Groundhog Day - My feelings versus her pathology - Part 250

[RomanticFool]

Here we go again. I'm actually kind of sick of even posting this on here but I have to for everybody's sake.
I had five weeks NC with my exuBPD married lover, when I got the following message:

I think of you every day and I miss you. Please talk to me.

So I replied telling her that I needed to break away. She told me that she needs to speak to me and meet me. Naturally, 2 weeks later, after reinstating her on FB and being tolerant regarding her hot and cold behaviour, there has been no meeting and distancing has begun again. She told me that she keeps doing the push and pull behaviours because she cannot handle thinking about the situation. Once again she told me that she was feeling suicidal and on the verge of a breakdown.

I got a little tougher with her this time and told her that I don't think it is fair that she uses her mental health as a reason to both pull me back in and distance herself from me again. I told her that if she does not speak to me after pulling me back in then I will once again disappear from her life never to return. This was met with the assertion 'I cannot imagine my life without you.' It has also made me feel doubtful about whether any of her suicidal talk has been genuine. I have always resisted this conclusion but it really does feel like I am being played and perhaps always have been. It also feels that she has once again pulled me back in as her birthday is next week and she always needs to hear 'Happy birthday' from me. I told her that her behaviour has affected my own mental health deeply and she actually apologised but it hasn't changed her behaviour.

Now please, I DO NOT want feedback regarding my marriage and my responsibilities. I have had all of the discussions around morality that I need to have at present and around rekindling the r/s with my wife. That is ongoing. I do not want to talk about that at this moment in time because I need to deal with my feelings around my ex to have any chance of moving on. What I really need more than anything is to understand my ex's behaviour because I sometimes feel like the criticism I receive on this forum at times is like somebody gaslighting me. I can look at my own behaviour until I am blue in the face and I am more than willing to keep on doing so, but in this instance I once again broke my NC rule because I believed my ex needed me and again, true to from, she is pulling away immediately. I have got to break this cycle with her. I have told her that I need to break this cycle.

Cutting her off FB is the only thing that seems to work but she will always leave things for about 5 weeks, telling me how brutal I am and then make a play to get reinstated. She knows exactly what to say and it must feel very easy for her to get me back onside. I have actually told her that I am now considering breaking all contact irretrievably, once and for all, which means blocking her on all communication paths. Having been involved in this dance with her for way too long and constantly hoping she will behave 'normally.' I can see how futile this is and how damaging hoping she will be different has become to my life. I need help with my feelings around somebody I love who is destroying me. No amount of reinforcing a moral code is going to drag me out of this mobius strip I find myself in. I need to take bold and decisive action, preferably without hurting a very sick person.

Please avoid any judgementalism regarding my behaviour and my marriage. I have heard it all before and am acting on the previous discussions. I need to specifically concentrate on my ex's behaviour and whether people think the brutal cutting her out of my life is a better solution than allowing her to remain on FB. Is there any way I can neutralise her behaviour without cutting her off completely or is she always going to reel me back in? I am beginning to feel desperate because I don't know what to do for the best. I still care for her and don't really want to hurt her, but I am once again struggling around my own feelings. I did say it was Groundhog Day.

[formflier]

RF,

To understand your feelings is a worthy goal.  To understand how your feelings affect your actions... .your solutions and how that plays into the "role" you play in your relationship, is critical FOR YOU... .if you want to go in a different direction or even if you want to stay put.

There will likely come a time when you will be faced with a decision that "feels" right... .perhaps it "feels" like the only decision you could possibly make... .I would hope you would set aside that feeling and do nothing for a few days.  Reflect, think... and post here.  We can help you sort through the "choice" you will make... perhaps making a choice that "goes against" how you feel.

Can we make a deal? 

Can we leave facebook status alone for a couple weeks? 

Can we leave any sort of blocking or unblocking of other communications channels alone (phones, messaging apps... .any of that)?

Last issue:  When I read your post... .I see words like "brutal" used regarding a decision of in or out of a social medial platform.  Can you consider that for a while?  Where does that word... and words like it come from?  How often do you feel that way?

