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Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits. Practicing lawyer, Senior Family Mediator, and former Licensed Clinical Social Worker with twelve years’ experience and an expert on navigating the Family Court process.
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I_Am_The_Fire
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Relationship status: Divorced
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« on: July 20, 2017, 05:52:43 PM »

Hi! I just joined today. I found this place through searching on a non-child related topic about dealing with my ex (he's repeatedly demanding vague apologies from me out of the blue). He is a covert narcissist who may be un-diagnosed BPD (UxBPDh, did I get that right?). So far two separate therapists have told me he is a covert narcissist and could have BPD, not quite NPD though.

We were married for over twenty years. We have been divorced for about a year now. We have two children and 50/50 custody. About three years ago, I was diagnosed with PTSD from being in abusive relationships my entire life, including my father. I go to trauma therapy regularly. My kids were seeing a good child therapist during the divorce and still see her. I divorced him when I realized he had been emotionally abusing me and the children (he still does). We went to marriage counseling which helped me to see that the marriage was done. I was done. His behavior only got worse and he blamed me for what he was saying and doing. It was affecting the kids in a very bad way. They were acting out and hurting other kids and the pets. I knew with everything in me that I had to get out. So I did. It was far from easy but the best thing I could have done for the kids and myself.

Now, their behavior has improved by leaps and bounds when they are with me. They don't hurt other kids anymore or the pets. I love them, listen to them, and set good boundaries with them and they listen to me! I hardly have any behavior issues with them anymore!

The divorce took about a year and it was definitely high conflict. He kept trying to alienate the children against me and it was one of the most hellish years of my life. I did my best to not alienate the kids against him during that time. I still try my best to not say anything bad about him to them. Now my oldest seems to see through what he's doing and doesn't seem to buy into his drama. She's in middle school. I don't want her to fuel his supply and manage his emotions. I was co-dependent all of my life and wouldn't wish it on anyone. I'm hoping her therapist can help with this.

I'm learning to use the "gray rock" communication technique. I think it's great! My ex, not so much since he seems to thrive on drama. In the beginning after the divorce, I tried to co-parent with him and quickly learned it wasn't going to work. He tried to tell me how I should parent and that I was doing it all wrong. I now use parallel parenting and it works so much better. We only communicate via text, email, and now the Talking Parents web site.

He's currently trying a smear campaign against me and trying to triangulate my family into not supporting me anymore. Thankfully they aren't buying it. He is still trying to alienate my oldest against me and she isn't buying it either. He recently told her that she should be on his side. I told her there are no sides when it comes to him and I. I also told her that it's okay for her to love him and to have a good relationship with him and I hope they do. She said she doesn't like him and I feel sad when I hear her say that. Sometimes I don't know what to say to her other than I am sorry to hear that.

I found the articles here related to all this and will take the time to read them. I mostly wanted to introduce myself.  I'm also looking for advice on how to help both of them (youngest is 5) in dealing with him when they are with him. There is just so much going on that it's hard for me to know what to ask about specifically.  I am documenting as much as I can how he is emotionally abusive - he gaslights, rewrites history, blames/shames, invalidates, dehumanizes, manipulates (passive-aggressive), flies into rages at the drop of a hat, and so on. It's frustrating and sometimes I don't know what I can do to help them.

Thank you
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"My mission in life is not merely to survive, but to thrive; and to do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor, and some style" ~ Maya Angelou
Panda39
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Relationship status: SO and I have been together 9 years and have just moved in together this summer.
Posts: 3462



« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 07:44:47 PM »

Hi I_Am_The_Fire,

Welcome to the BPD Family   

You most definitely are one of our "peeps" so much of your story is so similar to our collective story.  I'm here because my significant other (SO) has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) with whom he shares 2 daughters D16 & D20.

He went through a high conflict 2 year divorce 7 years ago... .kids spying on him and going through his things and reporting back to their mother, and false allegations of child abuse were just a couple of the highlights.   

When the divorce was finally through my SO had Medical, Dental, and Education decision making and slightly over 50% custody.  It's interesting to me knowing what I do now, that the judge actually set my SO and his ex up to parallel parent.  Attempts at Co-parenting didn't work in our situation either... .it sucks because the kids are the ones that lose out.

