So how DO we ever get what we want?

[Depression = 72% of members]

I've known for quite a while that my husband isn't a "typical" borderline, but the more I read the more I realize how different he is. He definitely falls into the "petulant borderline" category, with a whole lotta self-destructive thrown in.

His main tactic is to stonewall, and when that stops working he will come to me and act like he wants to talk, but within minutes we're going in circles. I had already learned to just stop the discussion because honestly it hurts my head. Circles and rabbit holes. If he can't keep the circle going he'll divert to some bizarre thing like "what is the exact definition of that word in your opinion?" Ugh!

So my question is, when there's something that needs discussed, and you've been trying for 6 years to discuss it, and he has successfully managed to control the conversation for 6 years, is there any solution?

I tried to go back to school 6 years ago.

Well actually I tried to go back to school 8 years ago, and 3 days after I registered for classes he decided HE wanted to go back to school. After saying for 5 years he was never going to go back. I willingly dropped my plans to let him finish his degree once I was convinced he was serious, with the agreement that when he was done it would be my turn. It made more sense for him to go to school first given his career and salary, and for me to wait. I was ok with it.

So for two years he went back to school taking a crazy course load while working 50-60 hours a week. The kids and I made tremendous sacrifices for him to do it, and he definitely used it as a way to avoid us. But he did finish. Then it was my turn. He has admitted since then that the only reason he went back to school to finish his degree was to keep me from going back. He's capable of insight after the fact, and who knows, maybe he knew what he was doing when he did it.

Wow, did he ever sabotage me. And I'm not saying that lightly. Keep in mind I finished my first degree while raising my special needs twins on my own and working. I have drive and I can push through a lot. Trust me, there was nothing short of divorcing him that could've stopped his sabotage, and I had a newborn at the time. He now admits to sabotaging me on purpose.

Am I bitter about it? Yeah, some. But I don't throw it at him, I just want to go back to school! Every time I bring it up he plays his game. I know that if I go back right now he'll sabotage me again. Is there any way to get something *I* dream of? I've read and read and tried to figure out a solution.

He's in this partial hospitalization program right now, and we had a family meeting yesterday. The therapist's suggestion was to start spending time together and rebuilding intimacy. My husband is not very good at intimacy. At all. We have never in our entire marriage worked on anything together. Not even picking out a paint color. Nothing. If he can't have complete control he says "fine you do it," and he withdraws from the situation.

So our assignment was to figure out some quality time. We agreed to have a laid-back date night this weekend. Apparently he though that meant that all our problems were solved. He was sorely disappointed when tonight I asked him when we were going to approach a bigger issue with his therapist. "What do you mean? I thought things were looking up?" I guess he was thinking renting a movie this weekend meant I would forget about all the things I would like to do with my life!

Cue circular conversation, me stepping out of the conversation, and him shouting "Fine, get your stupid degree so you can leave me and GET OUT!"

This is one of many issues that need tackled. I know they're sick, and I know they let their feelings take over, but why do they think anyone would want to be in a relationship being treated like this? If I'm overlooking a skill I can use, or if I'm handling this all wrong, please point it out.

[Graceinaction]

I've known for quite a while that my husband isn't a "typical" borderline, but the more I read the more I realize how different he is. He definitely falls into the "petulant borderline" category, with a whole lotta self-destructive thrown in.

His main tactic is to stonewall, and when that stops working he will come to me and act like he wants to talk, but within minutes we're going in circles. I had already learned to just stop the discussion because honestly it hurts my head. Circles and rabbit holes. If he can't keep the circle going he'll divert to some bizarre thing like "what is the exact definition of that word in your opinion?" Ugh!

So my question is, when there's something that needs discussed, and you've been trying for 6 years to discuss it, and he has successfully managed to control the conversation for 6 years, is there any solution?

I tried to go back to school 6 years ago.

Well actually I tried to go back to school 8 years ago, and 3 days after I registered for classes he decided HE wanted to go back to school. After saying for 5 years he was never going to go back. I willingly dropped my plans to let him finish his degree once I was convinced he was serious, with the agreement that when he was done it would be my turn. It made more sense for him to go to school first given his career and salary, and for me to wait. I was ok with it.

So for two years he went back to school taking a crazy course load while working 50-60 hours a week. The kids and I made tremendous sacrifices for him to do it, and he definitely used it as a way to avoid us. But he did finish. Then it was my turn. He has admitted since then that the only reason he went back to school to finish his degree was to keep me from going back. He's capable of insight after the fact, and who knows, maybe he knew what he was doing when he did it.

Wow, did he ever sabotage me. And I'm not saying that lightly. Keep in mind I finished my first degree while raising my special needs twins on my own and working. I have drive and I can push through a lot. Trust me, there was nothing short of divorcing him that could've stopped his sabotage, and I had a newborn at the time. He now admits to sabotaging me on purpose.

Am I bitter about it? Yeah, some. But I don't throw it at him, I just want to go back to school! Every time I bring it up he plays his game. I know that if I go back right now he'll sabotage me again. Is there any way to get something *I* dream of? I've read and read and tried to figure out a solution.

He's in this partial hospitalization program right now, and we had a family meeting yesterday. The therapist's suggestion was to start spending time together and rebuilding intimacy. My husband is not very good at intimacy. At all. We have never in our entire marriage worked on anything together. Not even picking out a paint color. Nothing. If he can't have complete control he says "fine you do it," and he withdraws from the situation.

So our assignment was to figure out some quality time. We agreed to have a laid-back date night this weekend. Apparently he though that meant that all our problems were solved. He was sorely disappointed when tonight I asked him when we were going to approach a bigger issue with his therapist. "What do you mean? I thought things were looking up?" I guess he was thinking renting a movie this weekend meant I would forget about all the things I would like to do with my life!

