surviving the aftermath of daring to speak some truth

[grandmag]

   In an earlier post, I shared how I dared to say to my BPD dil :He needs professional help"... .referring to my youngest grandchild. Am still reeling about her immediate response "You just hurt my feelings!"

   Then, comes the pay-back. At least now I know to expect it, it is not as much of a surprise as it used to be. This time, no contact with grandkids for over a week and a half, not even by phone. My son, who "must" defend the "injured wife" refusing to listen to something about me that I believed he would want to know, saying "If it isn't about me, then I don't want to hear it!"  Having to text dil, hearing the snide attitude even in a text.

   Sometimes, it seems the love between my son and I has been warped by his being married to a woman with BPD. Everything goes through a filter, hers. He no longer seems able to even say he would like to do something he has enjoyed with me, without making sure it is ok with her. He sounds like her, even uses her words, her phrases. He rarely can be called in the evening while at home. He often reaches me while in the car, on the way home from work, alone. It is hard enough to try to have any kind of relationship with her, let alone having my son act like her too. I am angry about that. I resent it too.

   At least last week my counselor was very happy I spoke up about the youngest needing help. Neither one of us could believe her response, but then again... .it figures.

   Am I becoming jaded, hardened by 20 years of this, 13 of them involving my grandchildren?

   Finally, tomorrow, "the boys"... .both grandsons and my son... .are coming for a dinner/visit. We'll see.


Remembering simpler, happier times... .Grandmag

[Notwendy]

Sometimes, it seems the love between my son and I has been warped by his being married to a woman with BPD. Everything goes through a filter, hers. He no longer seems able to even say he would like to do something he has enjoyed with me, without making sure it is ok with her. He sounds like her, even uses her words, her phrases. He rarely can be called in the evening while at home. He often reaches me while in the car, on the way home from work, alone. It is hard enough to try to have any kind of relationship with her, let alone having my son act like her too. I am angry about that. I resent it too.

I could have written these same words about my father. I could not have imagined that someone would have the power to change the parent- child bond, but after I experienced this, I believe it can happen. I am a parent myself- and know the kind of love a parent feels for a child. In an emotionally healthy marriage- the grown child is bonded to a spouse but there is room for that grown child to love their parents and their children. There wasn't room for that in the marriage between my parents. My mother's wishes were the center of my FOO.

While you are focusing on the issues that your DIL has, and I also focused on my mother as the problem, I had to reconcile my father's role in this. My BPD mother had this power over him because he allowed her to. By doing so, he went against his own value system, his own boundaries and at some level, I believe he knew this. But he didn't seem to be able to maintain his own stand and boundaries with her. I have to believe my father loved his children and his parents, but somehow my mother's wishes took priority and he went along with it. It seems your son is doing that too.

Without boundaries, my parents became one person. If I spoke to my father, she listened in on the phone, or he reported what I said to her. They seemed to say the same things, be of one mind. It makes sense- she had his attention 24/7. I used to see him as some sort of victim of her persuasion. The harder part to understand was that he allowed it.

You have got the pattern down. Speak the truth, be "punished". That was my childhood and experience as an adult in my FOO. To have a relationship with my father of any sorts, I had to go along with the illusion that all was fine with my mother. But when she started her behaviors with my own children, I put my foot down. There was no way I would allow her to treat them the way she treated me.

This sounds rather pessimistic, but the price of speaking the truth, maintaining boundaries which angers the pwBPD may also be the cost of the relationship with the people enmeshed with them. Yes, I agree with the counselor to be authentic, but you are also walking a fine line here- with your son and your grandchildren. One of the reasons I do not speak too much about anything to my mother is that- it doesn't work to get the results I want. If I thought she'd at least hear me, I'd do it, but it sends her into victim mode. I compare taking to my mother to the term "pissing into the wind". It all comes back at to you.  

IMHO, as someone who is grateful for the time spent with my father's FOO, the best thing you can do for the grandkids is spend time with them. Your son chose to be enmeshed with his wife, but the grandkids don't have that choice and they are dealing with the consequences of your son's decision. If you ever did suspect physical abuse or neglect - you can call child protective services. If the kids act out in school- the school system will deal with it.

Your son made a decision that has a high emotional cost to him too. I am pretty sure his wife is difficult with him too. For however my mother treated me, I observed worse for my father. If it was every in my power to help him - I would have done it, but it wasn't in my power to do so. I know it is difficult to see your son in this situation.

