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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: *Seen baby daughter once since her birth. Pushed to the edge of my sanity  (Read 575 times)
Optimism

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« on: August 29, 2017, 03:03:38 AM »

Hi all,
I had a whirlwind relationship with a girl which lead to engagement and a planned pregnancy. The relationship ended very suddenly during the pregnancy and left me reeling.

I was so distressed for a few months and in need of mental health treatment as a result.  Fortunately, the healthcare professionals were quick to spot the possibility of BPD in my ex-partner. After reading 'eggshells' I am convinced of an undiagnosed case of BPD (high functioning).

I've seen my baby daughter only once since her birth in June.

Not only is my daughter having no contact with me, the mum is unwilling to even have a conversation about it. I am going through the professional systems to fix the problem (mediation first, hopefully no court action).

My relationship with the mum is a nightmare. The hostility has escalated beyond belief. Now she is "terrified of me, doesn't want to be alone with me" and has accused me of "harassment" in response to my reaching out. She is terrified. She is doing everything she can to keep me away.

She also seems to have a good relationship with my mother who is totally lacking in sympathy for my plight. {ed. Apart from total bewilderment, I think the lack of recognition of my suffering is probably the most traumatic aspect of this whole experience. It has pushed me to the edge of my sanity.)

I was so relieved to find 'eggshells' in May and to know that there is a community of people like me out here... .Thanks for hearing my story  
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 01:45:13 PM »

Hi Optimism,

Wow! Seeing your daughter only once since June. That has to be very painful.

Your mom is not supporting you having contact, also painful. Any idea what that's about?

How are things looking from the legal perspective?

We're here to walk with you, these are not easy relationships when things go wrong.
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Optimism

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« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2017, 09:26:47 PM »

The walking contradiction is so distressing. I find myself shifting between 2 extreme modes of thought. It's a test of my mental stability.

My strategy years ago with my non-validating mum was to avoid trying to have an emotional connection so that it's not constantly being revealed. This worked for me for a while. My specialists agree that I should return to this strategy and give up the expectation that mum can validate me. I'm quite happy to put that to rest.

What I really need is to reclaim my life by defining myself in terms not associated with the BPD.  i.e. I am not Raph-the-ex-fiance. I am not Raph-the-father. I am Raph with hopes and dreams for the future of the world, through my professional and recreational life. Raph who helps, gives back, supports, loves and so on. I also have a daughter who needs me, but that's not "who i am". I need to strengthen the foundations of my own identity with some independence from my woes... .

Some idea about how to do this would be great Smiling (click to insert in post)

Thanks for all your support.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 04:02:37 PM »

I understand. With emotionally immature parents, sometimes we have to let go the dream things could ever be otherwise. I'm so sorry you have to endure this.

Do you plan to pursue some kind of legal custody arrangement so you can see your daughter?
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Optimism

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« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 07:38:27 AM »

When I made this post, the system said it's an old thread and I should start a new one but I'm going to continue this anyway if it works... .

I have attempted mediation without success and now have been to court. Legal proceedings are definitely not ideal. Very unpleasant.

I made a couple of mistakes along the way. Attending her home when I should not have. She has now accused me of stalking and sent the police to my home on one occasion. Fortunately there's basically no evidence of my wrong doing (and I wasn't actually stalking). But I now realise that I should have run for the hills as soon as I even suspected my partner has BPD. I didn't respect the severity of this condition.

Now I have some very strict rules about contact with my daughter. Ultimately by the time she is 7 years old I will have every second weekend with her as well as half her school holidays which isn't too bad. I was asking for 50-50 time. It's all very upsetting and unfair to be sure. I currently see her 30 minutes per week. She's nearly one year old and I've spent about 4 hours with her.

Fortunately, the court situation looks like it will resolve soon. I have heard that other cases often go on for years. My daughter is very bright. She loves books already and today I saw her walking for the first time. So delighted.

I have had a lot of trouble getting my head around how to balance my approach to my ex-partner. I am accused of being "overly friendly and pretending that nothing is wrong" when I try to be warm and say nice things (like you would with a person you hope to have a cooperative relationship). I feel that I am forced to be cold and clinical and this is also not acceptable and not good for our daughter. Fortunately, we're finally going to mediation and I am hopeful that we can agree to rules of communication that protect me from future abuse etc.

