Back for a tuneup

[yeeter]

Hi all,

Several years since I have been here.  But know that all the insight, support, and guidance that I have received from this site was a huge help over the years

I have an uNPD/uBPD spouse, and three young children.  9,11,13.  By my staying, my children have thrived and are doing well.

Heck, I even considered mine a ‘success’ story because with the learnings here, the marriage was more tenable.  Fewer severe blowups.  Me refusing to own things that are not my own to own.  Detachment (with love).  Stop making things worse.  Don’t JADE.  Etc etc.  fantastic life skills

And yet.  Here I am, back to the boards 5+ years later and dealing with the same old stuff.  Absolutely exhausting.

Triggered in part by thoughts of what retirement might look like (hint, the image doesn’t include my wife in any positive way) and a couple friends dying in recent times. 

I am making a difference in my kids lives
I am making a difference in my kids lives
I am making a difference in my kids lives

(I like to remind myself why I am here)

But.  Although I did ok for a while.  I am
Not taking care of myself and am in the dumps again.  Gotta pull out.  Because at the moment I am NOT doing the work needed to keep the relationship stable.  I know what is needed.  I just wore out. 

So come back to this site for a reminder.  Try to reenergize a bit. 

 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

But.  Although I did ok for a while.  I am
Not taking care of myself and am in the dumps again.  Gotta pull out.  Because at the moment I am NOT doing the work needed to keep the relationship stable.  I know what is needed.  I just wore out.  

a strong support system is really crucial. i encourage you not to make this a one off. you dont have to do this alone. we can help and we can get you reenergized. i also encourage you to pass along what you have learned and what has worked to others, as well, it will keep you sharp on your problem solving skills.

can you tell us what the main sources of conflict look like presently?

are you seeing a therapist?

[yeeter]

Ya.  I went into cruise mode for a while with my head in the sand.  I have to say though, it was a refreshing spell to just ‘turn the crank’ on life for a while without any major crisis.

The current funk is self inflicted.  My own unrest from looking into the future and not liking what is there, triggered me.

Did make an appt to get back to see a T.  Although to be honest I am not quite sure what I want out of the session.  Same old stuff.

What helped me... .detachment was big.  Putting some things in place to focus on that does not include my wife.  Getting validation in other ways (being with an NPD means things like this just aren’t possible to get from her)

But on the downside we have done nothing to improve the actual relationship in terms of emotional intimacy and enjoying spending time with each other.  Nothing has worked.  So it was also an exercise in acceptance of what is possible or not.  But with acceptance came a sense of choice.  And I chose to stay.  It’s playing out. 

But as the kids get older they need me less, and there is less for me here.  Which has me reliving the choices.

Hmm... .not sure any of this makes sense and typing on the phone doesn’t help.

My Advice:  figure out at the root, why you stay.  Remind yourself of that daily, as a conscious choice.

If you are feeling ‘stuck’ or trapped or being forced to do something, then comes the emotional suffering (and victim mentality).  Accept your partner for who/what they are.  Figure out your own path then knowing that, with all the limitations that entails.

[heartandwhole]

Hi yeeter,

It’s nice to see you again.   I’m glad you decided to post about what is going on with you, and I echo once removed’s sentiments: a tuneup is always helpful! For you and your family, but also for our members. You have a lot of experience to share.  

Feeling worn down is so understandable. And it’s easy to start slipping in the self-care department. When that happens to me, I don’t feel like myself.

What skill/habit usually “goes” first?

Keep posting. We’re here for you.

heartandwhole

[yeeter]

Am happy to offer any insight that might be useful.  There is certainly no magic bullet.  And I have a saying:  “advice is always free unless you take it!”

What slips away for me is the support network.  Most of my good support people are in other states.  This, combined with the fact I do not need tons of support (have always managed to self support historically), and next thing I look up and realize I haven’t stayed in close communication.

Then another sign is if I am drinking a beer after work.  Not a big drinker (more than one I fall asleep), but when the stress factor gets high I have a beer after work.

The exercise comes and goes, depending on schedule.  Sometimes I can get a hard workout in every day of the week.  It is a huge help and more and more the way I attack stress.

At some point in all this I took up learning to play an instrument.  Some strumming at the end of the day has served as well as that beer.  And am trying to parlay that into some social interaction as part of a group get together

Lots and lots of coaching soccer.  A way to spend more time with the kids.

