An email from her L today...

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Thought I’d share an email from my ex’s L today. The only thing I changed are the names. It was actually sent by the paralegal that works for my ex’s L. Extension #3

Dear 40day’s Lawyer:
 
Please be advised that we have been trying to get the discovery responses from our client, Mrs. uBPD.  We have been told several times that we would have them and still have not received them.  Mrs. uBPD’s Lawyer is extremely apologetic that we have not been able to meet the extension deadlines which you willingly agreed to.  Mrs. uBPD’s Lawyer has stressed several times to our client that we need to get these responses to you.  We are still hoping to receive the answers so we can provide them to you by tomorrow's deadline, but is there any chance you could give us until next Thursday as a last extension.  Mrs. uBPD’s Lawyer fully understands that it is within your right to file a motion to compel with regard to this matter. We are still hoping to get a counter proposal to you as soon as possible in the hopes we can resolve this matter by agreement.

[40days_in_desert]

Thought I’d share an email from my ex’s L today. The only thing I changed are the names. It was actually sent by the paralegal that works for my ex’s L. Extension #3

Dear 40day’s Lawyer:
 
Please be advised that we have been trying to get the discovery responses from our client, Mrs. uBPD.  We have been told several times that we would have them and still have not received them.  Mrs. uBPD’s Lawyer is extremely apologetic that we have not been able to meet the extension deadlines which you willingly agreed to.  Mrs. uBPD’s Lawyer has stressed several times to our client that we need to get these responses to you.  We are still hoping to receive the answers so we can provide them to you by tomorrow's deadline, but is there any chance you could give us until next Thursday as a last extension.  Mrs. uBPD’s Lawyer fully understands that it is within your right to file a motion to compel with regard to this matter. We are still hoping to get a counter proposal to you as soon as possible in the hopes we can resolve this matter by agreement.

[Panda39]

Wow I'm always amazed at all the similarities we all share.  The attorney's interactions with your ex sound a lot like the interactions and promises made by my SO's ex to her landlord when she was about to be evicted... .promises, excuses, and feet dragging.

How do you plan to respond?  Extension #3... .strikes you're out, if it was me.

Panda39

[Nope]

Is this the first time she's dragged things out? If the answer is yes, then I'd give the extension because it's important in court to seem reasonable at every phase (even if the other side won't do the same). If you can point to other instances where she's dragged her feat and held things up then I'd say she has lost the benefit of extra time and I'd move ahead with the motion to compel.

[40days_in_desert]

Panda39 and Nope... .thanks for the input and yes, the similarities are amazing. My L is one of the best divorce and family law lawyers in the state and understands high conflict personalities and disorders. She explains everything to me before she makes a move, is very proactive and so far has made the right moves. I know for a fact that she has called three other lawyers in the last two weeks. I’m assuming that she isn’t happy with her lawyer and you can tell from the email that her lawyer isn’t happy with her.
Just in case I didn’t explain it right... .the email is from her(ex) lawyer to my lawyer.

[polaris9]

My stbxw who is uBPD is exactly like this as well. Last year she was arrested for DV against me. Her first two lawyers fired her as a client as she refused to return calls, emails, etc. Her brother was helping her out as he bailed her out and was her surety and she stopped communicating with him as well. She had to retain a lawyer on another matter and the same thing happened.

IMHO this pattern of behaviour will persist you have to force her hand. 

This is something that I have to look forward to as we are at the very beginning of engaging lawyers, exchanging financials, etc.

[formflier]

Please update us on what your L advises.  Since it appears that other extensions have been filed/granted... I would tend to think they would deny and move to compel.

Not in a nasty way, but basically saying that extensions have been granted and I have to protect best interests of my client.  My client needs discovery in order to move forward to resolve this difficult area of my life.

Plus... long term, your L likely knows the other L is done, and when your stbx gets a new L... .she will get some extra time there... .

It's frustrating to watch someone intentionally drag their feet.

What is it you guys are trying to discover?

FF

[40days_in_desert]

formflier, this is all in reference to the initial interrogatories and request to produce documentation. In my L's own words in a letter to her attorney, "First of all, I found your client's responses to be extremely confusing." Out of 50 numbered questions/requests, there were issues with 15 where she didn't answer or answered with explanations that had nothing to do with the question or request.

[formflier]

Can you share one of her answers that had nothing to do with the question?  I find it fascinating how confidently they can tell "their" story (whatever is on their mind) and ignore what they are being asked.

I used to get wrapped up in this kind of thing in my r/s and try to "make" my wife "make sense".  Didn't work so well.  However, in your case, it will be interesting to see what she does when really "made" to answer the actual question answered or potentially have consequences for not doing it.

Example we can all believe

FF:  Wow... .doesn't it look pretty the way the sun is shining through the clouds

FFw:  I think the full moon is the best...

