Forgiving your FOO

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I know that not everyone here has had a bad experience regarding their FOO, and that’s a good thing. For those that have, has forgiving, or starting to forgive them played an important role in healing the core wounds from childhood? I’m just curious to hear about other’s experiences regarding this, and where you are in the process. This is something I’ve begun to do. I’m slowly starting to view them as people instead of monsters. I’m realizing that something had to have happened to them somewhere along the way to cause them to act the way they did. I guess I’m beginning to find a minute amount of sympathy for them. In their final days I can see how tired and sad my mother was, and how helpless and delusional my father was. I don’t want to be any of those things in life. It’d be great to hear any POV’s on this.

[JNChell]

I know that not everyone here has had a bad experience regarding their FOO, and that’s a good thing. For those that have, has forgiving, or starting to forgive them played an important role in healing the core wounds from childhood? I’m just curious to hear about other’s experiences regarding this, and where you are in the process. This is something I’ve begun to do. I’m slowly starting to view them as people instead of monsters. I’m realizing that something had to have happened to them somewhere along the way to cause them to act the way they did. I guess I’m beginning to find a minute amount of sympathy for them. In their final days I can see how tired and sad my mother was, and how helpless and delusional my father was. I don’t want to be any of those things in life. It’d be great to hear any POV’s on this.

[Fie]

Hello NChell   


Interesting thread ! I think there has been a post about this some time ago. If you are interested, you can always look it up (maybe with the keyword 'forgive' or something).

When I started to unravel the unhealthy dynamics of my FOO, I was relieved (I had always been the black sheep and I thought not so positive about myself), but also angry. As I unpacked more and more, I got angrier, until sometimes I was really furious :-)

Luckily that feeling started to fade away, because I was a little stuck in my anger. Now and then, meditating or so, I even felt compassion and once meditating I felt very sad seeing my mum as the little sad girl she must have been.

I guess I’m beginning to find a minute amount of sympathy for them.

 
I am not sure if you meant this literally, the minute, but in this way I think forgiveness works for me. Sometimes I have a moment of sympathy for my FOO, and then out it goes and off I am thinking : 'ok but they do have a choice to be different'. To me NPD/BPD is not a disease. It's a character disturbance and it can be worked on. It's just a lot easier not to do that.

I am not sure about this whole forgiveness concept. If forgiveness means that I am *never* angry or frustrated anymore about how my FOO is, then no, I haven't found forgiveness (and I don't think I ever will). Responsibility is a key word for me ; I think we all have a choice to make our own lives, every day - even with an unhealthy upbringing. These boards are the proof of that.

But I did find a certain peace around everything. My parents probably did the best they could. They also had their stuff going on in their FOO. I accept that they will never change - I am sure about that, and it's ok.

Maybe the answer to your question really depends on the definition of forgiveness. If one day my parents would tell me 'we have been wrong and we want to be a part of your life again', I would let them in and I would probably put a lot of effort in our relationship. Does this mean I have forgiven them ? I think it's very hard to forgive someone if there is no remorse / expressing they are sorry. If everything is still going on, how can you forgive ?

I am interested in seeing the responses of others, and what they see as forgiveness.

[JNChell]

Thanks Fie. This has me thinking a little deeper. Oh, by minute I meant a small amount of sympathy  . I am definitely still angry with them. That’s what I would like to get away. It just clouds everything. I once attempted to call them out and hold them responsible. I was gaslighted. They denied it all. I left questioning my sanity. I’m sure you know the game. Anyway, I feel that I left the ball in their court in hopes that one day they’d see the light. Never happened. They both passed away in 2010. It has taken a long time to start to really figure out what is going on with me. I’m beginning to understand why I get so angry now when I find myself in another abusive relationship, and there is no closure when it finally implodes. I used to be a real doormat, but now I just get angry about it. Anyway, I’m getting off point here.