FF

[once removed]

from 30000 feet up:

you are both struggling with letting go.

she wants you in her life to "some" degree.
you want her in your life to a greater degree, or none at all.

that presents two options as i see it.

1. this could have been an opportunity to gently but firmly close the door with grace. i think that opportunity has passed, and frankly its not the one id go with.

2. what you were doing before the facebook removal is the advice youve been given. to become boring. to detach. not to be passive aggressive, just to let things take a natural course of detachment. its slow, and its harder on you, but it was working.

option 2 has proven hard for you because you want all or nothing. the natural course is that as you create distance, she will naturally take the hint and stop leaning on you. you will go your separate ways. when that process is in effect, you resent her for it. you question her motives.

her motives are really very simple. she wants to hang on to a thread of you because she struggles to let go completely. people actually do this with facebook all the time. that facebook "friendship" allows people to have some connection to that person and their memory, even if they want no more than that; even if there is no interaction. its not malicious.

you are back in a scenario where option 2 is a possibility, but you are giving demands again, which is where you were a while ago, and frankly i think that dooms things, and if anything, allows the cycle to keep repeating as it has. thats "your behavior". its what is driving the cycle.

option 2, if you can commit to it, wont be easy on you. it will break the cycle which in the long run will be easier on both of you, and a year or two from now, youll be stronger, and youll be glad you did it.

you express a preference to just blow things up. but you havent really committed to that, she comes back on your terms and you press for more, and then blow it up again when it doesnt happen. that will just keep happening. it will continue to do more damage to you both.

but the bottom line is you know all of this. its been said before. its only groundhog day if you keep doing what youre doing.

[RomanticFool]

Thanks once removed and FF,

Can we make a deal? 

Can we leave facebook status alone for a couple weeks? 

Can we leave any sort of blocking or unblocking of other communications channels alone (phones, messaging apps... .any of that)?

Last issue:  When I read your post... .I see words like "brutal" used regarding a decision of in or out of a social medial platform.  Can you consider that for a while?  Where does that word... and words like it come from?  How often do you feel that way?

Yes. I don't really want to cut her off anyway. Brutal is how it feels to us both I think. It is also me punishing her for pushing me away. I know I'm doing it but I can't stop myself when I'm hurting. Or at least, I can't stop threatening to do it.

that presents two options as i see it.

1. this could have been an opportunity to gently but firmly close the door with grace. i think that opportunity has passed, and frankly its not the one id go with.

2. what you were doing before the facebook removal is the advice youve been given. to become boring. to detach. not to be passive aggressive, just to let things take a natural course of detachment. its slow, and its harder on you, but it was working.

Somehow letting it fizzle out really kills me. I always think such a powerful love as I have had for her should go out with a bang rather than a whimper. I can see that this strategy is destructive, ridiculous and childish. It is the emotional one but I can't help going to armageddon all the time. Is that ego talking? Is it lack of compassion? I don't know.

I should let her have a piece of me on FB as I really don't want to break contact but somehow I want to punish her for rejecting me again and again. She says she thinks of me every day and then goes ahead and rejects me time and again. I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy.

if you can commit to it, wont be easy on you. it will break the cycle which in the long run will be easier on both of you, and a year or two from now, youll be stronger, and youll be glad you did it.

you express a preference to just blow things up. but you haven't really committed to that, she comes back on your terms and you press for more, and then blow it up again when it doesn't happen. that will just keep happening. it will continue to do more damage to you both.

I think I want to find a way to stop myself blowing it all up. I don't want to hurt her but somehow when she is in contact with me, it stops me from moving on. I need radical acceptance. I don't ever look at her FB page as she rarely shares anyway. However, her profile picture is her covering her face with her right hand and dispaying the ring I bought her some years ago. How is that for a head f*&k?

