Wife (BPD) wants to divorce and relocate out of state with kids

[RealityMgt]

This is my first time here, so please bear with me. As I'm sure is the case with most everyone's stories, all of the details and nuances would take far, FAR too long to go through, at this point.

My wife and I have been married for eight years and separated for the past seven months.  After years of black/white arguments, irrational demands, explosions, cold rage, withheld affection, and expressions of hatred for me... .feeling caged up, controlled, manipulated, and dehumanized... .I cheated on her. (However, I believe have no excuses or justification for my actions) She found out and immediately wanted me out of the house and to divorce. She's not wanted to consider reconciliation. The time since then has been a drawn out black/white battle over whether or not we relocate near her parents (several states away).  She retained an attorney who specializes in collaborative divorce, and we went through several mediation sessions, but remained at an impasse on relocation the entire time.  It was clear to me that she was not telling her attorney that she had no intention of negotiating, but instead believes that because she is "the victim" she should have whatever she wants.  Finally, she dropped her attorney and picked up someone new and has told me she's going to file, since I am "forcing her to fight about it." (Any time she's mistreated me or acted poorly it's my fault).

This relocation issue is nothing new, however. It was a constant battle throughout our marriage as well. Of all the stalemate battles, that was the defining one. After a few months of marriage she began saying she thought we needed to move by her parents, citing reasons such as "family are the only people you can trust" and "family are the most important", etc.  However, she grew up in this area, and all of her friends and extended family are here. Her parents were a wedge between us from the beginning... .of dating. They had some kind of control over her, in that whatever idea they had instantly became her idea, which was then wrapped in black/white thinking and became an imperative for our marriage.  So, what kind of house we should have, where we should live, our jobs, how much money we keep in savings, where we shop, how we did just about everything... .was dictated by her parents.  She loved them, idolized them, despite their harsh treatment of her. She tiptoed around them, and the slightest disagreement with them would invoke their criticisms and withholding of love.  She and her mom are so close that they'd sleep in bed together when she went to visit them for a week or more (usually wanting to travel without me), and even at our house at times asking me to sleep in the guest room so they could snuggle all night. In counseling, she told our therapist she always felt "in the middle" and being forced to "pick sides" or "pick my husband over my parents".  Our therapist told her she's never in the middle and is always with her husband.  Without getting into more detail, I didn't feel comfortable with their destructive influence on our marriage and so I was never OK with relocating by them.  She insisted for five years that we move by them, and during that time our life was at a standstill. Because she refused to commit to staying in our city, I couldn't search for better career options, we couldn't buy a house, we couldn't starting a family, I couldn't pursue my Ph.D., she couldn't pursue better career options, we couldn't even become members at our church. Abruptly, in year three, after her mom began asking about grandkids, she demanded we have kids. Even after our first was born, she continued to demand we move and openly talked about leaving me (as she had since year two).  Finally, with our second on the way two years later, she decided we could stay here for the time being. We purchased a house, and the battle largely subsided.

Now, however, my wife is demanding that she relocate near them (actually taking their house, and they've bought a second house for themselves) with the kids. She wants me to go as well.  My resistance to the idea isn't about me finding a new job or losing my friends, church, and support network here (though that DOES matter to me), but primarily I do not want my kids (a pre-K and toddler) growing up enmeshed in her family.  She wants them to be the primary caretakers when she's preoccupied, so our kids have someone who will "pour into them" versus daycare or a babysitter who "won't care about them."  

The mediation sessions and all of our conversations in between have been completely useless. The issue, which was already black/white to her, is completely inflexible now.  She's been using this time to try to persuade me to "trust her", though has made no efforts to accommodate or even acknowledge any of my concerns about relocating. Finally, she's had enough and is prepared to file. She apparently understands from her attorney that this process will take longer than mediation, cost far more, be far more stressful, and have a lower likelihood of success.  To all that she simply shrugs.  

I fear for my children in this.  For all of our differences, we almost always kept things pleasant around our children.  They've had an exceptionally happy home, and we've always both been highly involved and engaged with them.  I've been living out of the house since February, and it's been very hard on the kids. They don't know a divorce is coming, yet, either.  I fear what a high conflict divorce may do to them, as well as to us.  

There is absolutely no way to reason with my wife. On any issue that's significant to her, her mind is instantly and irrevocably made up.  "There's nothing to talk about," is a favorite refrain of hers.  There never was before, and there certainly isn't now.  Anyone who's opinion she doesn't like, she removes from her life (such as her lawyer, who was encouraging her to find a negotiated solution), so there's no one to bring messages to her. Not that it would matter, she'd ignore them anyway.  

I really don't know what's coming.  I don't know how bad it will get.  I expect her to stop at nothing to get to her parents. Despite her always telling me and everyone we know that I am a GREAT dad (her emphasis), and that she's "not trying to isolate [me] from the kids; they need their dad", I will not be surprised at all if she turns to false allegations in order to win this battle, even if it results in my time with them being restricted.  

I don't know what help I need, or what to ask about.  My therapist introduced me to the BPD world after meeting my wife and connecting her with my descriptions of our marriage prior to the separation. I've read "Stop Walking On Eggshells" (every page is our marriage, it seems) and I'm working my way through "Splitting".  

I just don't want our kids to suffer (I don't want my wife to, either, and I want to be reconciled to her). Today, our oldest had preschool orientation. We went together as a family.  He was so happy. Then, leaving the school he asked if I could come home tonight (I put them to bed two nights a week and see them all day Saturday and every other Sunday... .no overnights), and I told him I couldn't (it's an off night). He got angry, and I had to talk him through it.  And my heart just breaks.  

EDIT:  I apologize if there are gaps or it feels like an incomplete story.  I'll post an "intro" or "background" post soon and link it here.  I'm too exhausted now to type up our full story, however. 