I just want to say thanks to this website and admins for all the support. I wish there was a support group for me locally to work through this (especially the nasty pitfalls of the court process). Most of the people in the system don't appreciate the problem. There are so many layers to the nightmare it is difficult to find words to express it... .But I think I'm getting my head around it slowly.

Thanks,
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Optimism

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« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 07:42:02 AM »

I should also say that I think some of my experience may be useful to others.

I am in Australia and have been self-representing in court. This is an enormous task and I've learned a lot that I could share.

Regards,
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Panda39
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« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 08:03:45 AM »

Welcome back Optimism  , thanks for the update.

I'm so glad to hear about your time with your daughter she sounds like a smart cookie  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  I know that you would have preferred more time with her, but know that many of us here have had to go back to court over time to get more time with our kids.  So you are where you are now but that doesn't mean it will stay this way forever.  We always say around here that "it's a Marathon not a sprint".

Don't beat yourself up about going to the ex's house we all make mistakes and you learned from that mistake, and don't plan on doing it again so it is a non-issue.

In terms of future communication with your ex, I would suggest email communication.  Email slows down the interaction so you have time to think about your response vs the usual knee jerk responses.  Only communicate about your daughter, don't get sucked into anything else.  If your ex sends an email bad mouthing you and then says she scheduled your daughter for a doctor's appointment, only respond to the doctor appointment.  Use BIFF (Brief, Informative, Friendly, Firm) when responding.  If your ex sends an email badmouthing you or looking for drama and there is nothing about your daughter, simply don't respond.  The other good thing about email communication is that it creates documentation that you might need if you go back to court to request more visitation time with your daughter.

Panda39
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2018, 06:53:21 PM »

I can understand your confusion and initial gullibility.  I was married for some 10 years before we even tried to have children.  In time we went to a reproductive specialist for testing and did have a child.  I had the misconception that a baby would make my spouse's perspective happier and she could enjoy seeing her child discover life.  Wrong.  She relived her childhood though him.  After his birth she was distant emotionally and physically.  It came to a confrontation one Sunday when he was 3.5 years old and police were called.  That was the end of that.  She launched every sort of child abuse, endangerment or neglect allegation she could imagine, fortunately the court and the professionals around the court saw they weren't credible or substantiated.

However there was one period, three months, between temp orders when she totally blocked my father-child contact.  It was the closest I came to risking my safety.  I had the presence of mind to ask the police to accompany me so I could see my preschooler.  They refused, telling me I had to wait for a court order in hand before they would help.  However, when I asked what they would do if I went to see him alone and she called then, they said they'd come rushing.  Well, my fear of risking arrest protected me from Gifting her an excuse to frame me as an aggressor.  But those were most certainly dark days for me.

I don't know why I didn't post to this thread last year, maybe I didn't notice it.  I would probably have remarked that trying to avoid the adversarial approach of court by choosing mediation instead is usually doomed to failure when the ex is so entitled and has blacklisted you.  You can't force someone to reason or be reasonable simply by negotiation.  She was "in possession" of a baby and that is hard to tackle even in court.

What happened with me is that the court asked my local CPS to determine whether I was a danger to my child.  At that first hearing I attended after my ex asked for protection, the CPS rep stood up and stated they had "no concerns" about me.  Yes, every future allegation was investigated dutifully if it was seen as potentially 'actionable' but in time it became evident her scary bark was more or less toothless.  Those early years were hard but I survived, as you are doing too.

About your current level visitation.  This ought to be viewed as virtually unconscionable.  How so?  Unless you are seen by the professionals and court as a risk to your child , whether risk of child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment, then you ought to be able to have a "normal" parenting schedule.  Yes, while it was right for you to seek 50% parenting from the start, until recent years most courts have been more than willing to default to so-called 'normal' father's visitation of alternate weekends and an evening or overnight in between.  It's often more than an uphill struggle for a father to get more.

It appears that your parenting time does not match your circumstances.  That is, you're clearly not a risk to the child whether for abuse, neglect or endangerment.  So how is it you don't have substantive time with your child nor, apparently, even any overnights?  If you are not a risk to the child then you should have ramped up to more time by now.  What legal basis could the court have to keep you so limited?