But it’s the close support network that is the first thing I let slip.  And it is those close personal relationships that are a key part of a healthy lifestyle.  I need to work on getting something more local.

As for what slips first with my wife... .I lose patience to just listen to her.  As an NPD she can talk for hours about herself.  And lecture.  If I don’t defer to her sense of ultimate authority on all matters, then an outburst.  And everything she does is channeled through her own sense of self, and how it affects her.  If I don’t keep my own energy high, it gets tiring and I just tune it out and withdrawal.  Essentially I disengage.  (I can handle being solitude, it’s the engagement in the relationship that wears me out).  So I have to stay on top of that balance else it wears me out. 

[DaddyBear77]

yeeter I’m really glad you came back to check in. It’s long term stories like yours that help give a perspective of what might lie ahead.

You came back for a tune up for you, so I have a question: what makes YOU great? What do you take pride in? Is it being a dad? Is it being someone who stayed even after knowing what might be in store? What keeps you going?

That’s a big question I’m struggling with right now. I thought it might be relevant for you, too. I think it’s so critical that we stay aligned and true to ourselves.

[yeeter]

Hi Daddy,   

What makes ME great?  You know, thank you for the question it is something that has probably slipped from top of mind.  I am smart.  Capable.  Kind.  Very flexible and a good reader of people.    One of my support friends sent me this quote recently and I have never heard it before:

When given the choice between being right, and being kind.  Choose kindness.

I loved it.

Pride:  An easy one, my 3 children who are growing into fantastic people.  And I am going to start using that quote with them (my wife will choose being right, every time, without exception, no matter how my pain that inflicts).  So I am proud of the fact I am here to influence these children and provide them an environment to grow and thrive.  Its not perfect, but I do make a difference.

"Is it being someone who stayed even after knowing what might be in store?"

Nope.  Completely the opposite. I am disappointed in myself, that I let it get to the point of having children.  Not that I dont want, and love my children.  But I let myself be completely destroyed by my wife in the early years.  I didnt have the strength and support network and saavy to understand what was happening and long term implications.  So it got me down and I am living with the consequences now.  The obligation part.   But had I really been healthy, it wouldnt have gotten that far and I would have drawn lines in the early years.

But ok, life is this way.  I had a friend that would say:  "life is a series of lessons.  If you dont learn that lesson the first time dont worry, you will get it again... ."  May be especially true in relationships.

So at this stage I take it as a lesson I learned about myself.  Blind spots.  Maybe a difference between who I once was and who I am now.

But some of the things that I would have said made me great 15 years ago, are no longer a part of me.  And that does make me a little sad.  I think you DO have to give up some things to stay in one of these relationships.  Some good things will need to be let go of.  And that is part of the grieving process.  The traditional model of grieving works - denial anger bargaining depression acceptance.  You have to go through it with respect to your ideals and desires about relationships.  It is never going to be what you thought or imagined going into it.  So be angry.  Denial is your own to face up to at some point.  Bargaining will get you nowhere, you are bargaining with someone that has a disorder.  Depression... .up until you choose to work on it, and that can go on a long time.  Then acceptance.  Which is when you can start putting yourself back together and living the life you want to live, knowing the reality of the situation and what it is and isnt.

My advice is to not fight these emotions.  Let them happen.  I was at a jewish funeral recently and he said these emotions are just your truths.  Embrace them.  Because truths are simply, true. 

OK I digress into the philosophical.  Which is a great luxury to be at vs those of you facing immediate physical danger so my apologies for that.  But long term, I think it requires a bit of philosophy to survive the relationship.  Stay true to yourself as you say.  Develop a very strong sense of 'who' you are and what that self is.  Then DRAW LINES and maintain these lines.  Dont feel guilty about it.  Dont apologize.  (if you find yourself apologizing a lot that is a flag to me.  I did for every little thing.  then finally just stopped apologizing, for dang near anything.  Apologies are just these small concessions that you have done something wrong, whether true or not, and you dont need all the little emotional cuts)

 

[DaddyBear77]

yeeter, you have clearly thought so much about this and your experience is invaluable here. You’re offering some really good advice to others and I really hope you’ll be able to share this with other members in their threads. I find that really helps me a lot when I get stuck so hopefully that aspect works for you too.

