Hurt versus Harm

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've been agonizing over the question of whether to divorce my waif uBPDw or not for about two years since my unfolding and discovery of what BPD is.  There is no "smoking gun" or compelling externally visible reason for divorce.  What I do have is the growing conviction inside that I must in order to survive the future. 

I have been thinking about my five kids, who hang in the balance.  They certainly recognize that their mom and dad are not like most other mom and dads out there.  There is not love and harmony, and yet no overt verbal or physical violence.  In fact, my wife has made several acts of kindness and, except for the innate manipulation, splitting, blame, and projection, would pass for a great mom (a trait I recognize now as a BPD trait - but that's a concept for another thread).

I have been locked in indecision for fear of what will happen to the kids.  As a predominantly stay home mom with seasonal employment, she would stand to get the kids, house, etc, as a result of divorce. 

My thoughts of late have been about the kids.  I know they will be harmed if I stay, by not having refuge, or a view of life without mom's influence.  I know they will be hurt, and maybe harmed, by divorce, especially if it becomes contested.  I have been turning over the ideas as I compare hurt verses harm.

I am posting to ask others' thoughts on this.  This is a subject that seems to resonate deeply in me at the moment.  I feel as though it is better to hurt them with divorce than harm them with continuing to act as though status quo life, was the only option for living.  Heaven forbid they think this is life normal. 

Thanks for considering this.

[SamwizeGamgee]

I've been agonizing over the question of whether to divorce my waif uBPDw or not for about two years since my unfolding and discovery of what BPD is.  There is no "smoking gun" or compelling externally visible reason for divorce.  What I do have is the growing conviction inside that I must in order to survive the future. 

I have been thinking about my five kids, who hang in the balance.  They certainly recognize that their mom and dad are not like most other mom and dads out there.  There is not love and harmony, and yet no overt verbal or physical violence.  In fact, my wife has made several acts of kindness and, except for the innate manipulation, splitting, blame, and projection, would pass for a great mom (a trait I recognize now as a BPD trait - but that's a concept for another thread).

I have been locked in indecision for fear of what will happen to the kids.  As a predominantly stay home mom with seasonal employment, she would stand to get the kids, house, etc, as a result of divorce. 

My thoughts of late have been about the kids.  I know they will be harmed if I stay, by not having refuge, or a view of life without mom's influence.  I know they will be hurt, and maybe harmed, by divorce, especially if it becomes contested.  I have been turning over the ideas as I compare hurt verses harm.

I am posting to ask others' thoughts on this.  This is a subject that seems to resonate deeply in me at the moment.  I feel as though it is better to hurt them with divorce than harm them with continuing to act as though status quo life, was the only option for living.  Heaven forbid they think this is life normal. 

Thanks for considering this.

[GaGrl]

I can only reply from the perspective of what I see now of my stepchildren (as adults).

My DH stayed with his then-wife for many, many years through all of her uBPD/NPD dysfunction.  He does not easily admit error, which was part of it.  Another part of attempting to keep the extreme dysfunction of the marriage under wraps, another was guilt and shame.  His ex was continually and compulsively unfaithful and was blatant with her behavior. DH was deep in the FOG, feeling a special level of Obligation because he married her while stationed in SE Asia and brought her to a country where she had to learn English and had few resources for being independent (she has a minimal education).

There were periods of time when DH was not at home (in the military), so the primary influence was the disordered mother.  Those children saw behavior that children should not be exposed to.  They grew up with a distorted view of marriage.  By the time they were in their teens, each of the three children had asked why he did not divorce their mother.

Now all three of their children are adults in their 30's.  One has been divorced twice (each an attempt by the mother to arrange a marriage in her country, with the son not able or willing to resist her attempts, and neither marriage lasting longer than a year); this son does not date and we do not believe either of his marriages were consummated.  I do not know what is wrong, but in terms of relationships and marriage, he is extremely dysfunctional.  One daughter was adopted (a relative of the ex) but did not come to this country until age 14; she moves from one caretaker relationships to another and expects not to work while a man takes care of her financial needs.  The other is independent in terms of a career but is divorced and now in another long-term relationship that is dysfunctional (verbal and emotional abuse) with someone I would bet good money is uNPD.  She is aware enough now to say that she has tried to work out her relationship with her mother by marrying two men just like her mother.  Hmmmm... .

So, in retrospect, I sure wish DH had divorced his then-wife at least ten years earlier, gotten 50-50, and promptly put all three of his teens in therapy.

