), you will need to provide reasonable and appropriate support for your S4. With all the activities surrounding sheriffs and police coming by, you may be at a high risk of having child protective services step in and making these decisions for you. Do NOT apologize for seeing a lawyer. At least, not to yourself. You did the right thing, and you will likely need to ask even more questions as time goes on.

I'm definitely doing everything I can to spend time with S4 when I can.  uBPDw's asleep right now, and he's cuddling next to me as I type this.

After lunch, I think I'll take him outside to play while I finish that d$#! swingset .

I think you did the exact right thing in NOT giving in to a demand for jewels, especially given your financial state. Been there. Still there. Buying her more stuff does not fix it. Believe me.

Lol yeah.

Our engagement actually grew out of a rage-filled fight over jewelry.  We had been living together for a few months, and had just flown back from my hometown where I was best man in a buddy's wedding.  I said something indicating I might be interested in being in the r/s for the long haul.  She got really angry that I would say such a thing without producing a ring.  (I'd been thinking about starting to save up for one -- I'm the kind of guy who would vastly prefer to save up and later pay cash for something than to go into debt.  Alas, that financial lifestyle has long since been thrown out the window.)  Needless to say, we found ourself at the local Zales a few hours later applying for a credit card and picking out a ring.  :\

My mom wore a wedding band without any gems and didn't even have her ears pierced, so this whole "buy me jewels!" thing was very strange to me early on.

And finally, as a third priority, you will need to continue to work together with your pwBPD and any other healthcare or support providers in her life to help her find the best direction to go next. Notice how I deliberately said "work together" - you can NOT do this work for her. However, there may come a time when a professional or a hospital must get involved. Don't hesitate to use every professional and medical agency available. It sounds like you're doing this. It's not easy.

I got off the phone with her sister a little while ago.  She's very concerned and is willing to sign something to get her committed.  (In our state, there's some paperwork that needs to be done involving at least two signatures to get someone committed against their will.)  I may just go down this route if the suicidal thoughts don't improve soon.

GET HELP for YOURSELF in figuring out how to be a caregiver and not let yourself stay in the caretaker role. There's a big difference. I'm still learning that.

I'm not sure if any of this is helpful - it's just stuff I've reflected on during my own journey. I hope it's helpful to you, and know that it's really really hard and I really feel for you.

It's extremely helpful -- thank you!

[DaddyBear77]

I spent a lot of time at a particular family summer camp as a kid and as a 20-something staff member. 

All I can think of is Kellerman's from Dirty Dancing - that actually sounds really cool! S4 will love it!

I'm definitely doing everything I can to spend time with S4 when I can.

Spending time is great. That kid is really counting on you. By this age I'll bet you can really feel it.

She got really angry that I would say such a thing without producing a ring
... .
My mom wore a wedding band without any gems and didn't even have her ears pierced, so this whole "buy me jewels!" thing was very strange to me early on.

My suggestion here is to do something I haven't quite mastered yet: Try and look past the rage and hype about jewelry this and jewelry that, and see what's really underneath it. She may feel like her value as a person is the sum of all the reflections of all the people and things around her. THAT'S the real issue. It's got nothing to do with whether or not you got her the most expensive ring or have taken out enough loans.

I got off the phone with her sister a little while ago.  She's very concerned and is willing to sign something to get her committed.

Dude, you've got this covered. Planning for every eventuality is exactly what needs to be done here.

You're doing great - don't lose this momentum. You can do this.

[prof]

My suggestion here is to do something I haven't quite mastered yet: Try and look past the rage and hype about jewelry this and jewelry that, and see what's really underneath it. She may feel like her value as a person is the sum of all the reflections of all the people and things around her. THAT'S the real issue. It's got nothing to do with whether or not you got her the most expensive ring or have taken out enough loans.

Relevant story:  Earlier this week (I think the same day as my lawyer appointment), uBPDw was raging about how I had taken everything from her.  "What else can I give you?" she screamed.  We were in her bedroom, and she reached into her jewelry box and started grabbing a bunch of rings and earrings and throwing them at me.  "Why don't you take these too?"

Of course, a few minutes later we (well, mostly me) were frantically crawling around the floor trying to pick everything up.

It seems like she definitely sees her jewelry as some sort of physical symbol of her own value.  There's a particular pair of diamond earrings she got from her (now deceased) mother which she especially cherishes.