Or did you agree to such limited terms?  Note that court can order restrictions with basis but if there is no basis the order ought to be limited only if you agreed/settled for those terms.

Another thought... .Here in the USA many courts have a suggested or historical schedule for children under 3 years of age that is different than for older children.  When they are babies and toddlers schedules are generally for more frequent but shorter visits, maybe 4 or more, with 1 or 2 separate overnights, across a two week period.

In short, in the USA (1) supervised visits are not ordered nor (2) are overnights totally blocked... .unless there is a problem with the non-primary parent.

Disclaimer:  I've given my experiences and typical perspectives in parts of the USA.  I've heard your country can be less responsive to fathers' pleas but don't give up.
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Aussie JJ
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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2018, 09:17:29 PM »

Optimism,

Im in Australia as well.  

Few things:
* What state are you in?
* Age of yourself and your partner?
* Whats your relationship like with your mother personally ?

I'm off for a fair bit today as I have my son as well, but ill get back on and give some general and more specific pointers this evening and look through your previous posts as well to ensure im not asking the same questions you have already answered.  Be warned, Mediation is non binding and its essentially a waste of time when dealing with someone with BPD or BPD like tendancys etc.  Enter with low expectations so you dont get shocked when it fails.  
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Optimism

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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2018, 10:13:28 AM »

I'm in Australia, NSW.
Ex and I are 36 yrs old
Relationship with mum is functional but not emotionally good.

I need some help resolving a current problem:
We finally have orders so that I can spend time with my daughter which is going well and that's great!
Last week I invited a friend to join me during visitation (supervised by a family member at the request of the Ex).
The Ex noticed my friend joining me and after visitation she lost her temper pretty badly in front of bub. She thought it was against our orders for me to bring others along to the meeting etc. I think I'm fine within the definition of the orders but I'm going to look into it legally and see what comes.

At this incident: My ex committed 2 instances that are not acceptable. 1 is that she abused me after the meeting (angry voice, accusations, nothing major). 2 is that she spent some time observing me during visitation which is not appropriate and distresses me.

I have reported the misconduct to the relevant authorities to continue a record of incidents that can affect the child.
I did not intend to confront my ex about anything that I considered to be child abuse until I need to pull the trigger on further legal action (perhaps in 5-10 years, who knows).

However, I did intend to stand up to any abuse of myself.

This is my dilemma:
I am not sure how to respond to the fact that she was observing me during visitation.
I am not sure how to respond to the verbal abuse from last week (I did not stand up to her then, I simply withdrew).

Eggshells seems to suggest: don't dig up past verbal abuses, stop them in the moment, or otherwise move on.

Part of me wants to continue to build record of my ex's unreasonable actions (for example make a report with the police that was being observed, it's distressing, I am being abused, etc). Part of that idea includes confronting my ex. For example, write a letter which says "last week, I noticed this behaviour, it is upsetting and I ask that it not be repeated."

Part of me says that this will cause my ex to escalate and fabricate and make everything far worse, deprive me of access to my child and also to freak out and distress the baby (baby is still very young and I worry about poking the bear).

It's hard because I promised myself that I would no longer remain silent about the abuse. Now I'm worried about the impact on the baby and future issues... .

This has happened because I've decided to stop walking on eggshells and live my life. I decided to introduce my daughter to a friend who has wanted to see her for a long time. I do not appreciate being punished for it and I feel as though I need to stand up for myself in that regard.

Should I have simply stood up for myself during the meeting and left it at that?
Or should I let my ex know that it is not acceptable for her to ask about or observe my visitation?

Having written all of this, I'm starting to think that it is a mistake to try to reason with an irrational person. I'm thinking that I should make my reports without notifying my ex about appropriate behaviour... .

any thoughts?
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livednlearned
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2018, 11:55:18 AM »

Few questions to clarify -- do the supervised visits happen whenever you see your D, or was it just this one time? What are the conditions around the supervised visits and how long are they scheduled to continue?

Did your ex stay in the home or wherever the meeting took place? Or was it distressing just knowing she was out there somewhere?

Is your friend female? Is having a friend come with you to visitation something you want to continue?

