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Author Topic: Intro & uBPD ex not letting go  (Read 456 times)
snazzyjazz

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« on: June 10, 2017, 09:01:59 PM »

Hey there,

This is my first post and I'm really looking forward to learning and sharing here. Briefly, my boyfriend and I have been together for a few years now and I am moving in with him this month. He has a 6yo daughter with a woman, uBPD, who was a mistress-girlfriend of 4 years before she got pregnant (he was in an open relationship. This has ended, we are exclusive and very happy Smiling (click to insert in post) that was a challenge but whole different story, not relevant ). When she got pregnant, he distanced himself, and they proceeded to have an awful battle over custody for the next 2 years. While she didn't get pregnant to trap him or coerce him into being with her, she refused to let him see his daughter / made it extremely difficult for him to see his daughter because he wasn't going to be with her, and repeatedly punished him with cancelling visits and imposing restrictions on his time with her any time she was upset. He got 50% custody when his daughter was 2, expensive chaotic court battle, but his ex didn't entirely respect their agreement, using FOG (guilt guilt guilt and verbal abuse) and denying him access whenever she was unhappy. I entered the picture sometime after that. The little one entered kindergarten this fall and it brought on a whole new court battle because ex thought she'd get full custody as a result of the life change. Things are better now; the case is settled at 50/50, with her actually respecting his right to 3.5 days per month, whereas before she always considered his time with their daughter as time infringing upon her own time... .they've got a good understanding of teamwork going now, finally. My boyfriend and I took a 10-week course at a local Mental Health centre to learn how to support & live with someone with BPD and it really helped us - it helped him realize he's not crazy or horrible or forever bound to her, that she's got a problem, and it helped us both understand where she's coming from medically so we can communicate more effectively. He also took a boundary-setting course as it's a major challenge for him, and it hasn't shown any concrete effects yet but it's a start. Things are currently as lovely as they can possibly be with a rageful, verbally abusive, and entitled co-parent.

Where I am struggling right now is on the love front. My boyfriend and I are solid, and have been de-facto living together for months; his daughter has known and loved me since she was 3, and I've been a part of her home life since then... .we're good. However, ex has an issue with interpreting cooperation and friendliness/civility from my boyfriend as signs of connection, signs he wants to be with her, reminders of her idealized vision of the perfect love they had, and so on. It doesn't matter how many times he has shown her and explicitly said he doesn't want to be with her, she always comes back to it, with long guilt-tripping messages promoting herself and their relationship and bashing him for their past and yet still wanting to be together. He has shown her in countless ways, in his actions & life over the past 6 years, they're never going to happen; he has explicitly told her at least once a year over the last few years that it's never going to happen and it's very over; and we recently sent her a collective e-mail delineating my role in their daughter's second home with her father, the level of commitment of our relationship, and the topics we would and wouldn't share information on with her. STILL, 6 years later, and after all that, she replies to that e-mail privately to my bf accusing our relationship of mistrust (because my bf shares almost everything about their relationship with me, as he's needed emotional & practical support dealing with it) and ending it with "she has every right to that mistrust, but that absolutely kills me because you had your right to want to be back with me."

I'm having trouble dealing with that particular trigger. We spoke to our BPD counselor about replying to that - my bf wanted to leave it alone, I wanted him to explicitly support every word of our e-mail (which came from me) and emphasize that there has not been any love connection between them for years, and that she must stop interpreting his friendliness/cordialness in their daily communication over their child as connection. The counselor said there's no point, because she has shown that regardless of how many times those messages have been communicated to her, she will hear and see what she wants to, so we might as well just not engage.

I'm wondering how others have dealt with this; I surely can't be alone! My bf has an issue being direct with people in general, preferring to avoid unpleasant encounters by not responding or being so vague as to be easily misinterpreted as agreement, and this is especially true with her. The e-mail I sent had our collective seal on it but it came from me, and when she questioned him about it the other day, she said she couldn't find anything inappropriate in the messages she'd sent me (this happened for the first time a month ago, recent development) while I'd told her she was being inappropriate. He responded saying there was nothing inappropriate in the message I sent, but he failed to say he supports every word and it comes from both of us. There's a big difference, and an even bigger difference to someone who is looking for any way to get around the boundaries we were trying to set in that message; someone who saw us as a united front for the first time in that message and wants to get back to her isolation and bullying of my boyfriend, which has traditionally gotten her what she wants: an emotional outlet and cooperation on her wishes through coercion.