As for you and your current situation, how are you feeling today? You mentioned a couple life events that triggered some introspection and consideration. Do you think a refresher on using tools and skills more effectively will help keep things more stable? Are there things changing in your wife’s life that also contribute?

Did you get that appointment with a T yet?

What can you do to remind yourself how valuable and important YOU are, not just as a dad and a husband, but as a person?

[yeeter]

Thanks Daddy.

All the great advice in this site applies.  I did get an appt, it is still a week out but that’s ok, it will give me time to clarify what I want out of it.  Having bfast with and old friend and classmate tomorrow.  Several emails to some longtime friends.  A very nice phone call with a close friend I hadn’t connected with in a while.  Some time in my shop doing hobby stuff.  A little cooking.  Some crafts with the kids. 

Posting here is an outlet.  Maybe not as big an outlet as it once was, but it helps me to help others in any small way that is possible. 

I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to keep things stable.  It is work.  And the self reflection is in part about how long I want to put the energy required into it.  Which is primarily determined by what is best for my kids.  No exact answers, so the question comes up from time to time.  Part of it is that soccer season is over (until Jan indoor season starts), which is a major outlet for me and a way to get quality time with my kids.  Without that time with them, there is less for me here.  It will all kick back in after the holidays.  But a reminder that as they age they need me less.

Yesterday was a tough day for me for whatever reason.  Today was better. 

[pearlsw]

Hi yeeter,

Thank you! I really appreciated your advice. I can imagine me putting things on cruise control at points and then waking up wondering how I got here. I have this question staring me in the face at times to: WHY AM I HERE? I cannot always find the answers. How much of it is obligation, duty, love, fear of the unknown, fear of restarting, how much is really, truly wanting this particular version of my life. The longest relationship I've had is 8 years when I was 17-24 or so... .I begin the 8th year of this one next year and I can't say for sure how long it will go. My whole hearted intention was for a "lifetime" when I started, but... .with breakup threats and instability and other issues related to my career life... .

Do you find that it is better to stay in the present than worry about the future? Or do you need to have a vision out ahead of you that seems clear?

Ya.  I went into cruise mode for a while with my head in the sand.  I have to say though, it was a refreshing spell to just ‘turn the crank’ on life for a while without any major crisis.

The current funk is self inflicted.  My own unrest from looking into the future and not liking what is there, triggered me.

So it was also an exercise in acceptance of what is possible or not.  But with acceptance came a sense of choice.  And I chose to stay.  It’s playing out. 

My Advice:  figure out at the root, why you stay.  Remind yourself of that daily, as a conscious choice.

If you are feeling ‘stuck’ or trapped or being forced to do something, then comes the emotional suffering (and victim mentality).  Accept your partner for who/what they are.  Figure out your own path then knowing that, with all the limitations that entails.

take care, pearlsw.

[yeeter]

I guess it depends on personal style, and what your definition of ‘better’ is.  If you look at your overall life you have to think long term.  But the hear and nownis the present, which is to appreciated along the way.  If you are not enjoying the heat and now, I think you should consider time limiting it.  Then put every ounce of energy and skill and no how you have into making it into something that you can enjoy.  But if still not there when your time limit hits then reset your life to give yourself a chance. 

Just some thoughts.  There is no one way.

Do take a look if you have a pattern of not being able to make difficult decisions.  Often times this one is a decision between two bad (or terrible) choices.  At least it can feel that way.

[yeeter]

Re read this after posting it from the phone, my apologies for all the mis spellings and typos.

Pearlsw asked:  ":)o you find that it is better to stay in the present than worry about the future? Or do you need to have a vision out ahead of you that seems clear? "

What I was trying to say is I think this is somewhat of a personal style question.  For me, life is meant to be lived, responsibly, in the moment; the here/now.  And that needs to be fulfilling.  Pretty much everyone can do things to improve the satisfaction level of living each moment.  To me it is a lot of what mindfulness is all about.  (and I am not expecting all sunshine and roses, but even the difficult times are to be appreciated as part of living life)

At the same time I am a strategy guy, high level and long term.  So do consider 'where do you want to be in 5 years - 10 years - 20 years'?  When you are old and sitting in your rocking chair reflecting back on your life and how you lived it, what do you want to be able to say (and more importantly think) about yourself.  If children, what example do you want to be able to point to and say you demonstrated, as a way to live.  What legacy do you want to leave behind (if anything).  How do you want to have touched people, and what influences do you want to have made.  They can be little things.  The phrase 'nobody ever died wishing they had spent more time at the office' is something to internalize earlier in life while deciding between extra work hours or watching a childs soccer game.

