Sister has cut me off from her child

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I'm not sure if my family member has BP or NP or a combination of problems. She and I have always had a difficult relationship. Despite this, and despite her requirement for almost complete control over her child's life, her child and and I have had a great relationship up until now. She got angry with me because I wouldn't do what she wanted; I asked her to respect my boundaries. She stewed for a while, and now has just told me that I can't see her child because I don't respect her boundaries.

It might be that there's nothing I can do, but I'm trying to think this through and figure out if there's a way to work something out. I really worry about her child and it breaks my heart to think that we might not see each other for years, and that the child is being told god knows what as an explanation.

[BPSib]

I'm not sure if my family member has BP or NP or a combination of problems. She and I have always had a difficult relationship. Despite this, and despite her requirement for almost complete control over her child's life, her child and and I have had a great relationship up until now. She got angry with me because I wouldn't do what she wanted; I asked her to respect my boundaries. She stewed for a while, and now has just told me that I can't see her child because I don't respect her boundaries.

It might be that there's nothing I can do, but I'm trying to think this through and figure out if there's a way to work something out. I really worry about her child and it breaks my heart to think that we might not see each other for years, and that the child is being told god knows what as an explanation.

[Panda39]

Hi BPSib,

Welcome to the BPD Family 

Having boundaries in our lives particularly when we have someone with BPD or BPD Traits is a must, so good job defending your boundary 

How old is your niece? Why assume she will withhold your niece for years?  Has your sister done this before? 

Unfortunately, we can only control our own actions and we can not control the actions of someone else.  Your sister like my Significant Other's (SO's) undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) is using her daughter as a weapon against you.  She is using her daughter to create FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail.

More information on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I think your sister is using fear to boundary bust.  But the thing is if she succeeds at this she will have discovered something that works and will repeat it.

I like to use the following analogy... .

A little kid asks mom for candy, mom says no... .kid pouts.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no... .kid whines.  Little kid asks mom again for some candy, mom says no... .kid has a full on melt down screaming tantrum. What happens if mom gives in and gets the candy?  That little kid has just learned that having a screaming tantrum will get them what they want.  What happens if mom doesn't give in? The kid learns that no means no and he gives up.

So if you let go of your boundary to see your niece (and there is no guarantee you will), your sister has just learned withholding your niece will get her what she wants and she will do it again.

So in my opinion I think you wait this one out.  I will be interested to hear from other members and what they think.

I'm so glad you decided to jump in and post it's always great when we add a new member to the group.

Hang in there,
Panda39

[Turkish]

What specifically precipitated this? Other than control in general,  what were her boundaries?

What were yours in this specific instance?

T

[BPSib]

Hi, thank you for the responses. She has not cut me off before, in fact, it used to be that she pressured me to interact with her child and became angry if I didn't pay attention in exactly the way she prescribed. She would even sometimes supervise me while I was playing with her child and try to direct our interaction.

I have been mulling this over and I think she's angry about some things that happened a few years ago:
1. I brought up the fact that I was very concerned about her, because she was really in a bad way. She was so foggy and distracted every time I saw her that I was afraid she was going to have a car accident, or worse. And she seemed to have an eating disorder, to the extent that every get together would involve hours of going from food venue to food venue while she fretted over what she "could" eat. She would agonize over what to order, would frequently take a few bites and declare that the food was spoiled and ask for her money back, and then on to another venue for more of the same.

Then other times she would binge on sugary foods then lock herself in the restroom for 20-30 minutes. I didn't think it was safe to tell her I thought she had an eating disorder directly, so, with her therapist, I brought up my overall concern, thinking that if the conversation got going I might be able to broach the eating issues.

2. When she was seeing another man, and  railroading me into conversations about him (while all the while pretending to be oblivious that she was cheating on her husband) I asked her husband if he was concerned about her friendship with the other guy. He told her and she said this was a violation of her marriage. I'm still on the fence about whether this was the right thing to do ... .she dragged me into the situation without ever getting my consent by orchestrating situations to get me alone and then bringing up the guy and her concerns about how he wasn't returning her calls or paying enough attention to her.