Whew, this is long - thanks to anyone who's gotten this far. I guess I'd love to hear how others have dealt with:
- Expressions of love, implications of connection in spite of statements of commitment to a new relationship ("new" used loosely here)
- Issues with your partner having trouble being direct and possibly letting things slide
- General co-parenting things as a step-parent. Currently, she doesn't want to recognize me as a step-parent until we're "married" or "common-law", and we're OK with that (that's what the e-mail was about), but I act as a de-facto step-parent when their daughter is at our house, and hearing stories of my involvement sometimes sets her off - less so since that e-mail, but still.

Thanks a ton for reading <3
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Panda39
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« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2017, 07:32:42 AM »

Hi snazzyjazz,

Welcome to the BPD Family  

Excerpt
Whew, this is long - thanks to anyone who's gotten this far. I guess I'd love to hear how others have dealt with:
- Expressions of love, implications of connection in spite of statements of commitment to a new relationship ("new" used loosely here)... .

Unfortunately, you cannot control what the ex feels or says... .you can not control her.  You can only control you.  You've told her your truth.  IMO you need to let this go (and I know that might not feel right or be hard for you to do).  She is baiting you with this behavior and is getting what she wants from it.  She upsets you and gets both you and her BF to engage in the drama with her.  Negative attention is still attention.  If you create a boundary around this behavior by not responding (and no doubt she will double her efforts for awhile) she will eventually figure out that she's not getting what she wants anymore by using that tactic. Don't react and you don't give her power to create drama.


Excerpt
- Issues with your partner having trouble being direct and possibly letting things slide

I think this is very common for many of us.  Our partners can often walk right back into the FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) when dealing with their ex, in other words they can slide right back into the dysfunctional behaviors they had when they were together. Each playing the role they had in the relationship.  The ex will use FOG or emotional blackmail to try and get what she wants and your BF reacts to his buttons pushed just like he did when they were together.

When I first met my SO he was still very much involved in the drama with his uBPDxw (undiagnosed BPD ex-wife) and I often felt like where is this guy's back bone why doesn't he stand up to her?  But he had 17 years of abnormal that he normalized it took him some time and distance and boundaries to break out of the dysfunctional dance he did with his ex.  He didn't discover BPD until they were halfway through their divorce and we didn't discover this site and it's tools until a couple years after that.

Again in this situation you can't control your BF and what does.  You can suggest, ask, discuss alternatives etc. but ultimately he will take that information into account and make his own decision.  There were times I disagreed with my SO about how he handled things but in hind sight I realized he made the right choice... .Early on and when I arrived here I was very angry at the ex, how she treated my SO and how she treated her children... .my own emotions were sometimes clouding my judgment.  

I think the important thing is open conversations with your BF and trying to come to a consensus, but if that fails to agree to disagree and you act as you need to and he acts as he needs to.

Excerpt
- General co-parenting things as a step-parent. Currently, she doesn't want to recognize me as a step-parent until we're "married" or "common-law", and we're OK with that (that's what the e-mail was about), but I act as a de-facto step-parent when their daughter is at our house, and hearing stories of my involvement sometimes sets her off - less so since that e-mail, but still.

I don't think you need to argue with her about your role.  You, your BF and his D (and I would argue the ex knows as well) all know what your role is you've go nothing to prove. You don't need to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) I would just act through your BF don't put yourself in the middle of the two of them because then you've created a Drama Triangle and you don't want to get into that.

