Help with a daily conflict

[JoeBPD81]

I've talked about this before, but I wanted some imput about this specific sittuation.

Everyday I get out of work at different times, depending on how much work I have, or how much I can leave for tomorrow. That means I can get home by 3-4PM, by the end of the month, my average hours have to be completed, so if one day I get out late, I add minutes to the months account.

My BPDGf goes out of the house to pick up the kids from school at 4.15 PM.

She gets very anxious if I get home before she goes out. She says she gets distracted and then she forgets things (her glasses, her keys, a snack for the kids, some paper for the school... .). So I make time, and I try to arrive by 4.15, she knows and she is out before that.

Problem solved, right? Not at all. By the end of the month I have too many hours, so I can leave early, and be home at 3. So, I tell her when I can arrive and she leaves home, and wanders the streets in the cold for an hour or more. AND she gets very pissed off, and probably she doesn't talk to me for the rest of the day.

When I ask her about the time that is OK one day, she gets offended and we can't reach an agreement, even when I'm offering that any time is OK for me, that I just need to know.
 She wants me to pick the time (which I'm never sure of, because of the nature of my job), and then she leaves before that. If I get home 5 minutes before time, because I'm not the God of public transportation, and I don't estimate times perfectly, she gets very angry.

Bear in mind that it is my house where we all live. I pay all the rent, and all the house's expenses.

I thought I've come up with a solution. By the end of the month, when I can leave early. I go have lunch on my own, out, and I go after that home. I enjoy that, and I don't incomodate her. Instead of thinking "I''m not wanted at my own house" I can think "I'm treating myself to a meal out". She doesn't eat around people (anorexia), and I eat alone when I eat at home. (It's a late lunch, 4pm, even by my country's standards, but not so rare).

Last month, after anouncing that I had 4 days at the end of the month when I could get home early, she got really mad, and she accused me of being a liar, and always sneaking about my job hours. I found a place where I can eat very cheap, and  I did that, and it was OK.

This morning I texted her: "Please, don't cook lunch. I have too much time, so I'll leave at 14.30 and I'll have lunch before going home.
Tomorrow too. Unless one day it's OK (or needed) for me to arrive at 3PM or so, the last day's of each month I'll do that, if I've acumulated time."

She answered: "Good morning. I don't know what would be appropriate as an answer, so I'd rather not say anything. Have a nice day."

And she's been silent ever since. This is not a bad reaction. But I get anxious everyday  about this, about what time I leave, and how she is going to take it each day. And depending on how she takes it, the rest of the day goes one way or the other. So I feel it is very important.

I get that if she takes as me toeing around her "crazyness", she gets resentful. But I can't behave as if she didn't have a problem. Because then I would get home as early as posible, and it would be a great thing for me, and a disaster for her. So either way, it's always a problem for her.

What do you think?

What would you do?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi JoeBPD81,

I look forward to seeing the range of ideas on this from everyone. To be honest, given what you've laid out, I'd just never go home before that agreed upon time - 4.15 pm. Period. It's consistent, it's easy. You get to have some down time, have a coffee, have a cocktail, have a strawberry shake, have lunch, whatever it takes. I know it is more enjoyable to be able to go home early after a shift at work, but if this is gonna always be an issue and you don't want to constantly juggle it I'd set up a solution that makes you happy.

Would that work? And then you could set this problem aside and focus on other things?

My h and I used to have big issues with grocery shopping. He made it REALLY difficult. It took me about 5 years or so (grrrr!) but I was able to finally get him to agree to a routine with this and we cut out a major source of conflict.

If you can, find a solution that gives both of you some happiness.  

[JoeBPD81]

I forgot to mention. She insist on cooking luch for me, nobody else eats lunch, the kids have it at school. So I have to warn her when I have lunch on my own. Or else, I would do just that, arrive at 16.15, some days with an empty stomach, some days with a full one.

But if I don't touch her luch, she gets mad too. And suspicious. Some days I arrive so tired that I rather take a nap before the kids arive and turn the house into a war zone, than eating. The days she is mad at me, I lose my appetite, so I eat half or none of the lunch. And she takes it as a way of emotional blackmail. When the truth of the matter is that I am overweight, and I don't want to eat without being hungry at all.

