Please help me help my ex-partner be happy in life...

[MLJPD]

Good morning,

I am contacting you because I am in a peculiar situation. I was involved with a man for about two years. Our life together has never been easy and our relationship ended on June this year. But we both love each other. While we were together and after we broke, I kept trying to figure out why our relationship was not working as we seemed to want the same things and we both loved each other. When I went to meet one of our friends in common, she told me something that opened my eyes that he might suffer from a mental illness. I contacted several therapists to find ways to help him have a better life and be happy as he has never been happy. And two therapists mentioned to me that they suspected he could suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder and I recently started reading about that condition and I felt like I was reading about my life with him. So my doubts about the diagnostic is very slim. But that book also told me that he doesn't realize he needs help and what he is doing and that one of the only things I can do to help him is to tell him that he needs help. So, I want to be able to meet with him and find the best way to tell him, so he won't feel offended or be defensive with me.

Can somebody help me? I love him so much and I want him to be happy, whether it is with me or someone else (preferably with me)... .I wrote to him a letter to explain how I feel and how much I love him and asking him to meet with him, so I could tell him my concerns, but I haven't sent the letter yet. I want to make sure it is the best thing to do and that I am saying the right thing and that we indeed meet. I want him to receive the message I have to say the best way possible, as you know, we need to walk on eggshells, meaning the way I intent it, to help him.

I am at a loss. I have been trying to make our relationship work for the last two years, but without being aware about the conditions surrounding BPD and I have been working hard for the last four months to find ways for him to be happy, because I can't even imagine how he must feel.

Please help me.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Tattered Heart]

HI MLJPD,

I'm sorry that you are going through a hard time handling the break up.

What led to your breakup?

Do you think telling him he has BPD will fix things? How do you think he will respond to that? Are you in contact now or has he broken off all contact?

Walking on egg shells is never the way to talk with someone with BPD. It is what us nons do to try to stop them from getting upset with us but it doesn't work. It's our walking on egg shells that causes so much of the dysfunction in our relationship. You mentioned that you've found ways to make him happy. What if he doesn't want to do the things you say? Instead of focusing so much on fixing him, have you looked at ways to make you happy?

[MLJPD]

Hi Tattered Heart,

I tend to believe that, if he indeed suffers from BPD, the behaviors coming from that illness were the cause of the breakup.

My goal by telling him if for him to be happy, because I love him and I can't even imagine living the feeling he must feel because of his mental state... .

First, although I was walking on eggshells, always scared of his reactions, I have always been honest with him and told him the Truth, but when you do not know that you are dealing with someone with BPD and you don't know how to handle the way they behave with you and the way they perceive what you are saying, that is hard to handle, even when you know they have BPD, imagine when you are not even aware that this illness exists and it almost drove me insane.

As for focusing on what makes me happy instead on trying to fix him, I feel like it is a judgement on what I am trying to do, which is supposed to be exactly what you are doing here... .help people. You probably think I am doing this as a selfish act just to bring him back in my life... .I said to DaddyBear77 that I was feeling alone, I feel even more alone now and hurt, as if I was a selfish person... .

[Tattered Heart]

I'm sorry that you felt what i said was a judgment. It wasn't, but it was a push towards helping you. We can't fix our pwBPD. These boards are here to help you begin focusing on you. We are co-dependent and co-dependent people try to fix others. We get involved in Enabling vs. Supporting or Enmeshment . Both of these leaves us, the nons, feeling alone, walking on egg shells, frustrated, hurt, and tired of the back and forth between us and our pwBPD.

But, once we start working on ourselves, we can then begin to thrive in our relationship. We can more clearly see what is our responsibility and what is the responsibility of our pwBPD. Our reactions to our pwBPD change and they in turn most likely will begin to change their reactions to us. We can truly learn to support them in a healthy way. My H and I are in the best place we've ever been in our relationship because I changed myself. I stopped trying to fix him. I started fixing me. We have a saying around here: Before You Can Make Things Better, You Have to Stop Making Them Worse .

[MLJPD]

Thank you for the clarification. I am working on myself, I have a life coach and I am reading books to try to solve my own issues. To tell the truth I wish I had known this condition before, because I would have been able to behave differently, even though I have been more than patient. But I know his entire life has been one of suffering. He kept telling me how much of an alien he felt. He kept telling me that he was convinced he was an alien, that if it was not for me, he would have killed himself or ran away. I am reading a book on NPD and BPD and they say that most of them don’t realize they have a mental illness, so if they don’t know, they can get the help they need and they keep living a life of hell. I cannot even imagine how he must feel daily... .why hide from him an information that could change his life, finally. For the last four months, I have been making research, because I want him to be happy, finally. Whether it is with me or not, even if I wish it will be with me... .He might even choose not to believe me, but I want to find the best way to tell him, so he can make the best choice for him... .I can’t make the choice for him, but I at least want him to possess the information I found... .I can’t hold such a big piece of information just out of fear of his reaction. I was here to get help understanding this condition better, but also find the best way to tell hin considering our situation.

[schwing]

Hi MLJPD and

I hear your request and I can identify with your desire to help your BPD loved one overcome the suffering that I have no doubt that he endures.  I have also wanted to help the BPD loved ones in my life which include not just an ex-partner but also my mother.  I have devoted not a little time towards understanding this disorder in the hope that I could help my loved ones in some way or another.  Perhaps by sharing with you my understanding of disorder, I can also help you "be happy in life" with or without your ex-partner.