3. When she told me she was divorcing, she gaslighted me so much about her husband that I told her I couldn't discuss the situation any more. It was making me sick to my stomach because she was telling me things that exactly contradicted things I had seen with my own eyes and getting very over-emotional about made up things. People on these boards can probably imagine what this was like - being told up is down and black is white and being pressured to go along.

So, now she is saying that until we work this out, I can't see him. But, then she's also saying that she doesn't know how we can possibly work it out, because she doesn't think my therapist is effective, and until I'm willing to see a more effective therapist, discussion with her therapist, or a neutral third therapist is pointless. I find it highly ironic that someone who is complaining about her boundaries is trying to direct my therapeutic relationship, but it's not surprising coming from her.

So, I have considered humoring her and letting her select an approved therapist for me, and then going to a third therapist to discuss all of this, to see if I can get anywhere. It's taking all of my will to not just hate her guts right now because she's so awful, but I have to remind myself that she's broken.

And then there's this other thing - according to her, I'm the one with the problem. I'm pretty sure she's wrong, mostly because I have friends and I haven't alienated every person I have come across for the past 5 decades ... .but there's a little part of me that wonders if she's right and I really am a horrible person who is in too much denial to see it.

[Turkish]

And then there's this other thing - according to her, I'm the one with the problem. I'm pretty sure she's wrong, mostly because I have friends and I haven't alienated every person I have come across for the past 5 decades .... but there's a little part of me that wonders if she's right and I really am a horrible person who is in too much denial to see it.

As my T told me,  "everyone has wounds."

The second time I pushed him to diagnose me with something,  he got testy. I never brought it up again. 

32 years a ago my BPD mother,  much like my ex did over 4 years ago,  abandoned me to do family counseling alone.  There had to be something wrong with me,  right?

Sure,  I was wounded,  perhaps not dealing with things in the best way; I was surviving.  So are you.  The difference was that I was not actively hurting people,  though from a BPD perspective,  I may have been hurting a severely wounded person who was hurt long before me.  In a moment where I thought it safe,  I asked my ex what was going through her mind when she was raging  (me, our kids, her family), "I want everyone else to feel my pain!" An honest admission in a moment of clarity. 

Take a look at what I highlighted above.  ^^^

I believe you,  and I bet everyone on this board does as well.   

Humoring your sister is certainly an option.  It's something I would consider of I were in your shoes.  I'm not judging whether it's right or wrong,  however.  It's certainly an option to keep contact. 

[Panda39]

Hi BPSib,

I'm hearing that you care for your sister a great deal, but I'm also hearing you getting sucked in to a lot of her drama. 

I have been mulling this over and I think she's angry about some things that happened a few years ago... .

Could it be that she is using these things like a weapon... .blaming you for her bad behavior, projecting her behaviors on to you?  She did all those things, you tried to be supportive of her in spite of her poor behavior.  Why are you accepting blame for discussing these things with her?

3. When she told me she was divorcing, she gaslighted me so much about her husband that I told her I couldn't discuss the situation any more. It was making me sick to my stomach because she was telling me things that exactly contradicted things I had seen with my own eyes and getting very over-emotional about made up things.

You recognized here that she was blaming her husband falsely for things, can you see that she is doing the same to you?

Nice boundary telling her that you wouldn't discuss her husband anymore, I think you need to do more of that in your own situation. 

More on boundaries... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61684.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

So, now she is saying that until we work this out, I can't see him. But, then she's also saying that she doesn't know how we can possibly work it out, because she doesn't think my therapist is effective, and until I'm willing to see a more effective therapist, discussion with her therapist, or a neutral third therapist is pointless. I find it highly ironic that someone who is complaining about her boundaries is trying to direct my therapeutic relationship, but it's not surprising coming from her.

So, I have considered humoring her and letting her select an approved therapist for me, and then going to a third therapist to discuss all of this, to see if I can get anywhere.