I can totally relate to you on being the black sheep. I have a sister. We were both adopted. Honestly, I have a hard time wrapping my head around how people actually saved me in a sense, only to abuse me on sadistic levels. Anyway, it was a golden child/scapegoat scenario with us. She was pampered. She turned out really well though. She’s a total people pleaser and this has given her quite a bit of grief, but she’s a kind soul. Ironically enough, she’s a psychologist. I’m very proud of her. She carries some guilt over our childhoods, but I always tell her that I would go through it again so she wouldn’t have to.

I’ve not tried to learn how to meditate yet. I’ve read quite a few threads where folks have mentioned it. Perhaps it’s something I should start to focus on.

Wow! I’m really stuck on how you put this. “The meaning of forgiveness”. I don’t have the ability to forgive them in the flesh anymore. I’ll never hear them say that they’re sorry. I guess I need to sort that out in my mind. Thank you so much for replying! This has me thinking.

[JNChell]

Fie, I forgot to state that, yes, these people do have a choice. That is the hardest part. Where you or I would take the hard responsibility for our actions, try to discuss it in a meaningful way and try to grow the relationship, these people, in most instances, “choose” not to. That aspect is a painful one. They have the ability to do this, but choose not to. This has always made me feel that I’m not worthy of that “choice”. Hope that makes sense.

[madeline7]

Fie's comment about how it is hard to forgive when there is no remorse really got me thinking. I usually end up feeling like there is something wrong with me that I am unable to forgive. When I do have feeling of compassion rising up in me, it is very quickly replaced with anger, then I feel guilty again. A carousel of emotions and I want off of that ride. Now my FOO is along for the ride with the pwBPD and my issues around forgiveness are more complicated. I know forgiveness would be healthier for me, I am just not there and need guidance to find the way.

[CollectedChaos]

This is a great thread, thank you!  Really got me thinking.

Forgiveness in a all-encompassing sense would be very difficult, and I'm not sure I will ever get there.  I've gotten to a point where most of the time, I can accept that my parents were doing the best they were capable of doing at the time.   That's not to say I don't still get angry (more often than I'd care to admit) - they were the adults and should have been protecting me from the things that they were instead subjecting me to.  But I think my mom is so focused on herself she isn't capable of properly caring for another human, and my dad was so focused on not rocking the boat that he let a lot of things slide that he shouldn't have.  Both were unable to see the problems at hand, whether by choice or by self-preservation.  I can't forgive them for that, but I can accept that it simply was what it was.  I totally agree that it is painful to recognize that they did have a choice and chose a route that was unhealthy and damaging for the sake of their own comfort (although I think this is perceived comfort at best... .).  I'm still working through that part too - it's easy to get angry when you see that they chose to continue their damaging patterns instead of take some responsibility and make changes.  It really makes you feel like you don't matter at all, at least not to them.

I'm not sure I'll ever get to complete forgiveness - I think acceptance is the best I will be able to do, but time will tell I suppose.

[Fie]

I'm not sure I'll ever get to complete forgiveness - I think acceptance is the best I will be able to do, but time will tell I suppose.

I feel very similar. How is acceptance  different from forgiveness for you, Collectedchaos ?

As by coincidence I bumped into this today, a program called SMOOCH. Founded by a woman who's son was killed. She's forgiven the murderer and they now go talk together in prisons, churches etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAkEdgC4Mbw

So incredibly beautiful. That's the kind of forgiveness I think I will not attain. To be able to hug my mum (who never hugged me) and say that I am totally not angry anymore and never will be. But then again, she's not sorry ... .and she doesn''t give me the opportunity to go this far.
It that presumptuous ? Like I make it sound that my mum did worse things than this killer ? (which of course is not the case)

I don't seem to be able to wrap my head around it. :-)

[CollectedChaos]

It's hard to describe, now that I'm trying to put it into words!  I think for me acceptance is just the understanding that what happened, happened - that it can't be changed now.  Accepting that my mom is not the mom that I wish I had, or someone I can have a healthy relationship with.  Accepting that I am missing something that people take for granted, I guess?  And accepting that she is who she is, and is that way for reasons unknown to me, and that she is unwilling to make changes to that.