[madeline7]

I have had a very similar experience to Not Wendy. My Dad passed away almost 2 years ago, and he was very enmeshed and enabled my Mom's behavior over the years. At times, he said to me and my siblings that her "problem" was in her head, that she was emotionally "not right". But most times, he just mirrored her moods and reinforced her maladaptive behaviors. Throughout the years, I had often said to my siblings that he created a monster by going along with her and her outrageous demands. Now he is gone, she is old and unable to cope with being a widow, my siblings and I no longer have a good relationship due to the dysfunction. I do have more perspective and control over setting healthier boundaries, but it is a very challenging dynamic. Basically I put up with my Mom to have a relationship with my Dad, and I bet I would put up with a dysfunctional DIL or SIL in order to have contact with my grandchildren. But until I am in the situation myself, I do not know what I would do, but getting more clear with therapy and support from this site is helpful in guiding our thoughts and actions. I wish you peace.

[Living Life]

madeline7, I so relate to your story. My father was the only one who could somewhat control my uBPD mother's crazy thought processes. He died 7 years ago. She had no one to moderate her thoughts; my SIL, in trying to help, bought into her craziness. To make the long, sad story very short, my mother finally passed away in January. My brother was then caught in the middle of his wife and myself; I lost. The dysfunction has come down to him; my previously reasonable brother became my mother, with her distorted versions of truth, horrible name calling, and rage directed at me. I handled my mother through setting some boundaries and their subsequent rages, and LC. I found this board after all my decisions had been made and followed up on; I discovered there is a name associated with all the crazy behavior, BPD. Knowing what I do now, I realize  I could have handled things better, but the outcome may have still ended up the same: NC with my brother. We may work things out later on, but perhaps not. I refuse to be the recipient of "hateful, spiteful, vindictive, opportunist", etc, as well as being accused of stealing some of my mother's 'treasures.' I feel better about myself than all that; I am not that person. Reasoning and refuting didn't work, so I felt NC was my only option to protect myself. I have a long term marriage, friends, no kids, but really good relationships with his adult children. So, my life is good. This is just not what I expected in January. There was little mourning of my mother, but a real grieving process over the unexpected loss of my only sibling. Each day is a better day, and I truly have an otherwise wonderful life.

[grandmag]

to notwendy:
   
   thank you for responding and yes to everything you said. Several years ago, 4 people reported my dil to child protective services (none of them me). She told the kids that if they "told on" her, the people would take them away and they would never see their parents again. (The kids told me this) She of course, lied all the way through it, and no action was taken.Except, she assumed that I was the one who reported, and she denied any access to the boys from me, for six weeks. My son even came to me and said the older boy was crying himself to sleep every night, which BOTHERED HER so she was dosing him with chamomile tea. All I said to my son was, "Well, what did you expect?"

   When the six weeks was up, they all came here, on my b'day, without calling ahead. Dil tossed a b'day card in my lap, saying :I didn't want to be a completely cold hearted b____ so here!"   My son said he wanted to take me out o dinner... .but after naming at least 8 restaurants... .we didn't go. Dil didn't want any of the restaurants.

   Later, the older grandson told me he wished he had told the truth to the cps investigator. He asked me (at age 9) how he could get a job. He said he had to make some money so he could move out of home!

   As for the dinner visit tonight with son and both boys, it was lousy. My son had to leave for a bit, left the boys here. They told me then that he had been saying things to them in the car on the way here, to turn them against me. The y
ounger one (8) said he is confused and doesn't know who to believe. While he was here, my son put me down and tried to find fault with just about everything I said. He even complained about the food, and he loves my cooking. I found myself saying "This is uncalled for" I don't feel like I should be expected to just be silent!

   The older boy stayed on my computer. I played outside with the younger one. He has severe eating issues, and seldom eats anything any more.This has been going on for years. tonight, Daddy yelled at him ordered him to eat if he wanted to live, then left for a bit.

   So I told him I would like to play with him outside, but he needed to fuel his body with food first. He ate all of the fish filet, 2/3 of his peas, and one bite of homemade hash browns. He didn't want that potato but he wanted to play outside. I said "Who is proud of you?" He grinned and said "Me, grandma!" and gave me a hug. When daddy came back, he showed his plate to him. He said I am proud of me daddy, are you?" The response was :Huh. Time to go home.