Your therapist is for you, do you like your current therapist, is your therapist helping and supporting you?  Who your therapist is, is up to you.  Is your therapist on to your sister?  Could it be that's why she wants you to change therapists?  She can't manipulate your therapist and doesn't like that?

It's taking all of my will to not just hate her guts right now because she's so awful, but I have to remind myself that she's broken.

I think you need to take sometime and take care of yourself, focus on you and what you need, you are spending a lot of time and energy focusing on your sister.  It' like being on an airplane and the flight attendant tells you to put your oxygen mask on before you help someone else.  You can't be your best when you are emotionally exhausted.  Take some time for you.

And then there's this other thing - according to her, I'm the one with the problem. I'm pretty sure she's wrong, mostly because I have friends and I haven't alienated every person I have come across for the past 5 decades ... .but there's a little part of me that wonders if she's right and I really am a horrible person who is in too much denial to see it.

I'm going to be blunt, this is complete BS!  You didn't believe it of your sisters ex why would you believe this of yourself?  What would happen if you saw yourself as the caring sister, loving aunt and wonderful person that you are?

Panda 39

[BPSib]

Thank you Turkish for your comment. Yeah, my therapist hasn't gotten testy, but he has told me over and over that I don't have a disorder, and that the fact that I can even wonder about it indicates that I don't have one. Also, that I should look at why I don't trust my own judgment. All good points.

[BPSib]

Thank you Panda39. Your post brought me a lot of comfort. Despite over 2000 miles of distance and years of therapy, I can still get sucked into the drama and not even realize I'm sucked in.

I like your point about how she's using the things I did, not that the things I did were so wrong. I have really wondered whether it was wrong to say something to her husband, or to express concern about her. I should add, because it was so hard to talk to her, I called her therapist and said I was very concerned. I did this knowing her therapist would need to tell her - I hoped that would be a way to mitigate some of the meltdown factor that I would be exposed to if I had told her directly. But maybe it was wrong to call her therapist ... .I don't know.

Also, the main reason for doing that was that if 10 or 20 years from now, her child asks how I could have stood by and let all this happen, I wanted to know that I had tried to help.

Re my therapist and hers ... .we had this huge meltdown three years ago (around the time the three things I mentioned above happened). It was so bizarre and ridiculous it's hard to even explain, but I'll try. She and child were visiting. Things were going OK, even though she had already violated my boundaries by booking her trip for 3 days longer than I requested.

Because she was over staying she promised to help me with a project I had been meaning to do in my time off. So, we started the project, then later in the day, I was thinking I wanted to power through and finish, and she wanted to go get dinner. So, I said, "you go, I want to get this done." Partly because my house was in disarray and partly because I was having friends over the next day to see her and meet child for the first time.

I felt her mood shift immediately, and thought "uh-oh, what's coming?" But, I couldn't think of any way she could possibly object to my wanting to do a chore while she and child went to eat. Boy was I wrong. She disappeared for a few minutes, then reappeared and asked to talk to me privately. Child was across the street playing with the neighbor kids.

She laid out what she saw as a problem. Child wanted to help with the project, and the whole trip was supposed to be about the child having fun (notwithstanding the fact that I had planned and executed a lot of fun for child already), but we had forgotten a tool when we were at the hardware store. By the time we would be able to get the tool in question, it would be time for child to go to bed.

But, there was another way to do the task. I had another tool that would work! So, I said, "how about we use this instead?" She actually screamed that her child was only 7 years old and didn't know how to use the tool I suggested. In reality I have seen many children who are younger use this tool easily. This is when I realized that this was going to be the conflict that I had felt brewing earlier.

So, then I said "what can I do to make you OK with this situation?" She just escalated and escalated from there, accusing me of not loving the child, accusing me of being abusive, screaming that she didn't have time to argue about this because she had a little child who was hungry and needed dinner. I kept saying "i'm not keeping you here. You can go. I just don't want to argue about this."

BTW, she was going to a hamburger restaurant with child who was a vegetarian, while meanwhile I had a fridge full of food that both of them could have eaten, but that didn't matter to her.