Information on FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt)
https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Information on JADE & Circular Arguments
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

Information on the Drama Triangle
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0

You remind me a lot of myself when I arrived here angry at the ex and sometimes with my SO, wanting to fix and control the situation.  Because of our outside perspective we can bring a lot of insight but I think it's really helpful to let go of trying to control.  Trying to control other people is futile and uses a lot of energy.  A goal might be radical acceptance of the ex's behaviors because she is gonna do what she's gonna do and trying to fight that is a waste of time and energy that you can put elsewhere.  Are somethings worth a fight there could be some but choose your battles... .is she challenging your role probably not something you need to fight but is she neglectful with her D then that would be worth a fight.

I'm really glad you've found us my SO and I both have found this site very helpful in terms of tools, developing strategies together in terms of his ex, and helped us have a common language about BPD.  

You might encourage your SO to join us too I think he would find it beneficial.

Take Care,
Panda39
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« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2017, 04:08:08 AM »

This is very common. Largely because these particular BPDexs can't ever let anything go. Every single time they are lonely or something triggers them in a certain way they go back to feeling their feelings of abandonment as if they are fresh and the breakup just happened yesterday.

In my situation, my DH's BPDex ended things. She demanded a divorce. They had two kids together. The kids were 3 and 4 at the time of the divorce and are now teenagers who live with us full time after a huge court battle three years ago. After being discarded by her, DH was sort of left on the back burner while she had multiple short term relationships and then eventually had a child with a boyfriend. During this time she was controlling but let DH see the kids. DH had his access to the kids cut off when she found out he was in a serious relationship.

 Just back in December she had another child with another boyfriend that she is currently living with. But just this past weekend she yelled at my SD for not telling her about my baby shower. Fortunately, SD is now 14 and can clearly see her mom's reaction is over the top and inappropriate as there is no normal reason why she should care. BPDex also tried to pick a fight with DH over text, which she hasn't done in months. She is becoming more and more triggered as we near my due date, even though she has a new baby and she and the boyfriend just moved to a bigger apartment and got engaged.

 I don't feel threatened by her. As Panda said, we can't control the BPD person. We can only control our reaction and taking charge of our  boundaries. She doesn't need to get it. That she doesn't get it is her problem. The real problem is the way she uses and manipulates the kids based on her feelings.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2017, 06:50:47 AM »

The common wisdom here regarding emails from the ex is to ignore anything not related to the child and to reply only to a direct need to communicate regarding a custody or childcare issue or need.

One physical technique to help do this is to print out email and then use a black marker to cross out anything not related to the child. It clarifies quickly how much of the email is irrelevant to co-parenting.

Do not respond. It's true - negative attention is still the attention she craves.

As to the illusion of a relationship with your SO... .you can't control her mental process that leads her to believe this. Recently, my DH's ex (uNPD/BPD) had serious conflicts with her current live-in. She called DH, purportedly about something going on with the adult children, only to turn the conversation to her relationship crisis and PROPOSE THAT SHE AND DH GET BACK TOGETHER. To understand how preposterous this is... .DH and I have been married for 11 years, and their marriage was so bad on so many levels that I could write a novel about it. DH talked her around to accepting that she was in a long term relationship that required work, and she subsequently resolved things with her SO.

We're in our 60s - and this still happens. Sometimes I actually have a sense of humor about it.
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« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2017, 03:29:13 PM »

I can totally relate. My fiance's ex-wife (divorced 2 years - have 1 daughter 11 - ex wife had an affair - he left) It's been 2 years and my fiance's ex still sobs whenever she sees him "I miss you, I miss my best friend, I miss the good times, you never gave me a chance, I miss our family, WAH" She has made our lives an absolute hell because of it. She's extremely envious of me, says awful things about me to the daughter. She can't deal. She won't move on (even though she's still with the man she had the affair with.)
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bunny4523
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2017, 04:34:48 PM »

Hi Snazzy,

I've been through it too and the short and the sweet advice I have is... .actions speak louder than words.   He is with you.  No need to verbalize it over and over.

Try not to let her thoughts into your world.  Her words mean absolutely nothing unless you start buying into them.  I remember at first, I would get upset and first response was to expect my husband (boyfriend at the time)  "set her straight" but I quickly learned that it was wasted energy and we could better be spending our time loving each other.  Soon I realized we have nothing to prove... .she can believe whatever she wants.