   The older boy didn't say much at all, but he told me he will be playing in a special concert this weekend at the Art Museum, and would I come? Daddy had to work and "Mommy will probably just drop me off"

   I have swallowed a lot to be able to be there for all 3 of my grandkids, especially the boys (granddaughter lives out of town with her mother). I have taken a lot of sick stuff and abuse, myself. I no longer can believe this helps my grandkids, if the bonded blended and bullying parents are stepping up a campaign to turn the kids against me! I get it, the dil has to have absolute "loyalty" or die, but that is so sick, and the truth so distorted and only feeds her disorder. Demanding that, OR ELSE (or else what?) harms my son and my grandkids.

   I don't demand loyalty, only that actions speak louder than words.

   I really am tired of the lies, the drama, the subtle threats, the manipulations, the lies... .

   I am tired of being the fix-it person for my grandkids. I do not have enough band-aids to fix their wounded hearts, bodies, and souls. My ears bleed when they tell me truths about their lives. There are not enough tears for the sight of the gaping holes in their lives wherein lies all their unmet needs and wounded selves.

   I do not know if I can go on being an oasis for them much longer, especially considering all the abuses I have to take to give them... .me. In December, it will be 13 years of all this with the kids. It started the day the oldest was born. And I assisted with his delivery, in the delivery room. I was the 2nd person to hold him, after the APGAR tests were done.

   I was raised with a firm belief in a loving, forgiving, merciful, just God. My faith has been shaken, to say the least.
When I pray for these kids now, it starts with "Are You listening?" ":)o you really care?"

  I do not know how yet, but something HAS to change. None of us deserve to be at the mercy of one very twisted person.

[Notwendy]

Grandmag- this is heartbreaking.

I am glad you are in therapy. No you do not have the obligation to tolerate abuse and be the fix it person. It seems that your son is also contributing to the issue by saying things to the grandchildren.

I am so sorry he has chosen this situation and seems to be a part in it. I am also glad others have contacted CPS about the children.

I learned in co-dependency work that self care is important- we have the right to choose to take care of ourselves. It is sad that the children are in this situation. However, your obligation is to take care of you- do what you can but not at the expense of your mental health.

With my parents' situation - my father was seriously ill. If I visited to help him, it meant tolerating verbal abuse from my mother, and also from him if he was angry. The situation is not the same as yours, but the dilemma is- if you help- then the situation is abusive. If you don't help, then you are the one they blame for not being there. For me, I got to the point where I realized I had to make a choice- my own sanity, or to be their doormat. I chose my own sanity. I think the consequence was the relationship with my father.

It was easy for me to identify my mother's part in this. She was the one who had the disorder. The harder part was reconciling my father's part in this. For you, it is your son. I had to reconcile that he allowed and enabled my mother's behavior.

Is God listening out for the children? For me, I never doubted that. If we accept the belief that God created those children and that they have a purpose and a destiny and a relationship with God, then God is listening even if it doesn't seem to make sense at the moment. As a child, the idea of God as a loving parent was a comfort to me. It was as an adult with co-dependency traits that I had to learn that God made me with a purpose and that purpose did not include tolerating abuse in order to be accepted or loved by my parents. A local domestic abuse shelter was selling T shirts a while back that said "Love doesn't hurt". That made me think. I had started to set boundaries with my mother and my father was furious. He said " I want us to be a happy family again".

Happy? who was happy? They weren't but things between us were better when I was a doormat- and people pleaser. Happy? What's happy about tolerating abuse? I realized that their idea of happy family didn't consider whether or not I was happy. I realized that I didn't have to accept abuse. Love doesn't hurt. But accepting abuse is hurting ourselves.

I mentioned that my father's family made a difference for me, but their situation was different. They lived a distance away, so my parents sent us to stay with them. My mother rarely came along and my father mostly stayed with her. She and my father's FOO disliked each other so they tended to avoid each other. My grandparents had help from extended family as well. I don't think the situation was abusive to them.

Take care of yourself. If you need to take a break, not be always available to patch up the mess your son and DIL have made- then do it. It isn't easy. I wish I could have helped my father more, but the situation involved verbal abuse. You don't have to tolerate it. Love doesn't hurt.

[Notwendy]

madeline 7- we do have similar situations. My father did create a situation where my mother could behave like a spoiled toddler and get her way.