It sounds like you are doing many good things that are helpful, texting/emailing, gray rock, parallel parenting, all of you in therapy, your daughter is not buying the BS... .

Where are areas that you think you need support? 

All of the members here are great for support, ideas, tools and will listen when you just need to vent.

So again welcome, I know other members will be along soon to say hello too.

Take Care,
Panda39
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Turkish
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Dad to my wolf pack


« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 11:48:22 PM »

Hello I_Am_The_Fire,

I'd like to join Panda39 in welcoming you here!

It sounds like you've set a good foundation for you and your kids.  Despite what you went through,  going back to childhood,  and even what you are dealing with now,  you are teaching your children what is acceptable in relationships, and this is a significant gift to give them.   

It sounds like you are hesitant to discuss with your daughter she not liking your father.  Maybe you are feeling like a deep discussion could slip into alienation? I get that you don't want to hurt her.  A book we recommend here can help.  It is specifically for parents to learn validation skills with their kids,  and was written by two protégés of Marsha Linehan, who developed DBT:

The Power of Validation (for parents) - Karyn D. Hall, PhD

Interestingly,  reading it made me think about how much I was invalidated by my BPD mother as a child... .

The examples and techniques I think will help you have a healthy discussion with her.  I look forward to hearing more how we can support you.

Turkish



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I_Am_The_Fire
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Relationship status: Divorced
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« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2017, 11:13:29 AM »

Panda39 and Turkish, thank you for the warm welcome. :-)

I believe this forum can really help me with support - I'm not crazy and I'm on the right track with helping my kids. Or if I'm not on the right track, what can I do to fix that? While reading some of the threads, I started to cry. I think I'm feeling validated in that I feel my ex's behaviors are not healthy. Its good (and sad) to know I'm not alone in this and I'm not crazy. I'm a bit amazed at how much I can relate.

Thank you, Turkish, for the book suggestion. I'll look into it. Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think I struggle with figuring out how to talk with my daughter (D12) because I was emotionally shut down pretty much my entire life (I'm in my 40s) up until a few years ago when I was diagnosed with PTSD and started trauma therapy. I never knew how to talk to anyone about my feelings or how to validate others' thoughts and feelings. I'm struggling and learning at the same time. I'm also doing inner child work with my therapist. It's been extremely insightful. I'm learning what emotionaly needs I did not get as a child and how that has affected my relationships and my parenting.

It feels sad and odd when I recently discovered I started to dissociate when I was 4-5 years old due to trauma. My youngest is 5. Sometimes I'm scared I'll do to her what was done to me. Same with my oldest. I think I'm hypervigilant at times and am scared I'll do something to her that will traumatize her for life. I also know that I can't not do anything either.

I think because of this sometimes my mind goes blank and I can't think of anything to say other than "I'm sorry to hear that."  The other times when I feel more mindful, I just listen to what she has to say and I try to empathize with her, such as "I imagine you felt sad when that happened." She recently told me she felt angry because of something I had done. I told her that it's okay that she feels angry and that I'm glad she told me how she felt. Then I told her I was sorry for what I had done (I felt I did need to apologize). Then she told me that she feels safe telling me how she feels. Yeah, I cried. It made me feel good. We had a good hug after that.

I just realized I wrote "I'm not crazy" a few times. Ha... For the last year, my ex has been trying to gaslight me into thinking I'm crazy, that I don't have PTSD, and that I made up my entire past about being abused. He's also become much more aggressive this last year. I believe he's trying to get a negative emotional reaction from me so he can point out that I'm unstable and abusive. He's done it many times before and I've learned (the hard way) that's why gray rock is so important.

One day before I filed for divorce a few years ago, he wanted to discuss something with me. I said okay and asked him if we could talk about it later because I was tired. It had been a long day. He ignored me and went on a tirade about something I had done. It turned into a lecture about what a horrible person I am. He wouldn't let me get a word in and just kept going on and on. I asked him to stop. He didn't. I was starting to feel angry and depressed and my anxiety went through the roof. I had been in trauma therapy for only one week and he knew that. I told him I needed a time out. He didn't stop and kept going. I left the room. He followed me yelling at me. I begged him to stop. He kept going. I was sobbing and begging him to stop. He didn't. He kept going. I ended up curled in a ball on the floor sobbing. At this point, he sat down next to me and told me I was unstable and a danger to the children. I later learned that he had re-traumatized me from something that had happened in my childhood.