There's also a ruby ring that she was supposed to get from her mother when she passed away, but went missing.  (I recall frantically searching through every nook and cranny of her mother's house when we were visiting a few months before she passed.)  uBPDw is convinced it was stolen by her sister to give to her niece.  This ring often comes up when she's painted her sister black and is complaining about her to me.


There's one thing I forgot to mention from my conversation with her sister on the phone this morning.  When threatening divorce, uBPDw often threatens she will take S4 back to where she grew up and not allow me to see him.  According to her sister, uBPDw sometimes has shared this threat with their dad.

Her sister expressed concern that "preventing me from seeing S4" could mean something much more sinister than just moving out of state, but actually harming S4.

This is something I'd never considered.  She's been violent to me a couple times (she's hit me twice and once threated to stab me, although the closest knife was downstairs).  But I could never imagine her harming S4.

From my understanding of BPD behavior, a lot of it is all show to manipulate others and not so much action.  Should I be concerned?

[MrRight]

Mine used the possibility of extreme harm to S to manipulate me - when I was outside refusing to come in at one point she claimed he was dead. Of course this was a lie.

Threats of self harm or harm to someone you love a lot - or just taking away your child - cant advise you there but I am sure someone will. Probably just extreme control methods. But worrying.

Mine is also in conflict with her sister.

[Hopeful_Me]

Prof-

I've read this entire thread and though I am new to these boards, I am not new to dysfunctional, codependent behavior. I am going to tell it like I see it as I am very direct.

When are YOU going to get help?

The focus is so much on her and her insanity, yet... .you are so intensely enmeshed: enabling her addiction to the extent of your financial detriment, over-compensating your role as father so she can blow off her responsibilities as a co-parent, people-pleasing to avoid the discomfort of your current reality and on and on.

You give in to her, do for her, sacrifice yourself, your sleep, your money, your sanity - YOU are a huge part of creating this dysfunction. You have taught her she is an invalid and cannot be responsible for her own life so why should she even try?

You are dishonest - saying you won't divorce her when you know you are, saying you're ok with the smoking, the laziness etc when you are not. Do you get what I'm saying?

Your over-heightened sense of responsibility for her is causing her to have NO motivation to do anything for herself - even if she wanted to.

I use Al-Anon to deal with, and get support for, my codependency. I hope you can accept what I said as a sort of cold-water wake up. You are choosing this life of insanity because it's the easier, softer way. But in reality, it's not. It's a was of avoiding the harshness of change.

I hope you choose change because you son IS witnessing this and will mirror in his own life one day.

Peace.

[prof]

Hopeful_Me,

Thank you for your honesty!  Deep down, I know this is all true.  I desperately, desperately want change.  But it's terrifying.

What do I do?  Do I pull off the bandaid and file for divorce?  Do I stay in the relationship for a while, committed to working on my codependency?  I'm so lost.

[MrRight]

Hopeful_Me,

Thank you for your honesty!  Deep down, I know this is all true.  I desperately, desperately want change.  But it's terrifying.

What do I do?  Do I pull off the bandaid and file for divorce?  Do I stay in the relationship for a while, committed to working on my codependency?  I'm so lost.

File for divorce?

You mean tell your wife you want a divorce - go to a lawyer etc.
Leave with your child? You would have to do that I would think.

[DaddyBear77]

When my uBPDw threatened to take D3 and run for the hills, I took it seriously but also understood the logistical complications involved in truly executing that threat. I never felt that physical harm was a threat to D3 but to myself, certainly.

What is your gut reaction when you think about the possibility of harm to S4? No one on these boards could possibly know more than you do about how real that possibility is. We all know it has happened that a parent causes harm to themselves and their child simultaneously. It's a horrible tragedy when it happens. It's extremely rare. Then again, we are on a forum focused on serious mental disorders.

Regardless of the threat level, it's clear that your pwBPD isn't fully up to the challenge of a 4 year old. The fact that you provide coverage for your wife so often is one indicator. The fact that your wife is struggling with frequent suicidal ideation and threats is another. That's not the mark of a competent parent.

One thing to consider is that much of this will NEED to go through the legal system. Ask many "what if" questions to your attorney. Know your rights. If she leaves with S4 and for any reason you feel that either your S4 and/or your wife is in danger, call 911 immediately. Ask your lawyer to be sure about this.