We feared she wouldn't manage on her own, but he did leave her enough money ( if she doesn't abuse it) to live independently. She says her friends and FOO think we are terrible children for not being around more and helping more but trying to help her becomes drama and emotional abuse. One problem is that she got to be a toddler in charge and we are adults and not in charge, and she tries to order us around. We don't indulge her because it isn't good for her. ( or us).

One lesson I learned in co-dependency work is that it is actually a disservice to people to emotionally caretake them. It doesn't allow them the chance to manage their own feelings and become emotionally mature if it is possible.

Just like a child will protest the boundaries, my mother is facing a change she didn't expect. I have boundaries and the tactics she uses to get around them don't work. She may disregulate but I stay calm. Ironically she treats me better now. I have a sibling who has not done this and the dynamics between them are drama and verbal abuse. He is catching on though.

They may not start the change, but we can. They don't like boundaries, but just like kids may not like them, the boundaries are good for them. A kid may throw a tantrum when he doesn't get a cookie, but the parent knows that he needs to eat his dinner first and being firm is what is best. I try to keep this in mind when dealing with my mother, even if she isn't happy with it. I don't want to be cruel to her- I do treat her kindly, but I have to do what I think is best for both of us.

[Faith2014]

Grandmag - I'm so sorry to hear this.  Know that you are doing the right thing by being there for your grandkids.  They obviously don't believe what they hear from their parents.  Being their rock is so important.  I wish I could give you a long hug.

[Panshekay]

I can certainly relate Grandmag. Fortunately our son who I have always been extremely close to figured it out. I remember my grandsons first Easter.  Our son had dropped his 5 yo step daughter and his son who was only 6 month old by our house. I had my new daughter in law to be with me, so we decided to color Easter eggs. My SGD is very creative and loved coloring the eggs. While she was coloring them I thought... .ugh, I better have the baby do an egg as well or my DIL will say something.  So we help him color one the best we could. Our son is a very kind thoughtful man so I was shocked when he came to pick up the kids and I showed him the eggs they had colored. He seemed irritated and said I did that on purpose, I took that away from his wife, she could NEVER color his very first Easter egg with him... .I was so taken back by that and I said, so don't tell her... .and he used a movie quote "it doesn't matter if she knows or not, I know".  Within 2 weeks later they moved 175 miles away... .and yes that was the speed up system. Our Grandson is now just about 7 years old and they have been separated, trying to divorce for just about 4 years. But we are still living in hell with her, I have learned it's never over.

[Notwendy]

I'm glad your son figured it out. I remain amazed at these dynamics. But I think for these relationships, the person married to the pwBPD has to figure it out on their own. Trying to intervene gets you on the drama triangle.

The response to the Easter egg is so sad, but it was indicative of a larger issue with your son and his wife.

[Panshekay]

Not Wendy, so very true... .when I tell our son the things that he said in the past now he is horrified. What it comes down to is what I call "feeding the monster". I knew when he said those things he was trying to survive his own abuse from her... .I knew that wasn't something that he truly believed... .God gave me the strength to ride it out. I often look back and wonder how I made it through that time. During that same period of time I also had cancer, it was his wife's thoughts that I made it up and was just saying I had cancer so I could get people to feel sorry for me, and he told me that!  Our son was always so kind and close to us, this just goes to show you how convincing and manipulating these people can be.  Obviously I have been our sons biggest supporter during the last 4 years.  I will be forever grateful that he did wake up although his journey in hell continues just trying to divorce.  When I read the stories from others who don't have children but want to work it out with a BPD spouse I have such a hard time not saying RUN... .you are free... .run as fast as you can. :-(

[Notwendy]

It's interesting that your son has realized that the things he said to you were not things he believed. My father said things to me that I hope he didn't mean. My mother says these things all the time- that I was used to- but she somehow got him to say them too. I was a Daddy's girl and idolized him.

I also wondered if he didn't have some kind of Stockholm syndrome. I know that whatever she did or said to me , she did it to him too, probably worse.

I  know how strong that parent- child bond is. Yet, my BPD mother was able to break it. My mother is convincing and manipulative as well. It astounds me that they have this kind of power. I can't imagine doing that- it's a level of mental disturbance that I can not understand.

Thank God you got through this. It sounds like a horrible time and I am glad for you that you got to reconcile with your son.