But that book also told me that he doesn't realize he needs help and what he is doing and that one of the only things I can do to help him is to tell him that he needs help. So, I want to be able to meet with him and find the best way to tell him, so he won't feel offended or be defensive with me.

It may be that knowledge of his mental disorder is not sufficient to help him come to the conclusion that he needs to seek help.  I would compare recovery from this disorder to recovery from drug addiction or alcoholism.  First they need to accept that they have a problem.

The problem, however, is that most, if not all, sufferers of BPD have spent a majority (if not all) of their adult lives utilizing "maladaptive" coping mechanisms to deal with their symptoms associated with BPD.  An example is the behavior of blaming the other person for what is ultimately their own issue.  If you spent your life believing that it's always the other person's fault; then you are always the victim, you will never learn from your experiences.  And so you may never come close to the realization that you are the one who needs help.

I believe this is why DBT (dialectical behavioral therapy) can be so effective at helping suffers of BPD.  DBT helps pwBPD start to develop *adaptive* coping mechanisms.  The hope is that if they can sufficiently develop adaptive coping mechanisms, they can slowly replace their maladaptive coping mechanisms.  But this is all prior to delving into *why* they have their maladaptive coping mechanisms in the first place.  The problem is that until they have better coping mechanisms, no gains made in the self reflection of the cause of their disorder will ever stick. This is not a short endeavor, but it is a worthwhile one.

Can somebody help me? I love him so much and I want him to be happy, whether it is with me or someone else (preferably with me)... .I wrote to him a letter to explain how I feel and how much I love him and asking him to meet with him, so I could tell him my concerns, but I haven't sent the letter yet. I want to make sure it is the best thing to do and that I am saying the right thing and that we indeed meet. I want him to receive the message I have to say the best way possible, as you know, we need to walk on eggshells, meaning the way I intent it, to help him.

I think your desire to help your BPD loved one is commendable.  But you might consider if perhaps part of your drive to help your loved one is an expression of your own issues.  In my case, I found that in the early stages after my break-up with my BPD loved one, in truth, I was obsessed.  I *needed* to understand why my relationship failed.  In retrospect, I realized that one of my tendencies (I believe a co-dependent tendency) was/is to focus much of my personal energy on the needs of the other person as a (maladaptive) coping mechanism, an avoidance behavior, to avoid facing my own personal pain.  The way it played out it my life: when I was in the greatest pain, I devoted the majority of my time and focus towards helping my disordered partner.  This is the dynamic that helped me psychically survive my childhood (the attention I paid to my mother limited the pain she inflicted upon my family). This is also why/how my BPD relationship lasted almost five years.  This kind of self neglect doesn't work well in the long term.  And at the end of that BPD relationship, I was a shell of who I was before.

I tend to believe that, if he indeed suffers from BPD, the behaviors coming from that illness were the cause of the breakup.

Yes this is true.  But what may be difficult to accept is that because of this illness, the qualities that you associate with his personality may stem from his efforts to mirror you during your relationship.  That is, who you think he is, is not actually him.  There is a reason why this is classified as a *personality* disorder.

First, although I was walking on eggshells, always scared of his reactions, I have always been honest with him and told him the Truth, but when you do not know that you are dealing with someone with BPD and you don't know how to handle the way they behave with you and the way they perceive what you are saying, that is hard to handle, even when you know they have BPD, imagine when you are not even aware that this illness exists and it almost drove me insane. 

But having knowledge of this disorder doesn't make things that much easier for those of us who have BPD loved ones.  The closer we get to our BPD loved ones only makes the sting of their devaluing behaviors worse.  I've found that the best way to limit how much they hurt us is to keep our distance and keep the relationship as formal (and perhaps superficial) as possible.  And this is usually not the kind of relationships we choose for ourselves in life partnerships.

The only thing that helps their behaviors are the changes they make for themselves.  It has to be their choice.  Otherwise, if/when their recovery becomes difficult (as it is certain to be), it is too tempting to revert back and blame the other: blame us as the only reason why they are undergoing such a difficult endeavor.

As for focusing on what makes me happy instead on trying to fix him, I feel like it is a judgement on what I am trying to do, which is supposed to be exactly what you are doing here... .help people.

Focusing on ourselves gives us the opportunity to change something that is within our power. Certainly it is within your power to offer help to your BPD loved one.  However it is not within your power to make him accept your help.  That is his choice.  And if he chooses not to accept your help, will you accept that?

You probably think I am doing this as a selfish act just to bring him back in my life... .I said to DaddyBear77 that I was feeling alone, I feel even more alone now and hurt, as if I was a selfish person... .

I don't think that any effort to bring him back into your life is selfish.  I think that like myself, Tattered Heart just wants to spare you from any unnecessary pain. 

He might even choose not to believe me, but I want to find the best way to tell him, so he can make the best choice for him... .I can’t make the choice for him, but I at least want him to possess the information I found... .I can’t hold such a big piece of information just out of fear of his reaction. I was here to get help understanding this condition better, but also find the best way to tell hin considering our situation.

Another quality that people with BPD (pwBPD) have that non-disordered people have difficulty empathizing with, is their splitting behavior (aka black & white thinking). Those of us who are in very great pain actually exhibit this behavior to a degree: we alternate between seeing our BPD loved ones as the love of our life and the opposite of seeing them this way.  This is why during our relationships, our BPD loved ones change from adoring us to hating us.  More specifically, they can alternate between seeing us as someone who can save them and seeing us as someone who has/will betray them.