[Tattered Heart]

Do you think she is upset about lunch or about you getting home early?

Could you put the choice back on her? Either you come home early to eat lunch or you get home later and get your own lunch?

Don't forget to validate how much you appreciate her cooking lunch for you.

Personally I would not arrange my schedule to stay out of the house and instead try to find ways to help support her during that 30 min to 1 hour so that she doesn't feel so overwhelmed. It's only a few days a month. It might cause some issues to start with, but I bet there is a way to let her know about this without triggering her. On the other hand, I do enjoy a little time running errands without my H. I just wouldn't like feeling forced to do it.

[JoeBPD81]

If I don't eat something for lunch I would eat it for dinner, or next day. I always praise her food and cooking. And I thank her. I also tell her that there is no need, that I can take care of my food, since she hates cooking and the smells of food.

I end up eating a lot more calories than I would on my own, to "validate" her cooking.

[pearlsw]

Hi JoeBPD81, I am so sorry you are having this ongoing issue! It really reminds me so much of an ongoing issue I had with my h and our weekly grocery shopping. I wanted a consistent routine that I could count on and to not have to pull teeth every week to find out when/if we would go buy food. In a country where there are limited shopping hours (unlike in my home country where I could shop 24 hrs/day and had my own car and money and total freedom) it was hard to feel secure and comfortable, and to have to rely on him for such things depending on his moods. If he was depressed, tired, or just inconsiderate, or we weren't getting along, then no food for me! That was a horrible way to exist. I wanted to pull my hair out. I remember feeling like "come on, this is simple, we have to solve this, this can't be an ongoing thing or I will lose my mind at some point"! I literally could not believe we were fighting over food - that is so basic! Argh!

I know you have a hard time, but it sounds like you have talked over this issue at times with her, right? You know what her issues are and you are trying to find solutions. You are left feeling like you are walking on eggshells. I remember feeling totally frustrated and like this SIMPLE (in my mind) problem would never be solved, but it finally was and we have a nice routine now so perhaps there is some hope.

Thinking and dreaming a little big here, what would your ideal solution be, and if you had to say, what do you think her ideal solution would be on this issue? Perhaps if we know what you each would want we can work back from there and find a compromise and then brainstorm a way to talk it over with her?

Either way, you get to feel good okay because you are trying your best and you have good intentions here. You are doing your part to be loving and understanding and can hold your head high okay.   We're here with you and we hope that step by step you can make things more livable and have less stress and worry!

Do any other members have ideas or a similar struggle?

[AskingWhy]

"Forgetting" is almost always a choice.

People say they get distracted and forget, but one must consider if it was a choice on some level.

For instance, one might "forget" an item at the grocery store if it was not anything really needed.

One the other hand, one does not "forget" to pick up one's paycheck at pay time.

pwBPD, in my experience, have real "control" issues and want to control things, even down to the times of eating and doing household chores.

This evening my uBPD H was getting visibly upset that some small trash bins around the house were not emptied for the next day's pickup. The bins only contained a few paper items are were nowhere overflowing.  pwBPD are very odd about structure and rules, IMO.

[pearlsw]

Are there ways to help with some of the forgetting? Placing a basket by the front door where she always deposits her keys for example? A special place to keep her glasses too? Perhaps a checklist on the door to not forget other things? (snacks, paper, etc.) The more fun and pleasant you can make things it might be more appealing and comforting for her and help her with these organization issues and give her less stress.

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks for all the responses, pearlsw, AskingWhy, Tattered Heart

I know the issue is not a big deal at all. The problem is that it sets the tone for the day. It's the trigger that changes her, and also makes me assume a defensive position.

The Ideals:

- For me the ideal situation would be to be welcome with a smile, an "I love you", a hug, a kiss. We could chat a bit, or if I'm very early, wild sex and arriving just in time to the school.

- For her, the ideal would be to live in a cabin in the woods with no human being in 200 miles around.

She forgets things whether I'm there or not, only if I'm there, she can blame me. It has not happen so often that it can be considered a real problem. The trigger is not so much if I arrive and she is still there. The trigger is when I talk to her around mid-morning and I tell her that I won't be late that day.

