raised by BPD, now attracting Narcissists

[Greg]

Hi everyone,
  Haven't been back here in a couple years (really should come around more) and I'm glad to see this community is still thriving!  It has helped me so very much over the years.

  This is kind of a strange post because it is not exactly about direct BPD abuse.  I have been No Contact with my BPD "mother" for almost 10 years now and it has been terrific.  I feel like I have been building a new life for myself (which I have) with so many beautiful things I never thought were possible.

Well, some of this came crashing down this past week as I learned my most recent ex is a covert Narcissist.  The abuse from Narcs is absolutely shattering.  It has done a number on me for sure.

What is amazing about this is that I usually am pretty good about spotting abuse (I think?) because of so many years of therapy and work.  This Narc was a pro for sure though, and knew how important it was to respect my boundaries, validate me, etc. which I require in all my relationships after being raised by BPD.

Well Narc abuse and BPD abuse are not the same thing.

It turns out that BPD-raised children are PRIME TARGETS FOR NARCISSISTS.  :)ue to our upbringing, many of us develop into "empaths" - highly sensitive to others emotions and needs as part of our survival.  We also can develop a chronic low self-esteem and are prone to doubt our reality at times, especially with a trusted loved one who passes our "BPD-proof" testing.

Well it turns out that Narcissists *love* to prey on people like us.  Like we are the freaking naked sheep in the cold and they are the wolves prowling the fence at night.  This Narc was beautiful, affectionate, and love-bombed me with elaborate gifts.  They regulated their emotions, respected boundaries (at first), and kept their mask on pretty well.  By the time the abuse was happening it was too late:  I was completely gaslit and seduced.

I can't stress enough how important it is for us to educate around Narcissism Personality Disorder.  We are very suseptible to it.  I don't want anyone to feel the devastation I am going through right now.  So many definitions and help online about this are lacking, but this is a great one I've found:
www.thriveafterabuse.com/the-red-flags-of-a-narcissist-series-is-here/

Best of luck in healing everyone,

-Greg

[sweetheart]

Hi Greg,

I think in all relationships the bits of ourselves that sometimes we initially keep from the other person take a while to appear... All new relationships have a honeymoon phase and as I’m sure you’re aware despite your very best efforts to protect yourself, it can take a while for the behaviours associated with pwPDs or traits of these disorders to emerge.
Sometimes despite are very best efforts, the feeling of being loved and valued and given lots of attention is very seductive and who wouldn’t want to think that it was the start of a loving relationship. I’m sorry that for you this time it wasn’t.

It is also easy despite our best efforts to sometimes be blindsided by others with traits from our FOO because these are interactions we have become very familiar being around. Sometimes, labels aside the other person turns out just not to be right for us.

I don’t believe the world is full of people lurking with PDs waiting to reek havoc in relationships. Ultimately pwPD want relationships too, and without support and awareness about their condition relationships are often impossible for them to navigate successfully as well.

I can hear that you have the support of good friends and have spent valuable time focused on increasing your awareness about how your FOO experience affected you.

You are right in saying, certainly going by the relationships on this forum, that often pwBPD attract pw narcissistic traits and also people who like looking after someone. I fell into the latter category.
Knowledge and awareness is empowering and means that you are looking after yourself.

Going forward for me labels matter less than the realisation that the other person just turns out not to be right for you. 

[Notwendy]

Going forward for me labels matter less than the realisation that the other person just turns out not to be right for you.


I think this is a good point- there doesn't even have to be something "wrong" with the other person for them to not be a good match for someone. People have different priorities, life goals, aspirations and attractions.

I do however agree that our FOO's influence our attraction and who is attracted to us. I have read and heard that if someone leaves a relationship and gets into another one soon- without doing some personal work on why that relationship didn't work- there is a good chance he/she will end up in a similar situation with someone else.

This is a big motivator to work on our FOO issues- either in or out of a relationship. Some of us have poor boundaries, fears of abandonment, or are attracted to people we can "rescue". We may fear standing up for ourselves or saying "no" and this can add to dysfunction in a relationship.

The idea that there are narcissitic people out there just looking for potential victims is possible. Unfortunately there are selfish and unscrupulous people in the world. However, we are not victims. We can choose who to have a relationship with and learn to discern better and also have better boundaries.