[Panshekay]

I agree with the Stolkholm syndrome Notwendy... .even when he said those things to me I knew his heart wasn't in it and where it was coming from. Maybe that was why I could so easily forgive.  He was a victim just like his children are... .so you do what you have to do in order to survive. Perhaps that's what your father did as well... .just kept feeding the monster in order to survive. I'm sure he had no idea what that was doing to you... .he was just tying to survive. That doesn't make it right because you were and still are hurting. I have to have hope and faith that maybe they are so wrapped up in their own pain that they don't realize what they  are doing to others.  (your Dad) Not everyone has a strong parent/ child bond. I think there are many people who should never have children. To be a good parent you can't put your own needs first, your kids have to come first. Many parents especially 50 to 60 years ago had kids because that what you did... .it was expected.  It was a "job" they didn't really enjoy it or want to do it.  I'm glad that our Son has a relationship with all his family again, but we still are going through hell with AB PA, custody and divorce battles along with false allegation to DHS by his uBPDW.  13 in about a year and a half. Our battle continues 

[Notwendy]

I agree that my father was just trying to survive. My parents were married for almost 60 years before he passed away. It has become habit for him to give in to her. I realized that I didn't live there, but he was with her all the time. He did what he had to do.

I know that my father loved his children. He was a great dad to us growing up and a wonderful grandfather to my kids. As an adult child, I had learned that to have a peaceful co-existence with them I had to comply with her as well. It was when she tried to enlist my kids as her emotional caretakers that I put my foot down. It didn't happen when they were little but as they got to be older and more capable of doing for her that she started that. Boundaries with my mother began the process of changing the dynamics in the family. My parents didn't like it. I am glad I stood up for my kids.

It has to be a tough situation dealing with your son's divorce and since she is the children's mother, there isn't a way to have zero contact with her, at least not now. Children grow up- and then they can make their own choices about her. My relationship with my mother isn't an easy one. It's hard to see your mother elderly and frail and not feel some obligation to help out, but helping her is stepping into the drama and emotional abuse. She's difficult to help, because she also doesn't comply and plans with her become chaotic.

I know your son is grateful for your help and support. I spent time with my father's FOO growing up. I am grateful for them.

[Panshekay]

Thank you for your kind words Notwendy  All of it is difficult.  I feel bad for every person that has to deal with these type of people.  It seems to be a no win situation, but at the end of the day I will rejoice that our son and I chose to rise  above and do what's right.  Again, thank you! 

[Notwendy]

Has your son expressed any insight to how he fell under this woman's spell? ( despite the obvious- something he wouldn't tell his mother). I am mystified at how much power my mother has over people. Yet, looking at her, she has little to offer anyone really- she isn't nice, doesn't do much for people, seems very needy and demanding. I don't enjoy being around her.

She was a beauty in her time. I know that probably had a lot to do with the attraction- but beyond that, I would hope a person would have to be at least pleasant to be around over time. I can't fathom how beauty would make up for the kinds of behaviors she has.

Yet, she has some family members wrapped around her finger. I have a sibling who just can not say no to her. And her FOO keeps telling me how wonderful she is. I wonder what planet they are on? 

[Panshekay]

Notwendy, I think it's something inside of other person that is lacking or a void they try and fill.  I see him this weekend and will ask. I know our son was in love with love from a very young age. He is a people pleaser, caregiver. I remember once when they were broken up before she got pregnant with his son... .he said he missed the excitement, the highs were very high, but of course the lows were lower than low and now when I see everything she has done and gotten away with and how much she deceives others it makes me question how professionals can believe her and miss what it truly is. They are professionals, it's their job to look at both sides but I don't see that happening.

[Notwendy]

The sense of neediness, the amazing highs that seem to make the lows worth it- that part I get, and I read on boards that the sex is amazing - but that part doesn't last long according to the narratives on the board as well.

What I don't get is the partners going along with the demand to cut off family members- who have not done anything to warrant that. Many posters here have a hard time considering cutting contact with their abusive parents even. I just can't imagine doing that to a loving parent.  I can not imagine telling a spouse to cut off his parents, his children. It's just horrific to me.

As to fooling the therapists- oh they can. My mother does that and she is good at it. She had years of treatment. Once I asked my father why it didn't work and in a rare moment of honesty he replied " because she lies to the therapists". She is manipulative and convincing.