What kind of person does that to the one they claim to love? We had been together for twenty years. This is the person I'm having to deal with. This is the person who I have to share custody of my children with. This is the person who never saw anything wrong with what he did and completely justifies it to this day along with just about everything else.

He still tries to treat me as an emotional punching bag by telling me how I ruined his life, that I will be alone and bitter, that I abuse everyone around me, that everyone will see me for who I really am, that I'm a terrible mother, that I'm a narcissist and have a mental disorder, that he's tried to fix me but I refuse to get help, that everything I say is projection and manipulation, and so on. I believe he is the one projecting. My therapist has been helping me with recognizing this. When I stand up for myself (I tell him I disagree and leave it at that), he goes on a rant for days in email about how it's all my fault and he's the victim here and then point blank tells me he refuses to read my responses because he claims they are abusive. It seems really messed up. I now have a close friend who reads his messages and lets me know if there is anything important in there about the kids. I now just try to ignore the non-important things he writes. Some days are better than others. I try to remind myself that I'm free and he can't hurt me anymore unless I let him. I am also working hard to show my kids what a healthy relationship is between people and I hope they get it. I don't want them to go through what I did.

Sorry for the long post. Thanks for letting me vent.
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"My mission in life is not merely to survive, but to thrive; and to do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor, and some style" ~ Maya Angelou
Panda39
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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Relationship status: SO and I have been together 9 years and have just moved in together this summer.
Posts: 3462



« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2017, 10:03:58 PM »

... .I'm not crazy... .

No your not crazy, a person with BPD in your life can sure make you feel that way though it can be very chaotic.  When I first started dating my SO I couldn't understand why his ex did the things she did particularly in relation to her daughters.  I actually found out about BPD by Googling "Chronic Lying" and the shoe fit.  She has been diagnosed as BiPolar but I think (in my very unprofessional opinion) that BPD is more accurate.  I was amazed when I arrived here at how similar our stories and experiences are.

You are not crazy and you are not alone in having to negotiate all of this stuff 

If you've got the time you might want to read about BPD if you haven't already.  I started with my local library and read everything I could, it really helped to understand and lessen the chaos once I understood what was going on.  Understanding what BPD is was the first step in learning how to deal with my SO's ex.  Below are a couple of books that I thought were good if your interested... .

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder
by Paul T. Mason, Randi Kreger

Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by Valerie Porr M. A.

It took me more time to get over being angry, I arrived here really angry and it took me some time to let that go, then it took more time to look a things objectively, not take things personally, then it took time to learn tools an strategies to negotiate his ex.

I know you feel unsure, but you are way ahead of where I was in terms of tools and skills than I was when I arrived here.  You are on the right track in helping your kids, your sensitivity to your kids feelings, your ability to listen to them, your ability to admit if you are wrong all support your kids trust in you.

While reading some of the threads, I started to cry. I think I'm feeling validated in that I feel my ex's behaviors are not healthy. Its good (and sad) to know I'm not alone in this and I'm not crazy. I'm a bit amazed at how much I can relate.

I often find that when my reaction is to cry it means I've hit on something that is true. It's as if I can't rationally put something into words but my body feels the truth and reacts.

And by the way... .You're not crazy!  Smiling (click to insert in post) 

I think I struggle with figuring out how to talk with my daughter (D12) because I was emotionally shut down pretty much my entire life (I'm in my 40s) up until a few years ago when I was diagnosed with PTSD and started trauma therapy. I never knew how to talk to anyone about my feelings or how to validate others' thoughts and feelings. I'm struggling and learning at the same time. I'm also doing inner child work with my therapist. It's been extremely insightful. I'm learning what emotionaly needs I did not get as a child and how that has affected my relationships and my parenting.

I've pulled a thread that you might find helpful... .


What to tell kids about a high-conflict co-parent

In this article, Bill Eddy writes, "Many parents have asked us about how to raise a child or children with a co-parent (whether a spouse, former spouse or unmarried partner) who is “high-conflict.” It is very important to avoid being accused of “bad-mouthing” the other parent, by speaking negatively about him or her to the children and providing too much information about adult issues, such as a court case. On the other hand, you want to protect your children from the blaming and uncontrolled behavior of the high-conflict co-parent, and to provide the children with coping skills and help them not blame themselves. Read more.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=203238.0

Here is a link to further information on Raising Resilient Kids When a Parent Has BPD

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=182254.msg1331459#msg1331459

I think I'm hypervigilant at times and am scared I'll do something to her that will traumatize her for life. I also know that I can't not do anything either.