Stay rational. Stay grounded as much as possible. There's merit to working on yourself while you try and determine your next move, but try and stay focused on the work required to make that next move. Don't fall back into complacency and acceptance of bad behavior by either your wife or yourself.

I'm going to go do the same now

[Hopeful_Me]

I can share what I did when I couldn't control the insanity - including my own.

I asked for help. I surrendered.

I called AA because I wanted to find out how to *fix* him. They told me I needed fixing and gave me the number to Al-Anon. Now, I don't want to come across as if I am recruiting for Al-Anon here - as I do post that in a lot of my posts, however, it does work for people like us - whether or not your loved one has obvious addiction issues or not (your wife seems to). It is a support fellowship for friends and families who are affected by the insanity of dysfunctional people. From my personal experience and my research on BPD, many BPD's turn to chemicals to deal with their intense dysfunction. My ex-bf  - the one with BPD traits - is an alcoholic/addict who has been to rehab 5 times. He just came out of one 5 months ago. It's a co-occurring illness directly related to the mental health issues he has.

I have learned to have boundaries - firm boundaries - I have learned how I contributed to the dysfunction, I have learned how to have compassion for these people, how to understand it's not their "fault" but it IS their responsibility. And, I have learned how to relinquish my control and gently hand over their life so they can be responsible.

Just two hours ago, my former sister in law called me from South America - where she lives - to tell me my ex husband - an alcoholic and severely dysfunctional 55 year old man - had been arrested AGAIN for domestic violence upon his current wife. He has NO money, no job, no drivers license, and literally not one friend who he can turn to in his town. The family is freaking out thinking he will get hurt in jail. I told them he is there because he earned that cot by getting drunk and becoming violent to his wife. So, he must feel - deeply feel - the consequences of his actions EVEN IF it makes the family uncomfortable. He has 3 meals a day there and a bed. He won't die. This is MY boundary. I won't bail him out, but I will support him appropriately. I wrote him a letter, to the jail, said he could call me and I will pay for the call. I helped the sister put some $$ on his commissary account so he can buy hygiene products and better tasting food. That's it.

So, before you make a decision under intense confusion and fear - get some help to bring you out of the FOG and into the light. Seek intensive therapy - maybe go more than weekly, seek a support group al-anon or if a BPD family group exists, go there. This is serious stuff. You want to make a clear headed - not a knew jerk- decision. Especially knowing that BPD's WILL turn on the charm once they fear losing you. You can become intoxicated by that as well, and make you lost your stable foundation.

If you want to PM me for support, feel free. There is also another thread that may be helpful buy MovingOn - another man trying to make his way out of a long term marriage. He documents his journey well. I will try to find it and post back here.

You are not alone.

Here is the link:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=301473.msg12874134#msg12874134

[prof]

I think right now I'm in a place where I want to stay in this for now, but I definitely need to work on me and my boundaries.  I just bought Walking on Eggshells and am working through that.  After that, I'll go back to reading Codependent No More.  (I had borrowed the ebook through my local library, but couldn't renew it because several other people had put a hold on it -- obviously I'm not alone!)

My next therapy session is a few weeks ago.  I just sent his office a note hoping to schedule some more after that so I can try and avoid more big gaps between sessions.

Last night, I was hopeful that I could get a good night's sleep.  uBPDw was asleep when I finished putting S4 to bed, and I thankfully laid down for some sleep.

Maybe an hour or so later, she woke up with anxiety and asked me to join her in the bathroom so she could smoke.  I crankily agreed, and soon angered her with some of my actions (I again refused to contact the music director I mentioned in an earlier post.  A few minutes later, I was moving some laundry over from the washer to the dryer and told her I wanted to finish this before coming back to the bedroom to talk to her.)   This drove her to more suicidal threats, and she ended up holding ~50 oxycontins in her hand for about 20 minutes.

She eventually calmed down and put them away, and we got a few hours sleep before S4 woke up.

Today seems better (so far).  Right now, she's getting ready to actually get out of the house and so some things together as a family this afternoon.

[MrRight]

I think right now I'm in a place where I want to stay in this for now, but I definitely need to work on me and my boundaries.  I just bought Walking on Eggshells and am working through that.  After that, I'll go back to reading Codependent No More.  (I had borrowed the ebook through my local library, but couldn't renew it because several other people had put a hold on it -- obviously I'm not alone!)