[ForeverDad]

Many of us here have gone through what you've described, dealing with the entitled ultimatums and demands.  You will get through it, given enough time, a good problem-solving lawyer and solid strategies.

If it wasn't infidelity then it (the cause of the marriage's implosion) would have been something else.  The marriage was already on the rocks and hugely dysfunctional.  Most states don't care much about that sort of adult behaviors.  Courts are not the marital policemen.  She is incensed but most states are No Fault and ignore that.

I am concerned that you don't have any overnights.  Why?  Is it just her demand and insistence?  If you made your case to the courts then overnights would be expected, well unless they had concerns about the safety of the children... .child abuse, child neglect or child endangerment.

More and more states are favoring equal time but often that's impractical or the courts still default to the patterns of the outdated Tender Years Doctrine that mothers are the best parents.  In my case the court went with the 'safe' route, asked for the work schedules and since I worked and my spouse didn't, she automatically got majority time in the temp order.  (This despite her having a case pending against her for Threat of DV.)

You probably have an uphill struggle to get substantial parenting time.  One of your first steps in a divorce is to get the court to set up a better schedule that includes overnights.  It needs to be at least alternate weekends and preferably 1 or 20 in between.  However, courts often make the in between visits evenings, but you should still try to get them as overnights.

Another issue is the length of the weekend visits.  Mu court was generous and gave me 72 hours on alternate weekends, from Friday 6 pm to Monday 6 pm.  Once my son was in school it was changed to Friday after school to Monday morning at school.  That reduced the in-person exchanges and conflicts.

I presume your residence is large enough for the children to stay overnights with you?  You don't want her have basis to claim your residence is literally a hole in the wall.  Also, any claim that "they're too young to be away from her" won't wash with the court.  Even breastfeeding is a poor claim.  She can do like millions of other mothers and express her milk into bottles and pass them along at exchanges.

Seek changes at resolve the problems.  Her expertise is making emotional claims and obstructing.  You need to demonstrate that you are seeking solutions.  Be careful that you don't mix too much appeasing in your solutions.  While you don't want to trigger her too much, you also need to focus on real solutions, strong boundaries that she should learn can't be trampled upon without consequences.

You'd have to speak with your proactive and experienced lawyer about how best to keep your kids near you in the current area.  Sometimes there are reasons to move but it sounds like she may have a hard time forcing you to comply.  Meanwhile don't 'gift' her any opportunities.

Collaborative divorce seldom succeeds with our type of cases.  The other spouse is simply too entitled and controlling to sincerely negotiate.  Settlements aren't unheard of, but they're almost always much later near the end of a divorce and usually just before a major hearing or trial.  Do you have a good attorney now?  Someone with both experience at trial and proactive with solid strategies?

In most cases a court ruling or order from a judge will be "less unfair" than the ex's demands.  Be aware, though, that judges prefer to have the parents settle to some extent and they don't mind letting the case drag on in hopes the parents will agree to equitable terms.  We need our lawyers to be aware that a "meeting of the minds" is highly unlikely and certainly not soon.

[takingandsending]

Hi Reality Mgmt and Welcome to bpdfamily. 

First off, well done on maintaining amicable relations with your wife around the children. That is very difficult to do considering the amount of stress you and your wife are both under.

but primarily I do not want my kids (a pre-K and toddler) growing up enmeshed in her family.  She wants them to be the primary caretakers when she's preoccupied, so our kids have someone who will "pour into them" versus daycare or a babysitter who "won't care about them."

I assume that your wife is a stay at home mom from this statement. Sounds very similar to my xw regarding wanting caretakers when she is preoccupied. Yet, you likely will here how from your wife how she is the primary caretaker. In actuality, I'd make a guess that you have been pretty involved in your kids' daily routines in addition to working full time. Is that close to your scenario?

I am in process of a collaborative divorce with my xw, simply in an effort to try to keep the high conflict divorce from clobbering my S11 and S6. But, as ForeverDad notes about collaboration, I have a large degree of skepticism that I will succeed without hiring a new attorney and going to court.

Do you currently have your own collaborative attorney? If not, you need to start interviewing attorneys and select one. You can seek one who works within the collaborative process if you want, but you should make certain your attorney has experience (including trial experience) in high conflict divorce cases with a personality disordered spouse. If you have been using your wife's attorney to represent both of you, or you have opted to not retain an attorney, that is a mistake.

As ForeverDad notes, you have moved out and already established a residential schedule precedent that is definitely not in your favor. Have you started a calendar or been documenting all of the times/activities you have spent with your two children? I am guessing that your wife may ask you occasionally to help with the boys when she is "preoccupied"? If you haven't already, start making records of all of that. I use Google calendar to track all of the times I have my sons as well as all of the little favors my xw asks me to take the kids. This can help you fight that uphill battle of restoring your time to a more equitable split.

Residential time is probably a heavily weighted factor in your state's laws regarding relocation of children in a divorce dispute. With no current overnights, I am worried that you won't be in a strong position to stop your wife. Again, talk to an attorney. Get to know what your state requires for relocation - usually there are multiple factors like custody time, is relocating parent moving to secure better work, is relocating parent moving to/away from area where there is family, is other parent able to maintain access with relocation, etc. Based on those requirements, you need to work with the attorney to develop your best strategy for appealing the request when it is made.

The good news: once one of you has filed for separation/divorce with the courts, both parties will be under a restraining order to remove the children from the area until the divorce is finalized. So if she is filing, that will actually buy you some time to develop a response and also to put your records together of time you have spent with the kids. Make sure to include any doctor's appointments an things that show you are more than just weekend warrior with your kids.

Keep posting questions. We are here to support you.