I think forgiveness, for me, is being able to say that despite all of the crazy things she has said and done, I still love her and support her and am not hurt or upset by anything in the past anymore.  And I don't think I'll ever get to that point.  I'm also not sure I'll ever stop being angry, at least at a low level.  It took me a long time to get to the anger though, so maybe in time it will also fade?

It that presumptuous ? Like I make it sound that my mum did worse things than this killer ? (which of course is not the case)

What a beautiful video - I got teary watching it!  I don't think I will ever feel that kind of forgiveness either, unfortunately.
 I think the part about our families not being sorry is a huge part of not being able to forgive.  Of course, our parents were not worse than killers, but they have no remorse.  I think everyone can make bad decisions in life, some that are more damaging to those around them than others.  But everyone has the choice to move forward from those decisions and improve.  The people who are willing to look within themselves and make changes are easier to forgive, because it's clear that they see the issues at hand and want to work on them to ensure they don't make the same mistakes over and over.  I think acknowledgement of the issue is huge, and likely something that someone with a PD won't ever admit or be able to see.  If they admit they are the problem, that means they have to make changes in their life and that part is too hard/scary/whatever.  Denial is easier.

I think growing up the way we did also makes it harder to wrap our minds around.  I am always saying that my childhood could have been a lot worse - comparing my childhood to those who have had physical or sexual abuse, outright neglect, etc.  It's sometimes hard for me to accept that even if it wasn't as "severe" as those cases, I still went through trauma as a child.  There either is abuse or there isn't - there really isn't any grey area in a technical sense.  If I were looking at any other person with the same background as I have, I would totally agree that their childhood was traumatic.  But with me, I minimize.  Which then makes it harder to wrap my mind around not being ready or able to forgive - if it wasn't so bad, what am I hung up on?  Am I just being dramatic?  But there it is again... .the mindset I was forced into as a kid.  "This isn't bad, things are fine, she's your mother and it doesn't matter what she does... ."  I think I'm limiting myself sometimes by always questioning how I feel... .trying to work on that.  And now I'm kind of off on a tangent, sorry... .

If my mom were to suddenly have a lightbulb go off and realize that she is the problem and not everyone around her, and actually go through the hard work of T and mending fences, she would be easier to forgive for her past digressions.  But that will never happen, and I think that's the part I've accepted.  She won't change, but I can.

Sheesh... .sorry for the rambling response! 

[JNChell]

I think growing up the way we did also makes it harder to wrap our minds around.  I am always saying that my childhood could have been a lot worse - comparing my childhood to those who have had physical or sexual abuse, outright neglect, etc.  It's sometimes hard for me to accept that even if it wasn't as "severe" as those cases, I still went through trauma as a child.

[Panda39]

I come at this from a different angle my SO has an uBPDxw I think what he struggles with in terms of forgiveness is that almost every interaction (there aren't many any more) is the opportunity for re-injury so it is hard to forgive someone that continues to hurt you (or trigger you) over and over again.

Panda39

[Woolspinner2000]

I always enjoy the depth of thought and discussion the topic of forgiveness brings. Thank you for starting this thread, JNChell.   

When I was growing up, the word 'forgive' in my home, church and Christian school was almost a buzz word thrown around so much that it was typically received as a command or obligation. Jesus does tell us to forgive, so what does that mean? How can forgiveness be healthy for us?

Pete Walker, M.A. Psychotherapist, published an article about forgiveness which has proven both validating and extremely helpful to me (see below). It is one thing to forgive someone who cuts in line in front of us. It's an entirely different issue to attempt to forgive when we've grown up under years of abuse from a pwBPD. The layers of complexity as to how we were affected also influences how we work through forgiveness.