My next therapy session is a few weeks ago.  I just sent his office a note hoping to schedule some more after that so I can try and avoid more big gaps between sessions.

Last night, I was hopeful that I could get a good night's sleep.  uBPDw was asleep when I finished putting S4 to bed, and I thankfully laid down for some sleep.

Maybe an hour or so later, she woke up with anxiety and asked me to join her in the bathroom so she could smoke.  I crankily agreed, and soon angered her with some of my actions (I again refused to contact the music director I mentioned in an earlier post.  A few minutes later, I was moving some laundry over from the washer to the dryer and told her I wanted to finish this before coming back to the bedroom to talk to her.)   This drove her to more suicidal threats, and she ended up holding ~50 oxycontins in her hand for about 20 minutes.

She eventually calmed down and put them away, and we got a few hours sleep before S4 woke up.

Today seems better (so far).  Right now, she's getting ready to actually get out of the house and so some things together as a family this afternoon.

It would be futile for you to help her career along with a call to the music director - a sane person would understand that.

[MrRight]

I think right now I'm in a place where I want to stay in this for now, but I definitely need to work on me and my boundaries.  I just bought Walking on Eggshells and am working through that.  After that, I'll go back to reading Codependent No More.  (I had borrowed the ebook through my local library, but couldn't renew it because several other people had put a hold on it -- obviously I'm not alone!)

My next therapy session is a few weeks ago.  I just sent his office a note hoping to schedule some more after that so I can try and avoid more big gaps between sessions.

Last night, I was hopeful that I could get a good night's sleep.  uBPDw was asleep when I finished putting S4 to bed, and I thankfully laid down for some sleep.

Maybe an hour or so later, she woke up with anxiety and asked me to join her in the bathroom so she could smoke.  I crankily agreed, and soon angered her with some of my actions (I again refused to contact the music director I mentioned in an earlier post.  A few minutes later, I was moving some laundry over from the washer to the dryer and told her I wanted to finish this before coming back to the bedroom to talk to her.)   This drove her to more suicidal threats, and she ended up holding ~50 oxycontins in her hand for about 20 minutes.

She eventually calmed down and put them away, and we got a few hours sleep before S4 woke up.

Today seems better (so far).  Right now, she's getting ready to actually get out of the house and so some things together as a family this afternoon.

One thing I have picked up here is the idea of invalidation. So her wanting you to have a serious chat being interrupted by you attending to the washing - to the BPD mind that is invalidating - I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong. This would explain her violent reaction to what she sees as your dismissal of her. There has to be another response to her demands that you phone the musical director - a way of saying no that doesn't invalidate her. Perhaps tell her she will lose respect in the pro world if she needs her husband to get are moved up the orchestra.

[BeagleGirl]

This drove her to more suicidal threats, and she ended up holding ~50 oxycontins in her hand for about 20 minutes.

I think this is an excellent opportunity to set and enforce some boundaries. 

Threats of suicide, real or as a manipulative tool, require a response.  Since you don't have the training necessary to distinguish between real and manipulative threats, ALL threats must be treated as real.  Worst case scenario, you are calling a bluff that she never intended to act on and SHE causes a whole lot of drama and repercussions over nothing.  You may be the one calling the ambulance and having her committed for a 72 hour hold, but SHE is the one who is causing it.  That's something you need to be really solid on in your mind (though you will probably never convince her of it).

So here are what are reasonable responses to what your wife did.  I see the act of holding a lethal dose of pills as an escalation that warrants what may seem like extreme action on your part.  I'd advise removing any pills from her access to prevent a repeat performance, but if she does anything similar, here is the response that I would like to see you take. 

Always carry your phone with you so that you don't have to leave the room to get it.  Call emergency services.  Explain that your wife is holding a lethal dose of pain killers and threatening to take them.  Ask that an emergency vehicle be sent to take her to the hospital.  Explain that you have a young child in the house and would like to stay on the line until emergency services arrives.  When emergency services arrives, she MUST go with them, even if she has not taken the pills and has put them away.  Ask that she be committed on a 72 hour hold and explain the suicidal threats to the doctor in charge.

Spend the 72 hours preparing for her return.

All potentially lethal medications/cleaners, etc need to be under lock and key.  You are the only one who has access to them.  You dole medications out to her upon request as prescribed.