It gave me a sense of freedom.  Now when she starts these "bonding" moments, I make a silly sarcastic response and my husband and I can laugh about it.  It means nothing to us.  Rather than going into her world and trying to "straighten" it out... .we jumped back into our world and enjoy one another.

I'm sure it sounds easier said than done... .just try to focus on what is truely important.

My husbands ex has a new boyfriend for over 3 years now that she lives with. She text my husband about a year ago saying how she is sorry about the past and that he (my husband) is the love of her life.  Nice, right?  Wonder how her new boyfriend would feel about that.  I just made a joke, "well that sucks for her since I'm the love of YOUR life and I'm not foolish enough to let you go."  

I know why she is so upset and angry and jealous.  Because she can't understand how I can possibly love this life she once had but she hated.  That's her issue, not mine and it can stay in her head. Smiling (click to insert in post)

Wishing you the best!
Bunny
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bunny4523
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« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2017, 04:42:17 PM »

 Snazzy,

BTW - I heard the whole "your not even his wife" and then even after I was his wife... then I was "only a stepmom."  Now I did reply to that comment with a bit of a sharp tongue.  I very quickly rattled off ... ."obviously I'm not just a step-mom or you wouldn't be so threatened." and then I hung up.  I do not engage with her when she is being like that.  But I don't completely cut her off either.  I still reach out or respond whenever necessary.  But if she gets mean, I end the conversation.

 I decided early on that her opinion of my role is irrelevant.  I'm there for my stepdaughters and that's whose opinion I care about.  We have my 10 year old step daughter every other week.  I see her just as often as her mother does.  I'm in this whether she likes it or not.

Bunny
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snazzyjazz

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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2017, 07:40:50 AM »

Oh wow, everyone - your replies are SO validating and so insightful, I don't have the brain power to reply to everyone at once. I have to say though, I really REALLY appreciate you sharing your stories with me - makes me feel less nuts and alone. You are all very right, actions speak louder than words, and what she feels and worries about is not our concern; we can spend our time doing better things than stressing over her words and perceptions. As of yet, she only bad-mouthed me in a very minor way to her daughter, a couple years ago, calling me a teenager (I'm younger than she is and was in my early 20s), but otherwise she has reserved her outbursts to physically avoiding me (to our massive inconvenience sometimes) and criticizing us via texts/emails, well out of the range of her daughter. Our focus is on making sure SD6 gets through her childhood happy and healthy, and we are doing our very best to intercept any negative behavioural influences her mom may be having on her. For example, we've been working on identifying feelings and talking about them instead of lashing out - classic 6yo issue, but we're aware of the possibility that her mom isn't the best role model for this.

I'd like some group input on one more thing. X frequently tries to impose limits on what activities I am "allowed" and "not allowed" to do with SD, notably discussing things that are sensitive in nature, saying things are private intimate matters that should be dealt with by parents only. I'm educated in childhood education and development and I'm a trained teacher with experience, so BF has usually sought out and appreciated my input on sensitive matters, in addition to / replacement for hers. (She protests topics like body safety, as well as school events, trips away, etc.) My view is that if my BF feels like including me in these activities with his child as he's been doing for years, I shouldn't not participate just because she's expressed displeasure. He's stumped for how to reply, because if he doesn't and she hears about us having done something, she goes all, "I thought we agreed, we had discussed, you were not to do this, what happened to being a parenting team... ." With all you've said above, I'm now leaning towards not replying and just living our home life as we choose to without her input, including doing what 1/2 of the parenting team (my BF) deems appropriate when SD is with us. Thoughts?