After a lot of screaming on her part, and efforts to de-escalate on my part, she finally stormed out and took my car. She promised she would pick up the tool while she was gone so I would be able to finish my project up more quickly. When she got back 4 hours later, she had not picked up the tool and was still very agitated. I found out later (from child) that they had spent a lot of time walking around lost looking for a dessert place after the hamburger place. I think she gets lost a lot because she's always in a brain fog because she's starving, so that's another factor that makes being around her hellish.

After she got back I went out and did the shopping for the party the next day, and got the tool I needed and stayed up late finishing the project. Throughout the evening she kept coming at me demanding to talk and I kept walking away, saying that I didn't think we should try to talk without help. She saw my walking away as abuse, but she didn't see her continued harassment of me as abuse. She kept asking how I could not love her child, how I could be so cruel, how could I not see her as a person. On and on. Whipsawing between rage and tears. Then she packed up and left the next day while I was sleeping, and went to a hotel. Her child left these heartbreaking little sad face pictures on my bed because she wouldn't allow a goodbye. They did come back later in the day for the party, but they showed up after almost everyone had left, and of course she blamed me for that too.

So, back to the therapist - after all this, I went to visit her and we went to her therapist together. I said that my main goal was to get to a point where she could hear "no" from me without becoming angry. The therapist seemed clueless about what she's really like and was confused by my request. After some back and forth, my sister started saying, in this very hateful tone "well, you care about BOUNDARIES but I care about relationships." She was so vicious and crazy sounding. The therapist had to leave the room for a few minutes and said "I can't let seeing both of you damage my primary therapeutic relationship with [sister]."

At one point the therapist asked what I wanted and I said I wanted to be able to say no and I wanted to be able to reach a compromise if we wanted different things. She actually said that she DID compromise, because she went to a hotel. She didn't see the whole s***storm she rained down on me as problematic at all - she said she was just advocating for her child.

During that session my sister begged me to get a different therapist because she thinks that I have underlying problems that I'm not aware of and that I need someone who can really help me break through. I translate this to mean that she thinks that somewhere out there there's a therapist who will make me OK with having her steamroll my boundaries every time she interacts with me, but of course she doesn't see it that way. She believes that I'm abusive and narcissistic.

edited to add: I would actually be fine with going NC with her and seeing her child through the father. Initially when she said she didn't want to see me, that's what I thought I would do, but after I contacted the dad about setting up a visit, she emailed me to say that no, she didn't want me seeing any of them. So, I either settle for Skype for the indefinite future, or find a way to work with her demands.

[Turkish]

From where did your learn the concept of boundaries? It's a common topic across most boards.  Also,  have you seen the communication tools in the lessons and suggested reading at the top of this board? Panda39 linked to the most popular discussions on boundaries.  What about the validation tools?

I'll editorialize here and say that your sis went off the rails and caused a lot of drama in the incident you describe.  It's easy to do a "post-mortem" of the incident in hindsight,  but as you describe it,  I can see your boundaries,  but no validation.  This is not to say that sometimes hard boundaries aren't called for,  like when my mother accused my little kids of stealing from her.  "The kids aren't stealing your money mom." Repeated verbatim several times... .the risk,  however,  is triggering fears and even paranoia. 

The SET tool is the most basic validation tool: https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

In a perfect world,  we'd all stop hurting each other, like The Carpenters sang 

Stepping back, reaching out and trying the tools is what we can do because we are stronger,  as my T told me in a way when I was unloading upon him about my ex and later my mother.  He said "sometimes the strong are chosen to protect the weak." Sounds like he was quoting Spider-Man or maybe The Bible. Really man? *sigh*

He never disagreed that they hurt me,  but I think this was his way of saying I was stronger, kind of throwing the ball into my court.  What do you think BPDsib?

T

[BPSib]

Turkish, I learned about boundaries from various sources - mostly my therapist and books. My parents were very dysfunctional and in my home there were essentially no boundaries at all, so in order to have a somewhat normal life I needed to learn how to interact with normal people, which included respecting others' boundaries and having my own.