[Panshekay]

Our son was always very very close to us Notwendy, he always wanted to fall in love with someone who would love his family as much as he did. Our son worked overseas when her met DIL, he hadn't spent a whole lot of time with her until he quit that job and moved back home. He said it was about a month into it when he started to notice her poor parenting skills, which is what bothered him the most.  He felt bad for her D who was only 2 at the time. I think what happens is they slowly turn their spouse away from their family. I know our DIL started with getting into a fight with our daughter which caused a huge conflict in our family. Then she tried the same thing with our younger son but he is very different from our son who is married to BPD, our younger son wouldnt tolerate it, and made it very clear that HE didn't like or trust her... .then she decided to move a 175 miles away when our GS was 7 months old.  She tried to destroy our sons relationship with me, lied about me etc but as a loving parent I felt all the animosity wasn't coming from him, I felt he was being gaslighted... .I felt that if I was always there for him and kept that door open he would eventually see it for what it was. I also was very forgiving with my DIL but every time we would drive down to visit she was very jealous. Our son told us after we would leave she would make his life a living hell and it was easier to keep the peace if he sided with her. I understand that. 'Feed the monster".  It's a slow process, little by little, they put seed of doubt in the spouses mind.  It was ridiculous, the things that she would say, but she is an excellent story teller with the emotions to match. 

[Notwendy]

My mother is a convincing story teller too. She has tried to do this with me. I am close to my father's family and so she's tell these little digs about them to me, not big ones, just enough to create doubt. Thankfully, I don't buy into this with her but other people do and she's very good at recruiting.

She started to do this with my own children about me. Fortunately, they can see her disorder clearly. They saw the way she behaved with my father. For a while though, I was concerned she would succeed as she did with her FOO but they have seen the other side of their grandmother. She's even tried it with my husband- takes him aside to tell him "stories" ( all made up) about me. We've taken a position of behaving respectfully to her when we do see her, while maintaining a large emotional distance. I feel sorry for her situation, as I know it has to be hard to be in her position, but I don't feel emotionally close to her and I support my children having boundaries with her. Boundaries to her are like a red flag to a bull though, she sees them as a challenge.

I am glad for your family that your steadfast love for your son has sustained your relationship with him. I know it has to be a mess to deal with his ex wife. I understand the "feed the monster"- and that monster is never satisfied. Feed it, and soon, it wants something else.

[Panshekay]

Notwendy, I like how you explained it with feed the monster, you feed it and then they want something else. It's so true... .I have such a hard time with others not seeing through her.  PROFESSIONAL people... .that's their job to catch that.  I feel sorry for her,  that she has this... .it is hell... .but when you destroy others lives then I have a problem.  I have known other BPD people and have watched the dynamics with that... .it's mind blowing how they fool others.

[Panda39]

... .I have such a hard time with others not seeing through her.  PROFESSIONAL people... .that's their job to catch that... .it's mind blowing how they fool others.

When I met my SO I didn't know what BPD was but once I learned about it I felt the same way... .why doesn't everyone see it, it's so obvious.  I think there are different things at play one part is not knowing what "it" is, another part is our own issues that we bring to relationships with other people (what we are getting by being in a relationship with this person or what are we avoiding etc), and I've also discovered how subtle some of this stuff can be (I do believe my newish (2 years) Boss has Narc traits).

My boss has felt off to me since the get go, but me being me, I took responsibility and blamed myself for those feelings (she's big picture/I'm detail oriented, I'm reacting emotionally to past experience/she lives in the present, I'm rules driven/she isn't, responsibility that is for the little people what about her grandiose idea!)... .it's me, I'm insecure, (yep the low self esteem can still rear it's ugly head) it's not her, we are just incompatible.  Things have gradually gotten worse, lots of little things down low, subtle.

I finally had an epiphany one weekend and realized I had been experiencing FOG, gas lighting, double binds, projection (she has several times literally told me what I'm feeling) etc.    I've been here for a long time and understand the dynamic but it took me about a year and a half to see what was right in front of me! I think catching on that someone has these kinds of issues also involves having enough experiences with them to get it.

But what to do once you get it, try and fix it... .end up co-dependent or thrive on the drama or buy into the lies or become the perpetual victim (some just end up stuck here)... .or leave. Depending on who we are and what baggage we bring to the table I think influences how we proceed and how long we live in each stage with the disordered person.