[once removed]

It is the emotional one but I can't help going to armageddon all the time. Is that ego talking? Is it lack of compassion? I don't know.

if i had to guess (and project, a bit) id say it might be need for immediate gratification.

ive been in this position to lesser degrees. after my ex there was a gal that showered me with attention when my life was otherwise pretty empty. id go crazy when she wasnt talking to me. when it fizzled out i got pushy, looking for scraps.

it may not be exactly the same, but i get that the thought of letting it fizzle really kills you and it seems easier to just cut everything off. its a rock and a hard place, and what i consider the ideal option is not an easy one, which is why i want to double down on a point i made:

I need radical acceptance.

i think you need some faith and some trust. you need to try to see this a few years down the road.

its like when i was desperate to contact my ex. i had good counsel that kept reminding me (over and over and over) that i could do it eventually, if i wanted, but that now was not the time, and that eventually i likely would lose that desire; i did. i kept delaying that need for gratification, it worked, and it made me more resilient today.

acting on impulse is working against you, and sitting with the pain, resisting the urge to act on it, is at least part of your way through. over time it loses effect on you, and lessens. its a natural part of detachment.

if you can do this, i would wager a thousand dollars i dont have that a couple of years from now, not only will you have survived the pain and moved on, you wont even recognize it; but you will, for the rest of your life, be grateful for the path you took. put your faith in that. trust it. commit to it, even when its hardest.

i would post a bit more, too, before acting. the urges and impulses are going to occur, youll make a case for acting like i did, but historically, we help talk you down, and they pass.

[formflier]

How is that for a head f*&k?

Really depends on how YOU decide to take it. 

Several years ago the concept of "not taking things personally"... or "making things about myself that are likely not"... .was a radical concept. 

My life is much calmer when I make my decisions about me and others actions about them.

So... .the ring may or may not be intended for you.  Best for you to assume it is not.

FF

[Skip]

... .

This is still a story about a three-legged stool. Two of the legs are her marriage and the one leg out to you provides her something she is missing in her marriage. That something has become less and less and less with time and may soon not be needed at all. But right now, she needs a little. As we talked before, you lean on that third leg for something missing in your marriage - you lean a lot more than she does. This is the conflict you two have. The "game" as transactional analysts would put it is the you cut off all contact (the last vestige being FB access) to make her react and she reacts by throwing you a breadcrumb which you scamper for. Each of you reacting impulsively. Each of you feeling slighted. It's a very selfish game by and for both of you. There is no win here, RM - that's the real take home. Sure, maybe one of you will give into the other temporarily - it will only be temporary - and this giving/taking imbalance will resurface. No morality here, just a statement of the obvious... .two marriages have to topple for either of you to be on a level playing field and then "maybe" you might connect. Statistically, the odds are not good for all three of these things to happen.

[RomanticFool]

two marriages have to topple for either of you to be on a level playing field and then "maybe" you might connect. Statistically, the odds are not good for all three of these things to happen.

There really is no question of that. Even in the impossible event that we were both to leave our marriages it would be a disaster. I know that. She wouldn't even contemplate it. I could never have a r/s with a woman who has hurt me the way she has and she may well feel the same about me.

Had I been able to stick to the NC and keep away from her, this would already be at an end. That is why I feel so aggrieved because when somebody I have had such a strong love for knows how to keep me attached with such crumbs, then the game becomes torturous and masochistic in the extreme.

I am at the point now where I am annoyed at her selfishness again. I have gone through various stages of rage, indignation, understanding and acceptance. However, I am back at annoyed with her now. At least I know that the situation is way beyond any reasonable chance of having any kind of r/s. She must know that too and yet she won't let me go. You say we are both being selfish, well I am the only one trying my damnedest not to be. I have not defended my behaviour or actions on here at all. Now I am defending myself against a woman who must know she is using me just to make herself feel better with no intention whatsoever of ever giving me anything. The pain in that is wretched for me. This is a woman who has been through the AA programme and works for a suicide prevention charity but she simply has no concern for what she has put me through at all. At least I am trying to break the cycle. She is hanging on and then instantly pulling away again. I feel like screaming at her to leave me alone. It is really very very hurtful.