[BeagleGirl]

Samwise,
I'm still in the "conflicted" stage as far as divorce goes, but I can share a bit about what led me to pursue a separation (initially therapeutic, now legal) and how that has played out so far.

Like you, there's no smoking gun, overt abuse, or other clear justification for divorce.  I can't tell you the number of times that I've wished his words (spoken behind closed doors) and neglect would leave marks.  I think that's why I held onto hope for so long.  That and being what my T calls "overfunctioning" kept me convinced that I could and should carry the relationship and keep working towards finding that magical combination of words/actions that would make him understand and be the husband I wanted/needed. 

There was a trigger event that I won't get into here, but the real difference came as it dawned on me that if my sons (S18 and S14) grew up to be like their father I would be incredibly ashamed and concerned for the well-being of their wives and children.  Then it slowly dawned on me that I was doing nothing to indicate to my boys that what they saw in my marriage was not acceptable.  I spent 6 months trying to work things out without leaving.  Things went from bad to worse.  I left.  BPDh got his diagnosis.  His treatment of me has not changed, but what I accept and how I respond has.  Therapeutic separation went to legal separation when the few interactions we had revolved around him justifying his behavior and resorting to physical intimidation. 

My separation has provided a lot of clarity for me in a number of areas.  I'll focus on pwBPD and kids, but I've had just as much insight into my FOO relationships and am have had some of the greatest learnings about myself.

-BPDh follows abusive patterns.  Once T started suggesting I read some articles on abuse I couldn't avoid recognizing and "owning" that they described what I was experiencing.  While the abuse has been directed primarily at me, I can now see some patterns in his relationship with our boys.  Even if S18 and S14 aren't the targets and do not witness the verbal and emotional abuse episodes, I would be lying to myself if I said they don't pick up on the tension building, closed door conflict, apology, honeymoon pattern.

-BPDh is "outing" himself and his unhealthy behavior to our boys more and more as I am not there to compensate/smooth things over.  He may also be badmouthing me to them (yet another way of demonstrating unhealthy behavior) but I have to trust that they will eventually see the truth.

-S18 is avoiding relationships.  I can also see him falling into the same "Spock" syndrome that I use to avoid painful emotions.

-S14 is "trying on" some of BPDh's attitudes and techniques.  He is currently doing a lot of emotional manipulation and I worry that he is placing responsibility for his feelings on others rather than learning to own and deal with them.

I have "harmed" all three of these men by staying in a relationship that is unhealthy and abusive and by normalizing those behaviors.  I have also hurt all three of them by leaving the relationship.  It will continue to hurt if the separation continues and/or proceeds to divorce.  My hope, at least for my boys, is that the harm will be countered by witnessing true change and reconciliation between BPDh and me or by my example helping my sons learn how to deal with hurt in a healthy way. 

It's really hard for me to not view my leaving as a selfish act.  For a long time I felt like I couldn't trade my children's happiness for mine (separation/divorce breaking up their happiness but freeing me to experience happiness).  I also struggle with the idea of "If I was just stronger, I could fix this or at least endure the pain and shield them from the break-up of a family".  That said, I had reached a point where I was barely surviving and not able to be a mother to them.  Tonight I will enjoy an evening making spaghetti and meatballs, taking the dogs for a walk, and just hanging out with them.  I will be myself, not the skittish, anxious, exhausted woman I was before the separation.  There will be no need to interrupt an enjoyable family evening to have a "behind closed doors" abusive exchange with BPDh.  Nor will we all sit feeling the obvious tension of BPDh's silent treatment and walking on eggshells so we don't trigger an explosion.

Have you considered a separation, therapeutic or as a reality check for what divorce would be like?  Do you think BPDw would become high conflict if you tried a separation?

[takingandsending]

That said, I had reached a point where I was barely surviving and not able to be a mother to them.  Tonight I will enjoy an evening making spaghetti and meatballs, taking the dogs for a walk, and just hanging out with them.  I will be myself, not the skittish, anxious, exhausted woman I was before the separation.  There will be no need to interrupt an enjoyable family evening to have a "behind closed doors" abusive exchange with BPDh.

This!
The freedom to be myself Samwize is the biggest change that I have experienced in the 5 months since I have left the house. I think that my S6 and S11 see it and experience it, too. My uBPDxw was SAHM, our marriage had no infidelity, no significant crises, no blatant ruinous financial decisions. We had a high frequency of smaller amplitude seismic waves, i.e. a marriage bereft of intimacy, daily minor crises, frequent one sided small financial indiscretions, and of course, the underlying verbal/emotional abuse, blackmail, blame shifting and gas lighting accented with eruptions of rage. Dissected, perhaps not any one part so bad. Taken as a whole, as a pervasive pattern, incredibly dysfunctional.

