Trying to improve my parenting skills along with my relationship...

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hey everyone,

It's been a long time since I've posted, and even longer since I posted on the Improving board. I wish I could say that everything has been smooth - it hasn't - but I'm trying to stay positive.

I won't go into my back story much, but as many of you know, I've been married to my pwBPD now for almost 15 years. It's been rough - we took a 2 year break about 10 years ago. We had our first and only child 4 years ago, and she is going to be the subject of my post... .

The problem is this - EVERY parenting decision is still a HUGE fight with us. Take tonight for example. Our daughter starts PreK next week and she's REALLY anxious about it. In fact, she's anxious about nearly everything. For the past few nights, my poor 4 year old has been sitting up anxious and can't get to sleep. Normally she goes right to sleep so this is unusual. I tend to want to want to sit with her for 20 minutes or so, and when I do, she almost always calms down. My wife, on the other hand, wants to set a firm boundary of "door closed, that's it" and she even wants to impose consequences when D4 cries or calls for us after the door is closed.

I know what I think the right thing is (obviously) but she strongly believes she's doing the right thing by enforcing the "we won't come back in" rule.

Here's the thing - I feel like the push pull and inconsistencies are probably worse than just enforcing one rule. I think that sucks. But am I right?

Also, I feel like having our daughter exposed to so much fighting is at least partly responsible for D4's anxious nature. I know it doesn't help to feel so guilty but I can't help but feel responsible.

So for those of you who are in your relationship trying to improve, how do you handle parenting as a part of this? I feel like parenting is a perfect example of where two people trying to improve their relationship could focus some energy. Just wondering if others have been here and what you've done?

Much more to say overall but thought I'd start here.

-DaddyBear

[DaddyBear77]

Hey everyone,

It's been a long time since I've posted, and even longer since I posted on the Improving board. I wish I could say that everything has been smooth - it hasn't - but I'm trying to stay positive.

I won't go into my back story much, but as many of you know, I've been married to my pwBPD now for almost 15 years. It's been rough - we took a 2 year break about 10 years ago. We had our first and only child 4 years ago, and she is going to be the subject of my post... .

The problem is this - EVERY parenting decision is still a HUGE fight with us. Take tonight for example. Our daughter starts PreK next week and she's REALLY anxious about it. In fact, she's anxious about nearly everything. For the past few nights, my poor 4 year old has been sitting up anxious and can't get to sleep. Normally she goes right to sleep so this is unusual. I tend to want to want to sit with her for 20 minutes or so, and when I do, she almost always calms down. My wife, on the other hand, wants to set a firm boundary of "door closed, that's it" and she even wants to impose consequences when D4 cries or calls for us after the door is closed.

I know what I think the right thing is (obviously) but she strongly believes she's doing the right thing by enforcing the "we won't come back in" rule.

Here's the thing - I feel like the push pull and inconsistencies are probably worse than just enforcing one rule. I think that sucks. But am I right?

Also, I feel like having our daughter exposed to so much fighting is at least partly responsible for D4's anxious nature. I know it doesn't help to feel so guilty but I can't help but feel responsible.

So for those of you who are in your relationship trying to improve, how do you handle parenting as a part of this? I feel like parenting is a perfect example of where two people trying to improve their relationship could focus some energy. Just wondering if others have been here and what you've done?

Much more to say overall but thought I'd start here.

-DaddyBear

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[Notwendy]

Hi Daddybear- I think the key to improving both parenting skills and relationship skills is by working on our own co-dependency. Although the concern for your daughter and how to manage her behavior is important, I think children learn predominantly by our own examples.

One thing that makes children feel anxious is poor boundaries. They have a sense of uncertainty when the adults in charge don't have emotionally healthy boundaries. It is hard to see the selfishness in co-dependency but it is self serving even if it appears the person is being self sacrificing, For instance- are you consoling your D when she is upset, or are you actually consoling yourself because you can't manage seeing her upset when there is a behavior boundary. Same with your wife.

Yes, it makes sense that your D is nervous about the first day of Pre-K. It's normal- it's a new experience, a strange place, new kids, and new teacher. This can happen again at the start of the school year, Kindergarten, middle school, high school and one day you are going to drop her off at college. These steps are just as stressful on us parents as they are for the kids, but what do we want for them? We want them to be able to manage their own uncomfortable feelings so that they can be successful and enjoy school. We can't take away their feelings or manage them for them- they need to learn how to do this.