[RomanticFool]

i think you need some faith and some trust. you need to try to see this a few years down the road.

It once took me ten years to get over an ex girlfriend. Eight years on, I was still driving up the motorway to my new girlfriend having imaginary conversations with my ex partner. The one that got away - or so I thought at the time.

There is something obsessive with me. I attach to people very strongly and really struggle to let go. Always have done. That's why this current situation is so painful. I am older now and can at least function without it debilitating me, but I have no faith whatsoever that she is ever going to let me go. Whatever I do. While she is perfectly prepared to never see me again, that way she doesn't have to deal with her own emotions, she is never going to accept me breaking contact without going kicking and screaming into self pity.

if you can do this, i would wager a thousand dollars i dont have that a couple of years from now, not only will you have survived the pain and moved on, you wont even recognize it; but you will, for the rest of your life, be grateful for the path you took. put your faith in that. trust it. commit to it, even when its hardest.

I hope you are right. I have always been all or nothing with her because she has always behaved this way. It's like somebody telling you they love you and then refusing to see you. The pain is terrible because it doesn't make any sense and is unfair. That is why I am struggling so much to deal with it.

[formflier]

No need to defend yourself... .at least I'm not seeing it.

Much better to "look" at yourself to see the "role" you are playing.  Even if you "feel" or "think" that you are "trying" to do something different.

Also... .trying to "guess" what a potentially disordered person is thinking or intending is wasted effort.  Much better to examine yourself.

Thoughts?

FF

[RomanticFool]

Much better to "look" at yourself to see the "role" you are playing.  Even if you "feel" or "think" that you are "trying" to do something different.

Also... .trying to "guess" what a potentially disordered person is thinking or intending is wasted effort.  Much better to examine yourself.

I am in AA and I spend the majority of my life examining my own behaviour. Most of the time very successfully. My business partner is a difficult person at times, controlling, indiscrete and undermining. I have struggled a great deal over the years to cope with my emotional reaction to some outrageous behaviour. However, I have succeeded and I have been able to maintain a professional r/s, mainly by focussing on my reaction to her behaviour. AA works from the premise that we cannot control other people, only ourselves.

I have tried very hard to do the same with my ex but I have failed. Why? Because there is no rhyme or reason to her behaviour. There is no consistency, logic or fairness to anything she does. You are absolutely right that trying to figure out what a potentially disordered person's thought process or motivations are is fruitless. Yet that very dysfunctional behaviour seems to instill some kind of rescue fantasy in me with the hope that next time it will be different. Perhaps I am simply hoping that I can share her bed one more time, but I think it is something more fundamental in me. Some co-dependent need that, for some reason, I want the very person who is incapable of fulfilling it to do just that. I don't understand it myself really. Other than to term it as love.

[pearlsw]

I need to deal with my feelings around my ex to have any chance of moving on. What I really need more than anything is to understand my ex's behaviour because I sometimes feel like the criticism I receive on this forum at times is like somebody gaslighting me. I can look at my own behaviour until I am blue in the face and I am more than willing to keep on doing so, but in this instance I once again broke my NC rule because I believed my ex needed me and again, true to from, she is pulling away immediately. I have got to break this cycle with her. I have told her that I need to break this cycle.

Having been involved in this dance with her for way too long and constantly hoping she will behave 'normally.' I can see how futile this is and how damaging hoping she will be different has become to my life. I need help with my feelings around somebody I love who is destroying me. No amount of reinforcing a moral code is going to drag me out of this mobius strip I find myself in. I need to take bold and decisive action, preferably without hurting a very sick person.

I need to specifically concentrate on my ex's behaviour and whether people think the brutal cutting her out of my life is a better solution than allowing her to remain on FB. Is there any way I can neutralise her behaviour without cutting her off completely or is she always going to reel me back in? I am beginning to feel desperate because I don't know what to do for the best. I still care for her and don't really want to hurt her, but I am once again struggling around my own feelings. I did say it was Groundhog Day.