Your child should not be left unsupervised with her until she is no longer making suicide threats for x period of time.  Arrange for child care or trusted friends/relatives to be with her and your child any time you are not. 

Keep a journal of EVERY threat of suicide, even the veiled ones.  Record the date, time, and wording.  I think it would be advisable to get her into counseling ASAP.  While a counselor can't share information with you (unless your wife agrees) you can share information with the counselor.  I would provide an update on any suicide threats that have occurred via email to the counselor prior to sessions so that they can address them with your wife.

Develop your suicide threat response.  I've had to do this for my BPDh but have not yet had to use it, since he has only expressed his suicidal thoughts to our counselor (who has his permission to share anything from their sessions with me).  My response follows the SET structure:

I don't want you to die.  I value your life and know it would be a huge loss to myself, our sons, and your friends and family if you were to die.  I know that you must be in incredible pain if you are considering death as an option.  I also know that if you were to die the boys and I would grieve for a time, but we would survive.  We would eventually understand that suicide was your choice and not our fault.  I would probably remarry.  The boys will most likely find wives and have children.  You would always be a part of our memories, but you would not be there to meet your daughters-in-law.  You would not be there to watch your sons become fathers.  You would never get to experience holding your grandchildren.  They would not have a special name just for you.  There is so much for you to live for, that I want you to get the help you need to no longer consider suicide as an option. 

Do you think that the recommendation above is something you could/should follow?  If not, do you have a different plan for how to handle the next suicide threat?

[Hopeful_Me]

**warning - tough love ahead**


Reading self help books does nothing to create inner change. It may answer questions, may even find relief, but will not cause you to change your behavior.

Would it be OK if all she did to get help was read a few books?

Waiting weeks for a therapy session is a waste. Either you want to MAKE change happen, or you want to remain in the disease.

The 50 pills? They are her strings to the marionette that is you.

You allow her to run, and ruin, your life. She is your jailer. And you are hers. If YOU don't take effective action, what hope does she have? Or your son?

[MrRight]

I think this is an excellent opportunity to set and enforce some boundaries. 

Threats of suicide, real or as a manipulative tool, require a response.  Since you don't have the training necessary to distinguish between real and manipulative threats, ALL threats must be treated as real.  Worst case scenario, you are calling a bluff that she never intended to act on and SHE causes a whole lot of drama and repercussions over nothing.  You may be the one calling the ambulance and having her committed for a 72 hour hold, but SHE is the one who is causing it.  That's something you need to be really solid on in your mind (though you will probably never convince her of it).

So here are what are reasonable responses to what your wife did.  I see the act of holding a lethal dose of pills as an escalation that warrants what may seem like extreme action on your part.  I'd advise removing any pills from her access to prevent a repeat performance, but if she does anything similar, here is the response that I would like to see you take. 

Always carry your phone with you so that you don't have to leave the room to get it.  Call emergency services.  Explain that your wife is holding a lethal dose of pain killers and threatening to take them.  Ask that an emergency vehicle be sent to take her to the hospital.  Explain that you have a young child in the house and would like to stay on the line until emergency services arrives.  When emergency services arrives, she MUST go with them, even if she has not taken the pills and has put them away.  Ask that she be committed on a 72 hour hold and explain the suicidal threats to the doctor in charge.

Spend the 72 hours preparing for her return.

All potentially lethal medications/cleaners, etc need to be under lock and key.  You are the only one who has access to them.  You dole medications out to her upon request as prescribed.

Your child should not be left unsupervised with her until she is no longer making suicide threats for x period of time.  Arrange for child care or trusted friends/relatives to be with her and your child any time you are not. 

Keep a journal of EVERY threat of suicide, even the veiled ones.  Record the date, time, and wording.  I think it would be advisable to get her into counseling ASAP.  While a counselor can't share information with you (unless your wife agrees) you can share information with the counselor.  I would provide an update on any suicide threats that have occurred via email to the counselor prior to sessions so that they can address them with your wife.