I am not taking sides between your and your wife. She may be too hard on your D, you may be too easy. Neither one is good for the child and you are correct, the inconsistency isn't good either. She needs both firm limits- the won't come back rule and lots of love and also the times when the rule isn't appropriate- such as if she was ill or very stressed. For a rule to have an exception though, there has to be a rule or routine in place.

I don't know if it is possible to get you and your wife on the same page about parenting as agreement and consistency is a challenge in a BPD relationship. However, you can improve your parenting skills. It still comes down to you- I think working on co-dependency is key. I think a good parenting program is Parenting with Love and Logic as this balances limits , learning from consequences with protecting children's safety and lots of love. There may be some classes in your area.

[DaddyBear77]

Thanks for the perspective Notwendy - I believe you are correct that my codependency is fully in play here. I think I'd feel a lot better if I had some confidence in what the best thing to do is. I'll look into the Parenting with Love and Logic.

As you pointed out, it will be really hard to come to consensus with my pwBPD. If anything comes into conflict with her beliefs or ideas, there will be an intense reaction. I've known this long before we had children, but nothing before has been as important to me than being the best parent I could be.

[Notwendy]

For me, I took a long term perspective on this. This kind of dysfunction is trans-generational. The reason is that- even if an individual does not have a disorder, but is raised in a family with disorder, he/she has learned dysfunctional behaviors. These behaviors may have been functional in their own FOO ( in order to survive) but are not functional as an adult with other relationships.

I attend an ACA group which also deals with dysfunctional family patterns. ( and fits BPD families- as codependency is a big component of families with an member who is an alcoholic) and one saying is " we picked up the disorder even if we didn't pick up the drinking"

To keep the peace in my FOO, I basically became a doormat to my parents' demands. I did the same thing in my marriage. I thought I was doing the best thing for my children by doing this, as it seemed to quell some ( but not all ) of the arguing. My kids were anxious. I found notes in their rooms that they had written about us fighting. One said " they should get a divors " ( spelled how they did at the time). One blamed the fighting on me. So, to keep the peace, I acted like a Stepford wife. I was basically a maid, cook, sitter, with benefits on demand. I thought that by giving my H anything he wanted whenever he wanted would be the solution to my marriage problems. Where do you think I learned this?

But it wasn't working. I was creating a person who expected to get his way, and pitched a fit when he didn't. I did this because i was afraid of making him unhappy or angry, and wanted him to love me, just like I was afraid of making my mother angry and unhappy growing up and wanted Mommy to love me. How would  I do this? I looked to the one person I admired and loved for an example and I think you know who that was. Being compliant may have sometimes worked with Mommy but it certainly hasn't solved the situation.

I saw that this wasn't working in my marriage and it wasn't working in my parent's marriage. I had married someone who is very different from my mother and yet, similar patterns to my parents' marriage were occurring in mine. My H had his own traits, but my behavior- codependency and fears of his anger were making them even larger.

There are no perfect parents- but I decided the best thing I could do for my children as a parent was to stop this cycle. Basically, this behavior pattern had to stop. Every marriage has conflicts, and what I was modelling for my children was to solve conflicts by being a doormat and doing whatever the other person wants. Not only did it not work, but it also was not good for me or my children. My children needed me to be an emotionally mature and authentic person, not a doormat.

How you get your child to go to sleep is a blip in the long term lesson you are teaching her through your own example. Consider that the best way to be a good parent is to change the patterns of dysfunction you are role modeling.

[formflier]

Quick observation:  Don't get caught up in the "small picture" power struggle over exactly how she gets to bed.  I would focus more on the big picture power struggle of compromise in parenting.

Stay calm... .offer compromise or offer to be happy with each doing it their own way... .let her choose.

Perhaps give up bedtime routine for something else.  Understand that at the start there will be lots of resistance.

Perhaps offer your way on bedtime or we can go to professional for better advice.

The other good thing here... .is either way seems fine to me.  I'm a bit reluctant to say there should be "consequences" for her calling out after door shut, but I'm more of a "punt and you are in bed go to sleep kinda parent".