Hi RF, As I read all of this I can't help but think you need to go back to square one and look at you. You are grasping because you want to understand her. What if that is impossible to ever know, make sense of, or understand? What if that is unknowable?

If it is knowable and understandable, what then? If you finally "know" this is the BPD push/pull and that it hurts you, what next? (You seem to be struggling to put logic on this)

Keep going back to you. What is best for you? She's weening off the relationship, so are you. Sounds like you see clearly you need to put this behind you - it is damaging you. But it is like an addiction. It's hard, I know. She slipped a little, you did too, but keep going forward. It's just a slip.

She doesn't need you. She doesn't need you to prevent her from harming herself.

The pain you are experiencing comes from your own expectations and hopes and not being able to let them go. It is not her causing you pain. It is you. You say it clearly. "I need to break away." When you are in doubt repeat those words to yourself over and over and over. Stop entertaining the "I can save her" thoughts or the "she can act the way she should" thoughts. Things you might say to yourself: "What do I want? I want to break away. I want to keep breaking away til it's broken. Let go. Let go."

~pearl.

[formflier]

RF,

Much of my advice comes from my own personal experience and "progress" in my relationship.  Things are much more calm.

Once I detached somewhat and took her actions at face value, with a corresponding "healthy" communication response from me, things calmed considerably. 

I also had to accept that "figuring out my wife" was going to be reading tea leaves... .at best.  So... instead of "she's upset because of xyz and if I could "just" do abc next time... .life would be perfect" I now have more of a  "my wife's upset... .hmmm... .well... .I'll wish her well and offer her a hug while I get ready to go the to the park with our kids" or " go to coffee shop and enjoy a book and coffee" or (insert other activity I already had planned)

FF

[RomanticFool]

Thanks Pearl and FF,

A though occurred to me while I was reading your posts. I am suffering so much because my own feelings are not being validated. I want to ask you all a question. Do you not think it is understandable that a woman who has constantly carried out the push/pull cycle with me - which has obviously led me to react in damaging ways - would cause me great pain, given that I believed at one time she was the love of my life?

I know I need to get over her and deal with it and change my behaviour. I understand all of that - but the fact is I feel angry at her for the way she has behaved towards me. At this point in time, I don't care what motivates her really, all I know is that it sucks. Until I can tell myself that I am not going nuts and that it is her behaviour in this r/s that has led to such trauma on both sides, I don't feel I can fully recover from this.

By the way, I am not saying that I get a free pass, I know where my issues lay - but the fact is had she been capable of having a r/s and returning my feelings - we would not be where we are now. That is the issue that I am really struggling with here. I feel in some ways that I have been a victim of her personality disorder. I need to figure out how to come to terms with that knowledge.

[Sunfl0wer]

At this point in time, I don't care what motivates her really, all I know is that it sucks. Until I can tell myself that I am not going nuts and that it is her behaviour in this r/s that has led to such trauma on both sides, I don't feel I can fully recover from this.

By the way, I am not saying that I get a free pass, I know where my issues lay - but the fact is had she been capable of having a r/s and returning my feelings - we would not be where we are now.

Sounds like you are saying you keep getting disappointed by a woman who is “not capable of having a r/s and returning” your feelings?

What do you think about lowering your expectations of this person to meet her where she is at? 

[formflier]

  Do you not think it is understandable that a woman who has constantly carried out the push/pull cycle with me - which has obviously led me to react in damaging ways - would cause me great pain, given that I believed at one time she was the love of my life?
 

100% understandable. 

I would hope you could "step away" to "gain some distance" and reflect on who is responsible for this pain being in your life.

Please focus on the word "responsibility" and stay away from "fault"... "blame"... .etc etc.

FF

[RomanticFool]

Sounds like you are saying you keep getting disappointed by a woman who is “not capable of having a r/s and returning” your feelings?

What do you think about lowering your expectations of this person to meet her where she is at?

