Boundaries - some of the little things (am I wrong in this?) and “manipulation”

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hello,

I have struggled with enabling in my previous marriage and have been through a lot of counseling learning how not to enable. So, tendency but awareness.

I have accepted my uBPD boyfriend’s (of 7mos) rather disrespectful behavior of hanging up on me on the telephone until yesterday. I called him and asked a probing, but not personal, question about our boss (we work together- let me tell you THAT can be difficult!) and his response was to immediately slam the phone down on me. Prior to this everything had been great all day. He has been known to behave that way with others at work, not just me. However, I really hadn’t called him out on it, or laid a boundary until yesterday. When he hung up on me I thought about it a few minutes and then texted him “I do not appreciate being hung up on. I choose not to communicate with a person showing me that level of disrespect. Please let me know if you would like to communicate with me on a more respectful level.”

He responded much later with “oh stop” but when I didn’t respond by that evening around our normal conversation time he went off in anger, threatening to block me on his phone - to which I replied “If you feel hanging up on me is acceptable behavior then I would not argue with your decision.“

He ranted a bit, tried to explain away why he would hang up on me (could not possibly have been factual), never apologized, but with my reinforcement I let him know do not hang up on me like that again.

Tonight I find myself questioning am I wrong?  Most evenings we text, not speak on the phone. And he will frequently just stop texting. Not because he is asleep - I go to bed much earlier than he does. This evening it occurred to me his just stopping in the middle of our conversation is synonymous with hanging up the phone on me (or am I wrong?). It bothered me the same way as when he hung up on me. We were discussing something and he just stopped. I will typically end an evening conversation (when I initiate the end) by saying “good night I love you” or something similar. Very rarely does he say good night back, but I love it when he does.

After some time I did text him and let him know I consider the abrupt end to a conversation via text w/o ENDING it the same as hanging up on me.

Now I’m questioning if my perception is even right. Do most people end conversations via text with an actual end? I do with most people - when we are having an in-depth back and forth conversation.  Most people don’t seem to end one unless/until they say “hey have to go” or something similar.

Or am I wrong?

I know what he will come back with... .eventually... .I am being manipulative and need to stop trying to manipulate him. How do I even respond to that? (It is his go-to when I try to express how I am feeling when it’s not good, or when i try to establish a boundary... .you’re trying to manipulate me... )

I welcome any feedback or new points of view!

[Chemgirl]

Hello,

I have struggled with enabling in my previous marriage and have been through a lot of counseling learning how not to enable. So, tendency but awareness.

I have accepted my uBPD boyfriend’s (of 7mos) rather disrespectful behavior of hanging up on me on the telephone until yesterday. I called him and asked a probing, but not personal, question about our boss (we work together- let me tell you THAT can be difficult!) and his response was to immediately slam the phone down on me. Prior to this everything had been great all day. He has been known to behave that way with others at work, not just me. However, I really hadn’t called him out on it, or laid a boundary until yesterday. When he hung up on me I thought about it a few minutes and then texted him “I do not appreciate being hung up on. I choose not to communicate with a person showing me that level of disrespect. Please let me know if you would like to communicate with me on a more respectful level.”

He responded much later with “oh stop” but when I didn’t respond by that evening around our normal conversation time he went off in anger, threatening to block me on his phone - to which I replied “If you feel hanging up on me is acceptable behavior then I would not argue with your decision.“

He ranted a bit, tried to explain away why he would hang up on me (could not possibly have been factual), never apologized, but with my reinforcement I let him know do not hang up on me like that again.

Tonight I find myself questioning am I wrong?  Most evenings we text, not speak on the phone. And he will frequently just stop texting. Not because he is asleep - I go to bed much earlier than he does. This evening it occurred to me his just stopping in the middle of our conversation is synonymous with hanging up the phone on me (or am I wrong?). It bothered me the same way as when he hung up on me. We were discussing something and he just stopped. I will typically end an evening conversation (when I initiate the end) by saying “good night I love you” or something similar. Very rarely does he say good night back, but I love it when he does.

After some time I did text him and let him know I consider the abrupt end to a conversation via text w/o ENDING it the same as hanging up on me.

Now I’m questioning if my perception is even right. Do most people end conversations via text with an actual end? I do with most people - when we are having an in-depth back and forth conversation.  Most people don’t seem to end one unless/until they say “hey have to go” or something similar.