[RealityMgt]

To ForeverDad:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. You're right, the infidelity was just the particular fruit of the inner rot. It would've been something else, eventually. Even her therapist asked her, "well what did you expect?"

Regarding overnights, there's no reason a court wouldn't give them, and my attorney has suggested a few times I file so I can have that. There are a couple of reasons why I haven't, though. First, I've held out hope (perhaps foolishly) that we might reconcile. As a result, I haven't established a residency elsewhere (I stay with two families from our church), as that would, in her mind, equate to wanting to divorce. Second, she's FIRMLY opposed to overnights, saying the kids are too young and can't be "shuffled around." And since I've been hoping to reconcile, haven't wanted to cause that explosion from her yet.

Legally, nothing has changed for us. We have no separation agreement, we share the same bank accounts we always have, etc.

The informal plan we have in place is that I come to the house Mondays and Wednesdays at 5:00, make dinner for them, and put them to bed by 8:00.  Saturdays I am at the house from before they wake up until after they're in bed (my wife is a nurse, working 12's, Saturday only), and because our church involvement is important to both of us, I was able to eventually get her to agree to alternate Sundays. I pick them up at the house, go to church, and then spend the day "out" with them, returning them for dinner.  This requires having them nap in the car, but in recent weeks she's flexed occasionally and lets me nap them at the house while she goes out.

The plan she's proposed for our divorce is largely the same, with the addition of either (A) overnight Friday and returning the kids Saturday for dinner each week or (B) Friday and Saturday night every other week.  Given how involved I've been as a dad, and how much *my kids* want to see me, this little time seems ludicrously inadequate, but my fear is that a court-mandated schedule won't be much better. However, I hope there may be a case to be made for more balanced time based on mental health concerns/history and her documented (text, email, counselors) difficulty in disciplining the kids (spanked with a spoon and demanded I do it as well. I never complied). 

What she's repeatedly said through this process, to me and to others, is that because she's "the victim" or because my "bad choices led to this" , she should not have to "lose anything" (such as time with the kids) or compromise. Unfortunately, our (now former) church leadership reinforced this idea. The child psychologist she had us meet with to discuss our 4 year old son's anger (which showed up during this process) reminded her that these choices are about what's good for our kids, not what is "fair" between the two of us. After that meeting, my wife said she would not meet with any more counselors or psychologists and we could not include them in the process, because she is "a highly capable mother who doesn't need any 'professionals' telling her how to be a parent."

During the marriage, the entitlement took the form of "a husband should do whatever it takes to make his wife happy... .happy wife, happy life."  Practically, this played out as she should be free to do whatever she wants, at any time, without needing to discuss it with me.  Travel when she wants, moving by her parents, funding her hobbies and interests (but none of mine), choosing my clothes, how I spend my time, etc. Disagreements or resistance were seen as reasons for questioning if I loved her. 

You're certainly on the mark regarding emotional claims and obstructing. She's told falsehoods (I don't say "lie", because I'm fairly sure she believes everything she says... .which helps sell it) with everyone in her sphere, including her attorney, and will take any opportunity to launch into a very persuasive emotional monologue about how horrible I am, though at the beginning of all this she openly discussed with me and others how shocked she was by the affairs since she thought "we were doing the best we ever have," "I was finally in love with you," and "you are a GREAT dad." 

It's honestly feels like she has super powers of cultivating an alternate reality while simultaneously being impervious to truth and rationality. When a conversation comes to a point where truth is revealed and/or she can't control the dialogue, she simply says "Not productive!" and walks out of the room.  To others she claims I "twist her words" though she's never given an example of how I do that, and even says counselors do that, too, so she refuses to have them as objective third parties. She then tells people *I* refused to meet with *her*.  Everything is about her being in absolute control. When she's not able to have control, she tells everyone that *I* am controlling. 

My attorney assures me we'll get through this, that I'll likely fair better than agreeing anything she's proposed, and that relocation is unlikely to be the outcome, though it *IS* possible.

[livednlearned]

I want to join t&s in saying you've done a remarkable job keeping things amicable under the circumstances. That is not an easy feat! And I admire you for sticking to your conviction that the kids will fare better with some distance between their grandparents, who sound very narcissistic. Nothing like having a team of people working against you, making things doubly hard for the kids.

Our high-conflict divorces seem to do best when we shine light on the patterns of behavior. That typically means bringing in third-party professionals, like counselors and psychologists to evaluate. Has your lawyer recommended a custody evaluation as part of your legal strategy?

You mentioned that your son has a lot of anger. Did the child psychologist suggest any parenting strategies or relationship skills to help him? People with BPD tend to have a bottomless need for validation, and will be hellbent on extracting validation from their own kids, essentially reversing the natural parent-child role. As the healthy parent, you can make a huge difference validating how they feel, since they aren't likely to receive this from mom.

I Don't Have to Make Everything All Better by the Lundstroms has excellent insight and tips on how to do this, as does Bill Eddy's other book, Don't Alienate the Kids.

Chances are, there is already some alienation going on, as this tends to go hand-in-hand with BPD parenting, becoming even more noticeable with separation and divorce.

Whatever happens, we're here to walk with you.

You're not alone.

LnL

[ForeverDad]

Courts really like counseling.  She will not look good if she continues refusing to meet with counselors or blocks counseling for the kids.  (Of course, don't tell her that or she will change things just enough to make her look okay and yet still obstruct you.)

she's FIRMLY opposed to overnights, saying the kids are too young and can't be "shuffled around."

Couldn't be farther from the truth.  That's 100% her perception and entitlement.  Your compliance thus far allows her to remain in full control, with her tossing you some little crumbs to prolong her control.  Actually, the younger children, especially under 3 years of age, often get more frequent visits with the non-primary parent, though perhaps a little shorter.  That's to help the children bond better with the parent who sees them less.