Cue circular conversation, me stepping out of the conversation, and him shouting "Fine, get your stupid degree so you can leave me and GET OUT!"

This is one of many issues that need tackled. I know they're sick, and I know they let their feelings take over, but why do they think anyone would want to be in a relationship being treated like this? If I'm overlooking a skill I can use, or if I'm handling this all wrong, please point it out.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Radcliff]

Graceinaction, wow, you've worked hard and put up with a lot!  I did two degrees part time while working full time and with small kids, so I know something of the iron gut it takes to power through that, but my wife took a huge load and did not sabotage, so I think you're several levels above me.  And how terribly frustrating it must have been for you and the kids to sacrifice so much and for him to not finish.

It sounds like you said he was worried that you'd get your degree and leave him.  Did I read that correctly?  There have been a couple of other members whose stories had similar elements -- finishing an education or emerging from an illness set off their pwBPD's fears of abandonment.  My only thought is that if you can address this fear, perhaps you may make headway. 

One other thought is that while he definitely shouldn't think that one date night solves everything, you might want to consider whether one date night gets him ready to discuss a topic at the top of the hot list.  I have often found myself getting things to a good place with my wife, only to put us back on shaky ground by talking about something that I *really* want before we are ready.  It is terribly frustrating, I know, and is not fair at all to you.

Wentworth

[Graceinaction]

I completely understand what you're saying in regard to waiting to discuss the "big stuff," but most of it has been waiting for so long, and I've learned that waiting for a good time doesn't seem to affect anything. It doesn't matter when I bring it up, I've tried every scenario I can think of!
Plus, my thought was that we should address at least one of these big issues while he's still in partial hospitalization and has a therapist and group feedback daily. If we could successfully navigate one big issue while he has all this support, maybe it would help him establish some tools to use in the future. Instead, when they went around in the group today to talk about each person's "issue" for the day, my husband's comment was "We planned some time together and things are looking up!"

I don't want to be a nag, but geez, he seems to think renting a movie will solve all our problems. I'm happy to spend time together, but I've been fighting for every single "right" as an individual for 10 years. He sees every interaction as a power struggle, and every single thing I do or say is threatening to him. I know you're not supposed to say "always," but it honestly is true in our marriage. He is threatened by everything.

I read stories on here about people's spouses dysregulating every six months or every few months. My husband does it at least once a day, most days. He will typically have 1-2 days a week he doesn't, but the other 5-6 days a week he does at least once, sometimes 2-3 times, or sometimes it just lasts days-weeks.
Does anyone else have a spouse like this?

[snowglobe]

Dear @Graceinaction, you are definetly not alone is your quest for answers. I’ve been married to my uBPDh for 16 years, for him the splitting are almost daily occurances with a rare insight at what kind of destructive force it brings to our relationship. Just like you, I’be strived for educating myself, and just like your husband he denied me of this opportunity in fear of me leaving him. We’ve lived like that for a while, until I introduced a higher purpose for my edu action. We also have a special needs child, and a psychology degree would bring some insight for his condition and into the future. It has actually become my safety vest, I cling to it as a way of keeping my sanity. 30% of our life is filled with traveling, expensive gifts, nights in the town and him clinging to me for dear life. However the remainder 70% is filled with rejection, hurt, jealousy, possessiveness and his aggression. I won the small battle of going back to school, however I’m not kidding myself regarding the severity of his diagnosis. I hope you can find a way of obtaining your dream degree

[Graceinaction]

I've tried the higher purpose thing also. My husband's income was recently cut by 2/3's due to having to take a medical retirement. We just bought a farm (his lifelong dream) 18 months ago, so our mortgage is quite a bit higher than it used to be and now we're suddenly below the poverty line with 5 kids. I've explained that an advanced degree would create many more opportunities for me, and a more flexible work schedule for me to be home with the kids while working. He knows that, but control trumps everything to him.

We're surviving and I've taken a part time job, which he is resentful of also, because it is threatening to him. Everything is threatening to him. He could be farming and bringing in additional income but he says he's scared.

It's really hard to not be bitter. He wanted this farm so badly and now he won't do anything. I've been patient and supportive because he also has bipolar 1 and PTSD. It can take a long while to recover from a major break down, which he had a year ago. But his meds are finally straightened out, he's getting good treatment, and he has lots of resources he isn't using. I've asked him to try to do outside work just an hour or two a day. It would be good for him! But it brings up bad feelings he says. Feelings rule his life in a very negative way.

He has no fun. Nothing makes him laugh. Laughing makes him feel vulnerable. Sex make sure him feel vulnerable. Buying me a card for our anniversary makes him feel vulnerable. This is a man that worked 50-60 hours a week since he was 17 years old, and now won't work 1 hour a day.

His parents blame me, and I have to wonder if I've done something to create this huge shift. But I know he had many symptoms long before me. His longest relationship before me was 6 weeks long, and he only dated 4 girls before me. And he was 30 when we got married! He convinced me it was because he was focused on his career. Now I see it as a big red flag. But he clearly wasn't afraid to be alone then?

And for the first 7-8 years of our marriage there was the clear push/pull behavior. For the past few years it's all been pushing. He tells his therapist he's staying in treatment because he wants to hang on to me. He swears up and down he doesn't want a divorce, he says he loves me. But there's never any pull, only push. It feels very much like he's seeing if I love him unconditionally. How much he can get away with. I set firm boundaries, but he never shows any desire for anything good in the relationship.

I've asked him if he's seeing how much I'll take, and he says yes. He says that it means I really love him if I stay. What do you do with that? He doesn't have any motivation to love ME, just to see how much I love him. And I'm nearing the end of what I'll take.