Much love and good vibes!
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bunny4523
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 10:29:28 AM »



I'd like some group input on one more thing. X frequently tries to impose limits on what activities I am "allowed" and "not allowed" to do with SD, notably discussing things that are sensitive in nature, saying things are private intimate matters that should be dealt with by parents only. I'm educated in childhood education and development and I'm a trained teacher with experience, so BF has usually sought out and appreciated my input on sensitive matters, in addition to / replacement for hers. (She protests topics like body safety, as well as school events, trips away, etc.) My view is that if my BF feels like including me in these activities with his child as he's been doing for years, I shouldn't not participate just because she's expressed displeasure. He's stumped for how to reply, because if he doesn't and she hears about us having done something, she goes all, "I thought we agreed, we had discussed, you were not to do this, what happened to being a parenting team... ." With all you've said above, I'm now leaning towards not replying and just living our home life as we choose to without her input, including doing what 1/2 of the parenting team (my BF) deems appropriate when SD is with us. Thoughts?

Much love and good vibes!

Hi Snazzy,

I've been down this road to and all I can do is tell you what worked for us.  We decided to take the approach of WE decide what is appropriate or not appropriate in our family.  Now we didn't tell her that but that was our mind set.  We were more gentle about it and not specific, more of a general rule.  My husband just gently told her something like. " you and I have different ideas of how a relationship should be and how involved we want our partners to be. I want my wife involved in day to day events with the girls.  You don't want your boyfriend involved.  That doesn't make one of us right and the other one wrong.  It is simply different."

When she demands that I not go to say a parent teacher conference, we just let her know that I WILL be attending.  We don't even explain it... .it just is what it is.  She doesn't do real well with it in the moment but each episode that follows seems to be less intense... .it's like she is learning that we will not engage and argue with her.  We SHOW her that it isn't her decision to make.    I have to tell you though we feel great because we are no longer trying to reason with her or defend ourselves. (it's kind of a similar approach that I took while raising teenagers) 

Just recently she informed me that I didn't need to be at my stepdaughters high school graduation (that's why she was only giving us 1 ticket)  I showed her that I did need to be there by ATTENDING.   (I found my own ticket).  We told her ONCE that the tickets should be split equally since it is a 50/50 custody arrangement.  As hard as that was for my husband to not go off on her... .we did not engage.  We just put our energy into solving OUR issue.  And just to finish this story with a happy ending you should know that we ended up with 6 tickets total.  We were able to invite my husbands father, give 2 tickets to a wonderful woman who saw our flyer and was trying to help us find 1 ticket, and gave the last ticket to a grandfather at the graduation,  walking with a cane, and holding a sign saying he would pay $50 to see his grandaughter get her diploma. (and of course we did not take any money for it).  Smiling (click to insert in post)

My point with that happy ending story is don't waste your energy fighting her or arguing or letting her get you down or trying to reach her so she will see your side.  Put that energy into something positive.  She will NEVER see your side, she can't afford to.   She needs to believe what she believes or it could destroy her.   Your job is to not let her thoughts/beliefs get in your head and make you doubt yourself... .   

I hope this helps. Smiling (click to insert in post)  I initially joined this board because I was detaching from an ex with UBPD... .Let me tell you... .  Having an intimate partner with this disorder is soo much harder than coping with an X with the disorder. I just keep her at a healthy distance and try not to take her outbursts personally. 

The real challenge here is understanding how the BPD effects the children and teaching them the tools they will need one day to deal with her without them knowing why.  I can already see that our 10 year old is feeling responsible for mom's emotions... .but I can also see that she sees me as emotionally strong and balanced.  She leans on me for that stability and all I can do is pray she stays close to me so that she grows up with the least amount of damage from this lowsy disorder. 


Bunny   
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snazzyjazz

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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2017, 11:53:45 PM »

Bunny, thank you SO much for that. I find your story wonderfully helpful and I'll be keeping it in mind. Good strategy with the graduation - solving your problem, not engaging with her. Go you. Thanks again. Smiling (click to insert in post) xx
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« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2017, 04:30:14 PM »

I can totally relate. My fiance's ex-wife (divorced 2 years - have 1 daughter 11 - ex wife had an affair - he left) It's been 2 years and my fiance's ex still sobs whenever she sees him "I miss you, I miss my best friend, I miss the good times, you never gave me a chance, I miss our family, WAH" She has made our lives an absolute hell because of it. She's extremely envious of me, says awful things about me to the daughter. She can't deal. She won't move on (even though she's still with the man she had the affair with.)