Oh, Tattered Heart when I have asked her to make the decission, she got much worse "I'm not your mother!... .I'm not gonna make decissions for you... .You can't do this to me... .You are a grown ass man... .You sneaky ass... .".

Before moving in together I was offered a free flat, from my family. The pro was that it was free, and a nice place, the cons, that it had bad memories for me, and it was across town from the kids' school. There were more things, the thing is I couldn't decide. So I told her that we should talk about it, and think together if I took it or not. She almost broke up with me on the spot, we had a fight for weeks. She kept escalating in her personal attacks and we haven't heard from BPD, so I JADEd as crazy. For me wanting to talk that with my GF was the most natural thing to do, and her rage made no sense at all. The flat had room for the 4 of us. Any decission that I don't mind one way or the other, and I ask her input, she goes balistic.

We had a chat yesterday, on the phone, and she told me that I should speak my mind, and that she is going to be mad anyway, and her anger is not going to make sense, and it would go away later. She was talking in general, because I spoke up with a conflict on my office.

Later at home, she was in a good mood, after not talking to me all morning. She talked a lot, and she told me "please, don't be hot". Later we crossed and she told me "you ARE hot" and I kissed her on the cheek, and then I lingered there and we kissed. Nothing steamy, just a quick kiss, but that's rare in our weekdays. It felt great, but it also leaves me like ":)o I live in Wonderland?" I can't predict, or expect, or relax, or trust in signals... .There is no knowing what will happen next.

When we met, she used to find adorable how much I liked food. I studied and worked as a cheff. I like to try food from all around the world... .But now it disgust her, the idea that I went somewhere to enjoy food is disgusting to her. So that also weights in the matter.

After that good night, this is the text exchange this morning:

She: I don't know if you meant yesterday that today you eat out also? Because you said last days of the month and all that and today it's 30th but I honestly don't know
I hope that the morning goes smooth

I: Yes, I'll eat whatever, probably at ... .
I think it's the way to keep a routine to arrive at 16.15 or so everyday

She: And I think it's you being passive aggressive and manipulative. I don't appreciate it at all and it doesn't make me feel guilty, just sad and upset with you, so it doesn't serve its purpose either.

I: I don't want you to feel guilty.
Not sad either, or upset... .I don't want you to leave early and freeze your ass either.
I am OK either way, you have no reason to feel guilty.

She: I don't appreciate it at all. But I am not going to argue with you because I don't know how to do it in a productive way, without being hurtful because I am very upset with you. Don't make that mistake, I never said that you can make me feel guilty, just that I think that is your goal. But my feelings are mine.

I: I get it that is not good for you that I get home when you need to be focused on leaving and the things needed.
I don't like it, but I get it, and I don't want to punish you for it.
We have to talk about this, when you can, because it is something that happens everyday, and we have to find a way that it's not a problem. My goal is that it won't be a problem.

No response after that.

[JoeBPD81]

We reached some agreement!         

She: We are still talking about the same thing without anything different being said. I have to learn to live with you, or anyone else for that matter, and I asked for you to not enable my crazy, I said that when I couldn't take seeing you I would leave early and when I can't leave early for whatever reason I would tell you and I would have to ask of you, since I am the one with the problem, to give me more time or space or whatever. It was pointless, I really must explain myself terribly. Anyway I hope that you have something good for lunch and do enjoy yourself since I am done with this subject, I can't say anything else.

Me: I'm not going to be capable of doing everything you ask. Sometimes your solution won't work for me. And having my own solution is important to me. Enabling you would be to always take your solution. And if I get a treat eating out, instead of eating alone at home, that's taking care of myself. I could do it randomly, or I can do it when it is also convenient.I ask you to be OK with that. For me.

She: I'm OK with that presented that way
I'm not OK with that presented as a favor to me or something for me
If it works for you, great thou

[babyducks]

Hi Joe,

As I try to understand your situation a couple of things come to mind for me.   I have a slightly different perspective, a slightly different take on things.   Let me put it out there and see what you think.

My relationship is over, my partner's decision not mine, so I tend to look at things from a hindsight is 20/20 view point.

