Will I be able to trust again?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hey araneina, Here's a quotation that I recently came across that seems on point:

"he who cannot reveal himself cannot love, and he who cannot love is the most unhappy man of all."

-- Soren Kierkegaard

[Lucky Jim]

Hey araneina, Here's a quotation that I recently came across that seems on point:

"he who cannot reveal himself cannot love, and he who cannot love is the most unhappy man of all."

-- Soren Kierkegaard

[araneina]

Hey araneina, Here's a quotation that I recently came across that seems on point:

"he who cannot reveal himself cannot love, and he who cannot love is the most unhappy man of all."

-- Soren Kierkegaard

And I should have believed him when he point blank told me he didn't think he was capable of giving or receiving love. 

But I think I know what you're trying to say.  It is a good thing that I allowed myself to love this man.  And I am trying my best to realize that I will have to take that risk again if I ever want to be loved in return.

[Lucky Jim]

And I should have believed him when he point blank told me he didn't think he was capable of giving or receiving love. 

I think that's a telling statement, particularly in light of the Kierkegaard quote.  Like your Ex, my former SO was unable to let her feelings towards me flow; instead, she kept her guard up, due to past trauma.  At the end of the day, she had what I would describe as an emotional block that prevented her from allowing herself to love, much as you describe with your Ex.

I wouldn't say that you "should" have believed him, but I would suggest that, in the future, that type of statement could play a role in determining how much you are willing to trust someone.  I have to remind myself of the same thing going forward with future relationships, so for both of us it's a work-in-progress!

LJ

[araneina]

I think that's a telling statement, particularly in light of the Kierkegaard quote.  Like your Ex, my former SO was unable to let her feelings towards me flow; instead, she kept her guard up, due to past trauma.  At the end of the day, she had what I would describe as an emotional block that prevented her from allowing herself to love, much as you describe with your Ex.

I wouldn't say that you "should" have believed him, but I would suggest that, in the future, that type of statement could play a role in determining how much you are willing to trust someone.  I have to remind myself of the same thing going forward with future relationships, so for both of us it's a work-in-progress!

LJ

My ex had a terrible, invalidating childhood. He had an ex of 3 years that he said he loved, even wanted to marry, but he admitted it was a rocky relationship and it fell apart.

I believe he is still in love with her. He was so bitter about marriage (she got married while we dated) and I often wonder if he was bothered by her getting married while he was still struggling to move on.  How can you ever open your heart up to another person when someone else already occupies it?

Sigh. It's a learning process, yes.  We'll get there.

[Harley Quinn]

Sigh. It's a learning process, yes.   We'll get there.

We certainly will.  I think that the big lesson I've been ignoring throughout my r/s history is that although I am quite 'all or nothing' - yes black and white if you will - about opening up and allowing myself to be vulnerable, the learning I needed was around WHO to open up to entirely.  Getting that part right means taking time to gradually assess the dynamic and get to know a person better before making that decision. 

Being cautious about my own vulnerability stems back unsurprisingly to my FOO.  There came a point in my childhood where I shut down and built high walls around myself so that I could not be hurt by leaving myself open for someone to withdraw what I felt I needed.  I became independent at a young age and did everything for myself.  As I grew up it was always my conscious intention to be self sufficient and never rely on anyone for anything.  So it is difficult for me to take that leap, however leapt I have, just with the wrong people.  Without putting enough time and thought in first.  All the signs were there - I just ignored them because I was already invested. 

It's clear that to change the patterns in my life I must do something differently.  Working on the codependency, respecting my own boundaries and spotting the early hooks when they are presented are going to be my continued focus, so that I can be clear about when someone is deserving of my trust. 

Thanks everyone for your great replies.  I'll be back with responses soon to those questions I haven't yet covered.  Lots of food for thought here.  I'm glad this thread resonates with others.

