Intro and just seeking info to help my son the rescuer

[Our abuse recovery guide]

My son recently became engaged to a girl he has been dating for two and a half years. He is a little over 21 and she recently turned 22. My husband and I have had our conflicts with her in the past when she has come with our son on visits home from college and when she has visited over summer breaks. Their college is 90 minutes north of us, and an hour's drive south of her home. My husband frequently says our son, who is an only child, is quick to give his heart away because he seriously dated one girl long-distance during high school, and they were talking about attending the same college within three months of meeting, and he dated another girl who was a sophomore during his senior year of high school and for the first few months of college. He was talking to her about marriage which led to her having a panic attack and eventually breaking up with him a few months after starting college. He and his fiancee were already discussing marriage after dating for a couple of months. Initially, she frequently  referred to him as an "amazing man" and "the perfect guy," and even told him she felt like he was meant to be her husband just a few weeks after they started dating. I have since read that this idealization of a partner is fairly typical of someone w BPD. We initially thought that she was either still very immature, wasn't raised with boundaries, wasn't told no very often at home (she's a major daddy's girl and is the baby since she only has a sister who is 3 yrs older), wasn't used to socializing as an adult with her own parents, etc. Her parents are very different in that her father caters to all 3 women in the house, and her mom has even stated how much she likes not having her girls at home (our son says it's because she has to compete with them for what her husband does for her when they're around), her mother won't allow her daughter to do her own laundry when she's home or clear out her own clothes that she no longer wears (we've also been told her mom's a hoarder) because she has her own system. Our son said when he visits their house that they really don't converse with him or their daughter. They tend to just watch reality tv shows. Mom sounds like she pretty much rules the roost and dad goes along w whatever she says and wants. We've had dinner with them a handful of times, and we tend to ask questions and they answer. The other somewhat odd thing to occur that made us wonder about boundaries is that whenever our son visits their 3 bedroom house, if he and their daughter want to be alone, they go to her bedroom and close the door, and they have always had our son sleep on an air mattress in his girlfriend's/fiancee's bedroom vs on the living room couch or in the empty bedroom. Her mom told them she likes to watch tv early on her spot on the couch and doesn't want to see him there when she gets up. Her parents rarely hug her goodbye and we've never heard them say I love you to her or vice versa. I have an M.S. in Mental Health Counseling but haven't had a license or practiced since our son was born. Numerous red flags have led me to research what might be going on with our future d-i-l (she spends $ impulsively and frivolously to the point where our son once said if they ever end up together he's worried she'll bleed them dry), friends of mine have talked about ways she has manipulated our son, she lies to avoid uncomfortable situations, she binge eats certain foods - a whole jar of pickles or a whole box of cereal at one time (she doesn't have a weight issue but our son has occasionally had to force her to eat because she was going for long periods of the day not eating to avoid weight gain but then almost fainting), she seems to be really up or really down and becomes like a pouting child when her plans go awry, she's an obsessive planner, she has had bad experiences with every college roommate she's had, she really doesn't have any close friends, she and her sister don't get along very well, and she becomes very self-conscious and anxious in social situations. She also frequently butts heads with her mom but thinks her father can do no wrong. We've had calls from our son after they've had arguments (he's always been very conflict avoidant and been called a "peacemaker" with him questioning if he's "in the wrong" because she has exploded and stormed away. He was actually crying the last time it happened because they argued about the timing of their wedding date. He said he was afraid he was going to lose her if he didn't agree with the date she and her mom had already put on the church calendar (he graduates this Dec but has to have a Masters for his degree. He can't start graduate school until next Aug and then it will take two years for his degree). He won't know where he's been accepted until the end of next March. Of the six schools he's applied to, three of them would have finals the week before the date she put on the calendar, and two would have them the week after the date. We were trying to tell him that date may not work if it's during finals. When he called crying and said he was worried he was going to lose her, I said if she would walk away (which I'm supposing she probably threatened for him to say this) over a disagreement about a wedding date, then there must not have been much of a relationship to begin with. She actually arranged for engagement photos one WEEK after the proposal last month, and the wedding is tentatively scheduled for May 2019! When I started putting all of these issues together and doing research, she seems to meet the criteria for BPD. When I mentioned these concerns to my husband, he became defensive of her and said, "But she has good qualities too." I said, "I agree she has good qualities (she's a hard worker, she loves working and is good with elderly people and is going to be a Social Worker with that population, she is a very generous gift giver, etc) but shame on you. I'm saying I think she may have a mental disorder and you are confusing that with me saying she's a bad person. If I was concerned she had cancer and started describing her symptoms that I was concerned about, would you have the same reply?" Then he said, "So what do we do and how do we help both of them?" I told him I wasn't sure but I was going to try to find resources to help us. Ironically, we frequently tell our son that he can't "walk on eggshells" or try to tiptoe around issues because he's worried about her reaction. He has said, "Oh no, I would never say such and such because that would set her off." So, I found the book Stop Walking on Eggshells, which I'm now reading and that led me here for suggestions, feedback and insight.