My partner did a lot of managing her emotions and managing her dysregulations by managing her distance, both physical and emotional with people.    She had, literally, a hair trigger when it came to dysregulations and spent a great deal of time trying to rigorously control her environment so she 'felt' less out of control.  It was a failing proposition.

At some level she was aware that she reacted beyond what was considered ordinary and went to great lengths to avoid that.    To be fair she would probably articulate it differently.    One time she told me "you've no idea how embarrassing it is to just break out crying in front of people".    

So I am going to suggest that this goes a little deeper, or goes beyond what time you arrive home and what you have for lunch.

in the first part of the text conversation

She: I don't know if you meant yesterday that today you eat out also? Because you said last days of the month and all that and today it's 30th but I honestly don't know
I hope that the morning goes smooth

I: Yes, I'll eat whatever, probably at ... .
I think it's the way to keep a routine to arrive at 16.15 or so everyday

She: And I think it's you being passive aggressive and manipulative. I don't appreciate it at all and it doesn't make me feel guilty, just sad and upset with you, so it doesn't serve its purpose either.

the thought that popped into my head here was this is a form of coercion and control.   This type of coercion is "imposed by someone who lacks empathy, demonstrates an excessive sense of entitlement and engages in interpersonal exploitation to meet their own needs at the expense of the rights of others."   that is  the text book stuff.  Once her need for an on time arrival has been disrupted she is upping the ante, using her maladaptive coping traits to get you to capitulate.   My partner truly believed her feelings and thoughts were caused by something outside herself and worked very hard to change those things so she would feel 'better'.    

You replied with:

I: I don't want you to feel guilty.
Not sad either, or upset... .I don't want you to leave early and freeze your ass either.
I am OK either way, you have no reason to feel guilty.

and I wonder if this feeds the dynamic that you are attempting to avoid.    I would have tried something like:

'when you say it that way it sounds as if you think I did something wrong'.

she can feel what ever she feels.   you are looking for an association between your actions and her reactions but there isn't a logical association.   Not one that is readily apparent at any rate.   a lot of her feelings around this are coming out of her disorder.

I have a mild case of cPTSD and some times seeing a VW Bug can trigger in me a panic.   Yeah seriously.   How weird is that.   In my head there is an association between the VW Bugs and injury.   There is absolutely no connection in reality.   My brain, my over active stress center, hung fear on top of a VW Bug, primarily because there was no other place to put it.   Does that make sense?

She: I don't appreciate it at all. But I am not going to argue with you because I don't know how to do it in a productive way, without being hurtful because I am very upset with you. Don't make that mistake, I never said that you can make me feel guilty, just that I think that is your goal. But my feelings are mine.

I see this as her being as honest as she can be while still defending her primal fears.    At some level she is right.   She doesn't know how to argue in a productive way.   and I think her sense of productive is closer too, let me get what I want and not have to deal with harmfully intense emotions.    My partner told me a lot "my feelings are mine"   and "you never understand the way I feel.".    She was very protective of her emotions.    And defensive of her ability to share them.   my operating baseline for emotions is about 20 dB,  meaning my emotional level is normally pretty quiescent,    my partners operating baseline for emotions was about 70 dB meaning normally reactive.    When she said something like " I don't know how to do it in a productive way, without being hurtful because I am very upset with you."   I thought the level of upset had something to do with me.   Didn't.    It was the way she experiences life.   all life.

I: I get it that is not good for you that I get home when you need to be focused on leaving and the things needed.
I don't like it, but I get it, and I don't want to punish you for it.
We have to talk about this, when you can, because it is something that happens everyday, and we have to find a way that it's not a problem. My goal is that it won't be a problem.

I would have gone in a slightly different direction here,   validate the positive,  validate the valid.  