The thing is, until they develop the tools to replace this kind of distorted thinking, they are apt to apply this splitting behavior towards themselves.  That is, they can see themselves as someone who is faultless (i.e. the victim) or else worthless (i.e. lack of self-esteem/depression/suicidal ideation). And unfortunately, when they consider the possibility that they might have borderline personality disorder, they may end up devaluing themselves. At least until they decide that the messenger is the person who is mentally ill and promptly shoot the messenger.

I don't think there is a good/easy way to tell them that they are suffering from this disorder.  As a matter of fact, I don't think they should be told until they are evaluated to be in a position to effective process this information (something that *their* professional therapist should ascertain).  I think the best way for us (non-professionals) to help them get on the road to recovery is to encourage them to develop better emotional tools in some stealthy way.  There are DBT workbooks that make no mention of mental illness or disorders.  Frame the suggestion in a way that communicates that not everyone is helped by these kind of exercises, but the people who do need this kind of help greatly benefit from them.

Be the consistent source of support.  Steadfast.  Not pressuring.  Formal.  Don't get close enough to push their buttons.  I think the kind of relationship that best helps pwBPD work through recovery is more of a parental type relationship.  And I know this might not square with what you might want/need out of the relationship.  I hope some of what I write helps.

 
Best wishes,

Schwing

[Tattered Heart]

I think the symptoms of BPD related to dissociation beliefs are the hardest for me to see. When someone is in that state, I can only imagine how scary it would be to think of yourself as being an alien. My H struggles with these things too. Sometimes he thinks we are in another dimension or that the Mandela Effect is real. He thinks I"m a "bot". He used to imagine that when he walked his body made swishing noises. It's so sad. And it's frustrating that us nons can see exactly what they need to do to get help, but they don't see their need for it.

I'm not sure how much contact you have with your pwBPD right now. One thing you might try is to validate what he is feeling when he describes what he believes. Don't validate the invalid though. You know he is not an alien so you don't want to validate that. But you can validate what it feels like to be scared, disconnected from others, or to feel like you don't belong somewhere. Does that make sense? For someone with BPD their feelings=facts. SO when your pwBPD says he believes he is an alien, look for the feelings behind the words. Our workshop on validation might help you talk with him about things, including treatment, without accusing him.

[MLJPD]

Good morning Tattered Heart and Schwing

Right now, our contacts are very limited. The last time we saw each other was at the end of July and after that, we simply exchanged text messages. The last loving message he sent me was on September 17, a month ago. The last one I sent him, although for him it was probably not a loving message was on September 26. My plan was to send him this letter:

"My love, my beautiful angel, I didn't mean for you to think that I thought you didn't care about my feelings or my thoughts with that message. I was simply pointing out one thing that you do that was hurting me and you and the consequences of it, in the hope that we could be happier.

Do you remember how much you hated when I was not telling you what was going wrong? Well, that is what I am trying to do…

In the past when you have said I am putting you down, I analyze what I said to understand what I said wrong and find a way to say it differently the next time, so my real intentions, my real message can be understood the way I meant it. It is hard for me as my intentions are not your perception of my message. They aim at expressing something I didn't like or even just to tell you who I am, how I feel or how much I love you and care about you. It is hard for me, because I can’t read your mind and see what makes you perceive what I say the way you do. However, I got an enlightenment and I think I finally understand... .When I mentioned that by making assumptions you are not only hurting yourself, but you are hurting me too and you deprive me from the right to be heard, you felt like I was putting you down, that I was saying you did not care about my feelings and my thoughts in general. And I feel that you think I do not take blame for anything, because I can't understand what I am saying wrong.

When you say: "You wouldn't have been happy anyways because of that", you are hurting yourself and me, first, because it is negative and also, because you are assuming the cause of my unhappiness. You made that assumptions several times before and every time I have told you the causes of my unhappiness, but you keep thinking that way, making me feel like my explanations were not heard and those conversations on that subject lead us nowhere, since we were not working on the real causes of my unhappiness. And I feel like when I tell you that I am not doing it to hurt you, you do not believe me. I feel like you do not trust me. Which doesn't make sense to me, because I never gave you any reasons to doubt me and it hurts me deeply.

Understanding the reason why you perceived my message that way, doesn't help me to know what I should have said and done to express that, when you make assumptions, I feel hurt.

You told me that you want me to be happy... .I want to be happy and I want you to be happy. Like any situations in life, there is times where you and I will do things that the other don't like, things that doesn't make us happy. In more than two years now, I haven't been able to find the proper way for me to convey my messages to you and make our relationship work. I feel like I must walk on eggshells and even when I do walk on those shells, it doesn't matter what I say, even the nicest and most loving messages I send you, I feel like it is never the right thing to say and I feel very insecure writing or talking to you, because I am scared to hurt you and then feel punished and hurt more for expressing something that hurt me in the first place. I was doubting myself all the time and I lost my self-confidence. That is why I have my messages read by others before I send them to you... .Even so, their perceptions are not the same as yours and I am still not able to formulate my messages in the way I want you to understand them. So, I feel like I am not being understood, I feel like I am being perceived for someone I am not. I feel like I am wrongly perceived like the worst person on the planet in your eyes and in your surrounding's eyes because of what you told them about me, although they do not have both side of the story. Actually, I felt like you had a fluctuating perception of me. One day I was the perfect person for you, the woman of your life, I was the only person you had ever trusted in your whole entire life, I was the only thing that was making you happy and that you couldn’t live without me and other times, I felt like I had all the flaws of the planet, I couldn’t be trusted, you needed to find yourself a new girlfriend. I felt very unstable emotionally. One day I felt so much love and the next, I felt so much hatred, when I know I didn’t deserve any of this. I also felt like I was expected to behave in such a way, feel such a way, otherwise I didn't love you and I felt like I had to guess how I was supposed to behave and feel, otherwise I was in trouble. I felt like I had no room for mistake. In the end, it would have been so much easier if we could read each other’s heart, mind and soul. That way we could understand each other and wouldn’t have to try to communicate... .As we can’t, I was wondering if you could do me a big favor. Could you help me and tell me, how am I to proceed when things that I don't like happens? Do you have any ideas to make our relationship work?