I'll take a look at the tools. During the meltdown when she was visiting, I did try to validate her desire to advocate for her child, by saying that I knew she wanted child to have a good time, and could we find another way to make that happen ... .but, I think that since she was already on a roll, and had the true goal of forcing me to do something I didn't want to do (this is her MO - has been for years), she blew right past my suggestions.

More recently, she blew up at me while I was visiting her, and I was able to validate her hurt feelings, and she did seem to calm down a bit, so I guess it works some of the time.

On the other hand, usually when I spend time with her the whole process is so exhausting that by the time she really starts in with the attacks, I'm so spent that I can be caught off guard and get snappish, which just fuels her behavior.

[Panda39]

Also, that I should look at why I don't trust my own judgment.

I think this is right on the money.  I see you learning better coping skills (it's a journey and we're all on it  ) but your gut is telling you things too.  Maybe try and pause or take time after the fact to figure out what it's telling you, think it through does it make sense? Would you trust it if it came from someone else? The old if it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, it's probably a dog... .If your gut is reacting and it's telling you something believable then believe it.

What was your FOO (Family of Origin) like growing up? How did your parents cope with your sister?  What do you think was your role with in the family?

I'm the "link" Panda I love to share links to more information, knowledge is power    So to piggyback on Turkish's comments here are some links about validation and one on a communication skill called SET (Support Empathy Truth) that might be helpful with your interactions with your sister... .

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating
https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

I don't think any of us pointed out the box to the right, each item is a link to more information, you might want to check out the "Lessons" section when you get the chance.

Take Care, 
Panda39

[BPSib]

Panda, thank you for the resources. I haven't replied for a while because I have had a hard time thinking about any of this - it's so painful and I really don't know if the situation is going to get better.

You asked what my family was like - it was a mess. My parents were never diagnosed but I am pretty sure they both had BPD, and I believe my father was a narcissist. Things were very chaotic at home and no one was really managing the problems my siblings and I were having. Our father had a creepy relationship with my sister when she was younger, then later rejected her because she rejected him. And our mother hated my sister, probably because of our father's attraction to her. It was a mess.

Because I know her history so well, I have compassion for my sister some of the time. I know that she has experienced some awful things and that on some level she's just desperately trying to get her own needs met. But then at other times I react to how awful she is to me, and has always been, and I just want to avoid her wrath. And I am trying to find a way to not be poisoned by her hostility toward me, and by the horrible things she says and believes about me.

[Panda39]

Panda, thank you for the resources. I haven't replied for a while because I have had a hard time thinking about any of this - it's so painful and I really don't know if the situation is going to get better.

Hi BPsib,

There is a lot to take in and learn but there is no deadline, it's a journey and you like the rest of us will go at your own pace and taking breaks away from the journey is part of the process too.  It's a learning process and trial and error and self discovery and it's not necessarily going to go in a straight line.

I go through periods when I don't post as much sometimes because it takes emotional energy and I have to process and re-charge my batteries every so often too.

You asked what my family was like - it was a mess. My parents were never diagnosed but I am pretty sure they both had BPD, and I believe my father was a narcissist. Things were very chaotic at home and no one was really managing the problems my siblings and I were having. Our father had a creepy relationship with my sister when she was younger, then later rejected her because she rejected him. And our mother hated my sister, probably because of our father's attraction to her. It was a mess.

Because I know her history so well, I have compassion for my sister some of the time. I know that she has experienced some awful things and that on some level she's just desperately trying to get her own needs met.

Have you ever considered getting some therapy for yourself to work through some of this stuff?  It can be really helpful to talk with a professional and get these subjects out in the open and process them, and a professional could also support you in dealing with your sister. You of course have the peer support here too. 

Your compassion for your sister like so many things in life seems to me to be a double edged sword.  Caring for others and empathy is a positive trait but it can also be taken too far when we put the needs of others before our own well-being.  My guess is that your sister uses your compassion as leverage with FOG.