This is exactly why you are unlikely to traumatize your daughter for life, hypervigilant, and clearly love your children it seems to me that it is highly unlikely you will traumatize you kids.  Just don't let fear paralyze you into inaction when you have to deal with tough stuff.

I think because of this sometimes my mind goes blank and I can't think of anything to say other than "I'm sorry to hear that."  The other times when I feel more mindful, I just listen to what she has to say and I try to empathize with her, such as "I imagine you felt sad when that happened." She recently told me she felt angry because of something I had done. I told her that it's okay that she feels angry and that I'm glad she told me how she felt. Then I told her I was sorry for what I had done (I felt I did need to apologize). Then she told me that she feels safe telling me how she feels. Yeah, I cried. It made me feel good. We had a good hug after that.

Everything you describe above is excellent, empathy, listening, validating, learning to be mindful you got it all goin' on!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) I think you're doing a great job, maybe it feels awkward because they are skills you're learning, are conscious of when you're doing them, and don't feel quite natural yet.  Keep doing what you're doing and over time with it should start feeling more natural.


I just realized I wrote "I'm not crazy" a few times. Ha... For the last year, my ex has been trying to gaslight me into thinking I'm crazy, that I don't have PTSD, and that I made up my entire past about being abused. He's also become much more aggressive this last year. I believe he's trying to get a negative emotional reaction from me so he can point out that I'm unstable and abusive. He's done it many times before and I've learned (the hard way) that's why gray rock is so important.

One day before I filed for divorce a few years ago, he wanted to discuss something with me. I said okay and asked him if we could talk about it later because I was tired. It had been a long day. He ignored me and went on a tirade about something I had done. It turned into a lecture about what a horrible person I am. He wouldn't let me get a word in and just kept going on and on. I asked him to stop. He didn't. I was starting to feel angry and depressed and my anxiety went through the roof. I had been in trauma therapy for only one week and he knew that. I told him I needed a time out. He didn't stop and kept going. I left the room. He followed me yelling at me. I begged him to stop. He kept going. I was sobbing and begging him to stop. He didn't. He kept going. I ended up curled in a ball on the floor sobbing. At this point, he sat down next to me and told me I was unstable and a danger to the children. I later learned that he had re-traumatized me from something that had happened in my childhood.

What kind of person does that to the one they claim to love? We had been together for twenty years. This is the person I'm having to deal with. This is the person who I have to share custody of my children with. This is the person who never saw anything wrong with what he did and completely justifies it to this day along with just about everything else.

He still tries to treat me as an emotional punching bag by telling me how I ruined his life, that I will be alone and bitter, that I abuse everyone around me, that everyone will see me for who I really am, that I'm a terrible mother, that I'm a narcissist and have a mental disorder, that he's tried to fix me but I refuse to get help, that everything I say is projection and manipulation, and so on. I believe he is the one projecting. My therapist has been helping me with recognizing this. When I stand up for myself (I tell him I disagree and leave it at that), he goes on a rant for days in email about how it's all my fault and he's the victim here and then point blank tells me he refuses to read my responses because he claims they are abusive. It seems really messed up.

So much of what you describe with your ex is very familiar, gaslighting, using FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail, projection... .abuse... .I'm so sorry you've had to deal with all of it.  But it's clear you are beginning to recognize the dysfunctional behaviors for what they are.

Hey have I told you lately... .You're not crazy  Being cool (click to insert in post)
 
I now have a close friend who reads his messages and lets me know if there is anything important in there about the kids. I now just try to ignore the non-important things he writes.

Above is an excellent strategy.  My SO also had to learn when and when not to respond to his ex. The less you interact the better don't fan the drama... .don't JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) that just leads to more drama.  When you do have to communicate try using BIFF (Brief, Informational, Friendly, Firm) in other words keep it short and sweet and like you are already doing don't respond to anything that isn't a legitimate communication about your children.