Panda39

[Panda39]

Disregard my last post I was still working on it and ran out of time  

Here is my modified post... .

... .I have such a hard time with others not seeing through her.  PROFESSIONAL people... .that's their job to catch that... .it's mind blowing how they fool others.

When I met my SO I didn't know what BPD was but once I learned about it I felt the same way... .why doesn't everyone see it, it's so obvious.  I think there are different things at play one part is not knowing what "it" is, another part is our own issues that we bring to relationships with other people (what we are getting by being in a relationship with this person or what are we avoiding etc), and I've also discovered how subtle some of this stuff can be (I do believe my newish (2 years) Boss has Narc traits).

My boss has felt off to me since the get go, but me being me, I ignored my gut and blamed myself for those feelings (she's big picture/I'm detail oriented, I'm reacting emotionally to past experience/she lives in the present, I'm rules driven/she isn't, responsibility that is for the little people what about her grandiose idea!)... .it's me, I'm insecure, (yep the low self esteem can still rear it's ugly head) it's not her, we are just incompatible.  Things have gradually gotten worse, lots of little things down low, subtle.

I finally had an epiphany one weekend and realized I had been experiencing FOG, gas lighting, double binds, projection (she has several times literally told me what I'm feeling) etc.   I've been here for a long time and understand the dynamic but it took me about a year and a half to see what was right in front of me! I think catching on that someone has these kinds of issues also involves having enough experiences with them to get it.

Panshekay, I think the fact that DHS has multiple people working on all the different charges against your son hasn't allowed for someone to know his case well enough to have those experiences repeatedly... .although it seemed as a few case workers were just beginning to get it.

But what to do once you get "it"? Try and fix it... .end up co-dependent or thrive on the drama or buy into the lies or become the perpetual victim, or self preservation (some just end up stuck here)... .or leave. Depending on who we are and what baggage we bring to the table I think influences how we proceed and how long we live in each stage with the disordered person.

Grandmag, I think your son has one foot in trying to fix it (his wife/his marriage) with one foot in self preservation.

I saw a lot of this with my SO's daughters during their parent's divorce.  Trying to keep their mother's love because it never comes without strings attached and trying to get their needs met by her.  They treated their father horribly and I've always thought it was because they knew his love was solid and that he could take the beating they needed to give him in order to receive their mother's love.

I know how painful what you are going through is because I witnessed my SO go through it too.  My suggestion is try to *accept that this is the way it is right now, take any opportunity you have to see your grandkids, make it clear to your son the door is always open, and take care of yourself and live your life.

*Radical Acceptance

Radical acceptance was developed by Marsha Linehan, PhD.  from the University of Washington (see article) and is based on the ancient Zen philosophy that each moment is complete by itself, and that the world is perfect as it is. Zen focuses on acceptance, validation, and tolerance instead of change.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

Panda39

[Notwendy]

I've always thought it was because they knew his love was solid and that he could take the beating they needed to give him in order to receive their mother's love.


This is generally true about children and their mothers ( if their mother is the primary caretaker and not disordered). A child might behave at school- then pitch a tantrum at home with mom- because the child feels most secure about the mother's love for him/her. I think unconditional love is essential to a child to learn to cope with feelings- good and bad ones. When the mother remains calm, loving, and with boundaries, the child feels more able to act out with her- not in a bad way, but in an honest- this is me, good and bad way. The child may not be able to do this in front of teachers, peers, other caretakers.

This isn't the case with a BPD mother. I felt I had to be "good" all the time to be loved, which is impossible. A BPD parent's love is conditional, it isn't steady, it is contingent on how the pwBPD feels. The push pull exists.

I think this he could take the beating they needed to give him in order to receive their mother's love.  Was how my father felt about me. He was present as a father when I was a child.  When my mother got angry at me and triangulated us, I believe he made the only choice he could- to side with her. He wasn't worried about me. I was an adult who could stand on my own two feet. I had my own family. I think he figured I could handle it- which I could in the sense that I didn't need a father to parent me, but a father is more than that to a child.

Same with the parent- grown child relationship. A grown child doesn't need a parent to care for them, and a parent of a grown child doesn't need to parent them- but the relationship is more than that, it is still important, but perhaps because of the strength and love of the parent, the son felt he could test the boundaries of that relationship more than he could deal with his BPD wife's demands.