And I tend to think in segmented phases, or chapters.  (like HS, college, jobs, living geography, relationships, et al) - all different phases and chapters in my life.  There will be new ones in my future.

Then for me, I tend not to have many specific concrete 'accomplishments' as a long term goal (the what), and focus more on the 'how'.  How I live my life along the way, is more important to me than a particular trophy or degree or job title.  I have been lucky, the 'how' has enabled good success in the what.  I just didnt lock in on a specific target years in advance, I am flexible this way.  (but know many that do this and it works quite well for them).  Those are my values though, that I do not want to get caught up in "the race to nowhere".  And I like the freedom to change direction and try different paths when the time comes.  Just be mindful of the life you are living along the way.

 

(my apologies if my previous post violated the scope of this topic board, I did re-read the guidelines and mods please feel free to delete)

[yeeter]

Did meet with T.  Did boost some of the support network with more frequent interaction.  Did up the exercise regime. 

Now I need to put some things on the future calendar that are for my own satisfaction, to have something to think about and look forward to.

Survival.  Ongoing.

[Tattered Heart]

Did meet with T.  Did boost some of the support network with more frequent interaction.  Did up the exercise regime. 

Now I need to put some things on the future calendar that are for my own satisfaction, to have something to think about and look forward to.

Survival.  Ongoing.

Do you have personal activities you enjoy doing to fill in on your calendar?

[yeeter]

Yes the basketball/exercise I increased.  It even has a certain social element to it.  And some time in my shop (no social element to that).

Still not in a great place.  Maybe it is the holidays that make us feel more alone than usual (and for sure it is a time that requires more energy into the relationship than usual).

[yeeter]

Today I realized I was slipping back into martyr mode.  That I wasn’t accepting the choice I made to stay in this relationship.  That I am angry at my wife for being this way and ‘trapping’ me into a relationship I do not want to be in.  So am putting no effort into ‘managing the chaos’ when it starts.  I am emotionally tired, and not at all looking forward to the next xxx years with her.

Have been here before.  Need to go back and figure out how to change the thinking again. 

Dang (dang is not nearly strong enough word)

[once removed]

hi yeeter,

Today I realized I was slipping back into martyr mode.  That I wasn’t accepting the choice I made to stay in this relationship.  That I am angry at my wife for being this way and ‘trapping’ me into a relationship I do not want to be in.  So am putting no effort into ‘managing the chaos’ when it starts.

i hear a lot of dissatisfaction with your marriage, and i hear you saying you are in a personal funk, but im not getting a clear picture of the ongoing conflict in your marriage, and im wondering how we can help. what chaos are you experiencing?

are you hesitant to blame her? would you prefer not to share? is it more about the funk and overall dissatisfaction with life?

[yeeter]

Good question.  I am not sure I know exactly.

There is not a lot of conflict, because I have learned how to avoid it.  And that is disengagement and avoidance.  If we never interact except for kid stuff, we get along fine.

But that is not really building a relationship.  Attempts at meaningful conversation become very invalidating, superior, judgmental, one upmanship, etc.  At least to me this is how it feels.  So I do not enjoy interacting on even simple Conversation. 

Any attempts at discussing just these feelings are met with ‘me’ having a problem (npd’s are not good at assuming any form of responsibility).  Any pressure towards this and it deregulates quickly.
 
It is not rewarding. Although the blowups and hostile outbursts have subsided, it is due to having no meaningful interaction.  (I have failed to actually address these items to a satisfying degree, instead just putting my head in the sand).  I haven’t done the work.   

[yeeter]

Was thinking about this more. Always takes me a while to digest stuff.  It is not so much that there is no conflict, it is just that it has become ‘comminplace’ And the rest of us adapt and go with it and don’t let it bother us.

An example:  last Xmas eve, the family and my wife’s brother and mother were all in the car returning from church service.  It was a packed day and still dinner waiting and some presents.  She wanted to take a drive and look at houses/lights. Which can be nice but nobody else was interested, and this time we said so.  This triggered deregulation and her yelling at us all in how terrible we are, etc etc.  Then when we got home she spent the rest of the evening in her bedroom. 