My plan is to prepare to leave. It'll take a long time because I'm determined to get what I want before I leave. Maybe that sounds selfish, but if I walk out now I have nothing. I have a useless degree in a field I never liked that has moved on while I stayed home to raise our kids. So I think I'm going to figure out a plan to get my second degree that I've always dreamed of. If I have to lock my textbooks up so he can't get to them, and physically leave the house every evening to study where he can't interfere, I will. And if it takes me 3-4 years of that, so be it.

In the meantime, I won't call it quits, but I'll do my own thing. Which will be hard because he's here 24/7 now. But I can do it. If he really gets help and sees it through and makes good progress, then I'll have my degree and my marriage. If not, at least I will be walking away with more than I would be now.

What do you all think? Is this doomed to failure? Or a sound plan?

[snowglobe]

@Graceinaction, only you know what is best for your family, however I do think that putting energy and focusing on self improvement will give you the necessary strength and energy to fight for your relationship. It’s kind of like airplane metaphor, you need to put in your own mask before helping anyone else. I do too notice similar pattern in my own relationship, he doesn’t work hard at it, always expecting me to do the mending, fixing and repairing when things get tough. My parents live in with us to help raising our kids while I’m obtaining my degree. Yesterday he was splitting under duress from work and playing on a stupid Phone game, which makes exasurbates his mood swings. He called me downstairs and started berating and cussing at me. My mom happened to be there too. I saw this horror in her eyes, the kind of look any parent would give if their child was under an attach. She politely asked him to stop doing it in front of her, she is an older woman, her heart can’t take it. He told her that it’s her problem and he is in his own house to do what he pleases. Later in day he told me that she has to move out... .I can’t explain the sadness and fear that I have for my parents to move out. I’m certain that the boundary and a safety net they provided for me is going to be violated. Almost certain that abuse will Escalade and he will start hurting me physically. He always threatens to do that when I don’t back off at him. What happens with your dynamics when things get escalated?

[Radcliff]

Graceinaction, it feels to me like you have a pretty balanced approach to all of this.  I am reading sadness and frustration in your tone, but not too much bitterness and anger.  The latter would certainly be understandable, but it makes sense that you're not expressing too much of it, since it's hard to carry the load you're carrying with a lot of bitterness and anger.  That said, watch out, since you may also be stuffing some of your feelings in order to cope, and that takes a toll.

You are not responsible for his situation.  I think you know this, but it's easy to doubt yourself when you're getting constant messages from someone who can't take responsibility.

Your plan to continue your education despite the obstacles sounds like a good one.  You will feel like you are moving forward to create a better future.  You will also create options for yourself to be independent if need be.  I see you've carefully thought out when to discuss the "big stuff" and it seemed to make sense to broach that issue when he had support.  You're now discussing taking an alternate path available to us -- proceeding forward with a plan despite the fact that our pwBPD is unable to discuss it.  Consensus is a helpful thing and a good first goal, but if the other person won't come to the table, independent action is an alternative.

The plan you are proposing is a long term one.  You will need support.  I'd encourage you to become a regular visitor here.  You will get support, and in very short order I think your advice will be helpful to others.  Do you have any friends or family who you can talk to about what's going on?

How do you respond when your husband feels threatened?  Are you able to give him some space to self soothe, or do you feel responsible for making him not feel threatened?

Snowglobe, I am so sorry to hear that the support of your parents in your home has been threatened.  Perhaps you'd be willing to make a post about that so you can get some more support?

Wentworth

[Graceinaction]

Yes, I'm going to need support. Today has been a heck of a day. Apparently my husband went to his partial hospitalization program and told everyone that our plan for spending some time together this weekend wasn't enough for me, and I had decided to get my degree and when I'm done divorce him.

I know I don't need to defend myself to you all, but that is not even close to the truth. I was looking forward to our date night, and I never said I was going to get my degree and divorce him. He said I would leave him as soon as I finished my degree, and I told him I hoped it never came to that and I would have a good marriage and a degree by the time it was all said and done.

But it was too late. He was already in temper tantrum mode and he managed to get a big pity party from his group therapy.

We had a family session Friday, and his therapist said she was doing her best to call him out on his BS, so this afternoon, after I spoke to my husband and he told me what he said to the group, I called the therapist and left her a voicemail telling her the truth of what happened. It's not that I care what any of them think of me, I don't even know them. But if she really believes in calling him out, now she can. He doesn't know I called. I have no idea if that was an ok thing for me to do, there aren't any rules for this. It feels co-dependent, as I've always tried to stay removed from his therapy.

How do you know when to step in? He claims he wants desperately to get better, but he acts like someday he will find a magic therapist who will wave a wand and he'll be fixed. When faced with doing any work he regresses every single time. And that's why I don't hold much hope for DBT. I've read it's a lot of hard work and so far he hasn't put in even minimum work.

I've cried a lot today. I'm bitter. I'm angry at myself for being in this situation. I'm angry at him for not wanting better for himself and his family. I'm bitter that the life I thought we would have is crumbling and I can't do anything to save it. Yes, he doesn't have all the power, but he has the power to take away the life we've worked so hard for. We aren't "typical." We have an organic farm, homeschool our kids, and our dream was for me to stay home full time with them. Now I'm working, he's not helping with much at all, and our poor kids are losing stability. So yes, I'm angry. I keep trying to find ways to hold this together for me and the kids and my options aren't great.

He has admitted that the way he knows I love him is when he treats me badly and I stay. And his treatment continues to get worse. Why would anyone sacrifice their entire way of life in this way? This is not who I married.

Tonight is a resting night. I'm emotionally exhausted. I spent all afternoon being told that I've lost touch with reality and I'm the crazy one, and that I did indeed say that I'm going to get my degree and divorce him. But then he says he said that he supports me going back to school 100%. I took the bait and told him that statement doesn't even fit into the conversation he says took place. Doesn't matter. Logic doesn't matter.