Develop your suicide threat response.  I've had to do this for my BPDh but have not yet had to use it, since he has only expressed his suicidal thoughts to our counselor (who has his permission to share anything from their sessions with me).  My response follows the SET structure:

I don't want you to die.  I value your life and know it would be a huge loss to myself, our sons, and your friends and family if you were to die.  I know that you must be in incredible pain if you are considering death as an option.  I also know that if you were to die the boys and I would grieve for a time, but we would survive.  We would eventually understand that suicide was your choice and not our fault.  I would probably remarry.  The boys will most likely find wives and have children.  You would always be a part of our memories, but you would not be there to meet your daughters-in-law.  You would not be there to watch your sons become fathers.  You would never get to experience holding your grandchildren.  They would not have a special name just for you.  There is so much for you to live for, that I want you to get the help you need to no longer consider suicide as an option. 

Do you think that the recommendation above is something you could/should follow?  If not, do you have a different plan for how to handle the next suicide threat?

Not sure about USA - but here in the Uk - an ambulance wont come out to a threat of suicide - only actual self harm that is deemed to be life threatening. If you call with a suicide threat - you will be given advice and referred to a mental health practitioner.

[DaddyBear77]

prof and others-

This would be a great time to review the lesson and protocols on Suicidal Ideation in Others we offer here:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79032.0

One of the key steps here is to remove weapons, stockpiles of pills, etc.

My pwBPD is very aware of her history of ideation. It is for that very reason that we do not keep guns, knives, or any quantity of obviously lethal pills or poisons in the house. It helps that she is aware of this and cooperative, but honestly even if she wasn't, I'd still insist on that basic precaution.

Finally, I'm sure it varies by jurisdiction in the US, but the night my wife locked herself in her car in the driveway with a knife held to her wrist, the local police department sent two officers to the address and took her to the hospital for evaluation. She hated me, raged at the officers, and said horrible things. But it saved her life.

Don't mess around with ideation and threats.

Please read this:
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=79032.0

[heartandwhole]

Hi prof,

I'm really sorry that you are going through this. It's a very difficult situation to be in, and I understand the conflict of wanting change and at the same time being terrified of it. I think that was a very honest statement that you made. You are not alone.  

I would like to suggest taking pen to paper and making a plan. Sketch an outline of your goals, pros and cons, steps you will take today toward emotional health. They can be tiny steps, but do them. If you are so conflicted that you can't decide which steps to write down, make a separate list for staying and going.

I encourage you to review the purpose of this board. If you are leaning toward staying in the relationship, and expect to have a chance of things getting better, then you'll need to learn the tools on the Improving board, and practice (practice, practice) them. If you are leaning toward leaving, take a look at the Family Law, Divorce, and Custody board and read some posts. They will enlighten you as to what might be ahead and you'll learn ways to increase your chances of a best-case-scenario outcome.

It sounds like boundaries are something that you would benefit from working on. I can very much relate.    Have you seen the article below? It helps to get really clear about what boundaries are and aren't. They spring from our values, so we need to know what those are (not always cut and dry, even to ourselves!):

Setting Boundaries and Setting Limits

Communicating with empathy and support is very important to most people with BPD, as they often have high needs for both. Expressing a boundary using S.E.T., for example, will help make it seem less like a rejection. Don't worry if it feels weird or mechanical at first, and your wife may react badly, too. Keep practicing, and you will find that it becomes a way that you can genuinely express your support, empathy, and truth to her (and to all your loved ones in your life):

Comminciate - S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth)

Although your son is very young, he is being affected by the constant fighting and stress in your home. Divorce is also a big stressor for children. It's a terribly difficult situation to be in, but I think spending some time evaluating the best route going forward — perhaps with a level-headed and trusted friend, lawyer, therapist— is extremely important right now. More important than the daily dramas that only feed the inertia.

Here is a quote from the "Who Should Post On This Board" pinned post above:

What we do know, is that the longer you stay undecided, the longer you will be in emotional pain. If you are going to stay, then you need to commit to working on what you can control. If you don't feel you have the strength or desire to keep working on things, then you will find peace in moving on... .Either way - That fence post can't feel good where it's at... .


Share your steps toward change with us. We're here to cheer you on.  

heartandwhole

[prof]

Not sure about USA - but here in the Uk - an ambulance wont come out to a threat of suicide - only actual self harm that is deemed to be life threatening. If you call with a suicide threat - you will be given advice and referred to a mental health practitioner.

Yeah, they just send police for threats in the US.  This has happened twice in the last couple weeks (I probably should have called them again this most recent time, but I was exhausted and not thinking as clearly).