oh so frustrating!  in the middle of this too.  I can handle it but it's the girls I worry about.  They don't know that what they are being told doesn't really make sense.  Too young to understand/lack of experience.  Mom still loves Dad (although she left him for someone she has been with since before I came into the picture and is still with him) She bashes my husband every chance she gets, lies... .screams, hollers about hating him, ignores him, won't say hello during drop offs.  What a poor example of how to behave when you love someone.  I hope one day the girls will understand that... .
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snazzyjazz

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« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2017, 12:40:49 AM »

Gosh, Bunny, I worry about the example mom is setting for how to love someone, too. Six years of pining over a man who doesn't want to be with her; abuse, berating, tantrums, manipulation, hateful speech, yet she tells her daughter she loves him; she cries openly and tells her daughter that her father broke her heart, that she's broken-hearted, six years later... .Not setting a good example for what love is supposed to look like, but worse, not setting an example for how you're supposed to be responsible for yourself, not a perpetual victim. I worry about this a lot. We hope her father and I are showing her what love is supposed to look like, warts and all, and how to appropriately handle disagreements, but... .You know, every once in a while, when she talks about her mom, she tells me she's broken-hearted with this big sad expression - like that's what she knows of her mother, like that was the most important thing about her she wanted to share. It makes me so sad.
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2017, 10:30:26 AM »

It is so sad.

Thank you for your compassion and your response.  It is very sad and I often feel lost because none of it makes sense to me so I don't know what to do next.  Usually I can listen to someone and find the root of the pain which explains their actions.  With BPD, the emotions change day to day, hour to hour, minute to minute so the actions only make sense for a temporary time period.  How do you fix a problem that just keeps changing?  For the first year I was with my husband, I heard what a loser, bad father, how she DIVORCED him, how he has anger issues... .I could just go on and on. None of it made sense to me because I saw someone so different than she did. I was almost waiting to see some sign of the things she had described yet I never did.  We have been together for 2 years and friends for 2.5 before that... .He is the most loving, caring, gentle man and so easy to communicate with.  He has his bad days too but can't even call them bad.  He is so easy to communicate with even during difficult and stressful times.   

It's like the ex BPD fluxuates from such broad ends of the spectrum.  "Your Dad never helped with anything around the house." I heard that over and over again from her and then later from the girls (like little parrots).  Now, she is complaining to the girls that her boyfriend never helps around the house with anything.  When the youngest daughter said something to her mom about Dad is always busy cleaning/cooking... .now I am hearing comments like, "I want Dad to be a Dad and just play with me and not be like a girl and clean and cook."   These type of things are so minor but make my head spin.  All I could do was tell her that I like that Dad helps me and I think he should and that I hoped when she has a husband one day that he help out too.  I also told her I always saw my Dad cooking and cleaning too when I was growing up.  The kids are just so impressionable and absorb this stuff without really running it through a sanity check... .because unfortunately they trust their mom for that. 

I think that is the hardest part.  How she twists things to always make everything we do bad.  "You don't help out enough financially, I pay for everything."  We buy the high school senior a laptop for college (a mac) and that turns into "Oh you think you can just buy her and win her over by spending money on her... ."  It was for college... .  We offer chores to the girls to earn money so they don't have to ask their mom for money all the time then we get accussed of "making them our slaves." 

Ugh... .It's like dealing with an irrational, emotional teenager... .we can't win EVER and I think that is the hardest part to remember. We just need to continue with what we think is the right thing to do because even if we discuss it with her and agree on a plan together... .we will get bashed later for doing it because she will twist it and make it look bad.  She will never like us or gives us a compliment... .all she will ever do is try to break us down.  Accepting that is key.  It's just so hard for me sometimes cause my heart goes out to her, I know she is really hurting and I wish I could help her.  But i need to remember it's wasted energy... .

I'm not used to this, my ex husband had a wife before me and one after me that I co parented with very well.  We actually leaned on and supported each other.  I guess I should rest in that knowing it isn't me! 

Bunny
 
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