Yes... .I will try to have a quick conversation... .hit some highlights... .think about something pleasant, but in general... .kids try to drag out bedtime... parents try to curtail it.

Don't let your kids anxiety... .trigger yours.

Now... .I realize much of your kids anxiety is likely due to r/s issues... .but I would also submit that an anxious child is not an abnormal thing... .so don't assume anxiety equals bad or anxiety equals a parent needs to take action.

Sometimes... .it does... .but rarely.

FF

[Notwendy]

This is a situation that is a set up for the drama triangle. It's an opportunity for the victim/ rescuer dynamic. I have found that the person with BPD prefers victim and the non tends to be the rescuer. I've also found that if someone else takes victim position then the Pw BPD will in a sense compete for that. The original dynamic is for them to be rescued. All the players can take  on these roles at an automatic - not deliberate way.

When your daughter cries and you rescue her, I suspect this ruffles your wife's feathers and she digs in her heels more. Let it go and she might have a different reaction.

[DaddyBear77]

Thanks Notwendy, FF, you guys have always been really spot on with your advice and observations.

Quick observation:  Don't get caught up in the "small picture" power struggle over exactly how she gets to bed.  I would focus more on the big picture power struggle of compromise in parenting.
... .
Don't let your kids anxiety... .trigger yours.
... .
I would also submit that an anxious child is not an abnormal thing

This is a particularly good point, FF, and it echoes my gut feeling that my codependency is really at work here.

Both my wife and I were anxious children. That's clearly got at least something to do with it.

When your daughter cries and you rescue her, I suspect this ruffles your wife's feathers and she digs in her heels more. Let it go and she might have a different reaction.

This is exactly what happens, Notwendy. The only thing I can do here is let it go, which I am doing. Great observation.


The thing that I clearly got out of what you've both said so far is that working on my own codependent nature will help in both regards, which is a really positive thing to hear. Thank you.

[formflier]

Going to hold you to task a bit here.

The biggest thing... IMO... going on here is the BPDish my way or the highway stuff.  So, find ways to keep the compromise topic front and center.

Said another way... .the longer you let her have complete control... .the harder it will be to break it.

It's not an emergency, and I would encourage some trial and error to find the best way forward on this.

Practically speaking, the way it has worked out in my marriage is I defer to my wife on parenting... .70-80 percent of the time... perhaps more.  She understands now that when I take a stand... it is unlikely I budge (picking up daughter from SIL, corporal punishment, kids listening to dysfunction).

Said another way, keep the topic out there, make sure when you take a stand it matters and you don't budge.

She won't like it.

FF

[Notwendy]

DB and FF, your situations are different from mine as your wives are interested in child rearing. My mother was not. We kids were raised by sitters and my father when he had time. We used to resent it, as our friends had mothers who were hands on for child care. However, as an adult, I am glad we had caring and competent people to raise us. My mother is on the severe end of BPD and your wives may be more functional.

When it came to parenting, I took it on. My H is very rigid about gender roles - something that I didn't imagine would be so rigid. I had already planned on traditional roles- but had a career and wanted to work part time but I didn't expect the degree of rigid. He had no interest in helping with housework or child care and asking him to help would result in anger or the ST.

I took on the whole of the parenting- for several reasons. It kept the peace ( that was not a good reason- WOE) but in the long run it was better for the kids to not have resentful parent taking care of them. I had the more even temper with the kids. I also did take breaks, but I got baby sitters when I did, instead of asking my H. Ironically, I made the same choice my father made when raising us- better to have a willing caretaker for the kids than an unwilling one. But I was with them most of the time.

I wanted to have good parenting skills too. I would look at other mothers and be just amazed at their skills. I realized that I didn't have someone model them for me, but they can be learned. I read a lot of parenting books and studied how other parents did it.

I agree with deferring child care to the wife if she is competent and wants to take it on. This doesn't mean you are not a partner in child care, but both your wives are stay at home moms. I have done both- stay at home mom and career. A stay at home mom does not get some of the self esteem perks one gets at work- like a paycheck or recognition from society for the job. Our home and our kids are our jobs. For me, it was important to have some authority and decision making in my world- just like I do in my jobs. To have my H tell me what to do would feel demeaning. This doesn't mean you don't have decision making power but that you see your wives as partners - and just like in a job- your partner would take on their parts and make decisions about it. The exception would be if your wives were abusive or doing something that is not good for the child.