But I can see now that at this point he is willing to destroy the marriage if that's what it takes to keep me from going back to school. He's trying to back me into a corner where I can't stay, and if I leave I don't even know how I'll support myself and the kids, let alone go back to school. Yes, I did it once, but with 2 kids and not living in the middle of farm country! And I had more resources and less mouths to feed, and not so many doctors appointments for the kids. I can't even manage a full time job now, I'm struggling with a part time job.

I know I sound negative. But trust me, I've tried to figure out any way possible. I'm still working on it. But he can keep this up. And if he does I won't be able to stay. I won't survive it. Today has been too much.

I'm sorry. I'm trying so hard here.

[Tattered Heart]

My H used to dysregulate at least 2-3 times per week. I began to really focus on myself and my response to him and things changed immensely. He dysregulated on me this week for the first time in probably 3-4 months and that was partly because it was accidentally my fault. (Long story. There's a post about it).

It sounds like your H told you exactly why he fears you going back to school. He is worried that you will leave him. Who does he think you will leave him for? Another student? The professor? THat you won't have time for him?
Better $ once you graduate? Because you'll see that the relationship is unhealthy by being around others? There are so many things that are a threat to him.

So... .make them nonthreatening. I think using DEARMAN might help here.

YOu do have to wait for the right moment. If he is up pacing around, acting agitated,et  it's probably not the best time to approach the subject. I always always always start hard conversation with a ton of validation first. Then I move into SET and DEARMAN.

Validate his worries. Validate his fears. Validate that he thinks of you leaving him. Share with him that even though you want to go to college your relationship is still important to you. Share with him HOW you will make sure that your relationship remains important and that get gets time with you. Remember... .its not about what reality is. It's about what he feels. So approach the feelings before you approach the reality. Can you try practicing the conversation here?

What do you want to major in?

[Radcliff]

Grace, Tattered Heart had some great suggestions.  Have you tried any of those techniques yet? They are not magic, but they can help. 

I've cried a lot today. I'm bitter. I'm angry at myself for being in this situation. I'm angry at him for not wanting better for himself and his family. I'm bitter that the life I thought we would have is crumbling and I can't do anything to save it. Yes, he doesn't have all the power, but he has the power to take away the life we've worked so hard for.

Oy, I am so sad that you are feeling this way.  Many of us here can relate to every word that you have written.  In a way, what you had dreamed of has been stolen by an illness.  It is a terrible loss.  You are not alone 

He has admitted that the way he knows I love him is when he treats me badly and I stay. And his treatment continues to get worse. Why would anyone sacrifice their entire way of life in this way? This is not who I married.

It doesn't make sense, but then in a way it makes perfect sense.  They don't believe anyone could love them, and fear abandonment, yet treat us badly and push us away because if we stay that will really prove our love, but it is never good enough, and they are risking the very abandonment they fear.  Which gets us back to, it doesn't make sense!

Tonight is a resting night. I'm emotionally exhausted. I spent all afternoon being told that I've lost touch with reality and I'm the crazy one, and that I did indeed say that I'm going to get my degree and divorce him. But then he says he said that he supports me going back to school 100%. I took the bait and told him that statement doesn't even fit into the conversation he says took place. Doesn't matter. Logic doesn't matter.

No, logic does not matter.  It is all about emotion.  Keep trying Sympathy-Empathy-Truth when you can.  You are *not* crazy, but being told you are crazy by someone who is free from the constraints of logic is enough to drive you, well, crazy!

I'm sorry. I'm trying so hard here.

Do not apologize.  We know exactly how hard you are trying.  You are a hero.  The hand you have been dealt is ridiculously difficult and unfair.  You are handling it with... .wait for it... .Grace.  I am using humor, hopefully not too much, but in all seriousness you are in fact Grace in action.  Remind yourself that you are a good person in a terrible situation.

Have you had a chance to read any books on BPD yet?  If so, which ones?

I, like TH, would love to hear what degree you're after!

Wentworth

[Graceinaction]

I'm back. Every single night I want to get online and update, and ask for advice, and I'm just too tired. Plus I just want to zone out and try to forget the mess for a little bit. But I really need to work on learning everything.

First- I want my degree in clinical counseling! That has been a dream of mine for a long time, but now it makes me feel foolish at times. But I know I'd be good at it. I can help other people, just not myself! Not yet anyway. But I'm determined to figure all of this out.

I have to admit, today was bad. My husband is back to living in his car, and today I didn't have to work, and I spent too much of the day crying and trying to get my head straight. During war battles (not to make light of war, but it truly feels like he's waging war on me) I sometimes struggle to stay in reality and not get pulled into the delusions/lies or whatever it is that's happening to him. I can be this super strong go-getter, and then I just crumble for a while. And then I pull myself back together and keep going. But it's obvious I'm going the wrong direction.

I really am trying to learn the skills. SET is easy for me to remember. I've been using it, and not having much success. He seems too far gone right now. It doesn't matter what I say or how I say it, it gets twisted into some dark meaning and he's a victim of my super controlling ways. It's really hard to to be furious when he accuses me of being controlling when I'm not even "allowed" to wear makeup or dress how I want. Just to clarify- I do wear makeup now, but that was an 8 year battle that I didn't even know I was fighting for most of it! And I decided that tomorrow I will be dressing how I want again. Period.

I'm slowly working on re-reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells." I read it years ago when I was having major issues with my grandmother. She's diagnosed with something, I'm not sure what, but I'd bet the house that she has BPD. I cut her out of our lives 7 years ago and have never regretted it. She's another severe case. One of those people that only you in this group would even believe the stories! And growing up with her a daily part of my life has definitely influenced my tolerance of the behavior now.

Anyway, there's so much to explain and I don't even know how to cover it all. Last week I set a boundary that he actually didn't cross, but he promptly (the very same day) told another big lie to his Partial Hospitalization group. When I found out I told him that I wouldn't be going to the scheduled family meeting Wednesday (yesterday) unless he cleared up the story with his group. I feel that it's not my role to go into the family meeting and "rat him out" for all the lies he tells all week about me. That's more of a parent role, and I've stepped out of that. I've never been ok with that role, but he's a very good manipulator and has been good at getting me into that role without me realizing at first.

