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whitebackatcha
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« on: August 21, 2017, 08:19:11 PM »

Relationship with my long distance exBPDgf ended unofficially last October (I've known her several years now). I've gotten casual contact from her several times since then. Recently, I had reason to believe she was doing better in life, and I felt emboldened to like a couple of her photos from an event, because I was happy for her. She messaged me almost immediately, drunk. She was in a mood that she is in sometimes, where I can ask her anything and she doesn't get mad. She told me something hurtful, and I decided to say I was hurt, because I am tired of not standing up for myself with her. It turned into me asking her about the relationship, and her feelings and motivations about it all. She was providing answers, so I didn't want to lose my opportunity.

She was very calm, as was I. It was almost all fairly direct, although it's possible I made statements that showed my feelings, which triggered her on some level. But she didn't act angry at all. She told me she had barely considered what we had a relationship most of the time, even when we were talking. She said she loved me sometimes, but that she lied about the intensity of it, because she liked my attention. She said she never loved me how I mean it when I say it. She said she considered it fair, because I received attention in return. She said she never wanted to sleep with me, but did it out of obligation because I had visited her. I asked her about why she then did certain things, which seemed like an indication of caring, and she said she didn't have an answer that would satisfy me. She said a few times that she just didn't know, either. I asked her why she was finally being honest about all of this now, and she said she has been in therapy. I didn't ask her if she had discussed BPD with her therapist, but it sounded like she is very open with them, and they are very direct and aware about her issues. She said the therapist new all about me, and that when I asked for an apology after a recent contact, the therapist was the reason she decided to give it. She said nobody has what she needs to be happy with them long-term, and that she is okay with that. I told her it was wrong for her to lie to me, and she said yes, and to everyone else she lies to as well. She said everything she ever gave me, she gave because that's just what she does, not out of love for me, other than one thing two years ago. I asked if she ever did anything out of love, and she mentioned one specific series of actions, but nothing else. She said she used to be nice when we got back together because it was expected, and she stopped because it was fake and she couldn't keep up appearances. She said everyone annoys her all the time (which I knew).

So it all sounds so calm and legitimate. Is it still splitting if they're calm when they say it, and can calmly give examples of when it actually was real? There were so many times she got triggered, or clearly cared how I felt about her or things she did, and I always assumed it was in part because she wanted me to like her, because she liked me. Now I'm wondering if it really was simply the shame and abandonment triggering and nothing else. She told me things she didn't tell other people. I was her person. She wasn't open with other people, but she was open with me. She is having a lot of relationships right now, but said she didn't when we were together because we were a thing (I do believe this). Why do that if you don't care about the person? Why do that if I wasn't special?

The next day, I decided to ask her if she had heard of psychological splitting, and suggested she look into it. She said she knew about it. However she actually feels about me, she is clearly at least getting good information and support from her therapist. She never, EVER was open to talking about psychological stuff, ESPECIALLY labels, before. EVER. She ended the relationship more than once because she felt I was negatively labeling her, even when I denied it. It is a massive change.
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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2017, 01:30:30 PM »

as an outsider reading this, i suspect that what you heard may be an accurate description in retrospect.

its a bit like someone who gets in a relationship, falls in love, looks back and decides "it wasnt really love". it doesnt mean they didnt feel strongly at the time, or that they were fooling the person. id hate for you to get the impression that you were just a used sucker.

i had an ex tell me in an angry moment that she never really liked me. this was obviously not true, as she would confirm in a less angry state, but there was probably a kernel of truth there, from a retrospective point of view.

i dont think this has to do with splitting. splitting is characterized by seeing another person (or object, or past event) as all good or all bad. it sounds like your ex is in a place of calm, and the discussion less loaded, that shes able to give a sense of closure and insight, though i would take it with a grain of salt.
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whitebackatcha
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2017, 02:10:38 PM »

as an outsider reading this, i suspect that what you heard may be an accurate description in retrospect.

I appreciate your feedback. This is obviously all very emotional for me, and I have a vested interest in it not being true. I am at a place in my life where I don't want to comfort myself with falsehoods, though, which was why I was finally willing to ask her these things.