Love and light x     

 

[araneina]

We certainly will.  I think that the big lesson I've been ignoring throughout my r/s history is that although I am quite 'all or nothing' - yes black and white if you will - about opening up and allowing myself to be vulnerable, the learning I needed was around WHO to open up to entirely.  Getting that part right means taking time to gradually assess the dynamic and get to know a person better before making that decision. 

Being cautious about my own vulnerability stems back unsurprisingly to my FOO.  There came a point in my childhood where I shut down and built high walls around myself so that I could not be hurt by leaving myself open for someone to withdraw what I felt I needed.  I became independent at a young age and did everything for myself.  As I grew up it was always my conscious intention to be self sufficient and never rely on anyone for anything.  So it is difficult for me to take that leap, however leapt I have, just with the wrong people.  Without putting enough time and thought in first.  All the signs were there - I just ignored them because I was already invested. 

It's clear that to change the patterns in my life I must do something differently.  Working on the codependency, respecting my own boundaries and spotting the early hooks when they are presented are going to be my continued focus, so that I can be clear about when someone is deserving of my trust. 

Thanks everyone for your great replies.  I'll be back with responses soon to those questions I haven't yet covered.  Lots of food for thought here.  I'm glad this thread resonates with others.

Love and light x     

 

I empathize with this.  I am fiercely independent and view accepting help as another indication of weakness. 

I've tried to figure out what it was about my ex that enabled me to be vulnerable with him.  I remember frequently thinking "Gosh he's just so emotionally available and open!"  He kept saying to me that I was guarded, he couldn't read me... .which was very frustrating because I personally felt as though I was being very open with him.  Unfortunately the last 3 men I've dated have all said similar things about me.  I guess... .maybe I don't know what being vulnerable is.

My therapist says she doesn't want me to take this last relationship as a reason to strengthen the wall I've built around myself.  I don't want to do that either.

[Bo123]

To all, isn't whether we can trust again a common thread among all relationships if we've been hurt?  Most of us do trust again but with a view from a different angle.  One can't love w/o being vulnerable.  Life isn't fair but when there's a break up the pain now was actually part of the pleasure then while in love.  Has anyone mastered the art of love?  I don't think so, there will always be risks, its unavoidable.  Best to all in finding the right place for them to be.

[truthbeknown]

HarleyQ,

this is a great thread bc it brings up so many things that are on the table to conquer.  I have been listening to Ethel Perels videos about infidelity and I'm learning alot.  Those of us on this forum are not the only ones that have been stung.  As Ethel points out, we are in a time when monogamy is a very fragile concept.  In fact, as she says, "monogamy used to be I will be with you for life. and now monogamy seems to be, 'one relationship at a time and we'll see how it goes'".   So it's not just those of us recovering from BPD partners or npd partners that are feeling unsafe.  There is a whole world out there the doesn't even know if they want to be with a partner forever anymore even if their partner is healthy! 

Has the subconscious conditioning of society through social media etc led humans to believe that we cannot be happy in relationships?  I think both experts and non experts and healthy and non healthy people are struggling to define this.  Her work focuses on how to heal from infidelity because it is so prevalent in society these days.  She believes it may have to do with the fact that people are so dissatisfied with their lives that they want to claim a part of them; a fantasy part of them that makes them feel like they have lived before they die. 

So your feeling of not being able to trust is shared by many.  But trust is an act we do isn't it?  we say we trust- meaning have no reason to believe another will hurt us when we feel safe right?  How can we feel safe after being with a disordered person or now just living in a society of people who chase biochemical thrills when they are bored? 