And my kids are harmed by us being apart, but not as much as I had feared before I took this step. Unsolicited, parents from our school, S11's T, their music teacher, their school teachers have all remarked that they seem to be doing better, seem happier, than when we were living out our daily dysfunctional marriage. I see where they are struggling. I see how my xw and I interject confusion into their lives through our continued poor communications. I do my best to keep them out of the middle, where they absolutely do not belong. I can't prevent my wife's behaviors, but I don't have to engage in them the way that I did when I was there. And yes, I can cook spaghetti and meatballs and feel okay about dinner with my sons, not worry about peacemaking as my xw picks a fight with S11 over what he will or will not eat, or how he responds when she attacks him. A spaghetti and meatball dinner ... .amazing what living in FOG for years does to you.

[Panda39]

I was married to an alcoholic so different yet just as co-dependent as any other dysfunctional marriage.

I thought I was protecting my son during my 20 year marriage by keeping his fathers "bad drunk" behaviors directed at me.  But my son was there he saw and heard it all, lived in the tension of when was the next blow up going to happen, couldn't have friends over because of drunk man in the basement, couldn't count on his alcoholic dad, and had an exhausted/depressed mother that was not functioning on all cylinders.

My son's role in this dyfunctional family dynamic was to keep his head down and stay under the radar.

When I left it was much like the others have mentioned... .relief, freedom, relaxed atmosphere a safe place to just be ourselves. 

My son suddenly (but in retrospect not surprisingly) began showing symptoms of anxiety.  What he had surely been feeling on the inside for a long time surfaced in our new safe home.  He ended up going to therapy which was helpful but can still struggle with social anxiety.  He doesn't model his dad's behavior he is strongly anti-alcohol for himself so I assume he is modeling me.  Will he be co-dependent too? What did he learn from me? Hopefully not simply co-dependency, but also that you can chose to leave when things are abusive/dysfuntional/not working, that people can grow, learn and change, and what a happy, healthy relationship can look like (I have been happily involved with a wonderful man for the last 7 years).

My SO's uBPDxw is why you find me on these boards.  They have 2 daughters now 16 & 20.  My SO and his ex were married 17 years and yes that also had it's affects on their daughters.  D16 has PTSD and D20 was Parentified, in 2015 their mother sent D20 off to a private college told her the "family trust" (that didn't exist) would pay for school. D20 believed... .she wanted to believe... .and went off to school only to be told not to come back at Christmas break because her Fall Semester was not paid for.  She now is in debt to the tune of $15,000.  Summer 2015 her mother sent D16 (who I will remind you has PTSD) to Summer Camp several states away. Four days in to camp we find out D16 isn't at camp at all she is at a lady's house in a holding pattern waiting for mom to pay for camp.  Dad had no idea she was there until she called 4 days in.  Did I mention she was sent there on a one way ticket. Did I mention that camp the year before had not been paid for!

Those girls also had to watch their belongings put out on the lawn, then into storage, and then permanently lost due to 3 evictions and lack of payment.

D20 is nearly completely no contact with her mother, D16 still talks to her on the phone and occasionally will see her... .she is still hoping for a normal mom.

Both of the incidents in 2015 their dad had to pick up the pieces and thank God they had him!

He got D20 back into school locally, and instead of summer camp promises this year D16 has a job neither of which could have happened without their dad being free of the never-ending need of his ex.  When they were married everything and everyone centered around his ex, the children were secondary and my SO was last.  His dysfunctional wife was running the show, Captain of the sinking ship, even though my SO was there bailing as fast as he could.

Panda39

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you for your thoughts.   I know that this is one of those problems in which the solution, any solution, is painful.  I believe that it brings up that feeling when you gave your responses.  