There has been a lot of shaming, dangerous and inaccurate "guidance" put out about forgiveness in the last few years, in both the recovery community and in transpersonal circles. Many survivors of dysfunctional families have been injured by the simplistic, black and white advice that decrees that they must embrace a position of being totally and permanently forgiving in order to recover. Unfortunately, those who have taken the advice to forgive abuses that they have not fully grieved, abuses that are still occurring, and/or abuses so heinous they should and could never be forgiven, often find themselves getting nowhere in their recovery process. In fact, the possibility of attaining real feelings of forgiveness is usually lost when there is a premature, cognitive decision to forgive. This is because premature forgiving intentions mimic the defenses of denial and repression. They keep unprocessed feelings of anger and hurt about childhood unfairnesses out of awareness.

Real forgiveness is quite distinct from premature forgiveness. It is almost always a byproduct of effective grieving and no amount of thought, intention or belief can bring it into being without a descension into the feeling realms.

What are your thoughts after reading this excerpt?

 
Wools

[blondie0507]

I think growing up the way we did also makes it harder to wrap our minds around.  I am always saying that my childhood could have been a lot worse - comparing my childhood to those who have had physical or sexual abuse, outright neglect, etc.  It's sometimes hard for me to accept that even if it wasn't as "severe" as those cases, I still went through trauma as a child.  There either is abuse or there isn't - there really isn't any grey area in a technical sense.  If I were looking at any other person with the same background as I have, I would totally agree that their childhood was traumatic.  But with me, I minimize.  Which then makes it harder to wrap my mind around not being ready or able to forgive - if it wasn't so bad, what am I hung up on?  Am I just being dramatic?  But there it is again... .the mindset I was forced into as a kid.  "This isn't bad, things are fine, she's your mother and it doesn't matter what she does... ."  I think I'm limiting myself sometimes by always questioning how I feel... .trying to work on that.  And now I'm kind of off on a tangent, sorry... .

If my mom were to suddenly have a lightbulb go off and realize that she is the problem and not everyone around her, and actually go through the hard work of T and mending fences, she would be easier to forgive for her past digressions.  But that will never happen, and I think that's the part I've accepted.  She won't change, but I can.
 

That is exactly how I feel!  I almost feel guilty for feeling bad -- isn't that silly?  I tell myself I'm not able to feel bad for myself because others have it worse.  I'm learning to let go of that mindset through therapy.  By the way, cognitive behavioral therapy is awesome -- I've learned so much in just a short time.

To get back to the original post of forgiveness, I think it's probably an individual choice whether forgiveness is important to their healing.  I feel like it's imperative.  I feel like I absolutely cannot move forward without forgiving--it's a peace that I get once I do it.  But, forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting it ever happened, it's letting go of the bitterness and hate that you feel toward them.  It can be a long and hard process.

[CollectedChaos]

Thank you for posting that excerpt, Wools - I Googled the full article and it was a good read.  It makes a lot of sense - you can superficially forgive, or try to force yourself into it, but it isn't true forgiveness.  Reading that passage was comforting in a sense - validating that forgiving is a much deeper process than a lot of people seem to think.  I definitely agree that the term "forgiveness" is very much something that is just tossed around as though it is a simple thing that "good people" do freely.  But there's so much more to it than that!  I've had several people tell me that I should just forgive my mom and move forward when they hear that I am NC.  I know they have no real understanding of my situation and think they are giving me good advice (It's not often you hear of children not speaking to their mothers - it goes against convention to say the least).  But they just don't "get it."  That article was very validating, that it is a process that takes time and effort.

I feel like it's imperative.  I feel like I absolutely cannot move forward without forgiving--it's a peace that I get once I do it.  But, forgiveness doesn't mean forgetting it ever happened, it's letting go of the bitterness and hate that you feel toward them.