Or am I wrong?

I know what he will come back with... .eventually... .I am being manipulative and need to stop trying to manipulate him. How do I even respond to that? (It is his go-to when I try to express how I am feeling when it’s not good, or when i try to establish a boundary... .you’re trying to manipulate me... )

I welcome any feedback or new points of view!

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[Tattered Heart]

These are great questions to ask yourself. It sounds like you are putting a judgment on your feelings. Feelings are just feelings. They are neither right or wrong. And in your situation you feel bad when he doesn't respond to you or hangs up on you. Your feelings are an indicator that something isn't working for you.

Great job though letting him know that you do not like it when he hangs up on you and that you do expect a response from him. Our boundaries are for protecting ourselves and our values more than changing the other person's behavior and you are on the first step to letting him know where your line is. At the same time, understand that you can tell him how you feel but he may choose not to respect that.  If he does not respect your concerns and continues to hang up on you or doesn't respond, what will you do? How will you maintain your values in regards to this even if he doesn't?

A couple of our workshops might help you come up with an action plan. I really like SET . D.E.A.R.M.A.N. would be a good one to review to look out how to approach someone with BPD on asking them to do something for you that they may not be open to.

As for the accusations of being manipulative, validation of his feelings while not being invalidated might help quite a bit. But after validating, it will be important to continue to draw the focus back on your values and not be sidetracked by a disagreement on whether you are being manipulative or not. Again, going back to SET.

[Radcliff]

Hello Chemgirl, welcome to the board!  Your question of "Is it me?" is very common.  Being involved with a pwBPD somehow makes us question our internal compass.

On the "hanging up while texting issue," it sounds like you know what feels right to you.  That is what feels right to you, so pay attention to that.  Trust yourself.  Coincidentally, I've had much the same experience as you, that my wife expects me to stay in a phone or text conversation as long as she wants me to, and to say goodbye very explicitly, and only when she is ready, yet she can just disappear.  For a scattered text exchange where we're both busy, no big deal, but for a real conversation like you are describing, my expectations happen to be similar to yours.  "I love you" would be wonderful, but at the very least a "hey, I have to go" or something seems like the minimum.  But the fact that I feel similarly to you is just a bonus -- keep trusting yourself.  If you're in a calm place and you feel a certain way, that's the way you feel.

On the hanging up while on the phone thing, stay true to yourself.  If your values say that's not the thing to do, for certain don't do it yourself.  If he does it, you can't control him.  There's not a magic thing you can do to stop him from doing it.  But if it upsets you, and you need some space from him, or it makes you feel not as close to him, etc., then be OK with that.  You are likely not going to get an apology, so trying to get him to atone for the sin is probably not going to be productive, but don't go the other way and stuff your feelings to keep the peace.  Don't "try to teach him a lesson" but also don't protect him from the natural consequences of his actions.  Does that make any sense?

WW

[Chemgirl]

Thank you for the resource links Tattered Heart. Learning techniques is helpful - and I’m finding reviewing and rereviewing many of the resources on this site helpful. Reminders and reinforcements are necessary.

If he does not respect my boundaries, I may have  to make a decision that this relationship is not healthy, or what I need for me. But, I don’t feel that threats like that should be stated as such. I can’t threaten that. I need to reinforce my boundaries in words. In actions I might stop telephone communication for a time period, or something similarly fitting.

One of my concerns is I don’t want to be manipulative. I want my actions and reactions to be healthy - and I do not want to enable. 

Wentworth -thank you also, what you say makes sense, although I need to practice it. Again and again. I did find myself in a 16yr marriage where I would dismiss ME.  My feelings were not important, were dismissed and questioned all the time to the point I didn’t trust myself any longer. I cannot allow that to happen again.

The more and more I read about how codependent personalities and BPD personalities seeem to gravitate to each other — I see it in me and (thanks to this site) have more references to help me avoid certain reactions and behaviors.

[Tattered Heart]

One of my concerns is I don’t want to be manipulative. I want my actions and reactions to be healthy - and I do not want to enable. 

What do you think you are doing that is manipulative?

But, I don’t feel that threats like that should be stated as such. I can’t threaten that. I need to reinforce my boundaries in words. In actions I might stop telephone communication for a time period, or something similarly fitting.

Correct. Threats are just a form of controlling others. If you don't do what I say then I'm going to punish you with X. A boundary is something that is reinforcing your own behavior when others violate your values.