As i  read the stories of people with ex borderline or narcissistic partners one thing seems to be a common thread; they made us feel special in some way.  One of my friends who was burned by two narcissistic relationships has been teaching me what she has learned.  That is to ask what our vulnerabilities were in the relationships.  Hers was giving to her partner what her dad didn't give to her.  So he was emotionally unavailable and she found these sweet guys who "needed" her in some way.  So she let them move in with her after a period of time because she thought that was normal.  Both men were so quick to take her offer on that.  My friend says she will be on the lookout for that again.  I told her well coming off a BPD/npd relationship my life is in rebuilding and I purposely feel reluctant to date because i don't want to burden a woman with my problems.   As we compare these facts it helps us to look at certain aspects of what we were susceptible to.  For me it was the family.  Both my ex wife and this past partner brought me into their world of family very quickly.  I'm not saying it's wrong that they did it but for me it was my achilles heal.  I craved a family with my first because i came from a small, dsyfunctional family.  After the divorce (20yr marriage) with my exBPD wife i was blocked from her family and my kids have been alienated from me.  When i met my recent exgf she had three kids and she was the same religion as me.  She was popular and took me around to all her social contacts.  I felt like I belonged.  So my vulnerability was BELONGING. 

As life would have it, i have met a new female friend since my breakup and neither one of us want a romantic relationship right now. However, she has invited me to events with her daughter and we have had a good time.   A few night ago i was at an event with her and then afterwards her and her daughter (13) had a nice conversation in the car.  She like you is going through a custody battle and has no interest in a romantic relationship.  We talked about masculine and feminine energy in relationship etc. The daughter said, "my mom doesn't like to be vulnerable".  I said that i understood the need for practical protection in the world that we live in.  And that we are all learning about how to walk the line between when to wear our armor and when to take it off.

Harley, i know i'm going on and on but i wanted to share these points because as i related to this woman and her daughter i noticed one key element was lacking that my exgf had- this feeling of her wanting me physically or being attracted to me in an intense way.  I checked in with myself and realized that i felt safer with someone dont wanting me in this way or showing me that they want me in that way but it also taught me about my vulnerability quotient- vulnerability number 1) I liked being wanted because i wasn't wanted by my core family or even now my kids. 2) i like being part of something like a family or core group.   In conclusion, I feel like looking at my vulnerability quotient has helped me see where i need to have my own armor on and hopefully will help me navigate. 

I also met a man who was cheated on and when he met his current fiance, he asked her if she was wiling to go to therapy with him before they got super serious. She agreed.  He felt that was a sign of being willing to work on the relationship even though it was early on.  I thought about that because my ex's didn't like counselors and probably wouldn't have gone.  Maybe that helps build the feelings of safety too.   Also maybe you can find a man like in my situation that just wants to be social friends with you or be a companion versus a lover.  I realized with my ex i would have been happy to just be her companion and not have sex with her.  Unfortunately once we did cross that bridge we couldn't go back.  Hope i didn't overshare here just have been thinking about this stuff so much and i'm glad you posted about it.

[Lucky Jim]

There came a point in my childhood where I shut down and built high walls around myself so that I could not be hurt by leaving myself open for someone

Same for me, HQ.  I suspect that this experience from childhood made me particularly susceptible to a r/s with a pwBPD, though I am unsure exactly why this is so.  Maybe you have an idea?

LJ

[araneina]

Same for me, HQ.  I suspect that this experience from childhood made me particularly susceptible to a r/s with a pwBPD, though I am unsure exactly why this is so.  Maybe you have an idea?

LJ

I've been looking at it like this.  If I see a lion in the wild I'm gonna think "Awesome, a lion.  I'm gonna hang back here by this tree so it doesn't hurt me."  But if I saw a lion that was maybe struggling to breathe, or bleeding badly, I might be more inclined to get close to it, maybe even touch it, because a wounded animal doesn't pose as much of a threat to me (in my mind).  I dunno.  Maybe on some level I detected my ex was wounded and it made it easier for me to get close to him and make myself vulnerable.

Unfortunately it's the wounded animals that are the most dangerous, since they really have nothing to lose.

[Meili]

Perhaps this deserves its own thread, but it seemed fitting here:

How are you defining trust?

Reading with the replies here, I'm struggling to understand the position from which you are all coming. It is not up to another person to keep us safe, it's up to us.

If we remain lovingly detached, how much damage can another person actually do?

