Apology Demands

[RufusTFirefly]

How do people here handle apologizing for things they don't feel like they need to apologize for?

I can usually end explosive episodes with my uBPD partner if I just apologize for whatever it is they're upset about, but that takes the onus off of them. It feels like the wrong thing to do, but also is so much easier than dealing with a fight that may go on for days.

To be clear, if I've made a mistake, I have no problem apologizing. Often, I'll apologize for something, but not the specific thing she's asking me to apologize for ("I'm sorry for raising my voice" in an argument where she wants me to apologize for ever having dated anybody before we met).

So how do people here handle these demands for an apology?

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[allienoah]

Rufus I think we all have apologized for things we never did in the hopes of cutting off the tantrum, avoiding the rage, and trying to placate.  I know I have done this many, many times. Like you, I really have no problem apologizing when I know I was wrong, or if I inadvertently hurt someone's feelings, or was careless. The issue with apologizing is that if we continue to apologize for things we did not actually do, it wears away at our self esteem. We become unsure of ourselves and don't trust our own decisions. At least that has been my experience.

[MrRight]

How do people here handle apologizing for things they don't feel like they need to apologize for?

I can usually end explosive episodes with my uBPD partner if I just apologize for whatever it is they're upset about, but that takes the onus off of them. It feels like the wrong thing to do, but also is so much easier than dealing with a fight that may go on for days.

To be clear, if I've made a mistake, I have no problem apologizing. Often, I'll apologize for something, but not the specific thing she's asking me to apologize for ("I'm sorry for raising my voice" in an argument where she wants me to apologize for ever having dated anybody before we met).

So how do people here handle these demands for an apology?

This is one of the most galling and humiliating aspects of living with someone who suffers from BPD.

There are times when i am called upon to apologise - and have lost a sense of what the apology could be for - and I have apologised - just in order to move on. But the manner of apology has to be correct as well - it has to appear sincere - and this is a soul destroying experience.

yes it is tough and you should do what I don't, set as a standard for yourself - only apologise when it is just to do so.

[Tattered Heart]

Hi Rufus,

I agree with MrRight. I used to find myself apologizing for so many things that I didn't do wrong just to get things to stop. But does apologizing really stop the tantrum? I don't know about your situation, but for me, the apology would just lead to an hour long lecture on why I didn't apologize in the first place and how if I had just done that, things wouldn't have gotten so heated.

I've found that to prevent getting to the place where my uBPDh demands an apology, I have to really work on validation. ALOT. This one communication tool has de-escalated and prevented so many fights in my home. My first reaction when my H makes an accusation against me is to JADE (justify, argue, defend, explain). I have to resist that instinct because when I JADE, I invalidat what he is feeling at the moment. So, instead of JADEing, I take a moment and try to figure out what he is really saying to me: Is he feeling disrespected, worried, scared, ignored, etc. Then I validate that emotion.

If he begins to demand apologies from me or if I really don't think I did anything wrong, I will say, "It is not wrong for me to (fill in the blank). He will usually respond with something like, "It's not, but it is for you to do (whatever he REALLY thinks I did wrong)." If I was actually in the wrong when he shares the real reason, then I will say, "Oh. I didn't see it like that. I'm sorry that I did X (or sorry that what I said made you feel that way). I didn't mean to hurt you." Usually the real reason is the part that hurt his emotions.

[Pedro]

I apologized for issues, situations arguments she started or instigated for no obvious reason.

After using JADE dozens  of time, i knew i she could only see, feel  & hear her thoughts & emotions when imploding.  I did not have the education, knowledge & advice given here for me to be better equipped to help her. So for an easier coping mechanism & reduction of tension in the house or in public & my own sanity i apologized hundreds of time.

[Gumiho]

Hey Rufus~

As many people here on the boards we apologized for things we didn't do. I did it literally hundreds of times, most likely nearly always in an attempt to end conflict.
My uBPDgf just had me go through a week of silence treatment, because I tried to reinforce my boundary about her extensive blocking ... .I repeatadly told her I am fine if she has to block me on all ends for a couple of hours, but that the two months (and still ongoing) blocking is a no-go.
In the process of covert-JADEing (sometimes I can't control it still), I threw some lines at her saying something like "Look, I never had a problem admitting things I did wrong and apologize thereafter. But you made me lie and unjustly apologize so many times, just so you can win... .Everytime your emotions run out of control, you have to block me, that's okay for a few hours. But for 2 months? I always told you, I will never need you to say sorry, just do it (be sorry) quietly, and stop blaming me for things I didn't do". (sent these texts over 2 days because she decided not to talk to me)
Which is in direct relation. I am trying to break that cycle of her "demanding" apologies for things that grew out of her emotional distortions.
For saying that I received a week of silence treatment.