A lot of what she says can fit with my impressions of things over the years. One issue that doesn't is her version of my visit. If she was not involved emotionally, but was just being her neutral self, I don't understand why she would tell me later that she wanted me to move out to live with her. I asked her this, and she said it sounded nice to "have a companion." She tires of most people quickly, why would she say this (and I certainly never mentioned it)? She was also very depressed after I went home, but she says she doesn't remember being depressed more than usual during that season. She told me once then though that she "didn't bother having the feeling of missing me, because there was no point," after a period of what appeared to be mourning. Why say this?

I do feel used. She told me she loved me, and now says it was largely a lie. I'm an empath. I use my intuition to read people all the time. I'm often scarily accurate. I don't understand how I could miss this. I feel like I had a relationship with a picture in a magazine, but told myself it was real.
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whitebackatcha
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2017, 02:24:46 PM »

Why has she sent me things periodically? She said there was no emotion behind it, that it was like a default for her. But when I finally reciprocate by liking a post, she messaged me almost immediately, twice over several hours (before I responded). She said she missed a fun thing we used to do. But why immediately? Narc supply?
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2017, 02:33:05 PM »

I feel like I had a relationship with a picture in a magazine, but told myself it was real.

you had a relationship with a person not necessarily consistent in their impressions and memories, who was and is prone to over expressing themselves, and feels what they feel intensely in the moment.

ive always thought that it made more sense that my relationship was very real - after all, i, like you, was there and experienced it - but that it was not stable. the foundation that makes healthy long term relationship was never there in my relationship, most of our relationships.

there are, of course, fantastical elements to our relationships. the over expressions (the idealization and devaluation), for example, are over expressions. people do not generally use each other as means for romantic ends.

example:

She said she loved me sometimes, but that she lied about the intensity of it, because she liked my attention.

she is learning about herself in therapy, and part of learning about herself likely involves learning that she is prone to over expressing herself. in retrospect, she realizes that it was over the top, and elements of what drove it. that explanation probably makes more sense and aligns with your perspective and experience than "i lied about loving you so youd give me attention". its not the way people consciously operate. it might approach how some people see themselves in retrospect.

look at it this way: there are multiple perspectives. there is yours and hers. there is the perspective you had at the time, the perspective you had in the aftermath, and the perspective you have now. there is the perspective she had at the time, the perspective she had in the aftermath, and the perspective she has now. and then there is an outsider, third person perspective. all of these perspectives are versions of, or kernels of the truth. youre getting one kernel of truth in a bigger picture, and youre seeing where there is reasonable conflict, as well as things that make sense in retrospect. i would take and keep what adds up - not just necessarily what is comforting, or painful.
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     and I think it's gonna be all right; yeah; the worst is over now; the mornin' sun is shinin' like a red rubber ball…
whitebackatcha
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2017, 03:17:06 PM »

look at it this way: there are multiple perspectives. there is yours and hers. there is the perspective you had at the time, the perspective you had in the aftermath, and the perspective you have now. there is the perspective she had at the time, the perspective she had in the aftermath, and the perspective she has now. and then there is an outsider, third person perspective. all of these perspectives are versions of, or kernels of the truth. youre getting one kernel of truth in a bigger picture, and youre seeing where there is reasonable conflict, as well as things that make sense in retrospect. i would take and keep what adds up - not just necessarily what is comforting, or painful.

Everything you are saying makes sense. I wish it made it not hurt, but that is life. I realized I was in love with her almost three and a half years ago, and have spent that entire time, even when she wasn't talking to me, hoping I would finally be good.enough to make her stay, and make her stop getting mad at me all the time. And I don't even know how to not be in that waiting period, because it's just my life. And I know I have to, but it's a death. A death of hope, of what I wanted my future to be, of who I believed she was deep down. She was my first love. I didn't think I could fall in love, but then did, just at two or three times the age most people do.