I think the problem is that I have lowered my expectations of her to zero. She reels me back in just to instantly reject me again. It's not so much I am disappointed as angry with her. I think I was on the right path in going NC. Every time she pulls me back in and the immediately walks away again. It is like the proverbial water torture. I think now I just want her out of my life so I don't have to deal with it anymore.

[RomanticFool]

100% understandable.  

I would hope you could "step away" to "gain some distance" and reflect on who is responsible for this pain being in your life.

Please focus on the word "responsibility" and stay away from "fault"... "blame"... .etc etc.

I am ultimately responsible for my well being. However, when one gives oneself to another human being - there is responsibility on both sides to be fair minded. In my book at least. She has been persistently unfair and unfathomable. In my younger years I had less tolerance for the suffering she put me through and eventually walked away.

In my opinion, she has taken advantage of the love I have towards her to simply connect herself to me without any sense of responsibility or duty of care. I would never have been so volatile with her had she been fair with me. I reiterate, I am not giving myself a free pass, I have behaved badly - but she has behaved so much worse which has constantly triggered me. I believe that is the truth. I also believe the only real solution is to be final about getting her out of my life.  I am sick and tired of her lack of care, love and consideration towards me.

[RomanticFool]

She doesn't need you. She doesn't need you to prevent her from harming herself.

This is the crux of the matter. She says that she does. All of her words point towards a woman who is at the very least extremely fond of me. The truth of the matter is her behaviour is that of a woman who couldn't care less. If I didn't know about BPD I would think she is little more than a heartless, manipulative liar. In the past I have threatened to pay a visit to her house and have it out with her in front of her husband. Not that I ever would but that is the exasperation point that this affair has brought me to. As I said before, human beings have a duty of care towards one another. She is somebody who not only eschews that idea, but manipulatively will say just enough to keep me hanging on. I characterise my ex as undiagnosed BPD. I do that for my own sanity because if this isn't a personality disorder, then she is simply an awful person. However, it clearly is not as simple as that.

Had she at any point picked up the phone and explained to me that she loved me but couldn't see me, then I would have been understanding and given her respect/credit for being honest. What she has actually done is constant push/pull, triggering my own emotional response. I don't understand how she can work for a suicide prevention charity, have been through the 12 step AA programme and still not give a fig for my feelings. Sure she apologised the other day, but it didn't change her behaviour. I believe the sole reason for her contacting me is so I can wish her a happy birthday for next week.

[RomanticFool]

its like when i was desperate to contact my ex. i had good counsel that kept reminding me (over and over and over) that i could do it eventually, if i wanted, but that now was not the time, and that eventually i likely would lose that desire; i did. i kept delaying that need for gratification, it worked, and it made me more resilient today.

acting on impulse is working against you, and sitting with the pain, resisting the urge to act on it, is at least part of your way through. over time it loses effect on you, and lessens. its a natural part of detachment.

if you can do this, i would wager a thousand dollars i dont have that a couple of years from now, not only will you have survived the pain and moved on, you wont even recognize it; but you will, for the rest of your life, be grateful for the path you took. put your faith in that. trust it. commit to it, even when its hardest.

i would post a bit more, too, before acting. the urges and impulses are going to occur, youll make a case for acting like i did, but historically, we help talk you down, and they pass.

I am going to stick with this now. There will be no further cutting her off FB. I will accept that she is a silent observer of my life. I have no energy to keep making clean breaks and dealing with the grief. I will let sleeping dogs lie until all of the passion and resentment has gone from me and in the meantime try to focus on my own existence with no thought of her.

There will be many times when I feel like telling her to go forth and multiply out of grief, I shall resist.

[Skip]

Good for you!

Do you think you might be a bit distorted about all of this? Clearly there is some depression and with that comes distortion. 72% of the members here have been through depression at some level.

The reason I hung in there so long was that she was essentially my sexual dream woman. She was an ex model (albeit of advanced years) and had work done on her physical appearance which knocked 10 years off her. The attraction unfortunately didn't end at the physical... .