The rest of us ate and had Xmas eve dinner without her.   She came down after it was done and had a snack then we all went to bed and she stayed up late talking to her mother

So that is ‘conflict’ per se.  But we managed it to where it didn’t upset the rest of it, just something ‘normal’ to be dealt with along the way.  Stop making things worse.

Not the ideal Xmas eve I would imagine.  But just, reality. 

I guess I am so numb to it all nothing seems outrageous anymore.

So yes, managing the conflict.  Which keeps the house a better environment for my kids.  But not exactly modeling healthy behavior.  And it wore me down.

I read recently this article saying part of the responsibility in a relationship is communicating when you aren’t getting you needs met.  And I was thinking I have failed I do that so it is on me to own.  But then thought about it and still feel it is just not possible to have such a conversation.  Then worry that I am ‘owning too much’, and not drawing lines that she needs to take some small responsibility for  (but again, she cannot since it is a disorder)

I guess this is what it is to be a caretaker to someone with a disability.  I hate the thought of my children becoming this role, and it is already happening with my 11yo.  If I left the marriage this would become a huge problem for them and would be entwined for life.

Aiy.  Thanks for all the patience while I sort this through.  No simple or ‘good’ answers

[teapay]

Youve tried so hard to make this relationship work through using the tools you've normalized her behavior and still lost yourself.  That is one of my biggest beefs with over reliance on validation and radical acceptance.  Boundaries and their enforcement are the answer.  Nons need to utilize them until the poinT where the non is comfortable with the relationship without being exhausted.  The boundaries are also there to help the BPD learn how to live without relying on a population of codependents and other chumps, so they can be more independent.  They need to be forced taught almost like a child and not like retards.  Often the explode and implode.  That's life.

[SweetCharlotte]

As for what slips first with my wife... .I lose patience to just listen to her.  As an NPD she can talk for hours about herself.  And lecture.  If I don’t defer to her sense of ultimate authority on all matters, then an outburst.  And everything she does is channeled through her own sense of self, and how it affects her.  If I don’t keep my own energy high, it gets tiring and I just tune it out and withdrawal.  Essentially I disengage.  (I can handle being solitude, it’s the engagement in the relationship that wears me out).  So I have to stay on top of that balance else it wears me out. 

yeeter,
My situation is similar to yours (back on the board because I started to burn out and forget). I can relate above all to your paragraph above. I am losing the patience for listening to all the anecdotes and other ways that he endlessly filters everything through his own experiences and perspective. When things were good, we called this stuff his "minutiae." When things are not going well (like now), we can't joke about it; it becomes deadly serious. If I can't show that I'm listening, or if I look away for a few moments while we are on FaceTime (we have a long-distance marriage), he incriminates me. I will make a post of my own soon. I just wanted to let you know I am savoring this paragraph, and I'm exhausted too.

[Grey Kitty]

  yeeter, I'm remembering prior times you were active, and so was I, and thinking of you a bit.

Today I'm going to sign the paperwork on my divorce, after being separated for three years, and having truly given up on the marriage for the last two of them... .so I really am no longer in a visceral place to offer much as somebody who is in a relationship and working on it, although my ex and I are still civil and even a bit friendly... .except that I refuse to let myself trust her emotionally, despite longing for that connection still.

My advice is do what you have to do to stay married and stay sane/healthy, since you clearly are choosing to stay married to give your kids a better life than they would have if you divorced.

Do it with realistic expectations of who your wife is. You need emotional support, and you need friendly safe interactions with people that you don't have to worry about managing conflict when they dysregulate.

Perhaps your wife will be capable of doing this for you *someday*, after years or at least months of work. But she can't now, or at least can't do it consistently, and relying on it is how you got burnt out like you are today.

Take care of yourself. Build a life for yourself that meets your emotional needs, even when your wife cannot be trusted to do so.

It will help you in your marriage. It will help you if your marriage ends someday.

It might even give your wife room to change and improve someday... .but chasing after those hopes isn't going to do you any good at all.

[yeeter]

Hi Grey, thank you so much for your post.

It has been some time, I remember your early days (and mine) and from your post count I can see you have been quite prolific!

Glad to hear you have gained clarity, and warm warm wishes for you going forward.

I appreciate your insights and advice, it is heard, and does help.