The children are not too young for counseling, at least the one in preschool.  When I separated my son was months away from being 4 years old.  She enrolled him in local child counseling and managed to hide it from me for over 3 months.  That's when my lawyer told me courts like counseling.  Unfortunately she used it to get some professionals on her side even though they had never met me.  It took over a year to get that straightened out.

Did we tell you that when a marriage is improving and has a real future then it's right to share information to make it stronger.  BUT if it is dysfunctional or unhealthy then you have a right to confidentiality and privacy, especially because some information, if divulged to her, would be sabotaging to you.  So any strategies given by your lawyer, your counselor or here in peer support are meant for you, don't let her learn of them, turn them around and sabotage your good efforts to do the right thing for yourself and your children.

[RealityMgt]

Thank you all for your time and attention in these replies. I've been reading them but haven't had time to respond, between the evenings with the kids and trying to find a rental.

There's so much in our situation that it's hard to know what to discuss first.

I *do* feel pity for her, though, because I believe to some degree she isn't aware of how she is and I think at her core she's always been hurting. She was sexually abused as a kid (her story is that it happened one time) and to my knowledge she's never dealt with it. She told our therapist there was "nothing to deal with", though our therapist, and two others she's met, said it was readily apparent when they met her that there had been abuse in her past.

Nevertheless, I know I need to focus right now on protecting our children's best interests.

[formflier]

I want to add Kudos for focusing on calmness and putting your kids needs first.

I have personal experience in the "moving close to her family" thing.  It was hugely triggering to her (my wife) and changed a bunch of family dynamics.  I no longer have any relationship with her FOO.  Literally haven't spoken to any of them in... .gosh... .over a year now... .maybe 1.5 years.

The FOO is not the only issue in the move... .there are always goods and bads.

Based on my experience and what I've gathered from skimming your posts here... .I would let hell freeze over before I would move any closer to her family than you are now.

Hopefully I made myself clear.

It's all about the influences and examples that your kids are presented with.  I hope you are under no illusions where she learned to act the way she does now.  Her FOO.

If you continue to gain skills and continue to put your kids first (good job again!    ) and you remember that "courts love counseling"... .and you make sure your kids have really good therapists... .and you have a good therapist.

They have a "better than average" chance to grow into emotionally stable adults.

Thoughts? 

I'm sorry you are going through this.  I assure you that you are in the right place to get help.

FF

[formflier]

I don't like shuffling kids around either... .but it happens.

What if you got a place that you two could share and the kids stayed put?  Or if there was another church family she or both of you, could rotate through.

Is there an advantage to being the one that files?  In some states there are... some states no.

You need to completely understand the attorney's "possibility" of relocating thing.

I would think a court evaluator would quickly determine the dysfunction and put that in a report... .and squash a relocation.

FF

[RealityMgt]

Regarding her FOO (I learned a new internet word today!)... .I've known from the day I met them that something was amiss. They both expect her obedience and conformity. There is only their way to do anything in life. To do otherwise results in shaming, "suit yourself" passive aggression, withholding of a affection or communications altogether (at times her mom won't even FaceTime with our kids if she's upset with my wife), etc.  They also have no boundaries and expect transparency and access to all of her. Her mom had no problems walking in to our bedroom without knocking, and even when seeing we were in bed in our sleeping attire, wouldn't apologize or see any reason to leave. Our therapist at one point described it as emotional incest, particularly with her mom. They have no reservations about criticizing and intervening in our parenting. On multiple occasions I've had them pick up a child and take them from me while I'm working with them in a tough situation. Her dad will write either of us letters to convince us of what we need to do. One recent example:

From her dad to her, last summer, regarding my wife asking him to refrain from "helping" (oh the things he does... .) on our house projects when he visited:

I cannot tell you how hurt and disappointed I am in your behavior of this being what the second time that you shut us out of your family and at your age. It is so obvious in your behavior and attitude when you let Satan get hold of your heart for whatever reason. I asked your Mom yesterday is there anything that we have ever done intentionally since any of our children were born to hurt any of them! I cannot believe you are unwilling to follow the simplest commandment of honor your father and mother – but that is not on us.

If I were you I would spend some time in study and prayer before you hastily respond to this email. I have said enough. Do what you want! It is pitiful that I have to even write something like this.
Love Dad

Because I've been immersed in her and her FOO for nine years, so much of their unhealthiness doesn't shock me anymore.  I forget how abnormal their behavior is, until I mention it to people and see their shocked reactions.  Don't get me wrong, I know my FOO has issues as well, and I'm working through that with my therapist, and that's one of the key differences. I see a lot of the unhealthy dynamics and seek to change them, while she denies any unhealthy dynamics and seeks to embrace them.

I would LOVE the nesting approach. I am convinced that would be the best setup for our kids. The child psych she brought us to for my son's anger suggested this and said it's the only setup she would recommend.  My wife bristled at this suggestion and stated then and since that it's absolutely out of the question. She "needs her own place." One (of several) strange things about that meeting with the psych was that my wife knew this was the psych's position, but smugly told me she expected the psych to back her up on her parenting plan (the one we currently have). When my wife made the appointment, the psych told her she firmly supports nesting, yet when we were in the office and before we asked about parenting plans, the psych stepped out of the room, at which point my wife told me to ask my parenting plan questions so I could "hear it from her." I later met with the psych and relayed to her that my wife had said that. Her response was initially shock, and that's when I learned what she'd said to my wife on the phone prior to meeting.  She later commented that she thought my wife had a "dissociation with reality."

Even for the interim, my wife refuses to stay with family or friends at all in order to let me stay with the kids overnight at the house, claiming it's too disruptive for her and she "shouldn't have to sacrifice anything."