In all your posts, I've never come away thinking that this was a love affair... .two people connecting, caring, nurturing, validating, growing together with family and friends and... .and believing and trusting each other.

You don't believe and trust her. Look at all the accusations you have made against her. She doesn't believe and trust you - she has said that.

It has always come off here that she was a sexual outlet for you (a fantastic, great sexual outlet at that) and the you were a fantasy validation escape for her. In time we all bond through familiarity and chemistry, and there is undoubtably this bond, but this is not love in the more conventional sense and what one sees in a people your age and after 14 years of knowing each other.

You want what you want from the relationship and will push and pull and manipulate and withdraw and be nice and been angry an accusatory in an effort to get more. You treat well and you treat her abusively. I don't say that to hurt - I'm trying to help.

She is highly undependable and insensitive to your needs. You hate it when she withdraws and she withdraws all the time - "too bad for you".

There is no basis to say that she has treated you worse than you have treated her. It's been careless all the way around.

All this is to say, don't lull yourself into thinking this was the love of a lifetime - she's a dishonest, abusive, mentally unstable (addiction, suicidal, depressive)  person - look at what she has done to her husband/family. You can't compartmentalize your relationship with here and expect different.

And don't lull yourself into thinking you were a standup guy. There is nothing to be proud of here. Its been (both ways). We all do things we are ashamed of in life and this is a chapter that you would be best to cleanse yourself from. I think you are doing that here - confessing and  looking to better yourself.

I think you have to face that this was a big long ugly mess of self indulgence and that both of your abused others in the process - you're not the victims.  Two years from now you will look back and think, why did I waste so much of my life on this dead end... .why did I sacrifice so much for it?

I know it, big picture aside, that this feels like any painful break up and that you are hurting. You feel you hurt and you don't deserve to hurt and you don't deserve sympathy and... .messy.

Hang in there. You are making progress. Painful as it is.

[En1gma]

It’s hard but effective to cut all avenues of communication. A silver bullet so to speak, in the long run you’ll feel better.

[Sunfl0wer]

I think the problem is that I have lowered my expectations of her to zero. She reels me back in just to instantly reject me again. It's not so much I am disappointed as angry with her.

I do not understand how the expectation could be zero, yet then the result is anger.  Can you help me understand what you are angry about if you expected nothing?

[RomanticFool]

Do you think you might be a bit distorted about all of this? Clearly there is some depression and with that comes distortion. 72% of the members here have been through depression at some level.

I have certainly suffered from depression. I think my emotions have always been distorted to some degree.

In all your posts, I've never come away thinking that this was a love affair... .two people connecting, caring, nurturing, validating, growing together with family and friends and... .and believing and trusting each other.

You don't believe and trust her. Look at all the accusations you have made against her. She doesn't believe and trust you - she has said that.

It has always come off here that she was a sexual outlet for you (a fantastic, great sexual outlet at that) and the you were a fantasy validation escape for her. In time we all bond through familiarity and chemistry, and there is undoubtably this bond, but this is not love in the more conventional sense and what one sees in a people your age and after 14 years of knowing each other.

Out of the blue she rang me today. I was a little shocked. She told me she was worried about what my reaction to her would be but wanted to talk to me. She said  that her husband watches her like a hawk. That she is becoming frightened of him as he micro-manages her every move. She said that he has been suspicious of her ever since she came back from the cruise. She said she feels as if he doesn't even like her. She misses me. I told her that this year has been traumatic for us both and that I never even found out what happened with her suicide attempt. I also told her that the mistrust I felt went back to her drinking and the behaviour at the time. She said she understood that.  She told me she has some health problems and I wished her well.

So there it is all laid bare. Perhaps the simple truth. Perhaps she has been telling me the truth all along. But you are right, trust has been an issue. I explained to her why I have been difficult in the past.

I think your point about not showing love and affection to each other is precisely because she was married when I met her initially and now I am married. Perhaps had she ever been willing to give it a go with me things could be different. I don't know. However, she said something to me which she has never said before. She said she is thinking about changing her circumstances.