For the last four months... .I could even say the last 2 years, I have been working hard to find ways to make our relationship work, because you and I had something so incredibly special. We know what it is to really love another person. Very few people will ever experience it. Our love was so strong, that I thought the sky was our limit to experience our love. It seems to me that things should have been so simple and beautiful, as I thought we wanted the same things: love, affection, respect... .Greeting each other by kissing and hugging at night, when we got back home from work, then enjoying every minute we had together to cuddle, talk and get to know and love each other, go to bed, make love, wish each other good night and fall asleep in each other’s arms. And every morning, waking up to your sweet beautiful face. Us being happy and growing old together. If you only knew how I feel inside… my heart is like a raging volcano. I miss your smile, I miss your eyes, I miss your beautiful and sexy body, I miss your kisses, I miss your smell, I miss your affection, I miss making love with you…. I miss your love, I miss you… I was imagining our life as we were when we met in Ivy Lea, where we met that couple who owned the hotel... .I sincerely thought that nothing could ever come between us. That when we would be facing problems, we could face them together... .You have told me that I was your purpose to live. My love of my life, you were mine too. My heart and my soul knew that we were meant to be together and that we were to be together for the rest of our life… That is the main reason why I stayed in Ontario… You are the reason why I moved here and why I stayed here. Please, do not take it as a blame... .It was MY decision. What I am trying to express here is the love I have for you. When you know that I had three choices and because of my belief and my feelings for you, I made the choice that is the loneliest and the hardest on me, that is the highest stake gambling and, under normal circumstances, should prove to you that I love you more than you could ever imagine somebody loving you. Not only my heart and my soul knew we were meant to be together, the universe is constantly sending me signs… On your birthday, I wanted to send you pictures of myself, as you thought I was beautiful, a song I sang for you, as you loved my singing and an extract of our movie, as it showed you how much I love you and how much I cared for your wellbeing…  but I was convinced not to do it, because it would have been too much… Just as I took the final decision not to send it to you, the song I sang for you started playing on the radio, as to tell me, it is not the right choice. Every day I am seeing signs, from the smallest to the biggest ones... .
 
With all this love, I couldn't understand why we couldn't make our relationship work and to help me, I have consulted a lot of people: professionals, friends... .I have been reading different books and bought others that I haven't read yet. After all these researches, all this questioning and all this thinking, I think I have found one of the most important reasons. When you feel ready, I would really like to meet with you, because I think it would we a life changing information for the best.

I hope this message will reach its objectives and prove to you that I have never let you down.

Je t'aime"

I don't know if you feel I am accusing him, but I tried to explain how I felt. My goal is that, following that message, he will contact me and I can tell him my concerns... .make him understand that I understand a bit better how he must feel and that it is treatable. That I think he should get diagnosed for himself, for his kids and that I want to always be there for him... .If the outcome of the meeting isn't good, if the meeting takes place, I was thinking about preparing documents of my research:

1 - Proving I was scared to meet with him and that he needs help (because I know he will probably deny it. Emails from a friend, from his ex-wife, from therapists I have consulted and extract of books I have found that matches what they said and what I have told him several time);
2 - Articles showing that he is not alone, he is not the only one who feels the way he does and that it is treatable (not like he thinks and that his life is over);
3 - Messages that shows how much I love him and care about him. Actually, how much we love each other and how sad it would be to put an end to such a beautiful love, because of problems that, to me, can be overcome.

Do you think it is a good plan? Knowing I am just starting to get acquainted with that condition, I know I might still make mistake, but I really tried to put all the chances on my side. I had my letter read by three other people before you and they think it is perfect, but unlike you, they don't know about BPD.

As for your response Schwing, I will read it more attentively tonight... .As I am French, I have a hard time understand the meaning of your message, but I really do appreciate that you took the time to write to me and will make sure I do understand everything and will write to you later.

Thank you so very much Tattered Heart and Schwing.

[Meili]

I would like to join Tattered Heart and schwing in welcoming you to the boards. From reading your posts, it sounds like you are struggling with what you are learning and how to best help him. Many of us experience that; I certainly did.

It also sounds like you are are trying to figure out how to best help and cope with your own feelings of love and loss in the most expedition manner possible. Does that sound right?

TH and schwing have both shared some great insight and wisdom with you. I hope that you take a moment to pause, breath, and reread what they have written.

I want to echo what schwing said about how people with BPD traits cope and project onto others, especially those close to them. I know that you said that you are learning, but I would caution you against sending a letter like the one that you wrote until you've learned a bit more.

Please do not take this as being judgmental, but it comes from a place of experience and understanding. When you make statements like:

I didn't mean for you to think that I thought you didn't care about my feelings or my thoughts with that message. I was simply pointing out one thing that you do that was hurting me and you and the consequences of it, in the hope that we could be happier.

... .//... .

In the past when you have said I am putting you down, I analyze what I said to understand what I said wrong and find a way to say it differently the next time, so my real intentions, my real message can be understood the way I meant it.