FF:  Neat... .what are your thoughts on the way the sun is shining

FFw:  I've already answered that... .

Well... there is a "kernel" of truth in there... .she shared her thoughts on a celestial body... .

FF

[flourdust]

I've had similar issues with my ex, although her attorney is an enabler, whereas your ex's attorney sounds like they want to move the process along. I suspect my ex goes into victim mode, so when asked to produce documents or to correct errors or confusing information, she defaults to saying that she is helpless to do what's been asked of her.

At extension #3, you've given her enough rope, and you've also presented a pattern to the court that shows you are reasonable. File the motion to compel. My own attorney has been saying for months that, although we've asked for promised documentation multiple times, he doesn't expect to get it until we ask for a court date and file to compel discovery.

[formflier]

whereas your ex's attorney sounds like they want to move the process along. 

Which is why your stbx is calling and looking for other attorneys.  I would guess she sees "moving along" and potentially removing a "tool" that she can use to "prove" or "do" certain things to you (at least in her mind).

FF

[40days_in_desert]

I'll send an example or two... .my attorney is going to file a motion to compel if this deadline isn't met. She explained to me we are showing that we are accommodating ex's "extenuating circumstances" but that this is the last one.

I know that courts are not all the same but does anyone have experience with having to file a motion to compel and what happens after that?

[formflier]

 
It is likely that the judge will basically say... ."I meant what I said... .give it up "or else"."

The "or else" may be specifically laid out... or not.

There will usually be a timeframe in there as well.

Then... .if there is compliance, the compliance is "proved" and it's over.

If there is not compliance, the "or else" usually sorta happens and a consequence usually stays in place until compliance actually happens.

Sometimes the other side can "prove" they can't comply.

"motion to compel" sounds cool... .but likely will be more procedural.  It is important to do.  If she gets 1 or 2 and then is a good citizen, likely nothing will come of it.  If a pattern shows up of not listening to the judge... .that's good for you and bad for her.

Most of the time, judges are not as harsh as "we" would want them to be, unless/until a pattern is "proven".

FF

[40days_in_desert]

Here is one example:

Interrogatory #17
If you believe you are the more appropriate primary physical custodian for the minor children, state in detail what you allege to be the reasons which bring you to that conclusion (including specific facts, actions, dates of occurrences, all persons involved witnessing such event).

Her answer: For the obvious reason of being the children's mother and being with them at home everyday, available after school and therof, it would be detriment to their mental and physical well being to have that changed at this time. They are secure in their home with me and believe they desire to have that consistency and stability. A father's love cannot be replaced and 40days's love for his children is true and commendable, however, the home should reside with the mother until they are of age to decide for themselves.

Only my name has been changed. Everything else is word for word.

[Panda39]

Here is one example:

Interrogatory #17
If you believe you are the more appropriate primary physical custodian for the minor children, state in detail what you allege to be the reasons which bring you to that conclusion (including specific facts, actions, dates of occurrences, all persons involved witnessing such event).

Her answer: For the obvious reason of being the children's mother and being with them at home everyday, available after school and therof, it would be detriment to their mental and physical well being to have that changed at this time. They are secure in their home with me and believe they desire to have that consistency and stability. A father's love cannot be replaced and 40days's love for his children is true and commendable, however, the home should reside with the mother until they are of age to decide for themselves.

Only my name has been changed. Everything else is word for word.

It could be that in her mind Feelings = Facts... .she expressed her Feelings in response to Factual Questions, because for her they are the same thing perhaps.

Panda39

[formflier]

It could be that in her mind Feelings = Facts... .she expressed her Feelings in response to Factual Questions, because for her they are the same thing perhaps.

Panda39

Exactly!  Plus... .we know that an increase in "pressure" on a pwBPD will tend to increase feelings equal facts.  Court things add pressure... .so it is no surprise that her answers are... ."interesting".

I wonder if you should "accept" these and proceed.  We've all had our moments.  You submits facts to the court... .she submits feelings, I think you come out ahead.

Is that crazy... .or crazy like a fox.

Said another way, is it a good thing for you to pick and choose the ones she has to "redo"... .it's at least worth discussing with your L.

Thanks for sharing.


FF

[40days_in_desert]

I thought about accepting those answers but would that be saying that I agree? In a way, I look at as caretaking for her again if she wasn’t made to answer correctly. I always made it easier for her. Even for maybe a year after the separation. I’m thinking her lawyer must agree with my lawyer because he didn’t argue one point that my lawyer made regarding her answers.
I can’t wait to see what her explanations are. She didn’t reference anything negative about my parenting skills in any of her answers except for my oldest D16 who chose to live with me. Ex’s stance is that our four youngest should live with her because children should live with their mother. For “obvious” reasons.