Why has she sent me things periodically? She said there was no emotion behind it, that it was like a default for her. But when I finally reciprocate by liking a post, she messaged me almost immediately, twice over several hours (before I responded). She said she missed a fun thing we used to do. But why immediately? Narc supply?
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« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2017, 07:01:20 AM »

Why has she sent me things periodically? She said there was no emotion behind it, that it was like a default for her.

what kind of things has she sent?
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whitebackatcha
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« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2017, 12:31:04 PM »

what kind of things has she sent?

Nothing deep. Asking if she could share a video or meme that she thought I would like. Cookies she found that I had been looking for two years ago and hadn't found. A birthday, Christmas, and Valentine card, neither mushy or anything. For the valentine, she said she was making a bunch and thought I would like one, too. She seems to do these things every two months or so. I respond in a friendly way, but don't ask her questions to continue the conversation, and she doesn't ask or offer anything further. This conversation was the first real one, and was so immediate, it felt significant.
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« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2017, 12:33:28 PM »

okay. it sounds to me like she thinks of you fondly and reaches out from time to time.

what do you think? how do you feel about it?
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whitebackatcha
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« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2017, 07:49:04 PM »

okay. it sounds to me like she thinks of you fondly and reaches out from time to time.

what do you think? how do you feel about it?

I feel confused how she could go from wanting to be "very close friends" last summer after breaking up with me (which occurred after I told her that saying she didn't want to talk to me anymore was no longer an acceptable way to deal with conflict, so it felt like a way around that) to this, never mind everything else we went through. It would be consistent with much of it being a lie, though.

That, of course, makes me sad. I had hoped she was wanting to start talking again because she missed me.
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babyducks
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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 05:16:20 PM »

She said she loved me sometimes, but that she lied about the intensity of it, because she liked my attention. She said she never loved me how I mean it when I say it.

nice thread white... .   

what I experienced with my partner, and I only really grasped in hindsight, was that my partner felt if she wasn't getting direct personal attention she didn't exist.  her sense of self, her self image was so fragile if she wasn't interacting with some one she felt like a "ghost".

I have a different take on 'never loved you how you mean it'.   I think she is acknowledging that her definition of love and your definition are inherently different.

I asked her about why she then did certain things, which seemed like an indication of caring, and she said she didn't have an answer that would satisfy me. ... .She said nobody has what she needs to be happy with them long-term, and that she is okay with that.

I've been told by some one who had the reason to know, that people with traits of this illness want to be loved in the way that a mother would love a young child.   All encompassing, unconditional, without boundaries.    There is a lot of grey in what she said.   a lot of room for interpretation.

I think OR is correct,  a lot of what she told you is in retrospect, trying to find explanations for things now that didn't make sense then.   I'm not sure I would call it a lie necessarily.    it sounds to me perhaps more like confused muddlings.

and I wonder if you are given yourself enough credit.  She is there talking to you.   Sharing with you at a level she has never really shared before.   In my book clearly that means something.
 

'ducks
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whitebackatcha
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« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 03:08:58 AM »

I've been told by some one who had the reason to know, that people with traits of this illness want to be loved in the way that a mother would love a young child.   All encompassing, unconditional, without boundaries.    There is a lot of grey in what she said.   a lot of room for interpretation.

I think OR is correct,  a lot of what she told you is in retrospect, trying to find explanations for things now that didn't make sense then.   I'm not sure I would call it a lie necessarily.    it sounds to me perhaps more like confused muddlings.

and I wonder if you are given yourself enough credit.  She is there talking to you.   Sharing with you at a level she has never really shared before.   In my book clearly that means something.

I feel like I loved her that way, and that it made her keep coming back, but also made her often not see me as a serious prospect. But then I think that I wouldn't want to be mean or distant to hook someone.

I don't know. She said she lied. It could be trying to make sense of things. It is painful to have the past questioned, regardless. I know I'm getting so much more closure than a lot of people here, but it's still difficult.