... .//... .

It is hard for me as my intentions are not your perception of my message.

... .//... .

It is hard for me, because I can’t read your mind and see what makes you perceive what I say the way you do.

the intent is good, but will likely come across is being invalidating of his feelings and lead to more problems.

One of the most important things to keep in mind is that pwBPD (people with BPD) feel things far more intensely than others. The intensity of the emotions overwhelms them and they don't know how to handle things. Often, they will lash out at others and shift the blame.

Your own words make reference to how this plays out:

When I mentioned that by making assumptions you are not only hurting yourself, but you are hurting me too and you deprive me from the right to be heard, you felt like I was putting you down, that I was saying you did not care about my feelings and my thoughts in general.

You said that you were trying to explain how the assumptions were causing problems, but he took it as your putting him down. I presume that he did so in a defensive manner. Is that correct?

While we can never know what goes through the mind of another, it is entirely possible that you triggered a shame response (another major component for many pwBPD) and he responded not to the shame that he felt, but rather shifted the blame to you. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like to me.

As for the rest of your letter. I can easily see how others would find it to be a very sweet, kind, loving, and thoughtful thing to write. But, looking at it from the perspective of how a pwBPD might read it changes things. I can see how it could be quite triggering. You may want to rethink sending it.

[MLJPD]

Good afternoon Meili,

Thank you so very much for your insight, even though what you say and what Schwing scares the hell out of me, because it leaves me at a point where I do not know what to say or what to do anymore. You know, we both love each other desperately and we wanted to spend the rest of our life together. Even the last time we spoke, he told me something like: "There is not one day where I didn't want to be with you. I have lost my reason to live." and he was talking about me, but it appears that no matter what I say, no matter how I say it, he will always feel like I am putting him down, even if I don't and that I am only talking about how I feel in a situation. I feel stuck, I feel like no problem can ever be solved, because I can't talk about it and we can't move forward. I have been working on that letter for weeks and it will still be perceived like putting him down if I send it to him. Can you please help me understand? Guide me to know how to talk to him... .books to read, courses to attend... .Right now, we haven't spoke since September 26 and all I want is to contact him, but I don't know what to say, as I don't want to hurt him and I don't want him to think I have given up. I am going nuts. When you are saying: "As for the rest of your letter. I can easily see how others would find it to be a very sweet, kind, loving, and thoughtful thing to write. But, looking at it from the perspective of how a pwBPD might read it changes things. I can see how it could be quite triggering. You may want to rethink sending it." Can you tell me how the rest of my letter could be considered like triggering. I really don't understand. I am so confused, I feel like I am playing with a bomb and I do not know what I am doing and when it is going to blow in my face. I am saying how much I love him and it could be setting him off? I am really in pain here.

[Meili]

Good Afternoon to you, MLJPD, as well.

I'm sorry that schwing and I have added to your fears. I think that he and I are both keenly aware of how frightening all of this is. We want to support you and help you find the best advice possible to give you the best chance at salvaging the relationship.

I can really relate to not knowing what to say for fear of making things worse. I found myself in a constant cycle of wanting to talk and express what is going on but either not doing it or making a real mess of things when I did. Then I found out about validation.

At first, that didn't work very well, but that is because I wasn't actually listening to what my x was telling me. I had to learn to Listen with Empathy. I had to stop listening to her words and start listening to the meaning that she was conveying. That's why I pulled the example of his reaction from your letter.

Being empathetic and trying to say validating things didn't always work though. I struggled with why that was for a long time. Then I stumbled upon a lesson here about not being invalidating. I was shocked to learn all of the things that I did and said that were invalidating.

"I didn't mean it that way!"

"... .but that's not... ."

"This is what happened"

"I was only trying to... ."

"I can see why you would feel that way, but... ."

Those were a few of the invalidating things that I would say all of the time. Audible sighs, eye rolling, huffing, throwing my hands up in disgust and walking away were also things that I was doing that were invalidating to her.

As I said, under normal circumstances, your letter would be very sweet and loving. We aren't dealing with the normal here though. Communicating in a manner in which most of us are not taught is a skill that will go a long way to helping calm the situation.

Focusing on your objective and what is within your control is really all that can be done. Drudging up things from the past will only serve to bring them to the surface again, and I'm going to guess that isn't your goal. Besides, you cannot change them now anyway.

What you can control is how you act from this point forward. If you want to show him that things are going to be different because you have a better understanding, then show him rather than telling him. Instead of writing a long letter, why not short, sweet, bright, shiny, lovingly-indifferent, and go from there with the new you when you are ready to show that new you?

Which would you prefer from him?

[MLJPD]

This is indeed very hard, because I am a very logical person and this doesn't make sense to me. I am all heart, I am very sensitive and empathic, but I am very logical too. Even though I understand I need to adapt to his condition and I know it might sound awful, but what I feel is that it doesn't make sense that he has the problem and I am the one who needs to change if we want to make it work. To me, it would be like having doubts that he might have diabetes after making so many researches, he doesn't know about it and I let him suffer, because I can't tell him. To me, I am letting him suffer, because if I change, it doesn't help him feel better, he will still feel depressed, scared, anxious, hate life and he doesn't know why, but I do and I can't tell him. He will keep being agressive with his kids and his colleagues. And if I die, he won't be able to have another relationship with somebody else, unless he finds somebody who knows about BPD. I feel like I am over-exaggerating, but as I said, to me it doesn't make sense.