Of course maybe I worded things "harsh" in her view, though I had enough time to prepare the bomb in the least harming way. In my personal case I have a huge innate imaginary barrel of patience, which can be filled to it's brink, but eventually it would overflow, and that's when I'm vulnerable to enter JADE-mode. But sometimes I just can't help it, what I learned is to put things into careful wording as much as possible to me. (that's why I call it covert-JADEing )

Just yesterday she called me out of the blue and we talked for about 2 hours. (as if nothing happened) ^^ Typical indicator for a recycle to come up.

Anyways you already made the correlation between JADEing and apologizing for things you haven't done, so you know it is wrong to do. Then find a way for you two to break that cycle, as it inevitably will destroy you. I agree with allienoah, unjust apologizing does not stop anything, at best it postpones and with pwBPD it will come back and bite your arse for sure.

In that specific case, have you told her that you will always apologize if you did something wrong? If so how about letting her know that all your previous experiences are what made you the guy you are today? IMO that's clean of JAD+some Explaining and speaks volumes... .

Find the middle way, and keep walking on it, it's a fine line though


Good Luck
Gumiho

[waverider]

It's not so much an apology she needs but rather validation of her fears. Though she believes an apology is the way to go, using the black and white thinking of "I am right you are wrong". As you probably have found out this just creates a precedent and therefore an expectation.

Your apologies become an empty lip service, so thy need more convincing, the hole gets deeper along with your resentment.

How to avoid this? First, as suggested above, avoid JADE at all cost and make the topic about how she feels, and how you can make her feel less anxious/worried about any interpretations or implications of those feelings, rather than what you may, or may not, have done.

The "issue" is just a tangible thing that she is hanging an otherwise less tangible feeling on. Therapists will often ask "what comes first the thought or the feeling?". The answer is often the feeling. I feel X, it must be because of Y. We often get caught up in trying to fix Y instead of X. They are often miss diagnosing their own cause and effect pattern. In reality Y is not always the sole cause of X

[Highlander]

Hi RufusTFirefly,

I initially joined this forum site because my DH used to have BPD and before diagnosis and treatment, I can remember always saying "Sorry, sorry, sorry".  I'm aware, I am fortunate that DH embraced diagnosis and therapy and is now recovered, however, I was exposed to BPD blame games with my MIL who has unBPD.

I have apologised to her twice in my life for something I shouldn't have been blamed for and only because there was a direct risk to my DH's life (he was self harming as a result of my MIL blame game on me and I just wanted it to stop) and the next time, there was a small child's life at risk  if I didn't apologise to her (long story).

Both times,  it backfired on me.  Even though she accepted the apologies at the time, albeit, after a lot of head trips and making me beg, once lasting days (again long story).  In both cases, it enabled her to treat me worse and expect apologies for more things I didn't do.

In each case, she told other people about these 'fake' apologies, giving weight to the lies she was telling them about me, and making them conclude I was the one with the problem.  We now have NC with her, but ironically, one of the last conversations I had with her, she was blaming me of never ever apologising to her!

Those that have responded to you are onto a good thing.  Validating emotions are a more preferable way to go and once I learn't these skills with my husband, they worked, albeit, after a lot of trial and error as everyone is different, but in the case of my MIL, there were times, when she'd jump up and down like a child having a tantrum and demand an apology from me whist she was in such a rage, she wasn't listening to anything I was saying let alone when I tried to validate her emotions - that was when I felt cornered to comply, even though I knew it was only going to make the situation worse in the future.

[insideout77]

How do people here handle apologizing for things they don't feel like they need to apologize for?

I can usually end explosive episodes with my uBPD partner if I just apologize for whatever it is they're upset about, but that takes the onus off of them. It feels like the wrong thing to do, but also is so much easier than dealing with a fight that may go on for days.

To be clear, if I've made a mistake, I have no problem apologizing. Often, I'll apologize for something, but not the specific thing she's asking me to apologize for ("I'm sorry for raising my voice" in an argument where she wants me to apologize for ever having dated anybody before we met).

So how do people here handle these demands for an apology?

This is something that is very frustrating for anyone in a relationship with a BPD and I'm sorry to hear about  the stress this seems to be causing you.

Your not alone but that doesn't help you so here is a something that might work.

Challenge: The reason your BPD partner needs an apology from you is because they are are projecting their insecurity on to you. They don't have the ability to realize what they really feel and instead just express that feeling they have by accusing you of doing something wrong.

As wacky as this sounds, when you don't apologize, you are in essence (in their mind) denying that they actually feel when they seem to know they feel and it becomes at automatic trigger for rage.

Solution that won't work: As you said, "you apologize to make her happy sometimes". The reason it doesn't work is because you are owning a problem that is not yours.

She may feel something (and everyone has the right to feel anything), but that does not mean that their feeling becomes your reality.