One direct question I have is:  I find it hard to nearly impossible to convince people of what she's like, because she's so social and well-connected. Even *my* friends don't quite get what she's like in private. They believe me, but haven't experienced her. Thankfully my therapist completely understands, to the point where she can often predict my wife's behaviors.  I feel trapped by that, by my wife's social connections. She's free all week to meet with people and doing so with the kids is such an easy "in" for her. I feel like she can easily have a large crowd of "supporters", and I, meanwhile have far less time to connect, limited opportunities to engage the kids in social activities, and am now carrying the stigma of "the cheater".  I feel like a child locked up at home, abused, while the abuser schmoozes the town, and even if I "broke out", I'd never be believed and likely just returned to my home for more abuse.

[formflier]

One direct question I have is:  I find it hard to nearly impossible to convince people of what she's like, because she's so social and well-connected. Even *my* friends don't quite get what she's like in private. They believe me, but haven't experienced her. 

So... .I would drop any and all efforts to convince other people.  Even if they ask. 

I would stick with things like "It's obviously and incredibly difficult time.  Your friendship means so much"  Then talk about the sports game and enjoy fellowship.

I break my life into two worlds.  A very small group (really professionals) and... say... .3-4 friends that I'm completely open with... .completely.

Even the friends I don't often vent or give details.  For instance the other day one of the friends was going to deposit some money (business deal... real estate) to me and he was like "I think I have your info on file from a few years ago"... .I gently said, I've got a new account with "just me" on it... .he chuckled and said "of course... " 

It was probably a few months before that he was talking about an issue with his teenager and I offered some strategies I've learned from my psychologist.  He then talked about a dispute with his ex wife... .we discussed how my wife and his ex were different... .and what was similar.

I see a psychologist weekly.  PhD type... very experienced.  Some weeks if stuff flares up, I see her more.  100% openness there.

Then... .the vast majority of my friends I am "normal".  I certainly don't paint my marriage to be something it is not... .but I don't ___ about it either.  Mostly... .I don't talk about it.

Then... .on here... I let it all hang out.

Here is the thing... .unless you have been in a r/s with a pwBPD... .or their FOO.  You won't get it... .you wouldn't believe they could be that bad.

So... I'm conservative Christian... .Baptist flavor.  It would appear you and the FOO are fairly religious. 

Try this on for size

"It's ok for someone to sin, if they are attempting to correct another and bring them back to the fold

Yeah... .read it again... .I heard it come from my wife's FOO... .her mother.  Basically... if my heart is in the right place... I can do whatever I want... .it's in the Bible.

Of course... .they can't and won't show you.

I would have had a field day with that letter you got (or email) from the FIL. 

I would suggest the following reply (I realize it's too late now... .but lets dream a bit)

"Thank you for confronting me on a sin issue.  There is nothing more important that ridding our lives of sin.  I'm so concerned that I don't see the sin that you are suggesting that I've moved on to the next form of Biblical discipline.  I've contacted the deacons at your church and we have meeting set up on Sep 1st at 7pm.  Does that time work for you?  Thank you for caring enough to confront sin that you see.   Love... .  The prodigal SIL"

Big picture... as you learn to "fight" BPD.  Stay friendly... .let them box themselves in.

In court... .shine the light... .consistently.  Be ready to create pressure while the light is shining on them.  pwBPD usually don't do well with pressure.  Be ready to settle on courthouse steps.  Many times they freak... .right before going to trial... .or even during a recess in trial.

They won't be reasonable.

FF

[takingandsending]

Okay. Let me just say that FIL's letter is one of the most offensive, shame riddled things I have read in a long while.     
I'm with you on this. Yeah, my FOO is no picnic in the park, but there is some serious pathology in that nicey, nice little gem of fatherly love. You are 1,000,000% valid in not wanting your children within several continents of that! I feel for your wife. Blech!

I would LOVE the nesting approach. I am convinced that would be the best setup for our kids. The child psych she brought us to for my son's anger suggested this and said it's the only setup she would recommend.  My wife bristled at this suggestion and stated then and since that it's absolutely out of the question. She "needs her own place."

One direct question I have is:  I find it hard to nearly impossible to convince people of what she's like, because she's so social and well-connected. Even *my* friends don't quite get what she's like in private. They believe me, but haven't experienced her. Thankfully my therapist completely understands, to the point where she can often predict my wife's behaviors.  I feel trapped by that, by my wife's social connections. She's free all week to meet with people and doing so with the kids is such an easy "in" for her. I feel like she can easily have a large crowd of "supporters", and I, meanwhile have far less time to connect, limited opportunities to engage the kids in social activities, and am now carrying the stigma of "the cheater".  I feel like a child locked up at home, abused, while the abuser schmoozes the town, and even if I "broke out", I'd never be believed and likely just returned to my home for more abuse.

So nesting is a great approach for the kids, but your wife is not going to manage it. I have lived through this very scenario and discussion this past winter and spring. Look at it this way - you know how your wife has traditionally responded to change, like maybe getting ready to take a trip, an upcoming event like a birthday, anniversary or holiday. Usually, any little stress or upheaval tilts the world of a pwBPD into danger world. So, now take nesting - coming and going from your home during your parent times, not being able to control your environment when your away, etc. It just isn't possible. My wife proposed nesting, told me I was ridiculous to stay in our house until a second household could be secured for the kids, pressured me to move out over and over, made me set a date when I would start nesting. When I found two places I could stay while not at the "nest" and was ready to go within the deadline set, it then turned into how she never expected me to ask her to find a place when she was not at the nest and I was putting under soo much pressure, and I was a monster. So, no. Nesting will not work with a pwBPD. Nesting to them means you come and go, but they stay put.