[Radcliff]

Hi Chemgirl,

To learn more about boundaries, you might want to visit this page on setting boundaries, this thread on scripts for setting boundaries, and this thread on boundary setting examples.

If you've spent a bunch of time in relationships without a good sense of boundaries or where you lost the definition of yourself, you might find reading "Boundaries," by Cloud and Townsend, to be useful.  I'm in the middle of it now.  The Christian scripture references are a little heavy for my taste, so I'm a little hesitant to recommend it in this context, but it's what I've got at the moment and it's been very helpful to me in building my understanding of boundaries, the role of my family of origin, how things have been operating for so many years in my marriage, why it's a challenge to establish boundaries, and how to start learning to live with boundaries.

WW

[livednlearned]

Hi Chemgirl,

I'm wondering if maybe one of the boundaries (over which you have control) is to not talk about work with him? Keep everything in its lane, so to speak. Is that something that seems to be a trouble spot in the relationship in general?

“I do not appreciate being hung up on. I choose not to communicate with a person showing me that level of disrespect. Please let me know if you would like to communicate with me on a more respectful level.”

This might be kinda confusing for him, and perhaps a bit vague. And a tiny bit patronizing    There may be some radical acceptance of his emotional immaturity needed, which I know can be hard. This is a person who is quick to trigger and probably takes a long time to return to emotional baseline. Not cool, but also not something you can really fix.

The way his brain works, being prone to intense emotions, could mean that he doesn't link the chain of relationship events together all that clearly. Then, he gets a text saying he isn't showing respect, but for him, he was triggered by something said and handled the intensity of how he felt by doing the only thing he knew how to do. When you texted him back, he was probably still emotionally aroused, and may not even understand over what.

What might be more effective is to wait until he is in the cool zone and then put it in terms that have to do with you, so he isn't doubly triggered by feeling shamed.

Something like, "When someone hangs up on me, I feel disrespected and it makes me sad. I understand there are times when people feel too emotionally upset to continue the conversation. Going forward, when that happens with us, I will need a break for a while, with no texting or phone communication. It helps me take care of myself, so I can show myself the respect I need. When I've cooled off I can engage with you again, but it might take me a day."

He's probably not going to change his behavior. You can only change yours, and find things over which you have control.

It's kind of like the silent treatment, if you ever get that doozy from him. Sometimes, people with BPD go silent because they are riding out a big one. So let them.  

This is different than letting them walk all over you, or trying to fix/rescue them. You are setting limits that show self-respect while recognizing he has problems regulating his emotions, and probably lacks relationship skills that admittedly can make things feel one-sided.

[Chemgirl]

TH - I do not feel that what I’ve done has been manipulative, however he has on many occasions accused me of being manipulative. Any time I try to say what I need or want in our relationship he accuses me of being manipulative. So I want to expressly AVOID it.

WW- thank you for the reference links. I have been through them all and refreshers are always good. I try to go through the helps on this page regularly. It’s a kind of grounding and reminder for me. I have read Boundaries the book and found it immensely helpful, but when I tried to locate it in my library to reread I couldn’t find it. I have one on order right now. It helped me through establishing necessary boundaries in the one (16yr) marriage I have had which started (10+years of) boundary-less, or where my now exH pushed and destroyed any boundaries I tried to uphold.

L&L - I appreciate your suggestions - somethings to think about. I haven’t felt work talk to cause any issues with us, but establishing WHEN and WHERE we talk about work could be better. I do need to practice being clear about boundaries, how I choose to respond to a violation and how to communicate that to him without being (or sounding - because in now way do i intend to be) manipulative.

Thank you all for your time and thoughtful responses. As always - a lot to think about.

[Tattered Heart]

TH - I do not feel that what I’ve done has been manipulative, however he has on many occasions accused me of being manipulative. Any time I try to say what I need or want in our relationship he accuses me of being manipulative. So I want to expressly AVOID it.

I understand not wanting to seem manipulative. Avoiding saying things just because he doesn't like it can lead to walking on egg shells though.  Avoidance of topics and subjects comes form FOG .

Instead of avoiding the topic, instead when he makes the accusation could you say something like"It's important to me that I'm not being manipulative. Specifically what part of what I said was manipulative?" or even "I hear what your saying. What does manipulation mean to you? I want to make sure we are on the same page and I think we might have different definitions."?