You want what you want from the relationship and will push and pull and manipulate and withdraw and be nice and been angry an accusatory in an effort to get more. You treat well and you treat her abusively. I don't say that to hurt - I'm trying to help.

She is highly undependable and insensitive to your needs. You hate it when she withdraws and she withdraws all the time - "too bad for you".

There is no basis to say that she has treated you worse than you have treated her. It's been careless all the way around.

I agree with everything you say here. The situation is utterly ridiculous. As is the fact I married a woman I hadn't slept with for two years. My life choices stink.

I do think that had she been available and willing to have a r/s we could have become close. The basis for a r/s has always been there ie we were attracted to each other and feel love. That is usually how a real r/s starts. We have never been able to get past first base due to her initial unavailability.

All this is to say, don't lull yourself into thinking this was the love of a lifetime - she's a dishonest, abusive, mentally unstable (addiction, suicidal, depressive)  person - look at what she has done to her husband/family. You can't compartmentalize your relationship with here and expect different.

And don't lull yourself into thinking you were a standup guy. There is nothing to be proud of here. Its been (both ways). We all do things we are ashamed of in life and this is a chapter that you would be best to cleanse yourself from. I think you are doing that here - confessing and  looking to better yourself.

I think you have to face that this was a big long ugly mess of self indulgence and that both of your abused others in the process - you're not the victims.  Two years from now you will look back and think, why did I waste so much of my life on this dead end... .why did I sacrifice so much for it?

I can only speak for myself. I cannot speak for her. I don't think I have ever felt as strongly as this for anybody. However, I am willing to accept that part of that is because I have never been able to really have her. It feels like love.

I don't see myself as a stand up guy. Weirdly after her phone call I feel like my own emotional volatility has blocked me seeing the truth. Perhaps I have always been a fantasy/validation/escape for her or perhaps there is something more which she cannot pursue because she is too scared and too unstable. In any case the call has taken all of the emotion out of things for me. Perhaps, suddenly it all makes sense.

One thing is for certain and I will own this here. We have both behaved abominably to our partners. That I accept. That I feel shame over. I asked her once, when she first met up with me and I was single, if she felt guilty about cheating on her husband. She replied, 'No. He has done it to me.' So they have their own transactional analysis game going on.

You are bang on: it is one big ugly mess. Perhaps for the first time I can really see the emotional morass we are in. Perhaps I can finally see the third leg in the stool. Her husband. In terms of my own guilt around cheating. Perhaps I have been justifying it as my wife wasn't sleeping with me. It's one of those things that if you allow yourself to feel the guilt, shame and remorse, life would become unbearable. I don't really know. I am not an insensitive person generally. I do know I have blocked my own guilt out.

I know it, big picture aside, that this feels like any painful break up and that you are hurting. You feel you hurt and you don't deserve to hurt and you don't deserve sympathy and... .messy.

Hang in there. You are making progress. Painful as it is.

The contradiction of feeling self pity and shame is probably appropriate for the high stakes emotional morass we have engaged in.

I can only look forward now.

[Skip]

She said she is thinking about changing her circumstances.

Sure. She is have a down period with hubby who is wising up to her deceit. So she reaches out to you... .don't scramble for this breadcrumb. This is not love. This is seeking a safety net. That is the role you always played for her.

Perhaps I can finally see the third leg in the stool. Her husband.

You are the third leg, man. If he was the third leg, you'd be living with her, talking to her every day, she'd be confiding in you, you'd be holding her (and she be cheating on you).

[flourdust]

She said  that her husband watches her like a hawk. That she is becoming frightened of him as he micro-manages her every move. She said that he has been suspicious of her ever since she came back from the cruise. She said she feels as if he doesn't even like her. She misses me.

This is textbook drama triangle stuff. Today, she's the victim, her husband is the persecutor, and you're the rescuer. It makes you feel better and helps her to pull you in, but it's just 2 PM on Groundhog Day, and you're still going to wake up tomorrow right back where you started.