I also understand that the past is past, but if we were never able to talk about it, we can't move forward so it will happen again and again. And if I say something, he interprets it the wrong way, how am I supposed to tell him he didn't understand my message how I meant it. In a message there is what you want to say, what you say and what the other understand. So what I say can be perceived completely differently by him, not because of him, but because of what I said and on top of that, as I said I am French, so it makes it harder, because I sometimes have to think about what I want to say and even people without disorder feels I speak rough, not because I am rough, but people I am passionate and sometimes, I need to think about how to say thing. Ah well, I am sure there is something I don't know yet. Anyhow, I will certainly do my homework and look at that invalidating article. Do you have any books to suggest? Any activities? Although it is hard and scary and I have to admit I am emotionally and physically exhausted, I think I am finally on the right track to know how to talk with him, because of the help all of you and since I am very dedicated and I love him so much, I want to learn. In the meantime, does this mean I shouldn't even contact him?

[Meili]

I don't think that working to save the relationship means that you have to do all of the changing. In the long-run, he's going to have to address his issues in order for the relationship to be sustainable. But, we aren't looking at long-term at this moment.

When I was dealing with my x and our breakup, I felt like what you describe. It felt like when I was able to save the relationship, if something happened to me, she would still have her problems and her life would go right back to where it was. I had to abandon that type of thinking though. I couldn't live for her and make things work. Living that way was part of the problem to begin with. I put more thought into her than into myself. It wasn't healthy and taught her that it was ok to treat me poorly. So, it may be time for you to change your way of thinking about him. As you'll learn, it is one of the best things that you can do because it give you a lot of power back in your life.

As for suggestions of books, we have an entire board devoted to that:

Book Club: Previews and Discussions

I highly recommend Stop Walking on Eggshells

There is also a lot to read in the Lessons thread at the top of this board.

The Relationship Tools and Skills Workshops has more to look at and work on.

It sounds like you are a lot like I was and wanted something to actively be doing to work on saving the relationship. I had to change how I thought about this as well and start to believe that my working on myself was working on the relationship that I was trying to save.

[MLJPD]

At first, I thought I was missing an information, but I think I understand, at least partly. What you are saying here is I have to make the change first, to adapt to his condition and then in the long-run, he is going to have to address his issues... .The part I am missing is, how can a person can address his issues if they are not aware that their behavior is unacceptable, that no body can't tell them about our concern regarding their mental health and they think that what happens is always somebody elses' fault. I guess I am asking too many questions and should get myself educated, before I ask my questions.

I hope I won't sound nosy, but since I am trying to save my Relationship with him and I am trying to help him at the same time (even though, I can't), I wanted to know the reason why you didn't go back with your ex-Partner. Was it by choice?

[Meili]

Whether he is or is not aware that something is wrong is not something that you can actually know until he tells you. He may be completely aware of his intense emotions, confusion, and shifting reality, but is unwilling to admit it or do anything about it because of fear of rejection and abandonment. Having to admit to someone else that something is wrong is not comfortable. It's even more uncomfortable for men in Western cultures. Many won't seek help when there is something physically wrong, much less when there is something wrong mentally or emotionally.

You are not being nosy. My story is on here for anyone to read. I was able to get my failed relationship back to the point where we were talking about reconciliation, communicating daily, and starting to become vulnerable to one another again. As things were calming down, and the idealization and devaluation were over, I realized that I the things that were not BPD related that I didn't like about her outweighed the things that I did. I still love her and will always love her, but there was a lack of common interests that I couldn't deny.

[MLJPD]

I understand, I feel the same way right now and I am not sure what to do about it. He lives on a campground by choice. He will be living there 9 months a year and he will be living in a hotel room for 3 months. He wanted to do that with me last year, 2 months after we moved in our new apartment from Quebec to Ontario for his kids, but we didn't. In two years, we moved 4 times, because he is unstable emotionally and mentally. Everybody I talk to, even my parents who love camping, wouldn't live that way... .Is it part of his condition? I don't know, but I certainly don't want to live like that. Having to change job every time he feels like moving... .I am a CPA and instability is not going to help me find job in the future, but he didn't care about that.

I mean, like I said to my cousin, I feel doomed if I don't try and I feel I would be damned if I do... .I love him so much, but there is just consequences of his condition that are not acceptable. Either way, I feel in hell. And at the same time, I don’t want to come to a point where I decide that it is not what I want and hurt him and I even more. Life is a gamble... .

[Meili]

I've never heard of anything like wanting to live in a tent as part of BPD. At best, it would fall into the category of poor executive control (very impulsive) or immaturity. (That one is hard for me to say considering I'm about to give up my job of 18 years and my home and go live in a tent and hotels/hostels for a year as I explore the world on my motorcycle.)

It may help to not look at things as "consequences of his condition." It is all him. Those are consequences of being with him. Around here, we talk about this as Radical Acceptance. It is about accepting the whole person and all that comes with it.

Have the two of you tried couple's counseling to see if you can find ways to negotiate and work through some of the issues?

[MLJPD]

He is not living in a tent, but in a trailer on a campground in the same campground as his parents who live in the retired section of the campground all year long, but he lives in the 9 months section. He has three kids which he sees every second weekends.

If I read you correctly, I should live as if he doesn't have BPD, knowing he does, but acting like the way he is, is who he is and accepting everything, even the unacceptable without saying anything or just leave, if I am not happy about it.