So he spent all weekend upset with me and telling me that it wasn't a lie, it was "his side of the story," and that I just want to control him and force him to tell my side. But it was a blatant lie! It wasn't his side. He told me on Saturday that the reason he lied was because he knew the group would be upset with him because they were when they found out he had been lying about the college thing, and he didn't want to deal with it. So he clearly knows he should lying, but since Saturday he has stuck with "this is my side." It seems like he actually believes it!

So Monday I told him I wouldn't be going to his doctor appointment on Tuesday because I was stepping out of the situation until he stopped lying and faced his issues. His response was to rage and berate me, and say awful things in front of the kids. I admit I was very upset, crying. I tried so hard to keep it together, but he will keep going until I break. So he left, and when he came back he wasn't calmer, he kept raging. He refused to leave, so I told him I was taking the kids to a shelter. That's when he packed his things and left, and now he's the victim. He's spinning the story that I am going to divorce him and I only wanted to go to a shelter to use in court against him in a divorce. Which is ridiculous because I don't even talk about divorce, he does.

The frustrating part of all of this is that he's in Partial Hospitalization and getting therapy daily, but he's using it to validate the lies. He's making himself out to be a big victim in front of the whole group and none of them know any better. So the past 3 weeks, since the program started, he's gotten much worse. Is this common? Do they ever start getting better?

Supposedly his group leader has been trying to find him a DBT program and there aren't any that will take our insurance. I wouldn't have a major issue paying out of pocket if we can come up with the money, but what if he does the same thing? He says he wants to go. He reading "I Hate You Don't Leave Me," and has been slowly working his way through the DBT workbook on his own. But he continues to get worse.

Tonight I'm hoping to look for videos on YouTube showing the skills here. I think that will help me understand. I'm very visual, and I'm really not understanding a lot of it. I read it and seem to understand it, but I try to rehearse it in my mind in a typical scenario with him and then I realize I don't understand.

Anyway, so he's living in his car. Spending 6 hours a day getting positive reinforcement for abusive behavior. Fantastic.

[Graceinaction]

Tattered Heart, I keep going back to DEARMAN and trying to remember all of it. The issue seems to be that because of his PTSD (maybe? I'm thinking that's the main reason) he has hair-trigger responses to almost any interaction. Now that I think of it, it's more likely a combination of all of his issues.
But we're at the point where even a conversation about what time I'm leaving for work breaks down into nastiness. He is extremely sensitive to everything at this point. I can say something as benign as "How was lunch?" And it turns into a rage over how I'm trying to control what he eats.

He is actively manipulating and controlling everything and everyone around him. Seriously, there is no interaction that doesn't involve grasping for control at this point. It would be funny if it wasn't so destructive. He's completely spiraling out of control. He's done this before, and eventually he settles down and wants to come home. At which point I set my boundaries. Like "You can come home as long as you are actively in counseling." And he always starts out with good intentions. When the VA cut his healthcare and counseling/support groups, he cried and was so upset. He acts like he truly wants to get better. Then he gets in his session and he just goes right back to manipulating. It's an ongoing pattern.

So this is probably my biggest question: When this episode ends and he wants to come home, what do I do? I can't force him to get better. But it's like my mom says, he's like a drug addict that needs more accountability. But how do I manage that without being codependent?

[Tattered Heart]

I think it's important for you to determine what to do when he wants to come home. What do you want to do?

Take some time to look at your values. Your Boundaries are based on your own values, not on setting rules or consequences on other people. Our boundaries are a part of us, what we are responsible for, and what we expect for our own lives. If something is valuable to us, then we don't let others violate what is valuable. Does that make sense? So what do you value for your home? And what do you need to do to begin showing others, your kids, yourself, the outside world, and your H what you value? I think you'll find your answer about what to do about him coming home in the answer to those questions.

It could be possible that your H has become addicted to rage. If this is a coping mechanism that he has used in the past, it will take breaking this cycle in order for him to stop using it. Part of this is his responsibility, but you can make a change in this too. Next time he begins to rage, send the kids outside, and instead of threatening him or telling him "I'm going to a shelter", just tell him, "I'm leaving. I'll be back when things have calmed down." And walk out the door. It's not up for discussion. It is just a truth. If at all possible, I would try to leave BEFORE it gets to rage, at the point where maybe he just starts to yell or call names or starts getting worked up. Leaving at an earlier moment may even prevent you having to get to the point of going to a shelter. You may just go for a drive, take the kids to the park, or go for a walk.

My H used to rage at me quite often. It had become a bad habit. Stress would build and build and it was as if he needed to rage out in order to release the pressure. It left me frightened and so scared about what to do. I knew I needed to leave the house because it put me in danger, but I didn't know how he would respond. The first time I walked out I was so scared. But I did it. He was raging so badly that he didn't even know I was gone for almost 10 minutes. I heard him continuing to yell and throw things as I pulled out of the driveway. I was shaking. But as I drove towards town I realized that I was safe. I was not witnessing his anger. And that gave me the courage to do it again. And over time my H realized that when he raged, I left the house. He wasn't getting the desired effect from it. I wasn't scared anymore.
 

[Radcliff]

Hi Grace,

Check out these links, I don't think we've shared them with you yet:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/setting-boundaries
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=94125.20
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368

Boundaries take practice, but they are worth it!  As TH said, they are about what you do, not what you want the other person to do.  And you want the consequence to be directly related to the problem (like leaving with the kids to protect you all from a rage).

Wentworth

[Graceinaction]

I honestly didn't think I had any issue setting boundaries. Maybe I do. I've used boundaries for years with family members that are dysfunctional just fine, and my therapist always said I did it right.