How long did the argument last?
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2018, 09:06:44 PM »

We finally have orders so that I can spend time with my daughter which is going well and that's great!
Last week I invited a friend to join me during visitation (supervised by a family member at the request of the Ex)... .

It's hard because I promised myself that I would no longer remain silent about the abuse. Now I'm worried about the impact on the baby and future issues... .

Having written all of this, I'm starting to think that it is a mistake to try to reason with an irrational person. I'm thinking that I should make my reports without notifying my ex about appropriate behaviour... .

Yes, it generally is "a mistake to try to reason with an irrational person."  Logic does not counter the intense Emotional Feelings/Perceptions of someone who isn't listening.  More often than not you get into circular arguments and more Blaming.  However, at the first infraction of the rules as you understand them, you probably should state your position, sort of as fair notice.  If it is trampled underfoot, so to speak, then you consult your solicitor or court resources.

Do make a report.  Consider this as part of your new boundary, the court order.  Not reporting it would entice her to feel she can do it again with impunity.  Of course, you don't want to nitpick every last detail in the order but this impacts your parenting and your relationship with your young child.  Your parenting deserves to have solid grounding without ex unilaterally reinterpreting things to her favor.

She is trying to control you through the terms of your parenting.  One thing we warn against is allowing your ex, already in conflict and obstructing you, to be hovering over you during your parenting time.  Does the order make clear that the stated 'supervisor' is not a representative or proxy of your ex?  From your wording, is the supervisor one of her relatives?  That makes it a bit hard.  Then again, supervision implies the supervisor is handling the child's welfare during the visit and your request that ex not be present ought to be a reasonable one.

How about bringing the child (baby?  newborn?) to a neutral location, away from ex's home or presence?  A park, maybe, or some similar arrangement recognized as safe and yet away from ex?

Lastly, supervision implies that you're not seen as trustworthy at this point in time.  In the USA this is typically imposed on fathers upon claims of the mother until court and it's professionals such as children's services are assured, generally within a few weeks or so, you are not a substantive risk to the child of abuse, endangerment or neglect.  We've even had cases where mother claimed she was breastfeeding and demanded no visits, but court ordered it didn't stop visits and mother had the option to express her milk and send it along at the exchanges.

According to the order, how long are your visits to be monitored, supervised or restricted?  Hopefully, not indefinitely.  You are a reasonably normal father, this supervision issue needs to be resolved in your favor sooner rather than later.  Disclaimer, Australian policies may be different from USA.
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Optimism

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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2018, 07:48:43 AM »

Few questions to clarify -- do the supervised visits happen whenever you see your D, or was it just this one time? What are the conditions around the supervised visits and how long are they scheduled to continue?

Did your ex stay in the home or wherever the meeting took place? Or was it distressing just knowing she was out there somewhere?

Is your friend female? Is having a friend come with you to visitation something you want to continue?

How long did the argument last?

The Ex alleged child abuse and proposed orders which included supervision till January. Supervision is once per week and alternate Saturdays with my Auntie as supervisor. Change-overs are at McDonalds.
We gathered on the other side of McDonalds to walk to the library. I should have had my friend wait at the library but I am trying to "stop walking on eggshells". On this occasion I understand that I should have been more discrete and considerate.  The Ex was leaving the carpark in her car. She saw us and that's why she stopped (for example, she wasn't just following me about). I suppose that, under the current circumstances, I will be nervous leaving McDonalds until I know she is gone etc, but I wouldn't expect her to be hovering, I will just be nervous knowing that if she sees me doing something she doesn't like, there will be punishment. In the long term, I suppose I can say that if i took my daughter into town I would worry that she was going to see us and turn it into a disaster. With all of this in mind it occurs to me that I need to set the boundary.

My friend is female and young. It was a combination of ill-considered circumstances on my part. She is only a friend and I have no need for her to be visiting repeatedly. It was just a friend meeting my daughter.

The argument lasted about 3-5 minutes I suppose. I left and my Auntie remained and tried to appease the Ex for another 2-3 minutes.

Thanks for the feedback and support.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2018, 09:10:51 AM »

It sounds like you reflected on what happened and have a good sense of what you would do differently if you could have a do-over. That says a lot about you. Being able to look at your choices and see where you could do better takes a lot of emotional strength.