I'm so angry that I was patient, loving, and understanding of her issues for over three years, yet she gets therapy after breaking up with me, and only shows improvement after not talking to me for almost a year. I put in the time and energy, but some other jerk gets to be with the healthier her. I'm so angry that she was the one with serious issues, yet she moved on while I'm still not over it. I know my role in all of this, and that my own issues are what kept me with someone like this. It's still really hurtful.
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babyducks
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« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2017, 04:51:56 AM »

I'm so angry that I was patient, loving, and understanding of her issues for over three years, yet she gets therapy after breaking up with me, and only shows improvement after not talking to me for almost a year. I put in the time and energy, but some other jerk gets to be with the healthier her. I'm so angry that she was the one with serious issues, yet she moved on while I'm still not over it. I know my role in all of this, and that my own issues are what kept me with someone like this. It's still really hurtful.

oh my goodness yes.    that weird dichotomy is so hard to take.    my ex is out and about, and by all appearances having a wonderful time and is completely over our relationship,    while I am still struggling with things.

it is hurtful.   I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

my ex is still on the periphery of my life, her choice not mine,... and the face she shows the world is everything is great, everything is good.   I got taken in by that before.   It looks very real.

I'm not so good at putting a better face on things.   my insides tend to match my outsides and vice versa.

I wish I could get to angry... .I think it might help me if I could express it.   I think some anger, a reasonable amount of anger might be a good thing... .   the emotions of the relationship burning off.

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whitebackatcha
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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2017, 04:48:25 PM »

it is hurtful.   I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

my ex is still on the periphery of my life, her choice not mine,... and the face she shows the world is everything is great, everything is good.   I got taken in by that before.   It looks very real.

I'm not so good at putting a better face on things.   my insides tend to match my outsides and vice versa.

I wish I could get to angry... .I think it might help me if I could express it.   I think some anger, a reasonable amount of anger might be a good thing... .   the emotions of the relationship burning off.



Oh, I know you weren't invalidating my feelings. I just don't want to be the person who acts like their choices had nothing to do with why they were in a bad relationship. It's really difficult, bease part of me knew better, so I feel like I almost don't have the right to be hurt or upset. I lost track of how many times she discarded me. I've always known she might not love me like I loved her. Wasn't this bound to happen? So I feel foolish.

Im.sorry you're relationship didn't work out. I wasn't on the boards for awhile, and missed that announcement. I was really rooting for you.

I do know that she presents a better self. I don't know. She was just so calm and self-aware when we talked. I don't know how the conversation would have gone if she hadn't been intoxicated.

I'm angry because she broke me. I'm angry at everyone. I feel like she killed the naive, hopeful, loving person that I used to be. Although that person was delusional, so in that sense, it's growth? But I've never loved anyone like I loved her, not even close. I put my whole self into the relationship, hoping I would be good enough for her someday, and that never happened. It's anger or crying, and crying does no good because it isn't going to make her choose me, so screw that.
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babyducks
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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2017, 06:59:34 PM »

I feel much the same as you.   The other day I said to someone that this experience changed my emotional structure.    It was probably somebody on here.   To be sure there are parts of me that feel like I have grown into a better person.    There are also  parts of me that feel irreparably broken.  Nothing has been the same since my r/s.   And in some ways I feel like a different person trying to return to the life I used to have before her.

Do you know Brene Brown?   She said this in 'Rising Strong'.

"This change often brings a deep sense of loss.   During the process of rising (from a fall) we sometimes find ourselves homesick for a place that no longer exists.   We want to go back to that moment before we walked into the arena but there is nowhere to go back to.   What makes this more difficult is that now we have a new level of awareness about what it means to be brave.   We can't fake it anymore.   We know when we're showing up and when we're hiding out, when we are living our values and when we are not."

I'm not angry yet.    at least I don't think so.    I think I am still at kind of lost and befuddled.   I understand exactly what you mean though... .I put everything I had into my relationship.   and for a while things were going pretty well.     and we had to the potential to make things work.   to have that potential, that option to have a future, to succeed, destroyed was like the death of hope for me.    It's been a while since she blew up the relationship and I still kind of feel like I am just going through the motions of living.
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