In the example I have before, I said I am not ok going into family meetings or doctors appointments and defending myself against all the things he says in between. So if he continues to tell lies, I won't go. And I didn't go. I've told him several times that I don't care what the people think about me, and I honestly don't. But I am very busy trying to take care of 5 kids, a farm, homeschool, and work part time. Going to his appointments requires me to drive an hour to our hometown to leave the kids with their grandparents, diving to the appointment, picking up the kids, and driving home. It is at least a 4 hour ordeal, and I'm not willing to waste the entire appointment ratting him out. There is no arguing or him defending himself. It's not like a typical "his side/her side" thing. He makes up crazy stories to his providers and they go into the appointments wanting to hash out our "issues" like me going to bars all night or me trying to control what he does. He sits there like a child being found out at a parent teacher conference. It's so weird, because it seems like he almost like always it. It grosses me out because it's just another way I feel like he's trying to put me in the parent role.

We've been through this for 2 years now. So I've made it clear several times that if he wants me to go to these appointments, he has to be honest with the providers before I'm called in so we can discuss actual issues.

Just to be clear- I don't go to bars. Ever. I don't stay out all night. I can count on one hand the number of times I've even gone out to eat with a girlfriend without him in our entire marriage.

As far as taking the kids and leaving, that's not simple either. One of our children is severely handicapped. I can't just round them all up and leave. There are lots of times I see him getting ramped up, and as long as I know he's safe, I'll leave. But once he's raging I can't leave the kids with him, and I can't just leave with them. Usually he will leave, but every once in a while he refuses to and that's what he did earlier this week. That's why I said I would go to a shelter. Because if he's going to continue to rage and refuse to leave, I don't have a lot of options.

I really think I have a good handle on boundaries. And a lot of the time he will not cross them. But sometimes he does, and I'm pretty good about sticking to my guns. Where he gets me is that he'll not cross the boundary I set, but he'll passive aggressively do something else and I don't find out for a while.

Everything he does is about control. The past few months have been eye opening for me seeing how far he's willing to go. He seems fully willing to destroy our life just to have this sense of control that doesn't actually exist. It's crazy to see in action. It is pervasive across all areas of his life, and he seems to have no insight.

I've read that people with BPD are good at playing dumb, but they're not. That confuses me. Is he really aware of what he's doing? Is he really willing to destroy everything? For what?

We have never been wealthy. When I talk about losing everything, I'm not talking about cars or a big house. But we've poured everything into building a life I thought was both of our dreams. We are the least materialistic people I know. We've made huge sacrifices to homeschool our kids and raise them on an organic farm. To live by our principles. To follow the path God was leading us on. Our kids have never been to school. They are living this amazing life but with a father that is actively trying to throw it all away. If he doesn't start to get better I will have to leave him. I will have to go back to my career and put the kids in school and give up the farm. Everything we know will be gone.

We have everything in common. We don't disagree on even one thing that typical couples fight over. We agree on finances, childrearing, religion, politics, hobbies, lifestyle. We used to have SO much fun! We were the perfect match. And then slowly his issues grew and grew. He manipulates at tries to control every single interaction with everyone. He has no friends at all. None. He has no life. It is horrible to watch.

Last night we were talking and he kept doing this weird breathing thing. After maybe 10-15 minutes of that I asked him what he was doing. He said he was trying to breathe to calm himself down so he didn't start raging. Which is great! And I didn't say this to him, but I was thinking "What on earth would cause you to even think about raging right now?" Then we got on the topic of his classes and what he's learning, etc. I told him that I feel like he sees me as the enemy instead of the illness. That we should be fighting the illness together instead of each other. He seemed to understand what I was saying, and he didn't disagree. He said he is angry all the time, and he takes it out on me, so he thinks there has to be a reason he's so angry at me, and he comes up with things. Like earlier this week he decided I have put tracking spyware on his cellphone. Which of course isn't true. But he said he convinces himself of these things so there's a reason to be angry. Insight, right? Yay! But then he totally shut down and just left out of the blue. He was here because he had asked if he could take our son to his soccer practice. I think as soon as the conversation felt too intimate? Threatening? Close? He took off. We haven't had a discussion about anything in months, maybe years, without him either raging or completely shutting down/ stonewalling.

Today while I was driving between stores for work I had to call him to ask about something with the kids because my parents were watching them since I had a long workday. He started telling me about his partial hospitalization classes. We were talking about the classs and I don't remember exactly what I was talking about but I said the word "control" in relation to his classes. He asked me why I think he's trying to control and manipulate the people in his class. I explained that he is seeking a certain output from them (that I am awful) so he gives the input required to get that output from them. And if they don't have the truth, he is manipulating the output they give. I related it to what he used to do at his job. I didn't find out about it until he took his medical retirement, but for years he spread horrible stories about me there as well. So all the guys would tell him how awful I was and how he needed to leave me. And to him that seemed to justify how he treated me. Manipulating the input to get his desired output. If my theory is right, and after observing him over 10 years of marriage and 1 year of retirement and him being home all the time I think I'm at least in the ballpark, then all of it boils down to control. He's controlling the information given to everyone and therefore controlling their response in a passive aggressive way.

But the part that makes my head spin is that it still doesn't make sense. If he was lying to a judge to get custody, or lying to his parents so they'd give him money, ok. It's still wrong, but at least the reasoning makes sense. But he swears he loves me and doesn't want a divorce. He swears he wants to get better. But he's already lost the trust of everyone he has left. Nobody believes anything he says, except the people in his PH group that don't know any better. And he's confessed to a few lies to them, so they're probably starting to doubt his integrity also. But he's apparently willing to ruin our life together and the life we've built for our family just to convince himself that there is a reason for his abuse. That is the part I cannot grasp. And I accept that I may never understand it. At this point I don't care if I understand it, I just pray he's able to figure it out and start getting better before the damage is too much to fix.