So as you discovered when you do that, you are actually just kicking the can down the road and are likely paying for it in many ways that you may realize or even not realize like low self esteem.

Solution that can work:  :)o - Empathize and validate her feelings every time.  Put on a kind face, listen and convey to her/he in your own words that you are very sorry that she/he is feeling that way and it sounds like its really hard. (the better your empathy the more validated she/he is likely to feel).

Do Not own the problem. Do not be sorry for anything you did. Did not promise not to do it again. Be comfortable asserting your own feelings that you see it differently but again that you respect her/his feelings as well.

Example text:  "I am sorry that raising my voice causes to you get upset and it sounds like you are really frustrated".   If need be, you can add "The reason I raised my voice is from frustration I feel when we talk about my life before marriage, its in my past and as i stated in past I am not comfortable going there".  

You are owning your feelings,  you are not accusing her or projecting, rather just stating how you feel (stay away from the word YOU) and not ever own her feelings.

Bottom line: Living with and trying to balance life with a BPD partner is very hard and draining. But if you are committed to staying, there is a way. It will take a lot of patience and a lot of effort on your part as they learn the different boundaries you have established.

Remember like dealing with a Toddler every-time you let a boundary slip you are essentially starting from the beginning in your education process.  

Reality Check In a healthy relationship the conversation might go like this:  

 She "I get anxious when you raise your voice and it would mean a lot to me if you made an effort not to do it".  

You "I am sorry that you feel anxious when I raise my voice, triggering your anxiety is certainly not something I ever want to do and will endeavor to try to do it much less often".    

She "Thank you sweet, I love you"      



Good Luck and lots of HUGS

[north69]

Yep, we've all been here. I've enabled my wife's behaviour for years by apologising when I had done nothing, just to placate her and hopefully move past it.

Currently in a similar situation, almost 1 month LC.

Been told:

- You should be apologising and kissing the ground where I walk. Begging me to forgive you.



The reality is that my wife has caused our latest fallout, I've also played my part. I think a rational split of blame would be 75% her and 25% me but in the interests of maturity, responsible relationship etc, I've gone with 50/50 to my wife so as not to add fuel to the fire.

She's adamant she's not apologising but wants to hear my apology, not just an apology, a detailed breakdown of all the things I did wrong  (that makes me almost chuckle writing it!)


Plan:

1. I will apologise for my errors and expect no apology in return. Who cares, I'm not playing the blame game, I know the situation and that's what counts, need to get past this apology and blame stage.

2. If we get to number (2) this is the key. It's where we'll discuss what we're not happy with and hopefully make some changes. Here come the boundaries, my limits. And on this I'll hold firm.


So, I'll apologise again, technically enabling her - but part of the bigger plan. To get to point  (2) which is where I set my boundaries.

At least that's the idea... .these things don't tend to work out as planned.

[BowlOfPetunias]

I used to give in a lot.  She would start a fight, and then demand that we BOTH apologize.  This was a form of blame shifting.

A couple of years ago, she went on a long rage against me in front of the kids while we driving back from vacation.  The kids had been fighting and that got her angry.  Then she took it out on me and started yelling about how I wanted to go to a restaurant that we could not afford.  The problem, of course, was that she was the one who suggested going to the restaurant in the first place.  To be honest, I don't think I even registered what the name of the place was.  Nonetheless, she repeatedly insisted that I apologize for "getting defensive" when she unexpectedly started yelling at me for something I did not do.

I refused to apologize for this and explained to her that as a victim of bullying I had been forced to apologize to the bullies who beat me up in locker rooms because the school administration assumed that we both must be guilty.  So I was essentially forced to apologize for blocking their fist with my face.  Furthermore, the bullies escalated to physical abuse because I would not accept their verbal abuse--in other words, because I exercised my right to defend myself.  I also explained how my father and grandmother often blamed me for my sister's outrageous (very BPD) behavior on the grounds that all kids must be rotten.  I stated I would not apologize for defending myself when attacked.

The flip side of this problem is when she ignores my apologies when I acknowledge something I did wrong and keeps hammering away and saying that she does not want an apology--she wants something else, like "being on the same page."  For example, it is not enough that I apologize after allowing my son to have his smart phone right before bed.  Instead, she goes over and over the incident stating that "we have to be on the same page."  In other words, changing my behavior is not enough.  I need to change what I think.  Besides being abusive, this is also impossible to satisfy.  How could I possibly convince her of what is going on inside my head?  I recognized that I should have given him the phone and apologized.  But I still might be thinking that it was OK.  Even if I tell her that I agree with her 100 percent, how can she know that I REALLY agree with her?  Maybe I am just saying it while secretly thinking I was right to give him the phone.  A related problem, of course, is that BPDs believe they can read your mind--and often become convinced that you are thinking something completely different that what you are really thinking.  I might be apologizing, but she can read my mind to see that we are not "on the same page."  Again, it is impossible to "prove" what is really going on inside my head.