Like others, I have been independent most of my life. Mine was thrust upon me rather than a choice though. As a result, I accepted early on that people come and go from our lives. I mourn my losses when they leave. I do not, however, blame them for my choices. No one can take anything from me that I don't freely give. So, for me, as I said in an earlier reply, trust isn't about the other person, it is about myself. The other person can be a saint or a sinner, I have to trust myself and what I want to give. That does not change.

For me, much like our pwBPD counterparts, I always assume that people are going to hurt me. As a result, I regulate how close I allow them to get. That closeness decision is based on how I feel about the other person. But, because I've had to keep myself safe since a very early age, I have learned to always keep myself distant enough that I am safe.

When my x and I split, it was devastating to me emotionally, but I have never blamed her for that. She did not violate my trust. I messed up and allowed myself to become enmeshed with her. I gave up who I was based on what I perceived she wanted. There was and still is zero blame on her.

So, are we really talking about trusting ourselves, or are we talking about others?

[truthbeknown]

I've been looking at it like this.  If I see a lion in the wild I'm gonna think "Awesome, a lion.  I'm gonna hang back here by this tree so it doesn't hurt me."  But if I saw a lion that was maybe struggling to breathe, or bleeding badly, I might be more inclined to get close to it, maybe even touch it, because a wounded animal doesn't pose as much of a threat to me (in my mind).  I dunno.  Maybe on some level I detected my ex was wounded and it made it easier for me to get close to him and make myself vulnerable.

Unfortunately it's the wounded animals that are the most dangerous, since they really have nothing to lose.

I'll use a dog example instead of a lion.  If you had raised and trained a pitbull or doberman and it seemed very tame and obedient and respectful and this went on for years and then all of a sudden it bit you or attacked you unprovoked was it the dogs fault for bad behavior or the owners fault for trusting that the dog was seeming normal and trained?   I think in order to avoid the BPD trap of thinking; it's not one or the other- how about we didn't know the dog would turn on us- so in that way it's not our fault for trusting or should i say feeling safe until then.  And the dog could have been fine but then got an infection or something like rabies affected it and we didn't know and now it turned on us.  Is is the dogs fault that it got Rabies? 

I don't think the conversation is about blame; it is about how to proceed after being bitten.  There will always be the memory of the dog turning on you even though he was a good dog before.  The human brain seems to remember those painful memories because of our cingulate gyrus.  It becomes overactive.  Yes Mell we can operate from the point of view of expecting others to hurt us but isn't that just taking on our former partners projections?   In fact, their expectation of abandonment and being hurt is what usually drives their negative behaviors.   

In the dog example, how do we trust new dogs when we remember that one turned on us. It's a complicated question that lies somewhere between being guarded all the time and realizing that the beloved dog we had changed because of a disease.  I don't think it's blame to say that our partners change.   Yes we have a responsibility to set boundaries and not let someone "bite" us more then once or repeated times but the issue isn't black and white; it is too fluid for that.  We are all at different points in awareness.   

Maybe knowing what to look for sooner tips us off and then we can be on our guard. Our we may never get a new partner again like not getting a new dog again.   The answers lie within us and that is the journey i believe we are on.  I see both sides and i must choose for myself. 

[araneina]

I'll use a dog example instead of a lion.  If you had raised and trained a pitbull or doberman and it seemed very tame and obedient and respectful and this went on for years and then all of a sudden it bit you or attacked you unprovoked was it the dogs fault for bad behavior or the owners fault for trusting that the dog was seeming normal and trained?   I think in order to avoid the BPD trap of thinking; it's not one or the other- how about we didn't know the dog would turn on us- so in that way it's not our fault for trusting or should i say feeling safe until then.  And the dog could have been fine but then got an infection or something like rabies affected it and we didn't know and now it turned on us.  Is is the dogs fault that it got Rabies? 

I don't think the conversation is about blame; it is about how to proceed after being bitten.  There will always be the memory of the dog turning on you even though he was a good dog before.  The human brain seems to remember those painful memories because of our cingulate gyrus.  It becomes overactive.  Yes Mell we can operate from the point of view of expecting others to hurt us but isn't that just taking on our former partners projections?   In fact, their expectation of abandonment and being hurt is what usually drives their negative behaviors.   