We have talked about it a year ago, but never did it and I suggested to do it last summer after we broke up and I think he was maybe thinking about it, but because he wanted me to apologize for something I said when we broke up and I just couldn't, because I would have lied if I said I didn't mean it, he said that he didn't want to try, because it was hurting too much to know that I really thought that about him. So we are at a point where we both love each other, we want to be together, but I feel like I am doing the effort to try to make it work and I am not too sure he does. We are at a point where I feel like he doesn't take responsibilities for anything he has done, he is blaming everything on me and says that I am the one who needs help. I am getting help, but he doesn't. I feel like, in his head, if a relationship is to work, no changes or efforts need to be done on his part.

[Meili]

If I read you correctly, I should live as if he doesn't have BPD, knowing he does, but acting like the way he is, is who he is and accepting everything, even the unacceptable without saying anything or just leave, if I am not happy about it.

Not exactly. As with any physical/mental condition, there must be some balance between living as if nothing is wrong and allowing it to dictate everything. As talked about in the article "What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship," you have to have be realistic.

Realistic Expectations: A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills - especially in times of stress.  If you are in this type of relationship it is important to have realistic expectations for what the relationship can be in terms of consistent respect, trust and support, honesty and accountability, and in terms of negotiation and fairness, or expectations of non-threatening behavior.  It is important to accept the relationship behavior for what it is - not hope the person will permanently return to the idealization phase, not accept the external excuses for the bad behavior, and not hope that changing your behavior to heal someone else.

A lot of people come here wondering if they have to do all the work to change things. As I wrote earlier, that isn't what needs (or should for that matter) to happen. Learning how to communicate differently isn't the same thing as changing who we are.  Plus, there is no downside to it. The new communication skills help in all areas of life.

Is it worth revisiting the idea of counseling?

[MLJPD]

To me that is the hard part to understand or to see a solution... .As I am learning about BPD, I know that the major issues we have comes from that condition, including the fact that he distorts reality, he blames everything on me, his needs comes first and don't take responsibilities for anything. Because of his hypersensitivity, I can't tell him that I suspect he has BPD, so he can't get the proper treatment for himself and for his kids. So, how can he make work on himself, if he thinks he is not at fault and I can't tell him he is doing something unacceptable. Maybe it is in the way I say it? So, for me, if he doesn't take responsibilities for anything and it is all my fault, I was wondering how effective counselling could be? I am ready to try anything that might help us understand each other, because to me, that is the most difficult thing here. We cannot communicate properly and see if what we want can be met. I just need to find a way to suggest it to him again.

The funny thing is, I read that part where it says: "A person with BPD is emotionally underdeveloped and does not have "adult" emotional skills." and it reminded me that he told me something in the line that he was a baby and that I had to treat him like a child.  Kind of hard since I am not a mother.

[Meili]

It may really help you to stop thinking in terms of can't. At this moment, things are what they are, and it is what you have to work with. Tomorrow, something may change and you'll have something more to work with.

None of us knows if he truly believes that everything is your fault. We don't know if what he may hear in counseling that may help him or make him see things differently (the same holds true for you for that matter).

As you pointed out, changing how you say things may have a big impact on how he hears them. There are different communication techniques that we can use to better help the other person hear what we are trying to convey. We talk a lot about SET and DEARMAN, but there are others that are useful in specific situations. You can read more about them here.

[MLJPD]

Thank you very much Meili. I really appreciate your insights. I will read everything you have suggested and try to find the best way to reach out to him.

[Meili]

You're most welcome. We are here to help one another. Perhaps, as you learn more and when you are comfortable, you can reach out to other members and share what you are learning and have learned. It really does help all. You get to see how much you've learned and make sure that you completely understand it and the other members get the benefit of your experience.

I think that another article that is important for you to read is "Anosognosia and Getting a "Borderline" into Therapy." It discusses some of the perils and pitfalls with trying to get a loved one to see what you see and get them into therapy, as well as some suggestions on how to do it. The process is slow and cannot be rushed. You will have to allow him to lead as you slowly guide him.

But, before you can ever get to that point, you'll have work on some of the larger problems like trust, the problem with where he wants to live, etc.

[MLJPD]

And you think that needs to be addressed in couple therapy?

[MLJPD]

Oh and the other thing, as I said before, he is unstable and he is unfortunately not happy anymore. So, where he wants to live might change from one day to another. When we were living in Quebec, he hated it and when we moved to Ontario to be closer to his kids, he said that if he didn't have kids, we would be living in Quebec, because he felt more at peace, he could relax more easily... .Does it have anything to do with BPD? So, to me it is hard to understand and that instability is difficult. Not only because I know how much he suffers, but also because it scares the hell out of me to have to change every time.

[schwing]

To me that is the hard part to understand or to see a solution... .As I am learning about BPD, I know that the major issues we have comes from that condition, including the fact that he distorts reality, he blames everything on me, his needs comes first and don't take responsibilities for anything. Because of his hypersensitivity, I can't tell him that I suspect he has BPD, so he can't get the proper treatment for himself and for his kids. So, how can he make work on himself, if he thinks he is not at fault and I can't tell him he is doing something unacceptable. Maybe it is in the way I say it?

"Proper treatment" for BPD is very limited and may wholly depend upon the willingness and desire for the pwBPD to seek recovery.  Anti depressants may be prescribed, but all that does is lessen the degree of their emotional spikes.  Such medication do nothing to address why they experience these emotions in the first place.  And yes, part of the problem is that when their emotions are sufficient strong, they distort their reality. But the reality that becomes distorted only applies to their closest relationships such as family and loved ones.  To the rest of society, they are sufficiently functional. This is probably part of the reason why there is such a stigma against this illness.  Professionals find helping pwBPD very difficult.