[insideout77]

I used to give in a lot.  She would start a fight, and then demand that we BOTH apologize.  This was a form of blame shifting.

A couple of years ago, she went on a long rage against me in front of the kids while we driving back from vacation.  The kids had been fighting and that got her angry.  Then she took it out on me and started yelling about how I wanted to go to a restaurant that we could not afford.  The problem, of course, was that she was the one who suggested going to the restaurant in the first place.  To be honest, I don't think I even registered what the name of the place was.  Nonetheless, she repeatedly insisted that I apologize for "getting defensive" when she unexpectedly started yelling at me for something I did not do.


The flip side of this problem is when she ignores my apologies when I acknowledge something I did wrong and keeps hammering away and saying that she does not want an apology--she wants something else, like "being on the same page." 

Your post brings me back 3 years. You are right on target and I lived the same things with almost the exact same words.   

I was always in trouble for "getting defensive" and she just wanted to be "on the same page"

she also want to be to act often like we are in a "normal relationship"  while i guess having no clue that we are anything but normal.     

[MrRight]

Your post brings me back 3 years. You are right on target and I lived the same things with almost the exact same words.   

I was always in trouble for "getting defensive" and she just wanted to be "on the same page"

she also want to be to act often like we are in a "normal relationship"  while i guess having no clue that we are anything but normal.     

Isnt that the strangest thing?
I am my wife's first - so maybe she thinks that all relationships are like this. But she was not my first by any means - and I never experienced anything like this before.

[MrRight]

I used to give in a lot.  She would start a fight, and then demand that we BOTH apologize.  This was a form of blame shifting.

A couple of years ago, she went on a long rage against me in front of the kids while we driving back from vacation.  The kids had been fighting and that got her angry.  Then she took it out on me and started yelling about how I wanted to go to a restaurant that we could not afford.  The problem, of course, was that she was the one who suggested going to the restaurant in the first place.  To be honest, I don't think I even registered what the name of the place was.  Nonetheless, she repeatedly insisted that I apologize for "getting defensive" when she unexpectedly started yelling at me for something I did not do.

I refused to apologize for this and explained to her that as a victim of bullying I had been forced to apologize to the bullies who beat me up in locker rooms because the school administration assumed that we both must be guilty.  So I was essentially forced to apologize for blocking their fist with my face.  Furthermore, the bullies escalated to physical abuse because I would not accept their verbal abuse--in other words, because I exercised my right to defend myself.  I also explained how my father and grandmother often blamed me for my sister's outrageous (very BPD) behavior on the grounds that all kids must be rotten.  I stated I would not apologize for defending myself when attacked.

The flip side of this problem is when she ignores my apologies when I acknowledge something I did wrong and keeps hammering away and saying that she does not want an apology--she wants something else, like "being on the same page."  For example, it is not enough that I apologize after allowing my son to have his smart phone right before bed.  Instead, she goes over and over the incident stating that "we have to be on the same page."  In other words, changing my behavior is not enough.  I need to change what I think.  Besides being abusive, this is also impossible to satisfy.  How could I possibly convince her of what is going on inside my head?  I recognized that I should have given him the phone and apologized.  But I still might be thinking that it was OK.  Even if I tell her that I agree with her 100 percent, how can she know that I REALLY agree with her?  Maybe I am just saying it while secretly thinking I was right to give him the phone.  A related problem, of course, is that BPDs believe they can read your mind--and often become convinced that you are thinking something completely different that what you are really thinking.  I might be apologizing, but she can read my mind to see that we are not "on the same page."  Again, it is impossible to "prove" what is really going on inside my head.

I often congratulate myself that inside my head is the one place that she cannot touch - yet she still tells me to look at myself in the mirror to understand what I am - and then bring about long lasting changes.

It would be laughable if it wasnt happening to me.

[badknees1]

yeah I always have to be ready to apologize at any time. Some people are good at that without feeling bad about themselves. I have to use certain scripts so I am not adlibbing my apology from the gut, that always goes bad. But it can at least tame the rage a little so things will not escalate. I find I have to always be on top of my emotions, feelings etc. I am not built that way though so it's an ongoing struggle if one has made a commitment to staying in such a relationship yet has a sensitive easily bruised ego. But I do think there are apology skills that can help so I try them. 

[waverider]

  Again, it is impossible to "prove" what is really going on inside my head.

You dont have to, even though she is making you try, just so she can prove you wrong.

It is a classic trick to find out what someone is thinking. Rather than just asking, they make a worse case accusation prompting you to volunteer a defence, while establishing a pecking order from the get go. You end up stepping right into JADE before you know it. Its an ambush