As much as you feel compassion for your sister, her past was not your fault, not your responsibility (then or now), fixing her is also not your job as much as you' d like to.  Her feelings and her issues are her own and are hers to change.  We can only change ourselves we can not change someone else.

I want to share a quote that I like (used in addition recovery - about acceptance) that you will hopefully keep in mind in terms of your sister's BPD Traits.



What you can do is change what you do, how you think about your sister (and yourself), and how you behave in relation to your sister.  Sometimes our changes can have ripple effects that change the dynamics in our relationships with someone else.

Be aware that changing your behavior can make things worse for a little while, because you have stepped out of your assigned role that change can cause your sister to escalate her behavior in an effort to get you back into the role she is comfortable having you in.  The key here is to continue the healthy change and weather the storm until she understands this is the new way it's gonna be.

But then at other times I react to how awful she is to me, and has always been, and I just want to avoid her wrath.

Avoiding her wrath... .exactly why one of the most well known books on BPD is called Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by Paul Mason MS and Randi Kreger

Speaking of books there's another good one I like too... .Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by Valerie Porr

Besides trying SET when communicating with your sister I wanted to share information about JADE (yes we like abbreviations around here  ) Try to avoid JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) when your sister is blaming don't JADE it ups the drama and can turn into a never ending circular argument.  Not JADing isn't easy and will take practice.  But you know when you are being blamed for something you didn't do, you know that you won't convince her no matter what you say... .for pwBPD Feelings can often equal Facts in their mind... .so if she feels it, it must be so.  Don't JADE, don't engage in and feed the drama.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=139972.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=87204.0
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=118892.0

And I am trying to find a way to not be poisoned by her hostility toward me, and by the horrible things she says and believes about me.

The key here is to stop believing what she is telling you... .It's as simple and as complicated as that.

Take Care, 
Panda39

[Stolen]

Because I know her history so well, I have compassion for my sister some of the time. I know that she has experienced some awful things and that on some level she's just desperately trying to get her own needs met. But then at other times I react to how awful she is to me, and has always been, and I just want to avoid her wrath. And I am trying to find a way to not be poisoned by her hostility toward me, and by the horrible things she says and believes about me.

BPSib,

The characters are rearranged somewhat in your situation, but I see (and feel) some strong similarities to my experience over many years.  Like your sister, my xW "experienced some awful things... ." in her childhood.  Switched in her case (as I understand it) with an abusive mother and un-protective, non-validating father.  This seems to have led xW, once we had children, to follow the playbook of the Childhood Trauma Reenactment that Childress documents so well (www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=99&TID=6&FN=pdf).

I am wondering if you have read through this theory, and if perhaps you can see yourself being (mis)cast as the "abusive parent" to serve sis' need to recreate herself as the "protective parent"?

Sorry to veer off topic among so much great advice, but this just hit a nerve with me.

[BPSib]

Panda, thanks again for the reply. I see a therapist - have for a while, because coming out of my family I knew I had problems and would need help. He has been helpful, but I struggle with persistently worrying that my sister might be right and that I'm the horrible person my sister insists I am. I am also looking into local mental health support groups since it might be nice to have some people to talk to in person.

Interestingly I have been working on being less reactive with my sister, and I wonder if that's part of the problem. There have been times in the past few years where she really pressured me to do what she wanted, or tried to start fights and I didn't engage. I wonder if that's part of why she's acting out now - because the old methods aren't working so she's doubling down.

[BPSib]

Stolen, thank you for the reply. I had not thought of that dynamic, but it makes sense. She has, at various times, accused me of being like our father - in situations where my "abuse" consists of me having boundaries and refusing to engage when she is raging at me. That situation makes me wonder if she creates the situation so she can then blame me for her bad feelings. It's all so distorted and crazy.

[Panda39]

Interestingly I have been working on being less reactive with my sister, and I wonder if that's part of the problem. There have been times in the past few years where she really pressured me to do what she wanted, or tried to start fights and I didn't engage. I wonder if that's part of why she's acting out now - because the old methods aren't working so she's doubling down.

More reading 
Extinction Burst
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

Panda39