Regarding convincing others of her behaviors, the common advice on this board is that the courts generally don't care about the bad behaviors or actions of a spouse. What they do care about is their parenting behaviors. That is where your focus needs to be. Showing the court your good, consistent, responsible parenting behaviors. Pointing out her bad behaviors is not always the best strategy. If you have specific evidence of things that she does that puts kids' health or well being into jeopardy, that should be presented, but it has to be evidence based, not hearsay. Hope that helps.

[formflier]

Could nesting be in a court order?  Could that be used to show who complies and who doesn't? 

Honestly asking... .I don't think I've heard of it on here before.

Offhand, if you are proposing it, counselor is behind it, likely a court evaluator would report kids want it... .it would leave the pwBPD the odd person out... .with a court asking what the issue is... .


Hmmm... ?

FF

[ForeverDad]

Nesting or helicoptering in/out is probably impractical (unless you can pay the financial expense of 3 homes) and impossible to keep her from abusing (what would you do when she refuses to depart at the scheduled time or weasels/guilts her way back in or unilaterally decides to dictate new furniture, etc).

I'm surprised that a professional would say nesting is the only option.  What is best for the children is to see that Dad & Mom each have their own homes.  That would help them to separate your calm and stable management from her rants, raging, demanding, and controlling patterns.  Maybe nesting could work theoretically if there was little conflict but probably not since the arrangement would be prone to manipulation and abuse, and having 3 homes would be more expensive and exposed to more conflict than 2 homes with a clear authority separation.

Most of us have learned the hard way that our ex-spouse will do literally anything to sabotage us.  Having ourselves in the ex's perceived domain or the ex in our perceived domain is a recipe for disaster.  Yes, we could do it but not the high conflict ex that most here have.

[takingandsending]

Nesting keeps the kids in their home environment - less disruptive than having to go between two potentially both new environments. Great idea. Hard to do for regulated people in a divorce. Poorly regulated people in divorce - difficult and unlikely to work. I tried it and it failed before we ever started. Disordered thinker likely to think you are the one flying in and out of nest but nothing will change for them. Unequal from the outset.

[formflier]

I remember my Psychologist saying that nesting was "best" for kids... .IF... .it can be done well.

Then, knowing my wife the P wondered allowed if it would ever work and decided it likely wouldn't.  Certainly not the only option out there. 

Most of the divorced kids that I'm around seem to say that "never knowing where your stuff is"... .is the worst part of divorce.  Being at one house and wanting to get something from the other house.

FF

[flourdust]

Hi, RM! I am also in the middle of the divorce process with my BPDw.

As I read your story (and I commend you on writing very clearly), I grew increasingly concerned over the serious mistakes you are making, perhaps out of the desire to seem like a reasonable, accommodating guy. The truth is that in divorce, if you do not stand up for your own rights, nobody else will. And you are in a very bad position right now. Here's a rundown of the top issues I saw:

1. You have no separation agreement, and your informal arrangement gives you minimal parenting time. She has the kids all the time, and she has complete control over any request you make.

2. Without any overnights, you are basically ceding 100% custody to your wife. THIS IS A HORRIBLE PRECEDENT TO SHOW THE COURT, because it communicates that you are a disengaged, absentee father. (Yes, I read about you making dinners and all that -- that is minimal involvement compared to what they are used to seeing from engaged parents.)

3. You do not have your own residence. You could not even make a credible case in court right now for increased custody and overnights, because you have nowhere to live and certainly no room for kids. You need to fix this right now. (And forget about nesting -- that is a fantasy.)

4. Collaborative divorce only works when the parties are able to agree on the broad strokes of the arrangement and negotiate the details. You and your wife want to live in different states -- this is not a circumstance where collaborative divorce will work, unless one of you is bluffing. Stop wasting time in this process, get your own attorney, and go to court.

5. When you go to court, you need to file motions for things that will put you in a more persuasive position to win a favorable custody arrangement. The number one thing you need to is to file for a parenting plan that gives you a # of overnights you are comfortable with -- if not 50/50, then certainly more than just 1-2 nights every few weeks. You need a written separation agreement, ordered by the court if necessary.

6. You may end up asking the court to decide if your wife can move the kids out of state. Right now, you would lose that battle easily, because you have no place to live and spend minimal time with the kids. If you're on a more even footing, you can make arguments about disrupting the kids' lives, their schools, your parenting time, the negative influence of your in-laws ... .but right now, you have few arguments on your side.

This is how I see it. It's not too late to turn things around, but you are going to have to make some big changes.

[ForeverDad]

Wow, if only I could have written as well and concisely as flourdust!  Can you find a lawyer who would say that to you?  You don't want a forms filer or hand holder.  You need an experienced lawyer with solid strategies who is both proactive and a problem solver.

If you haven't yet, read SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder by William Eddy & Randi Kreger.  It's our #1 essential handbook.  To be informed is to be forewarned.

Other informative books include Divorce Poison by Richard Warshak and Boundaries by Henry Cloud.  There are many others that I'm not so familiar with, some very good lessons here on how to communicate with an ex-spouse and how to properly validate the children in age appropriate ways.  Some of the other boards here have articles and posts that delve into those aspects.

[GaGrl]

I agree with tourist and FD.

Here's the reality... .

Your wife could pack up your children and household goods and leave tomorrow, and you would have no legal standing to prevent it. You'd be left with an empty house and the need to start legal filings in, probably, two states.

So why not go ahead and get the protection of a temporary settlement agreement now?

[RealityMgt]

Hello all,

Reading and appreciating your thoughts and support. It's been super busy trying to find a place to leave, and with the holiday weekend.