I agree with this to a point, blondie, and I think you are probably a better person than I to be able to work on forgiving, knowing that doesn't mean forgetting.  I guess in my mind there is a difference between letting bitterness go and forgiving.  I'm no longer particularly bitter with my mom in a general sense, but I can't let myself forgive her yet.  To me that feels much more... .intimate?  I think that right now, my mind thinks that forgiving her is synonymous with saying that what she did was "okay" - giving her a pass, so to speak.  Like, "well, it was bad, but it's in the past and I'm okay with it now."  And I am at a point right now where I guess I am fairly vindictive in the sense that I can't give her that satisfaction (even if she has no idea that my forgiveness exists, we are NC).  I don't want to give anyone an opportunity to assume that any of it was or is okay, I guess.  I think this feeling will pass and eventually I will just accept and not feel so negatively about it or feel so vindictive, but I am not sure I'll ever get to the point where I can truly forgive.  I'm still weighing whether forgiving is something I really need to strive for.  I'm glad that you have figured that part out - I think that's huge!

[blondie0507]

I agree with this to a point, blondie, and I think you are probably a better person than I to be able to work on forgiving, knowing that doesn't mean forgetting.  I guess in my mind there is a difference between letting bitterness go and forgiving.  I'm no longer particularly bitter with my mom in a general sense, but I can't let myself forgive her yet.  To me that feels much more... .intimate?  I think that right now, my mind thinks that forgiving her is synonymous with saying that what she did was "okay" - giving her a pass, so to speak.  Like, "well, it was bad, but it's in the past and I'm okay with it now."  And I am at a point right now where I guess I am fairly vindictive in the sense that I can't give her that satisfaction (even if she has no idea that my forgiveness exists, we are NC).  I don't want to give anyone an opportunity to assume that any of it was or is okay, I guess.  I think this feeling will pass and eventually I will just accept and not feel so negatively about it or feel so vindictive, but I am not sure I'll ever get to the point where I can truly forgive.  I'm still weighing whether forgiving is something I really need to strive for.  I'm glad that you have figured that part out - I think that's huge!

I do see your point, CollectedChaos -- I think that being raised in a house with a uBPDm has taught me that forgiveness and moving on is quicker and less stressful for the family-- maybe I haven't truly forgiven her... .Something I'll need to think about as I move forward with her and any relationship really.  I'm NC with my mom and haven't really begun to think about forgiving her for this past round of rage she had.  It still hurts and will have to work through a lot to get there.  She said some really hateful things that hit me hard... .

Now that I'm older and maybe a little wiser than I was living at home   when I think of forgiveness with my mom, I think of acknowledging that my mom is sick, and that what she does/says is part of that.  Not saying that what she said or did is OK, (not in the least!) but being able to let go of the hurt that was caused from it and being able to care for my mom -- care, meaning I hope she finally opens her eyes and realizes she needs help and sees all the damage she's done to my sister and I.  But... .you did make a valid point and I am going to have to think on that... .

But -- this isn't everyone's view of forgiveness and like I said, I truly think it's different for everyone -- I hope that one day you'll find that forgiveness for your mom.


Sorry if all that was confusing -- I type like someone thinking out loud -- tons of ideas all coming out at the same time--and sometimes it translates a little muddled!   

[CollectedChaos]

Blondie,

I do totally agree that being raised the way we were, it was always easier to "forgive,"move on, and not dwell or try to make things right.  Often by the next day, my mom would seemingly forget the complete mess of the day before, so bringing it up always seemed futile - like, if I bring it up I'm inflicting more pain on myself so what's the point?

I think you have a great view of what forgiveness really means - definitely a great thing to strive for!  While ideally that is where I would like to get to, I am not certain it is realistic for me, but time will tell.  I figure I'll eventually get to wherever I need to be as long as I keep working towards the ultimate goal of healing the wounds I have from her and being a better, healthier person for it.

[blondie0507]

You will get there, CollectedChaos -- I believe we all will one day! 

[Fie]

The excerpt of Woolspinner made me think back about another post, I have found it back :

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=312076.0;prev_next=next

I like the comment from Notwendy :

"do we extend kindness, love, forgiveness, and tolerance to ourselves? Many of us are good at doing this for others, but tend to forget that self love and self care are essential. "