In the dog example, how do we trust new dogs when we remember that one turned on us. It's a complicated question that lies somewhere between being guarded all the time and realizing that the beloved dog we had changed because of a disease.  I don't think it's blame to say that our partners change.   Yes we have a responsibility to set boundaries and not let someone "bite" us more then once or repeated times but the issue isn't black and white; it is too fluid for that.  We are all at different points in awareness.   

Maybe knowing what to look for sooner tips us off and then we can be on our guard. Our we may never get a new partner again like not getting a new dog again.   The answers lie within us and that is the journey i believe we are on.  I see both sides and i must choose for myself. 

Yes.  I did not care for the insinuation that we were blaming our partners.  I am always quick to say that I don't blame him for what happened - it was a partnership, after all.  There were 2 of us.  But I do not want to place myself in that kind of situation again.  For me that means looking inwards and determining what it was about my partner that attracted me.  He had many excellent qualities that I still desire in a partner.  But like you said - there were things that rang bells in my head that I willingly ignored.  I do not want to make that mistake again.

[Meili]

I think that there is a huge difference between accepting responsibility for myself and being guarded.

To continue with the dog analogy: I know that all dogs are capable of biting and causing damage. I also know that any dog at any moment must make the choice to follow its instincts or its training. Taking these things as true, it then becomes my responsibility to ensure my safety. I cannot rely on the dog to do so. In fact, this is a very, real-world example for me.

When I was a young child, my family had our beloved Great Dane. I have wonderful scars on my upper lip and the top of my head from when the dog bit me when I was 9 or 10 years old. I am not guarded against dogs. I do not fear dogs. I do not have a lack of trust for dogs per se. I just respect what dogs are capable of doing and govern my actions around them accordingly.

When we look at our relationships, it is the same thing. Whenever we are vulnerable with anyone, we are in the position of being hurt. As with the dog analogy, sometimes things happen that out of the ordinary. I don't look at every dog and think that it will bite me, I just understand that it could. I've been involved with physically abusive women. Does that mean that I think that every woman will be physically abusive and do I guard myself against it? No. I do know that it is possible that a woman may be physically abusive however and the appropriate amounts of caution are used.

I think that the trick for must of us is learning how much caution to apply, when to apply it, and where.

[araneina]

I think that there is a huge difference between accepting responsibility for myself and being guarded.

To continue with the dog analogy: I know that all dogs are capable of biting and causing damage. I also know that any dog at any moment must make the choice to follow its instincts or its training. Taking these things as true, it then becomes my responsibility to ensure my safety. I cannot rely on the dog to do so. In fact, this is a very, real-world example for me.

When I was a young child, my family had our beloved Great Dane. I have wonderful scars on my upper lip and the top of my head from when the dog bit me when I was 9 or 10 years old. I am not guarded against dogs. I do not fear dogs. I do not have a lack of trust for dogs per se. I just respect what dogs are capable of doing and govern my actions around them accordingly.

When we look at our relationships, it is the same thing. Whenever we are vulnerable with anyone, we are in the position of being hurt. As with the dog analogy, sometimes things happen that out of the ordinary. I don't look at every dog and think that it will bite me, I just understand that it could. I've been involved with physically abusive women. Does that mean that I think that every woman will be physically abusive and do I guard myself against it? No. I do know that it is possible that a woman may be physically abusive however and the appropriate amounts of caution are used.

I think that the trick for must of us is learning how much caution to apply, when to apply it, and where.

I think we are all saying relatively the same thing, just using different words.

If I look at a dog and its lips are curled and its baring its teeth, I'm going to exercise caution.  If I go on a date with a man and he spends 20 minutes talking about his cheating/crazy exes, I'm going to exercise caution (actually, in that case, I'll run like the wind).

However if I were to pet a sleeping dog and it snapped at me, that's my fault and I wouldn't think much of it.  Not really sure what a good analogy for that in terms of a relationship would be.