[Notwendy]

For the bedtime-

It's important for a child to learn to get to sleep by themselves. Parenting books recommend putting a baby to bed while still awake. In reality, sometimes the baby fall asleep anyway, but the recommendation is to not have the child depend on the parent to get to sleep. That way, if the baby wakes up at night, he/she may cry but is not dependent on the parent to get to sleep ( and the parents get more sleep).

Letting a child learn to fall asleep on their own is an important skill for the child. It is part of the learning process to self soothe- something pwBPD and co-dependent partners have difficulty with. What a gift to the child to let them learn this skill. If a parent rushes in each time they cry- and manage this upset for them, rock them back to sleep- then they take this skill learning away from the child. One thing to consider is the parent's distress. The parent may actually be rescuing themselves from their own bad feelings when they hear the child's cry. If they actually can not stand it, or worry that something is wrong, they can go back in, check the child and then let the child fall asleep on their own.

It's important to have a routine, but the routine is up to the parents. It can include bedtime prayers, parents reading a bedtime story, some snuggle time, a transition object like a teddy bear or blankie, a glass of water ( nothing else after brushing teeth)- but what is important is that it is at a regular time and the routine is the same. When there is a routine in place, the occasional exception can be made for something like illness. But in general the routine needs to be regular. This helps anxious children- to have a regular routine and limits.

The child may test the limits and get up. ( children test limits) but the response is still to keep to the routine. Don't punish but lead or place the child back in their room with a quick hug and get back to bed. This may happen a lot at first but if you are consistent, the routine will stick.

Can you work out a routine that is acceptable to both you and your wife?

I will tell you a story about an experience I had. I was one of the volunteers in a church preschool and a parent dropped off the child- about 3 or 4 for a couple of hours. The child was sobbing hysterically and didn't want the parent to go. We encouraged the parent to leave. The child was perfectly safe with us. The child cried for a few moments and then settled down and began to play with the toys. This was a skill- the child was upset and learned to self soothe. Just then, the parent returned, picked up the child and said " I just couldn't leave you crying like that" and left with the child.

We were upset then. What just happened? Who couldn't self soothe- the child or the parent? The parent. The parent could not stand to hear their child cry and then came back and supposedly rescued the child, but they were rescuing themselves. The child was fine and playing. This parent thought they were being a good parent, but they made the child dependent on them. The child will have even more difficulty going to pre-school and later school if this continues. The parent took away the self soothing lesson, as well as taught the child that crying can control the parent. Instead of " I know you can go to school ( or sleep) " it said " you can't manage without me".

It isn't easy to see your child upset, but sometimes letting them manage it- in a loving way- after some hugs and kisses- with the message " I know you can do it" is best. Ultimately we want to raise kids who can be independent of us one day and it goes in steps like this. The bedtime routine is one of those steps. So come up with one that is both loving, supportive, and lets her learn to self soothe and get to sleep on her own.

[DaddyBear77]

Notwendy, I agree, we are in different situations regarding child rearing, but there are places where we intersect. I've found that to be true in most of the relationships we discuss on these boards.

For my specific situation, I can share some details with you... .

My wife is very high functioning, but she goes through a cycle of
"I'm going to kick butt at what I'm doing! I'm great at this and I'm going to fight my way to the top!" and then "No one is letting me get ahead! What's their problem?"
then
"I just can't stand what my boss / management is doing to me! I can't take this anymore!"
and then
"Why won't you take care of me and rescue me from this horrible job?"
and then
"What do you mean we'll have less money if I quit! I need you to fix that, too!"
and finally,
she just quits, consequences be damned.

She's been through that cycle twice with a paying job. She's probably repeating the cycle again now with grad school.

And there are small hints that this cycle is going to repeat itself again with parenting.

It's clear she's at the top of the cycle with parenting now - she sees herself as kicking butt as a mom, our daughter is brilliant and loving and caring and all the things a parent could want. My wife takes credit for all of it, which honestly, I encourage because I WANT my wife to feel good and confident about the things she's doing. But often, she looks at me and says "Why aren't you doing more parenting!" - when the honest truth is, in a given 24 hour period, I take at LEAST 50% of the daytime responsibility, and nearly 100% of all the night time stuff. I'm worried this is going to be something that she eventually hands over to me, and the rejection that D4 is going to feel will be horrible. I've mentioned this happening a couple times in previous posts. That's one of my biggest fears here.