[Unsurefuturemil]

My son recently became engaged to a girl he has been dating for two and a half years. He is a little over 21 and she recently turned 22. My husband and I have had our conflicts with her in the past when she has come with our son on visits home from college and when she has visited over summer breaks. Their college is 90 minutes north of us, and an hour's drive south of her home. My husband frequently says our son, who is an only child, is quick to give his heart away because he seriously dated one girl long-distance during high school, and they were talking about attending the same college within three months of meeting, and he dated another girl who was a sophomore during his senior year of high school and for the first few months of college. He was talking to her about marriage which led to her having a panic attack and eventually breaking up with him a few months after starting college. He and his fiancee were already discussing marriage after dating for a couple of months. Initially, she frequently  referred to him as an "amazing man" and "the perfect guy," and even told him she felt like he was meant to be her husband just a few weeks after they started dating. I have since read that this idealization of a partner is fairly typical of someone w BPD. We initially thought that she was either still very immature, wasn't raised with boundaries, wasn't told no very often at home (she's a major daddy's girl and is the baby since she only has a sister who is 3 yrs older), wasn't used to socializing as an adult with her own parents, etc. Her parents are very different in that her father caters to all 3 women in the house, and her mom has even stated how much she likes not having her girls at home (our son says it's because she has to compete with them for what her husband does for her when they're around), her mother won't allow her daughter to do her own laundry when she's home or clear out her own clothes that she no longer wears (we've also been told her mom's a hoarder) because she has her own system. Our son said when he visits their house that they really don't converse with him or their daughter. They tend to just watch reality tv shows. Mom sounds like she pretty much rules the roost and dad goes along w whatever she says and wants. We've had dinner with them a handful of times, and we tend to ask questions and they answer. The other somewhat odd thing to occur that made us wonder about boundaries is that whenever our son visits their 3 bedroom house, if he and their daughter want to be alone, they go to her bedroom and close the door, and they have always had our son sleep on an air mattress in his girlfriend's/fiancee's bedroom vs on the living room couch or in the empty bedroom. Her mom told them she likes to watch tv early on her spot on the couch and doesn't want to see him there when she gets up. Her parents rarely hug her goodbye and we've never heard them say I love you to her or vice versa. I have an M.S. in Mental Health Counseling but haven't had a license or practiced since our son was born. Numerous red flags have led me to research what might be going on with our future d-i-l (she spends $ impulsively and frivolously to the point where our son once said if they ever end up together he's worried she'll bleed them dry), friends of mine have talked about ways she has manipulated our son, she lies to avoid uncomfortable situations, she binge eats certain foods - a whole jar of pickles or a whole box of cereal at one time (she doesn't have a weight issue but our son has occasionally had to force her to eat because she was going for long periods of the day not eating to avoid weight gain but then almost fainting), she seems to be really up or really down and becomes like a pouting child when her plans go awry, she's an obsessive planner, she has had bad experiences with every college roommate she's had, she really doesn't have any close friends, she and her sister don't get along very well, and she becomes very self-conscious and anxious in social situations. She also frequently butts heads with her mom but thinks her father can do no wrong. We've had calls from our son after they've had arguments (he's always been very conflict avoidant and been called a "peacemaker" with him questioning if he's "in the wrong" because she has exploded and stormed away. He was actually crying the last time it happened because they argued about the timing of their wedding date. He said he was afraid he was going to lose her if he didn't agree with the date she and her mom had already put on the church calendar (he graduates this Dec but has to have a Masters for his degree. He can't start graduate school until next Aug and then it will take two years for his degree). He won't know where he's been accepted until the end of next March. Of the six schools he's applied to, three of them would have finals the week before the date she put on the calendar, and two would have them the week after the date. We were trying to tell him that date may not work if it's during finals. When he called crying and said he was worried he was going to lose her, I said if she would walk away (which I'm supposing she probably threatened for him to say this) over a disagreement about a wedding date, then there must not have been much of a relationship to begin with. She actually arranged for engagement photos one WEEK after the proposal last month, and the wedding is tentatively scheduled for May 2019! When I started putting all of these issues together and doing research, she seems to meet the criteria for BPD. When I mentioned these concerns to my husband, he became defensive of her and said, "But she has good qualities too." I said, "I agree she has good qualities (she's a hard worker, she loves working and is good with elderly people and is going to be a Social Worker with that population, she is a very generous gift giver, etc) but shame on you. I'm saying I think she may have a mental disorder and you are confusing that with me saying she's a bad person. If I was concerned she had cancer and started describing her symptoms that I was concerned about, would you have the same reply?" Then he said, "So what do we do and how do we help both of them?" I told him I wasn't sure but I was going to try to find resources to help us. Ironically, we frequently tell our son that he can't "walk on eggshells" or try to tiptoe around issues because he's worried about her reaction. He has said, "Oh no, I would never say such and such because that would set her off." So, I found the book Stop Walking on Eggshells, which I'm now reading and that led me here for suggestions, feedback and insight.