Takingandsending "My uBPDxw was SAHM, our marriage had no infidelity, no significant crises, no blatant ruinous financial decisions. We had a high frequency of smaller amplitude seismic waves, i.e. a marriage bereft of intimacy, daily minor crises, frequent one sided small financial indiscretions, and of course, the underlying verbal/emotional abuse, blackmail, blame shifting and gas lighting accented with eruptions of rage. Dissected, perhaps not any one part so bad. Taken as a whole, as a pervasive pattern, incredibly dysfunctional."
----This is what I'm talking about too!  I think our experiences are slightly different, since each person is different and the balance between them makes a slightly different "cocktail" of abuse and victimhood.  I'm not excusing myself either.  I was depressed due to marital malaise and was also controlling, angry, and so forth.  But, as I realize now, it was in reaction to my wife.  Two years ago I moved to my own bed in the basement, and I have put away anger, control, and used my renewed peace-of-place to work on my skills and improvement. I was a good dad before, now I'm striving to be a great one.  I think I'm less of a husband now, in the sense that I'm not putting my wife on a throne, caring for her, (or that matter caring about her much); but again, that is a function of 20 years in this toxic marriage.  

Panda39, your experience is very valuable.  I read somewhere that kids often act the worst with the parent they trust won't hurt them back.  Ironically, they say that they hate the one they feel safest with.  I wonder if that's true, because I have endured some horrific treatment by my S12.  Whereas, he might just stomp off when dealing with my wife.  I used to react, and get angry in response too, into the cycle.  But, now my heart goes out to him.  I'm calm, and so sad for the anger he feels inside.  One part of me wants to experiment with a crystal ball and see the future if I do divorce my wife and see how the kids develop.  I suspect that with fair equal custody, the kids would have to thrive better than now.

This relates to Gagrl and BeagleGirl's comments.  
Aside, funny, I see myself as Spock very often now.  I think I could narrate the family dysfunction in an entirely third person "that's highly illogical, captain" voice.  It's a blessing and a curse to know now what I know.  I know how to deal with BPD abuse, but I know it is BPD abuse.  Like the proverbial Red Pill in the Matrix.  Once you know, you can't un-know.  

Thanks for everyone's comments, I'm still thinking about them.  
Hurt or harm, and what degree is survivable?

[BeagleGirl]

I read somewhere that kids often act the worst with the parent they trust won't hurt them back.  Ironically, they say that they hate the one they feel safest with.

My T has made similar comments to me.  A few quotes from her that I mentally replay frequently (S14 is "vocal" about his displeasure at the situation by employing silent treatment and other FOG tools):

"Children often side with the person they are most afraid of losing, not the one they think is in the right."
"It's easiest to blame the 'over-functioner' when relationships become imbalanced."
"Sometimes it's just a function of being 14, not the situation they are in that you feel you caused."
"They see more than you want to admit, and that's not always a bad thing.  They see that you are responsible and stabilizing while BPDh is irresponsible and destabilizing."
"This too shall pass."

[takingandsending]

My S11 is desperate for his uBPDm's approval/acceptance. He has been painted black on some levels since he was 2 days old. It seems pretty common for kids to so desperately want attachment when it is missing with a parent. He knows he has my attachment, so he can let it out with me. He wants mom's attachment, so he alternates between pleasing and defensive rage when she criticizes/questions him. He is carrying a ball of shame, and aside from asking validating questions, letting him know I am there for him and trying to show him love beyond what he does or says, I have to meet him where he is at. It ain't always easy.

[ForeverDad]

My now-ex was not messed up when we first married but after we got married I found out how dysfunctional her childhood was.  I concluded she had an uBPD mother and uNPD abuser stepfather since she was 3 years old.  She was in her 20s during our first decade of marriage and over time she exhibited some BPD patterns.  Clueless me, I thought if we had a child she would be happier in life.  Nope, she relived her absused childhood through him.  Having children vastly complicated things so it was scary to ponder unwinding the marriage.

While she had most of the Borderline PD traits, she had all of the Paranoid PD traits.  Once she had driven away all friend and relatives - they were all "probably" abusers in her perceptions - I was the only one left.  It wasn't long before she started looking sideways at me.  So I triggered the separation (just a call to 911, a couple police officers and she eventually was arrested for Threat of DV) because I saw no other alternative to protect myself from false allegations.  She made them anyway of course but though each and every one was reported and most 'investigated' eventually her credibility was weakened.

If it weren't for the continuing imminent threats to block my parenting I probably would have stayed longer with her.  But then it wouldn't have been a good example for my son.  So I don't regret taking action since (1) it protected me and my parenting somewhat and (2) set a parenting schedule for my son that set boundaries for my son's life to have a calmer and more stable home with me.

It took several years to get custody (from late 2005 to 2011) but it wasn't until I got majority time in 2014 that her entitlement bubble shrank. Now, over a decade since separation, he's at my home even more than the order specifies, most days she drops him off while she works.  Less than 3 years until he's an adult and finished with high school.