One quick point about nesting. The psychologist suggested that before realizing my wife's BPD behaviors.  She *did* say it required a high degree of cooperation.  Once the psych and I met further, however, she realized nesting wouldn't work with my wife behaving this way. Without low conflict, high cooperation, she said the next best thing would be a close to even split of time between the two parent's homes. It was her belief, though, that with very cooperative parents, nesting was the best option for kids. She based this on her research on the subject, knowledge of families who've done it, research on the effects on kids of moving between homes, and her own experience of going between homes as a child of divorced parents.

I just wanted to clear that up. 

[RealityMgt]

Just a quick note after reading FD's nicely presented post and the follow ups below. My attorney has remained confident this whole time that my wife's position for relocation is extremely weak. I think this was my wife's attorney's feeling too, as she continually pushed her away from filing (which I think is what got her canned). 

Also, I am reading "Splitting", "Co-parenting with a Toxic Ex", and I have a copy of "Boundaries". I've gotten through most of "Eggshells," as well.

[formflier]

RealityMgt,

Thanks for clearing up those points.  It sounds like you have a good team.  Good teams are critical.

What do they say about YOUR current living situation and how the courts would perceive that towards granting parenting time?  I am very concerned that it is a disadvantage.

I hope your team is not "shooting for" 50/50.  I would hope you push for more and put your wife in the position of "proving" herself worthy.

That is generally where they PD "pops out".  It either benefits you or perhaps she gets help in order to "prove herself" wrong.

Asked another way, is your team going to "use" the PD to their (your) advantage?  What's the plan?

FF

[livednlearned]

I just don't want our kids to suffer (I don't want my wife to, either, and I want to be reconciled to her). Today, our oldest had preschool orientation. We went together as a family.  He was so happy. Then, leaving the school he asked if I could come home tonight (I put them to bed two nights a week and see them all day Saturday and every other Sunday... .no overnights), and I told him I couldn't (it's an off night). He got angry, and I had to talk him through it.  And my heart just breaks.  

How do you talk him through it?

These conversations are so painful  

[RealityMgt]

Hello all. I'm sorry I dropped off in the last month. Things got very, very busy and I've had to put a lot of things on the back burner.

My wife fired her lawyer and picked up a new one from a different firm in a different county. Her first lawyer, and my current one, are in the same county, but it's not the county we live in. Her new lawyer is in our home county, and I don't know if that makes any difference. My attorney found out the first one had been fired and told me to find a place to set up residence immediately. I did, and the next day my wife filed.  In the order I was served (on my day at home with the kids, of course), was a statement that neither of us could establish a residence without the other's written permission. Close call, there. She's also now moving for our state's equivalent of full custody.

So, I've been spending the last few weeks scrambling to find a place to live and then furnishing it and getting it set up as a home for my kids, as well as meeting with my attorney, filing my response, and counter filing for divorce to keep my wife "in the game", so to speak, if(when) she realizes she's in over her head and wants to stall to get her ducks in a row.

We've crossed over into full debt mode now, as well. All the savings are drained and the debt from lawyers and furnishing my place has been mounting. We have a joint card, still, and she's put her lawyer fees on it to max it out so I can't use it, though we agreed it was fine to use for kid stuff. 

Emotionally it's... .a double-edged sword. On the one side, having a bed is wonderful, and it's exciting to know my kids will be coming (hopefully soon, with the temporary orders), but on the other, it's the first time I've lived apart from my wife, and my first time since college to live without roommates. It's lonely. And it's a further tangible proof of the separation of divorce. I still do miss her. I feel like that's the strange thing about being with this kind of person... .I love her, yet I hate how much she hurts me.  It's something I need to keep working through with my therapist.

I asked my wife the other day why she's trying to limit the kids' time with me, if she's trying to hurt me, if she thinks it's bad for them to be around me, etc. Her only response was, "where is your personal responsibility in this?"  I take this to mean she's still looking at time with the kids as one of the forms of currency by which she makes me pay my debt to her. 

[flourdust]

Divorce is a mess, no question about it! Sounds like total war from your wife, but you are taking the right steps to protect yourself and your interests.

A couple of thoughts from your update... .

Did the court order come from your wife's new county of residence or your county? This may make a difference -- divorce is (as far as I know) determined by state law but administered by county family courts, and they can have different rules and procedures. Make sure you and your lawyer investigate family law procedures in whichever county has jurisdiction.

If you don't like the terms of the order that was issued by the court, you can file your own motion to make changes.

[ForeverDad]

I asked my wife the other day why she's trying to limit the kids' time with me, if she's trying to hurt me, if she thinks it's bad for them to be around me, etc. Her only response was, "where is your personal responsibility in this?"  I take this to mean she's still looking at time with the kids as one of the forms of currency by which she makes me pay my debt to her.

Blame Shifting.  She immediately shifts the blame from her to you.  That ranks right up there with blaming, control, emotional perceptions such as "I'm always right", etc.  Another thing to remember is that, especially now, you are unlikely to be unable to reason with her.  Asking searching, thought-provoking questions will be interpreted in her mind as open-ended questions to which she can divert topics and answer however she wishes.

Legally, she cannot end up with full custody, not unless the court agrees with her that there are serious issues with you.  To restate, the courts will not block your parenting unless it has serious concerns about you.  If she makes serious allegations, it's possible the court may order a quick psych evaluation of you before granting you a parenting schedule.  That brings up a sore point with me.  If one parent makes an allegation, then the accuser doesn't get scrutinized, only the accused does.  While I'm sure you would pass a quick psych eval, you really ought to want one that includes her too.  Your lawyer needs to speak up if things seem to go down that path and he needs to push for BOTH of you to get psych evals.  (Understand that it may not determine who is best to parent, usually it is a Custody Evaluation that digs deeper into what is best for the children.)