[No-One]

Hi Unsurefuturemil:
How many traits from the DSM criteria does she meet?  (see link from the first menu within the large green band at the top of the page).  It's common for people to have a few BPD traits, in varying degrees, and still not meet the criteria for a BPD diagnosis.  That being said, just a couple of strong BPD traits could make someone a poor choice for a life partner. 

Both you future DIL and her mother sound like "high maintenance women".  Minimally, it sounds like your son's fiance has some anxiety issues that she may not be managing in a healthy manner.  I can understand your concern.  Mothers want their son to be in a healthy relationship, and not be a care taker for someone who lacks emotional intelligence and has mental health issues.

When he called crying and said he was worried he was going to lose her, I said if she would walk away (which I'm supposing she probably threatened for him to say this) over a disagreement about a wedding date, then there must not have been much of a relationship to begin with. She actually arranged for engagement photos one WEEK after the proposal last month, and the wedding is tentatively scheduled for May 2019! 

Do you have any theory about why your son became attached to his fiance so fast?  Is she extremely good looking? Does your son tend to be co-dependent? 

Is there any chance to convince your son to get some solo counseling.  It would help him to learn about/reinforce boundary skills and communication strategies.   Premarital counseling is a good thing to do before marriage?  It can help to have someone facilitate the hard questions that so many couples leave unanswered before marriage.  (i.e. finances, children, religion, etc.).  If he can't have a mature conversation about issues now, he won't likely have mature discussions after marriage. 

Sounds like if he marries her, he is destined to be a clone of her father, unless he becomes assertive now.  Behaviors that he sees now will likely increase after marriage.  Some manage to restrain their behavior and then let it all hang out after marriage, so things rarely get better after marriage.

I've read accounts here, where some sons tell their fiance/wife everything negative/critical their parents say.  Hopefully, you son can hold what you might say to him as confidential.  You might want to search for other post about DIL's.  There seems to be a common theme.  MIL's and family have to keep conflicting opinions to theirself and definitely stay off of social media that DIL has access to (or someone tells her about).  If they don't, they are in jeopardy of being cut totally out of their son's life.