These aren't typical circumstances and it's understandable to want some normalcy.

Normalcy is tricky for us, especially when family law courts are red hot and active. She has you on your heels a bit here with the supervised visitation so you can't have missteps.

She didn't handle things well because regulating emotions is a giant weakness. You don't want to walk on egg shells, but you do want to minimize stuff that could trigger emotional dysregulation when possible because it's better for D2, and better for you, especially if her yelling at you leads to you yelling back.

I would expect your ex to be on the look out at your next exchange.

Do you feel prepared for that? Maybe give her a big wave   and then put her out of mind so you can focus on D2.

If I were in your shoes, I would not tell the relevant authorities what happened. I might instead write a short BIFF email to your ex saying, "Please do not yell in front of D2 during our exchanges. After our last visit, you yelled in front of D2 for 5 minutes and it visibly upset her. If you are angry about something, please put what is bothering you in an email so that D2 is not exposed. I understand why you were upset and will take your concerns into consideration. It is yelling in front of D2 that I am objecting to."

That way you document what happened, give her a solution to her problem (yelling in front of D2) without taking it to the next level, which could involve unintentional blowback (e.g. authorities lecturing you about bringing women to the visits).

Also, if she does continue to yell at you, you may want to put that in an email too. "I will not be yelled at during exchanges. If it happens at the end of my visits with D2, I will walk away." Then make sure you do it. Whatever you do, don't yell back. One suggestion is to hold up your hand and stay STOP repeatedly until she calms down. But given the conflict between you, it might be better to tell her what you will do next time she yells. And then do it.

This way you document her bad behavior without running to the authorities every time you two have a dispute. What courts care about is adults handling their own problems and proposing solutions that the court can then get behind. You don't want to put court in the middle of your dispute because you'll just get a consequence that punishes you and your ex equally. 
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2018, 09:19:18 AM »

How could ex allege child abuse when you had been blocked from seeing your child?  There wasn't even an opportunity for abuse.  This is emotional conviction/belief that is subtly and not-so-subtly aimed to obstruct your parenting.  The relationship is over and therefore you are now painted in bold strokes as Mr Evil Personified.  All bad, no good, no in between.

Be prepared that when the time comes for the proposed orders to end in January that she will seek (insist) they be extended or even made permanent.  I've heard that Australia lets mothers take charge in children's early years.  So you have an uphill struggle to be a parent.

As I mentioned before, supervised visitation has only two reasons to be ordered... .
(1) The parent is documented to be a real risk to the child/children.
(2) The parent has been alleged to be a real risk to the child/children and court orders short term supervised visitation only long enough for a professional evaluation to determine whether supervision is warranted, generally completed in just a few weeks.

Of course, a parent claiming she FEELS a risk to the child needs to be judged with the FACTS.  Getting the court to recognize that and do that, that's the challenge.  What often happens is that courts are slow to make adequate orders, preferring to wait it out in expectation of settlements instead, and so the obstructed parent is cornered into agreeing to unjust settlements.
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Optimism

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« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2018, 05:14:50 AM »

You guys are amazing. I thought I was past this and my BPD disasters would be manageable with my own understanding. I was wrong. It gets incredibly difficult... .I'm so glad I have you. I have a number of emotional/social supporters, however, after recent events I have found that they don't see the problem. I turned back to these forums and it's such a relief to know that there are people out there who actually understand.

Thanks.

(Btw, it's D1. The 1 and only )
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Optimism

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« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2018, 05:17:19 AM »

Excerpt
If I were in your shoes, I would not tell the relevant authorities what happened. I might instead write a short BIFF email to your ex saying, "Please do not yell in front of D2 during our exchanges. After our last visit, you yelled in front of D2 for 5 minutes and it visibly upset her. If you are angry about something, please put what is bothering you in an email so that D2 is not exposed. I understand why you were upset and will take your concerns into consideration. It is yelling in front of D2 that I am objecting to."

Isn't it like a red rag to a bull to say: "last time you yelled in front of... ." i.e. isn't that the kind of criticism to avoid?
If I knew how to "word" things I would be so much happier.
--EDIT ---
nvm I am now looking up BIFF. Thanks for the tips.
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