With my D16, ex cited that she shouldn’t be left home by herself after 10pm. Said D16 shouldn’t have to put herself to bed. I travel for work and am out of town maybe 7 nights a month. D16 stays with her mom when I’m out of town. On two occasions in the past two years, I got home from a business trip late (11:30pm and 12:15am). Other than that, it’s normally 6-8pm. D16 is home alone after school on the days that I’m coming back in town. When I’m out of town, ex picks D16 up from my house after school. The last 2 times, ex picked D16 up at 10:50pm and 11:30pm. It’s usually around 8-9pm. Ex lives 5 min away and doesn’t have a job. D16 gets home at 2:30pm from school. Ex doesn’t see what message that sends to D16.

Thanks for the feedback and advice! I’ll update on this. My L received an email from ex’s L a little bit ago saying that they might have some of the answers Monday and “hopefully” the rest on Thursday.

[polaris9]

Can you share one of her answers that had nothing to do with the question?  I find it fascinating how confidently they can tell "their" story (whatever is on their mind) and ignore what they are being asked.

Isn't it amazing how consistent this is across many of us?  I would swear that some of these posts are about my stbxw - she behaves in EXACTLY this manner.  I will ask her a yes or no question and she will start complaining about how she wanted another child but I kept stalling, yada, yada, yada.

[formflier]

I thought about accepting those answers but would that be saying that I agree? 

I would ask your lawyer about this... .but... .I'm saying no.

You have your answers/testimony and she has her answers/testimony.  We know in court cases that it will be different, that's why a judge decides.

I think the more BPDish stuff you can get "on the record" (written and oral) the better.

That being said, ask detailed questions about this to your L.  Perhaps show him these posts or questions. 

Said another way, it appears to me you are trying to make sure your wife submits rational answers to the court... .this helps you how?

If your wife submitted a bunch of blather... .this would help you how?

hmmm?

FF

[40days_in_desert]

formflier, I don't think she will ever submit rational answers. Not rational to most people but I will ask my L about it Monday. The validating part is that all of this is what I told my L would happen. Of course most of us have this psychic ability with our exes.

[ForeverDad]

During my divorce neither side asked for interrogatories.  But when I later filed for custody and majority time (Shared Parenting failing as custody evaluator speculated) her lawyer sent a standard divorce packet, so much didn't apply.  Still, I copied the records, some 600 pages.  My lawyer couldn't get her lawyer to respond so he got even more upset than when he had first received the subpoena.  He wrote up his own subpoena for interrogatories and mailed it off, along with my 600 pages.  Predictably we got absolutely nothing back.  She faced no consequences, partly because the case didn't go well for her and we didn't pursue it.

If I would have known in advance she would totally ignore our reciprocal subpoena for data then I would have told my lawyer, "Here is the data for you to review.  But don't send it.  Tell ex's lawyer that you have my response and will EXCHANGE them, ours for hers."

So my advice is to never send off your response while waiting for the ex to respond.  Your compliance can be delayed as Leverage to get ex to respond.

[40days_in_desert]

ForeverDad - In my state, you have 21 days to respond. I was raised by a United States Marine who was also raised by a United States Marine so procedure and fulfilling commitments was programmed in my brain. Knowing what I know now, your concept is probably the way to go.

[ForeverDad]

And what happens if you don't meet the 21 day deadline because you wait to exchange?  My papers too listed all the horrendous things the court could do to me if I failed to comply.  I've been here for years and I don't ever recall a member being fined or jailed as the boilerplate claims.  It is relatively toothless in practice.  And if both sides have made interrogatory requests, then I believe "We're ready and just waiting on you to trade responses" sounds pretty defensible if it becomes an issue debated in court if you can demonstrate concerns of the other side's noncompliance.

You're right, we here are so very compliant to court processes that we can't imagine not complying.  But we're dealing with pwBPD (or some other acting-out PD) who are used to ignoring the rules and getting away with it.  And divorce court lets spouses get away with a lot of conflict and obstruction on the expectation that once the divorce is over the ex-spouses will calm down and move on.  Yeah, I know.

[40days_in_desert]

***Update - ex submitted "corrected" interrogatories. The missing items from the request to produce documents are yet to come.

Here is my ex's "corrected" version of interrogatory #17. You can see her original response in this thread.

Interrogatory #17
If you believe you are the more appropriate primary physical custodian for the minor children, state in detail what you allege to be the reasons which bring you to that conclusion (including specific facts, actions, dates of occurrences, all persons involved witnessing each such event).