So, for me, if he doesn't take responsibilities for anything and it is all my fault, I was wondering how effective counselling could be? I am ready to try anything that might help us understand each other, because to me, that is the most difficult thing here. We cannot communicate properly and see if what we want can be met. I just need to find a way to suggest it to him again.

Counseling might be effective as an outlet for their disordered emotions.  If they are able to vent/express their distortions to their therapist, perhaps they will not have so much to vent upon their loved ones.  There was a period of time in my BPD relationship that my BPD loved one was seeing a therapist.  I thought she needed the extra support because (I believed) she was having difficulty grieving over the death of her best friend and house mate.  :)uring that time, I think our relationship felt quite stable from my perspective.  But in retrospect, I would not be surprised if she spent much of her time expressing a distorted perspective of our relationship.  Months later after breaking up, she did tell me that I should get professional help which I did but probably not for the reasons she imagined I needed.

We are at a point where I feel like he doesn't take responsibilities for anything he has done, he is blaming everything on me and says that I am the one who needs help. I am getting help, but he doesn't. I feel like, in his head, if a relationship is to work, no changes or efforts need to be done on his part.

His attitude does not bode well for the prospect of his recovery, or for your relationship.  You'll need to ask yourself if you are able to accept his unwillingness to change if you re-engage in your relationship with him.

Oh and the other thing, as I said before, he is unstable and he is unfortunately not happy anymore. So, where he wants to live might change from one day to another. When we were living in Quebec, he hated it and when we moved to Ontario to be closer to his kids, he said that if he didn't have kids, we would be living in Quebec, because he felt more at peace, he could relax more easily... .Does it have anything to do with BPD? So, to me it is hard to understand and that instability is difficult. Not only because I know how much he suffers, but also because it scares the hell out of me to have to change every time.

One if those most important qualities (to me) I have observed about people with BPD is that what seems to consistently trigger their disordered feeling are episodes of closeness and being like family.  I do not doubt that being around his children can be a massive trigger for his episodes.  And I suspect that when he feels particularly close to his children that this happens.  For example, this will happen during a birthday.  Or during some family holiday that has emotional significance to him.  And I would not be surprised if he is never able to make this connection.  From his perspective, he will alway believe they did something to ruin the occasion.

I wonder if he stays in any one place long enough, and is living with someone else, at some point he will feel sufficiently connected to that person that it triggers his disordered emotions.  I think this is why for those of us who are still living with our BPD loved ones, the most stable situation is if we live with them as if they are only roommates and not as spouses or family.

[MLJPD]

Oh and I wanted to say, that yes, of course, if I am learning enough to be able to help other people, I will for sure share my experience if I decide that living like a roommate with my fiance is what I want to experience. I have a lot of thinking and reading to do, as I now have more information to work with. More information to consider.

Thank you again Meili, I really really appreciate everything you have told me, all your help. Although it hurts and makes me come back on earth, that there is no magical solutions, despite all the hard work I was willing to put in it, I am glad I have the real information now and help me make my decisions.

[Meili]

A counselor can help you both communicate your needs better and find possible solutions.

The DSM says that pwBPD have periods of anxiety that typically last for a few hours, but rarely for more than a few days. The full list of symptoms is here:

• Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. (Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)
• A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation.
• Identity disturbance: markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self.
• Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex,substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating). (Note: Do not include suicidal or self-mutilating behavior covered in Criterion 5.)
• Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior.
• Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria,irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days).
• Chronic feelings of emptiness.
• Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights).
• Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms.

We are not doctors, and are not qualified to diagnose. It is possible, as schwing said that staying in one place and getting too close to someone may be triggering. But we can't actually know.

Why would you change all the time if you don't want to?

As for the living like a roommate. I'd ask some of the folks over on the Improving board if that is indeed their experience.

[MLJPD]

I have indeed read those symptoms and I would say he fits some of them, but what made me believe he really does is when I read a book about BPD and NPD and I felt like I was reading my life with him... .I can't be sure and I don't know to what extent this affect who he is, but I guess it doesn't really matter.

In his case, he actually do not make frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment, but he was always scared that I would leave him, that I would find someone better than him... .He was scared of abandonment and when we were fighting, instead of working things out with me, he was pushing me away, making me lose credibility about anything I was saying and he even was trying to make me believe that thing that happened didn't really happen. Thing he said that he never said... .these two, if I rely on my book, would be more NPD, but he seems to have both. And when I talked to one of his friend, she told me that she was forcing him to take his medication, otherwise he was a completely different person and she even thrown him out of her place, one time that he didn't take them. However, his medication was anti-depressant and like you said, it only solve part of the problems, but she said that if he did take those pills, we wouldn't fight as much... .But he doesn't the side effect of them and he has never taken them while he was with me.

[Meili]

The side effects can be bad, and if you can get back to the point of being an influence, maybe you can suggest that he tell his doctor and get a different med that won't have the same side effects. But, as you know, you cannot control what he does, just what you do. So, that's what we want to focus on.

One way to stop having him try to convince you of things when you fight is to stop fighting. Many people around here engage in [abbr]=Don't "JADE" (justify, argue, defend, explain)]JADE'ing[/abbr]. They try to justify, argue, defend, or explain. This doesn't work when a person is in a highly emotional state (dysregulated). It's usually best to not try to use logic or reason to try to convince the other person about how we see things at that point. Some of the communication tools can be used later when things are calm to help with that.