Please help me with the boundary thing if I'm doing it wrong. I read the links.

[Radcliff]

Graceinaction,

For any U.S. time zone, you're up late!

OK, I may owe you an apology, or at least a clarification.  Just now I reread the thread and looked for any hint that you were misusing boundaries, and at least in my current groggy state, I couldn't find one.  I think what happened is that I saw that you were discussing boundaries, and that nobody had given you any links, so that hit my "give her the links" reflex.  Those resources are pretty handy, and we like to make sure people benefit from them.

If the boundary you are talking about is not spending four hours getting to and from an appointment your H is going to waste by lying during it, then I'd say that's a pretty good boundary!  Your values seem to be that time should be invested effectively, that people should not lie, and that your time should be respected.  Avoiding sinking 4 hours of your time and energy into lies seems to directly protect you from the exposure to the boundary-busting behavior.

Your explanation of your options for safely managing your H's rages makes sense.  It sounds like you've carefully thought things through. 

I am again struck by how much you have on your plate.  You are doing a great job.  I hope you can get some rest!

Wentworth

[Graceinaction]

Wentworth, you certainly don't owe me an apology! You've taken your own time to help me, and I want help!

I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, and I mess up constantly. I'm getting my head and heart into a better place as far as not being so angry. Things have just spiraled very badly the past year. He did say at the last family session I went to that he thinks his control over me has gotten worse because he isn't working. He had a very authoritarian job, and now he takes all that extra control out on me. That was good insight, but I don't think it was completely accurate. I don't think his control over me has gotten worse, I just can't escape it as much now. He worked 50-60 hours a week (by his own choice) and when he was at work the family and home was peaceful. He was just as controlling and manipulative, but I didn't always recognize it. And I pretty much did what I wanted despite him in a lot of things. Other things weren't worth the battle. But those things have created resentment and I see it now. So I'm much more careful about giving in or giving up to his manipulation.

He's never been the type to demand things. Ever. He won't say "I will not allow you to wear makeup." Instead he told me for years that he hates makeup on women. It "grosses him out." When I would wear makeup he wouldn't touch me. If I painted my nails he wouldn't hold my hand. For a long time I believed him. I am not a big makeup person anyway, but as I continue to get older I don't want to look as old and worn down as I do! But once the obsessing with other women came out, every single one of them wore gobs of makeup. One sold makeup for a living and one was a stripper! So I asked him how that made any sense with his passive aggressive way of trying to keep me from wearing makeup and he admitted it was to control me. He said in one way he wanted to keep me from looking good to keep other men from looking at me, but in another way he wanted me to look bad so it justified him obsessing about these women. I personally believe it was more about outright control. My faith tells me to wear skirts and dress modestly. He has an issue with that as well, and tries to control me wearing skirts. If he really had an issue with men looking at me then he wouldn't want me wearing tight jeans like he says.

Every psychiatrist and counselor he's ever seen always says the same thing- "He's a very tough, complicated case." And he is. He has layers and layers of issues.

As far as setting boundaries for him to come home, it is complicated for me. Maybe writing it out here will help me. I have very strong values and I think I'm fighting to hold on to them, but the issue seems to be that he says he holds the same values, yet his actions say something very different. I won't let go of those values, but I'm fighting the very person who I thought was working with me towards upholding those values.

God and raising my family according to the Bible is my main value. Having a marriage that is respectful and honest is a big one as well. A peaceful home is important. Those are the big ones. There are lots of smaller ones that make up those big ones. Spending time together as a family. Having happy, secure kids. Traveling. Praying together. Having fun. Being respected and treated as a person with wants and needs and dreams. It doesn't feel like a very big list to me, but it really encompasses everything.

[Radcliff]

God and raising my family according to the Bible is my main value. Having a marriage that is respectful and honest is a big one as well. A peaceful home is important. Those are the big ones. There are lots of smaller ones that make up those big ones. Spending time together as a family. Having happy, secure kids. Traveling. Praying together. Having fun. Being respected and treated as a person with wants and needs and dreams. It doesn't feel like a very big list to me, but it really encompasses everything.

Wow, nice list.  Thanks for sharing.  I think it does us all good to read a statement of values like that.

"A complicated case" says it well.  You should be getting college credit for this.  One of the things that can happen with a "complicated case" is that you can be dealing with multiple problems at once.  Sometimes they make each other worse, and sometimes the best thing to do for one of the problems runs counter to the best thing to do for one of the other problems.  In medicine, the term used is "co-morbidity."  So, you're dealing with BPD and PTSD at least.

You mentioned that your husband is a veteran.  Can you give us at least a general idea of the experiences that led to his PTSD?  Was it service related?  If so, length of tour(s), type of duty?  Not claiming any expertise here, but just trying to get a better understanding of what you're coping with.  Could you also tell us when his trauma exposure was in the context of your relationship timeline?  Did you know him before that exposure? 

You mentioned your husband controlling makeup and what you wear, as well as other controlling behaviors.  That caught my attention.  Some would call that a red flag, but let's call it orange for now.  Controlling behavior can be yet a third thing in the mix, in addition to BPD and PTSD.  Check out this page describing a Relationship Spectrum of behaviors.  Can you tell us which of the behaviors in the middle and right column you are dealing with?  The objective here is to get an honest reading, not to overplay or underplay things (most people tend to underplay them).  If you see a couple of the things on the list that you're dealing with, no worries, it just gives you a couple more learning objectives.  If there's not much going on, great, you have plenty of other things on your plate

WW

[Graceinaction]

On top of PTSD and BPD he is also diagnosed with bipolar 1 with psychotic features. When his bipolar was untreated and after he was on meds when his meds weren't right, his BPD symptoms weren't nearly as bad. Sometimes I think living with someone manic and psychotic was easier. In many ways it was easier.