I would have said 'yeah I think you are right we need to talk about this in a productive way because it happens every day and we should find a way so this isn't a problem for either of us.   I am glad you value the relationship so much you don't want to be hurtful.

this is the most interesting part of the conversation to me:

She: We are still talking about the same thing without anything different being said. I have to learn to live with you, or anyone else for that matter, and I asked for you to not enable my crazy, I said that when I couldn't take seeing you I would leave early and when I can't leave early for whatever reason I would tell you and I would have to ask of you, since I am the one with the problem, to give me more time or space or whatever. It was pointless, I really must explain myself terribly. Anyway I hope that you have something good for lunch and do enjoy yourself since I am done with this subject, I can't say anything else.

this would have been my reply
'lots of time explaining thoughts and ideas is hard to do.   I struggle with it too.   I agree lets put this away for a while.   I am hopeful that we will eventually figure this out.'

my two cents
'ducks

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks a lot babyducks

Your kind post made me think. Luckily we have put this issue to rest. But I'm learning to settle other conflicts.

She was affectionate again in the evening. 2 days in a row !  

[pearlsw]

Hi Joe,

Glad to hear you are feeling better and getting some affection!    

I would want to add in though that in a way this is a big deal! It is a good example of typical things happening for you and your partner, and through taking a careful look at it you may be able to get to a deeper place of understanding the dynamic and find new ways to address it, ways that could help to cut down on conflicts - or at least make you feel a bit better.

Hi babyducks! Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts with all of us. Your ability to read this stuff and pull out such fine detail and insights never ceases to amaze me. I wish I could borrow your brain!

In his posts I notice Joe struggles a lot and despite his best intentions gets a bit stuck here and there - we all do! In your read, or anyone's, would continuing to work on validation play a role here? Being able to really hear the emotions she is expressing and responding to the emotions in a way that lets her have her emotions, but also does not lead to such big problems (hopefully)?

What do you think Joe? Is validation something you feel you need to keep working on, really hearing her emotions and coming up with responses that don't accidentally invalidate? I have noticed lately I am a much bigger invalidator than I thought! It has been eye-opening for me! I tend to think, well I'm nice and I mean well, but I notice certain things I say at times can sweep my partner's feelings under the rug - push him to not feel things that he does feel - and that is a big mistake I am making.

[babyducks]

I don't think validation is a one size fits all tool.    I think there is a lot of nuance to validation that can't be easily captured.   in my experience, some of my most finely crafted virtuoso displays of validation fell flat, maybe because of tone of voice,   maybe because of facial expression,  maybe because I don't really believe what I was peddling.     Other times some of the most half $$ attempts at validation snatched literally out of the air worked because, well basically because I truly meant them.

my experience with validation was it worked best for me and my partner before a dysregulation set it.  it was easier for me. because I wasn't trying to come up with something during an emotionally tough moment,    it was easier for my partner because she despised being placated.    at some level she knew that she was unregulated and hated being 'played' or talked down too.  It was never a good dynamic when I attempted to soothe her emotions.

I get that because I have higher than average validation needs myself.    I like to be validated the most when things are going well,  when things are quiet and calm.   when I am sitting in front of the TV and my partner says 'hey I meant to tell you the other day,... .I really appreciated you brushing the snow off my car, that was very nice of you."    I feel 10 feet tall then.     

when things are starting to dysregulate we had better luck with things like "I get that this is very important but right now I am pretty confused,   overwhelmed, baffled,  I really want to think about this more."

the other part of validation is... .I had to be even handed about it.    I had to validate myself too.    if the conversation was unbalanced,... .it never worked for us.       self validation was a thing I needed to learn.  I used we a lot,... .this is important to us,... .this is what I think,... .what do you think?   

in her last message to Joe,  I read it as her giving up, not reaching an agreement.   I see the message as being more honest but still not a negotiated settlement between equals.   I think she flipped the coin to the other side,  from my needs are more important (maybe persecutor on the drama triangle) to victim on the drama triangle "I can't say anything else"

my two cents
'ducks

[JoeBPD81]

Hey guys,

It's true, I can't rely much on validation, she knows all about it, and she can call me on "shrink crap" if I'm not careful. Before knowing about the concept, I always looked for something I could agree on, sincerely, and tried to be empathic. So, on the one hand, it wasn't so hard to understand the concept. On the other hand I had been doing it "my way" for long, so it is hard to change that and do it "right".

Knowing your partner is as important as knowing the tools, I think. I know in that text it doesn't seem a great deal, but knowing her, I knew I had reached her, and the conversation was good after that. Things have been better since. We've had a good weekend.