Some days are better than others. I try to remind myself that I'm free and he can't hurt me anymore unless I let him. I am also working hard to show my kids what a healthy relationship is between people and I hope they get it. I don't want them to go through what I did.

It's a journey just keep setting goals and go after them.  Your kids are lucky to have you.

Panda39



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Turkish
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Posts: 12104


Dad to my wolf pack


« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 10:51:31 PM »

IATF-

I can relate to feeling emotionally shut down.  As much as I don't like to give her credit,  this observation of me from my ex has some truth (my view was that I never felt safe opening up around her,  but that's another story). Being stoic helped me survive as a child. We don't, however,  know what we don't know,  and it's hard to unlearn this as an adult given no healthy models or mirrors.  As parents,  we are mirrors for our children as they grow and develop their own sense of self (something lacking in a pwBPD--- hence chronic feelings of emptiness).

I invite you to also post on the Coping and Healing board of you want to explore the past and get support with that as well concurrently with what work you are doing with your T. We'd love to have you there as well 
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I_Am_The_Fire
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Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 279



« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2017, 09:46:30 AM »

Panda39 - Thank you so very much! I will take a look at those books and links as well. I will also work on finding a balance in my reading about BPD so that I don't detract from my own healing and therapy work. Everything you wrote really resonates with me. You hit it all spot on. I believe you're right in that it feels awkward because it's new to me and I'm still learning.

Fear used to paralyze me into inaction for years when things got tough with my ex. That was one of the first things I worked on in my therapy. I would totally "check out" mentally and emotionally. I now know I was dissociating. Now I'm much better at not doing that, in general. I'm getting better at recognizing my triggers too. It's a process and I try to remind myself of that.

I'm glad you mentioned the acronyms. I'm familiar with the concepts but I think the acronyms (FOG, JADE, BIFF) will help me remember it better.

Thank you for the reassurance that I'm on the right track. My confidence was super low for many years... .well, most of my life. It's something I'm still working on.

By the way, I am not crazy.  Smiling (click to insert in post) Thank you for all the reminders.   I think that may be my daily mantra now.

Turkish - Thank you as well. What you said also resonates with me. As I heal, I'm learning to be a better parent. I tell myself it's a process, it won't happen overnight, more than likely I will make mistakes at times (I am human and that is okay), and it's important to keep working at it. I will definitely head over to the Coping and Healing board as well. Thank you. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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"My mission in life is not merely to survive, but to thrive; and to do so with some passion, some compassion, some humor, and some style" ~ Maya Angelou
Panda39
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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Relationship status: SO and I have been together 9 years and have just moved in together this summer.
Posts: 3462



« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2017, 11:28:38 AM »

Excerpt
I am not crazy.  Smiling (click to insert in post) Thank you for all the reminders.  I think that may be my daily mantra now.

Love it!  Maybe we should make t-shirts  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Panda39

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bunny4523
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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2017, 12:37:10 PM »

Hi I am on Fire,

You sound like your doing an amazing job!  Be proud of yourself.  Everyone has offered so much good advice on this thread.  I know it's hard to know what to say and not say about your ex to the children but keep in mind validating the truth that they are seeing is NOT talking bad about their father.  It took me a while to learn that.  I was a accused of "sugar coating" things in an attempt to protect my kids from the things their father did. (he was not BPD) My boys thought I was keeping them from their father but once they got old enough they saw it was their Dad's choice not to come around.  Once they started seeing it, I had to be very careful how I responded.  I didn't want to tell them that what they were feeling wasn't real... .they felt like their Dad didn't care to see them often... .well it was true so I didn't deny what they were feeling, I just focused on how they felt about it and how it is hurtful.  Also accepting this is the way their Dad is and we would all need to find a way to accept and deal with him as he is... .it is not the kind of father that I wanted my boys to grow up to be and I made sure to clarify that too.  Very thin line I walked on.

Hope that helps a little... .

Bunny
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I_Am_The_Fire
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Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 279



« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2017, 12:46:52 PM »

Panda39, that's actually a great idea!  Smiling (click to insert in post) I did a search and found a few good t-shirts that say things like "I'm not crazy. My reality is just different than yours."   I am now tempted to buy one.  

Bunny, thank you! It helps to hear that. I feel for what you're having to do as well. I'll focus on validating their feelings if anything. Thanks  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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