I do believe I am the more appropriate primary physical custodian for the minor children for the following reasons:
a) Since birth of all five children, I have been the sole caregiver, nurturer, and caretaker and successfully homeschooling for four years. Due to 40days profession, he was and is out of town consistently. 40days would be out of town two consecutive week in one month period with sporadic one and two nights out of town in between. This allows for the making of an incredible and strong bond between my children and I.
B) During this time and present, I remain completely available to them for their needs through providing a safe place for them to turn to, nourish their spirits allowing their spirits to thrive, having a person to trust who knows their worth, giving confidence and feeling wanted all complete and unconditional love.
c) I provide a safe and comfortable love that allows them to depend on me without fear, creating a sense of belonging and self confidence.
d) The children have a consistent routine for mornings, after school and bedtime creating security in knowing what's expected of them to encourage responsibilities appropriate for their ages.
e) I have not been employed for the past fifteen years for continuous provision of consistency, security, and safety due to being their main parental figure throughout and for the best interests of the children.
f) The children and I play, learn, imagine, and love each other unconditionally.
g) Because of being their main parental figure, I know each child's needs specifically to them. I know their likes and dislikes, how they like their hotdogs cut, what each want when tucked into bed, and all of those things that say, I know you, I see you, and I love you.
h) Not to discredit the role of a father in a child's life, which is extremely important, statistics show that the mothers do the majority of parenting their children and tend to have longer and more endearing and lasting relationships with them. I believe this to be true in our lives.

** There are no specific dates due to this being a consistent way of life for us. All of my immediate and extended family and close friends can attest to my love and dedication as mother to my children.

[livednlearned]

It seems like your counter-move is to provide the "facts, actions, dates of occurrences, and all persons involved witnessing each event" that you list. Go for broke.

I didn't do a written interrogatory in my case, but we did have to do a deposition (a form of interrogatory). Some of this stuff is theater, with both L's sizing up how the clients behave, how they respond. Her L may realize this can't go to court, not with someone who cannot produce evidence.

Unless you cannot produce evidence, too. In which case it's a draw.

The Ls are trying to tell a story, and evidence or documentation will go a lot further in court in helping them tell the better story.

If you come through with evidence documenting when you routinely engage with the kids, with names of witnesses (like school personnel, neighbors, third-party professionals like doctors and dentists) who can attest to your involvement with the kids, that tips things in your favor. If there is a documented history of instability, and you were put in a position of protecting or nurturing the kids, that would go here too.

In preparation for my deposition, I gave my L a jumbo sized 3-ring binder of emails with labels categorizing different concerns I had. When we met with my ex and his L in the room for the deposition, my L brought the binder in and set it on the table. She wanted ex's L to see the size of it. I also quantified the number of emails I had received (excessive, over 10K) and had pored over a calendar the night before, so could recall dates more easily and had the timeline straight in my mind.

It might seem excessive, but my ex was a former trial attorney.

You can use her tiny list of nothing and use it to your advantage. It does take time and a whole boatload of effort.

Also, people with BPD stonewall and obstruct every step of the way. If you want this to move quickly, it might be better for everyone if you stick to the deadlines like they mean something. Court can already move at a glacial pace even without the high-conflict shenanigans.

[40days_in_desert]

Thank you for the advice livednlearned. I have every text message between us for the past two and a half years. Most of which are saved in several pdf files from an app called PhoneView. I also have every email from and to her. She didn't like the phone much. I also have journals. I slacked off for a time but have plenty to show a pattern. My lawyer has the text messages and emails. I've gone through most of them already and categorized them. I've got some more work to do though.

Information like her not taking our kids to the dentist after two years so I went ahead made appointments for them about six months ago. After the first two (we have 5 children), she wanted to take the other three. Surprise! She missed three appointments. Two with one of our children. Since I set everyone up, I got the text communications from the dentist saying the appointment was missed. Then her texting me back telling her she missed the appointment saying she was at the pool.

That's just one of many. Thanks again!

[livednlearned]

Phoneview is a great app! I used it too.

And great that you have journals and whatnot. About the appointments -- couldn't that go either way, in the sense that neither of you took the kids to the dentist for two years?

I understand the unfairness of these situations, so this isn't about shining light on you. Only to say that in court, it's a fine line between shining light on the behaviors that matter versus sour grapes. My ex was a flaming alcoholic, but a judge could also ask why, if it was so bad, did I keep the minor child in that environment.

One way to approach this is to say that, of the X number of times the kids went to the dentist, it was you taking them X percent of the time (if it's in your favor). Or, quantify the number of times you have had to take time off work to get them to the dentist/doctor.

It's unfortunate, but we do have to think about how to spin the evidence so that we don't inadvertently make it look like we're equally at fault or blaming the other parent for things we had some control over.

[40days_in_desert]

This is why I love and need this board! Thank you lnl!

[ForeverDad]

As parent, you can ask the dentist, pediatrician, school and other likely places for copies of their records, signed forms, etc.  Any reference therein to who brought them to sessions or registrations?  Who signed the forms?  That may give you an idea whether their independent records lend support to your involvement with parenting.