Agreement or giving up, I have a ton of anxiety lifted from my shoulders. And that's positive, for me.

I need some days of taking things easy and not think much. Thanks a lot for your thoughts.

[Lakebreeze]

Hi Joe!
I'm so glad you reached a solution. And the Beautiful part is that is is flexible.
I realize that I'm late to the discussion but thought I'd add my own experience with a similar situation. I'm a stay-at-home mom and my husband (uBPD) works nights. So he is getting ready for work at dinner time. It is and was exactly the same situation that you described getting ready to leave the house. Misplaced keys, can't find this or that, very frantic and blaming anyone available to blame (me and our young daughters). I tried everything to tip toe around this uncomfortable time of day ( he only works 3 days a week so it's not every day thankfully). I tried taking the kids out of the house and getting home after he left. He blamed me for keeping the kids away from him. I tried waiting till after he left to start dinner and he complained that I was robbing him of family time. I tried always having dinner ready an hour before he had to leave and he said eating with the family was a night mare and he hated it. I could not win. I asked him what would be best for him and he said he didn't know and didn't care and the discussion got off track from there... .if he did t have to work and I wasn't so lazy etc ect. Anyway... .
Now I just do what works best for me and the kids. I remind myself that his getting ready for work time is going to mean blame for any thing that might be a problem for him and lots of projection. Friday and Saturday we have leftovers which he dosent like anyway and we eat after he leaves. Sunday we either eat a family dinner that I have ready or I text him and let him know we are eating Sunday dinner with the Grandparents. I had to stop caring so much that getting ready for work stresses him out. He is disorganized and I can't fix that. I do try to have something for the kids to do just to keep them from being blamed by him, even if it's just watching TV.
So his behavior hasn't really changed much. I just got off the hamster wheel.
One other thing. I like coffee. And he makes coffee for me a lot. He might just make a cup and surprise me or asked if I'd like some and even if I would say no thanks he would make or buy me a cup any way. You know how you said eating to validate her cooking? Yep, I was doing that with the coffee because he would get upset if I didn't drink it. But it was getting silly. I want A CUp of coffee not 20. So i stared not drinking it. It was a huge hurt feelings problem, probably for the first week or 2. I still get the occasional un requested cup, or no thanks but poured anyway cup. But now I choose if I want to drink it
 Some days it's still a problem. But at least I feel in control of my own caffeine intake!
Sorry for rambling on here, I hope your solutions bring peace in your relationship! Good luck
 

[See Rainbows]

Hi Joe,

This sounds like a lot of OCD to me which can co-occur with BPD. Has she received treatment for OCD? There are certain techniques that she can use to help cope with it.

My pwBPD has seen an OCD specialist in the past and it really helped him. Understanding that an undesirable situation may happen and that it will probably be okay anyway. 

[JoeBPD81]

Thanks Lakebreeze and  See Rainbows for your input.

She adknoledges some OCD behaviours. A couple of days ago, she cried because she couldn't stand that her sheet had some wrinkles, so she brought out the iron at night and ironed the sheet, while crying because she was ashamed of "how bonkers that was".

Rutine and repetition is soothing to her. She needs to make the coffee herself, and following a fixed ritual... .If something seems wrong, she dumps it and she starts again... .And many other things.

The poor thing has had a very traumatic life, so environmentally she could develop anything. But she also suspects many biological difficulties. She scores very high on autistic/Asperger's tests, she thinks she is bipolar, ADHD and other things, she is certainly anorexic beyond any reason. Her OCD is not very troublesome (outside food). Her ex-h was very OC, and she developed some rutines in order not to be punished for not doing things his way. For instance, if something is not clean, she panics because she thinks someone is coming to punish her if he sees it. Then she relaxes when she remembers I don't care at all, and if I cared, I wouldn't punish her. But the first impulse is there.

I'm not supposed to enable invalid behavior, but leaving work is a weak moment for me, I finish very tired, after dealing with people, laws and math in a very stressing pace, leaves me wanting to crawl into a ball and go to sleep on the floor by my work chair. So, put on the figurative boxing gloves just then, is a nightmare. So this makes me look at life with a better mood.