And regarding the bed time stuff - that's a great example of something my wife has done very well - everything you said about routine, regular bedtime, putting them to bed while they're still awake - my wife has been leading the charge on that since our daughter was 4 months old! I saw the research, I read the parenting books, I believed her, I knew it was the right thing to do, and I supported her.

I just wish she would do it with empathy, warmth, and compassion.

And one more story about the preschool / daycare stuff. That's another thing where I do almost all of the drop off and pick up. I remember her first few weeks were really difficult. We took turns at drop off at first - when my wife would drop her off, there would be very little screaming and crying. When I dropped her off, there was clinging and crying and screaming, and I totally expected it, and was prepared. I would say "I love you, I have to go now" and then walk out the door. And the staff was totally on it. They redirected her, helped her find something to do, and although I was out the door and long gone, I talked to the staff and heard that 30 seconds after I left, she was fine, and fine for the rest of the day.

So I get that it's me. I really, really do.

But again, the thing that bothers me about all of this is the lack of apparent empathy, warmth and compassion.

[Notwendy]

empathy, warmth and compassion.

For me, I think someone with BPD is so conflicted with their own issues, that they don't have a supply of this for other people.

They may not have been raised with this, or if they were, were not able to experience it.  IMHO, they perceive themselves as victims. At some level, they are in emotional pain. Someone in emotional pain is naturally self centered and focused on that.

I think it is natural to want to help with that pain - to fix it somehow. It is hard to see someone we care about hurting like that. I don't believe it is in our power to fix that though. We can be caring and compassionate to them but I don't think we can fix it for them and it gets us into issues if we try.

From my own experience, I don't think my severely PBD mother can show those qualities to me or anyone. She can attempt to mimic them if she wants to do that but I don't think she can feel them. I think the paradox of BPD is when they are high functioning. My mother is low functioning in her daily life, but intelligence wise, she has it- however she isn't able to make full use of it in daily function because of her emotional dysregulation. In a way, your wife has the intelligence for a job, and grad school, but not the emotional regulation to manage the difficulties that come with every job or school pursuit. Then she looks at you to rescue her, but that isn't good for either of you.

Even if you do a lot, there seems to be a perception that she is doing too much. I have seen that too. I think it comes from victim perspective. My H had this rigid sense of fair/unfair when it came to that. He saw his job as being the wage earner, and mine the house and kids. Since I could not do his job ( I am not trained to do what he does), he couldn't ask me to help him with work. So it would be "unfair" in his mind if I asked him to help with the kids. It didn't go well if I did, so I didn't and I eventually stopped even asking him to do anything and just did it myself.

My perception of my parents is that my father did more child care than what was expected of a man in his era ( with my mother identifying as a "housewife" as most of her peers did).  However, from how my mother  speaks, her perception is that she did the share of parenting.

I don't think we can change these perceptions. I think our task is not to buy into them and hold on to our version of reality. Letting someone define that for us isn't good. You know what you do. I know what I do. How someone else thinks about this doesn't change that. The ability to hold on to our state of mind when someone else disagrees is boundaries.

Yes, it's OK to check with the school to see if your child has settled down. That's part of being a parent. But good for you to let the teachers manage the situation and let your D self soother.

[formflier]

"Mimic"... .that is the critical word in the post. 

DB77,

If you lower your expectations and focus in an "oh by the way"... .way... .on what you want to "see" your wife do at bedtime, then perhaps there can be movement here.

So... .let me put it to you this way.  What would you "see" your wife do (no assumptions about her feelings or perceptions) that would let you say... she is doing the "empathy and warmth thing".

I would also encourage you to focus on the "things going well" and try to build on those.  Especially around sleep.  Said another way... I'll swap wives anytime... . .

Mine will get kids up... arbitrarily put them to bed hours early... .sleep in their beds... .have rigid bedtimes... etc etc.

Truthfully... this has calmed (no surprise) by turning down the temperature in the home (emotionally speaking).

Let's also keep in mind the "big picture"... .keep compromise on the table.  Yes... you will have to be the more flexible one.  50/50 is a pipe dream. 

FF