So it's possible that the court may want meet again after psych evals to make a "temp" order.  In our high conflict divorces, the temp orders often last a year or two (mine was about two years).  Yeah, not very temporary.  My temp order gave my then-spouse temp majority time and temp custody.  Why?  The magistrate asked just one and only one question... .What are your work schedules?  I replied I had a regular 5 day schedule.  She replied she "worked from home".  (Fact:  She couldn't work from home, which was anyway about $200 per month, because I had possession of the house in another court where she was facing a pending Threat of DV charge.)  So be aware the non-working spouse often is viewed to be the primary parent.

Another goal you need to state in court and on the record is that the family's finances are putting it in debt and she will need to look ahead to the transition into being a single parent and therefore find employment to assist in paying the bills, her bills.  Yes, it may be a little soon, generally financial issues are handled at the end of a divorce case, but probably best to get that discussed sooner rather than later.  She no doubt is thinking she can make charges and you'll pay the bills.  A disordered spouse's sense of entitlement and control is extremely high at the beginning of a separation and divorce.

Be aware that she will expect she gets the money and you get the debts.  Supposedly the debts and assets will be split correctly near the end of the divorce, but be forewarned that the lawyers are likely to skip over the extra moneys she spends or hides now.

It sounds like your lawyer may be an on-the-ball proactive attorney.  Good, that's what Bill Eddy & Randi Kreger recommend in their excellent SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder.  Also, your lawyer needs to set a problem solving example.  That's how the court needs to perceive you, not as just a complainer but more so as the parent presenting practical solutions.

[formflier]

Can you dispute the charges on your credit card?  Since it was not something you had agreed to?  Might be time to close out those joint debt things.

Thoughts?

FF

[livednlearned]

I asked my wife the other day why she's trying to limit the kids' time with me, if she's trying to hurt me, if she thinks it's bad for them to be around me, etc. Her only response was, "where is your personal responsibility in this?"  I take this to mean she's still looking at time with the kids as one of the forms of currency by which she makes me pay my debt to her. 

If she is dysregulated (and it sounds like she is), she will have a hard time grasping the emotional inner lives of loved ones, since her own emotions will consume her.

And part of that means that, to her, the kids must feel the way she feels, there is no other reality. Hers is an emotional logic, not a rational one.

She limits their time because she limits her time, if that makes sense. They can't have their own emotional reality separate from hers.

[RealityMgt]

Thank you all for your support.

If you don't like the terms of the order that was issued by the court, you can file your own motion to make changes.

I did.

Did the court order come from your wife's new county of residence or your county?

I think my post wasn't clear. We live in the same county, the county we lived in when married. My attorney and her first attorney were in a neighboring county. She recently fired hers and hired a new one in the county we reside in. I don't know if any of this means anything.

Hers is an emotional logic, not a rational one.

You hit the nail on the head.  My attorney has started to see this, as well,  and wants to focus on it with the custody proceedings.  (it's so hard to "catch it" and show it to people) For example, my wife put up major fight a couple of months ago about me wanting to take the kids out of state on a road trip to my parents.  One of her many bizarre reasons was that we could get stranded on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere, where human traffickers would find us, kill me, and abduct the kids. 

I am genuinely concerned for the coming winter. My wife has historically suffered from seasonal depression, and I know she's under significant stress right now. She apparently has stopped eating dairy, which she's said may be from stress, and is pretty worried about money (she's EXTREMELY fearful about finances, to the point where it's sometimes mildly debilitating from "normal life".  When we were first married she insisted that everyone should have $100k in savings at all times, as a minimum. And every purchase is scrutinized and agonized over. As I said, we're in full debt mode now, and the road is long, and her "plan" is to rack up debt and then pay it off with the sale of our house. She told me this.) On top of that, the kids WILL be staying with me some, and I know she's afraid of the loneliness of losing them.  I don't know how to watch for warning signs, so I'll be asking my therapist about that, as well.

Can you dispute the charges on your credit card? 

Yes, but that's going to cost lawyer time and I'm not sure what will be gained. 

She immediately shifts the blame from her to you.

Yes. The situation is 100% my fault, she says, so she should not have to suffer. She's said this openly many times, even to a child psychologist we met with. It's supported by the pastors at our former church. This behavior of blaming has been a constant from the start of our marriage. 

ME: why are you being so mean right now?
HER: I wouldn't have to be if your ideas weren't so terrible.

ME: you should stop throwing stuff around, you'll wake up the kids
HER: well, you shouldn't have got me so mad

Hundreds of these interactions over the years. And she spins it as "he's always blaming me for everything."

she cannot end up with full custody, not unless the court agrees with her that there are serious issues with you.

My attorney has assured me of this as well. My side will be bringing in a GAL or CE, and she will most certainly be under the microscope. Unfortunately, there's little that can be done in a similar fashion with her family. My attorney has also warned me that she will almost certainly remain the primary parent due to our work schedules (she works one day a week, not nearly enough to support herself).

I forgot to mention: we have our first court date set for about three weeks from now. She wanted it to be about finances. My attorney also requested we cover the temp. parenting plan.  Yes, she wants me to cover all her legal expenses as well (but she also said her plan is to use the profit from the house... .who knows... .). She initially said months ago that she wanted the house and everything in it, with the plans to sell it all and keep the proceeds. We would split savings 70-30 (for her), she said. I don't know if that's still where she is, but I think the reality of debt is hitting her, since she told me I should start selling things in order to pay for the furnishing of my apartment.

... .more so as the parent presenting practical solutions.

Yes, my attorney has been doing this with me, as well. Offer solutions at all times.

[formflier]

Dispute as in call the credit card company and dispute the charges, not get a lawyer to do it.

Also... .may want to consider closing joint accounts before she can do more damage.  You can close accounts (at least in my state) without asking.

FF