I hope that none of this holds true for you.  Some stories have even started out that things were great with DIL.  Then, for some perceived slight, MIL, FIL or someone in the son's family is painted/split black.  It's generally hard to come back from that, if at all. 

[Turkish]

You've got a positive start in that your son still trusts you and isn't alienated against you.  A lot of mothers find their ways here after marriage,  kids,  and alienation (emotional cut off) in full swing. 

Given that your son still trusts you, I'd lean towards validation with him.  Validation isn't only for people with BPD (pwBPD). This book is geared towards little kids,  but you might glean useful communication styles from it:

The Power of Validation

My son is kind of a "rescuer" also.  My goal isn't to fix that,  but to teach him boundaries and what's acceptable in healthy relationships. Since your son is on a relationship, engaged apparently,  it might be good to ask him what his view is of a healthy relationship or marriage.  Toss the ball into his court, let him talk, and validate him.  As a parent,  I'd want to say,  "can you imagine yourself married to this woman twenty years from now,  with kids given her controlling behaviors (not to mention her mother). Is this what you really want out of life?" Probably not good out of the gate, though it might come later.  Better to meet him where he is at emotionally. 

[Notwendy]

I've read accounts here, where some sons tell their fiance/wife everything negative/critical their parents say.  Hopefully, you son can hold what you might say to him as confidential. 

Personally, I would not count on this. There are posts where in laws are grieving saying anything because their son reported it to the DIL and she insisted he cut contact with them. I agree with searching for similar posts- there is a lot of information on them.

This is sad and difficult, and especially because your son is so young and seems easily influenced. His fiance seems young and immature as well. Still, they are of legal age to make adult decisions.

I think it is good to read and gain information. You may also consider counseling for yourself - this may seem odd to you- you aren't the one making the decisions your son is, but I do think this is a delicate situation as sadly, it seems that if the DIL senses any kind of concern or disapproval on your part, or that your son is confiding to you, she can insist he break contact with you. His fear of losing her can lead him to comply. Just like other large decisions- legal, taxes- where people may consult and expert, perhaps a counselor with experience with BPD could advise you.

I'm the child of a mother with BPD. In her world, you are either "on her side" ( completely compliant with her wishes) or not on her side. She experiences things through "victim" perspective ( Karpman Triangle). My father was "rescuer". If she was upset with someone, the two of them bonded together against the person, or situation that she felt victimized by. This eventually included me, his adult daughter. I was stunned. I thought I had a good relationship with my father. I also felt I could speak to him in confidence.

I learned that my mother read every e mail I sent him ( they shared an email address) and he told her anything I sad to him. When I called, she listened in on the phone calls. I don't know if this was his idea or not, or she insisted on it.

I learned later from one of his relatives that after he married my mother, they hardly saw them, and hardly saw me when I was a baby ( they did later when I was older).

I've been astounded at the power my mother had over my father. I never imagined that someone could, or would if they could, break family ties like this. Reading these posts helped me to understand how.

This doesn't mean saying nothing or not being supportive to your son-but be informed and do it as wisely as possible. IMHO, I would not say anything about her (as it may get back to her) , yet be supportive to your son if he contacts you. "Son, I love you, and trust you can make the best decisions for you. How would you like us to help you" rather than, "she's bad for you".

I think counseling for him is a great idea if he is willing to do that. If he is in college, there are student health services on campus.

[Notwendy]

Many people with BPD also have good qualities. I can describe my mother as intelligent and attractive, and it was these good qualities that no doubt attracted my father to her. Yet, she also has a mental disorder. You know from your experience that people can have mental disorders and both good and bad personal qualities.

People with BPD can be high functioning- hold jobs and be successful and others are not. They may be able to maintain their composure in public and not in their intimate relationships. It is good that your DIL enjoys working with the elderly and this may be a strength for her, but she can also have BPD as well.