He served in Iraq in 2003. He was in the thick of some very bad things and saw a lot of combat as a machine gunner with the 101st Airborne. He was also given Mefloquine which is known to cause severe psychological issues, including psychotic disorders. Yay Army. It has since stopped being given due to the horrible effects it can have both long term and short term.

This was before we were together. We have known each other since we were kids but never close. He got out of the Army a few years before we started dating. When we started dating I knew about his service and combat. He hadn't been diagnosed with ptsd, but I saw some signs. Nothing major or that I felt posed a risk to me. I was patient and thought I knew what I was getting into. He startled easily and had some sleep disturbances. He needed space sometimes to get his bearings. But he was hiding a lot. He was keeping it "contained" so he didn't scare me off. We talked about it many times and I honestly believed I was seeing everything. But then we got married and the game was up.

As far as the list goes, some of the things have come and gone. For instance, early in the marriage he tried to control the finances but I set very clear boundaries and it stopped. Not easily, but it did and it only took a few months.


I'll make a list and copy and paste. These are the things he has done at some point in the relationship but it has stopped:

-Exerts economic control: One partner controls the money and access to resources. Having an open dialogue about finances is not an option. This may include preventing a partner from earning an income or not allowing a partner access to their own income.
-Accuses the other of cheating or having an affair when it’s not true: The partner who accuses may hurt the other in a physical or verbal way as a result.
-Isolates the other partner: One partner controls where the other one goes and who they talk to. They may isolate their partner from family and friends.


These are things he currently does:
-Not communicating: When problems arise, you fight or you don’t discuss them at all.
-Disrespectful: One or more partners is not considerate of the other(s).
-Dishonest: One or more partners tells lies.
-Trying to take control: One partner feels their desires and choices are more important.
-Unequal economically: Finances are not discussed, and/or it is assumed only one partner is in charge of finances.
-Ignoring a partner’s boundaries: It is assumed only one partner is responsible for making informed decisions.
-Communicates in a way that is hurtful, threatening, insulting or demeaning.
-Mistreats the other: One partner does not respect the feelings, thoughts, decisions, opinions or physical safety of the other.
-Denies that the abusive actions are abuse: An abusive partner may try to blame the other for the harm they’re doing, or makes excuses for abusive actions or minimizes the abusive behavior.


But he's sneaky. He never says "You're not allowed to wear makeup." He hates controlling men!
He hates that he's controlling, and he finds really weird ways to justify it. He told me for years that he hated makeup on women. It is gross and unnatural. But that was a lie. The truth was that he just didn't want me to wear it. But when I did he said he didn't want to kiss me or touch me. Same with nail polish.
Now I wear makeup regularly and it isn't an issue. But it makes me angry and hurt that for years I was lied to and manipulated.

Money is tricky too. When we were first married he took over the finances. At first there were no issues. He paid the bills but I had full access. We both worked and I actually made more money than he did (not by a lot) and it seemed to work fine. About a year into the marriage, around the time I got pregnant and things started getting really crazy, we changed banks and he "forgot" to give me access to the account. I went almost 6 months without a debit card or any access to the money, and my paycheck was even being deposited there! We had started marriage counseling and the counselor made it very clear that he needed to add my name to the account and get me a debit card. Every week he kept making excuses, and he would blame me. "She was running late and I didn't have time to go before work," or "She made me go to the store so I didn't have time." The bank was two blocks from his work, and there was no reason for him not to do it. He just wouldn't. Finally I said if he didn't that week I was changing my direct deposit and we would just keep the money separate. He finally did it.

But that's typical for him. He will only give in if you set a hard line. And it usually takes me a while to do so because I give the benefit of the doubt too often.

Now I take care of all finances and he refuses to give any input at all. I don't want it that way. But every single thing in our marriage is that way. He refuses to work together in any capacity. We cannot discuss together what movie we want to see. Either he picks or he "allows" me to, which still makes him feel like he has control. Because he's making the decision to "allow" me to.

I cannot think of one time in our entire marriage we have worked together in any way, and that's probably the biggest reason I feel so alone. We have never picked a paint color together. We have never picked a movie together. We have never built something or done a project together.

The thing is, he's really a big baby. He's not some heavy-handed drill sergeant. He's like a scared little boy. And I don't like it. I don't want a scared little boy for a husband. I feel bad for him, but I'm to the point where I'm pretty much like "Get over it and get the help and grow up already." Maybe that sounds mean, but I'm empathied out.

He could be a great guy. We have almost everything in common. He used to be my best friend. He had issues, but 60% of the time was decent and 20% was great. Only like 20% was crap. Now it's all crap.

This intensive outpatient program is awful. I swear it's doing nothing but making him more self-centered. I fully understand that he needs to focus on himself and get better, but it seems like the program is making him even more self-centered. Which is insane because he was already the most selfish person I knew! If he'd get out of his head and his "feelings" and serve others and care about others and think about others, I really think he would do better and feel better.

I use parentheses on "feelings" because his feelings are crazy and control him. His feelings aren't usually based on anything real, but he acts like they are. He is supposed to be using Mindfulness and MindWise to stop that, but he's not. That's why I worry about DBT. What if it makes him even MORE selfish and self centered? I don't see how that possible, but dude, he keeps surprising me!

[Radcliff]

Hi Grace,

That is a great inventory you've done.  I'm sorry, I've been a way from the board, as things have been turbulent on my end.  This post will bump your thread up to the top, and perhaps one of the others can continue the conversation.  I have been impressed with your character and strength in all of this and believe in you!  I'm not gone, just distracted, and am really looking forward to getting re-engaged as soon as I'm able.  You are the type of person who makes this community a better place, so I hope you keep up the work and stay involved with bpdfamily!

WW