Sometimes it isn't us. I know a narcisist who is very charming. Women fall for him- and the relationships don't last. Fortunately I was not single when I met him and there was no interest on my part but he dated a friend of mine and it didn't go well. I don't blame these women or think they are victims- he's just good at putting on the charm. I agree with Sweetheart that it takes time to know someone. I think in our modern culture, people tend to get physical very quickly in relationships. A hallmark of PD relationships is that they are intense and progress quickly. Maybe proceeding slowly in a new relationship is a good idea.

[Greg]

While your posts are well meaning, I think both of you are missing the point entirely.

NPD is a "label" just as much as "BPD."  They are both real, actual diagnosis that help define our abuse through a structured, verifiable set of behavior patterns.  Understanding abuse and identifying it (yes, with labels!) is key to getting help.  You can't fix the problem if you don't know what the problem is.

You obviously believe this already, or you wouldn't be here.  If we didn't believe in "labels," why would we be at bpdfamily.com?


I am not intending to victimize myself in any way.  The fact of the matter is, being empaths and having an abusive upbringing can make us very susceptible to this very particular kind of abuse (from NPDs)... .it's textbook!  I'm just warning people to not fall into the same trap as I did... .


Narcissists are very good at preying upon BPD survivors and it is something people should look out for.  Had I familiarized myself with this beforehand I would have saved myself a world of pain.

-Greg

[Turkish]

For every feeling there is a need.  What do you think your needs are when considering the context of a BPD mother? Can you identify the feeling which gets you hooked?

For me,  "she's really pretty, she's young,  and she's way into me.  Can I let this pass by despite my reservations?" Was what I was thinking at the time? She warned me too! It goes deeper than that given the dysfunction of growing up with a BPD mother, but I'm interested in what you think?

That many of us fall into the trap,  as you say,  may be a given.  But what is the trap?

[so_overit]

Well it turns out that Narcissists *love* to prey on people like us.  Like we are the freaking naked sheep in the cold and they are the wolves prowling the fence at night.

My almost-ex husband is covert narc with BPD traits. I have done a ton of learning, research, etc. and one person who has really helped me is Lisa A Romano on youtube. Her videos are so insightful. She was raised by narc parents and ended up drawing that to her in relationship. One thing she explains quite well, is that our subconscious is actually drawing them like a magnet. Might not necessarily be 'love to prey' on but they are drawn in by tendencies that were learned by being raised in BPD, npd, etc.

I also love listening to youtube vids by The Little Shaman Healing. I have learned lots about dealing with my covert narc.

Anyway, a video I listened to from LAR, I would like to share. She compared the narc to a lion in your yard. If you found a lion in your yard you wouldn't just approach it. But if you saw it was 'hurt' you might feel bad and try and help it. The lion can't see there is a spear in its back. It doesn't know why it is hurting, it just knows it is hurt. You feel drawn to help the lion, and as you remove the spear (care-taking), the lion attacks you. It is hurting for another reason entirely, but assumes it is you! and it lashes out at you.

The narc isn't searching for prey, per se, it is drawn to certain prey by what that prey is giving out subconsciously. JMHO.

[Notwendy]

I believe in labels. They are very useful. It was actually the label NPD that helped me to learn about BPD. I looked it up and it didn't fit quite right- then BPD was mentioned and when I read about it- BINGO.

So let's examine this statement again: Going forward for me labels matter less than the realization that the other person just turns out not to be right for you.


This doesn't meant the label does not matter. It means it is relatively more important to recognize that a person isn't right for you- no matter what the label is.

Yes, let's accept that there are NPD's out there waiting to prey on vulnerable targets. So the next question is - how to not be a target for the NPD? We can not change them- they want what they want, so the only way I know how to change from being a target to not being one is to look at what it is about me that makes me a target.

Our upbringing is a part of this. Another part is to not recognize when a potential romantic partner is good for you or not good for you. There are several factors that go into this- one of them is boundaries, another is that perhaps the dysfunctional pattern is familiar and then another one is who we are attracted to and what do we recognize as red flags?

What makes this relatively more important than knowing the person is a NPD? It's because they are really good at what they do, but somewhere along the line, something will seem "off " to us. Perhaps our best defense is recognizing how we feel when this happens and if it does, being quicker to let them go. In this way, it is about us, not about them.

[so_overit]

Another part is to not recognize when a potential romantic partner is good for you or not good for you.

ding ding ding ding! you are so right. I am doing work on this subject so I don't go out in this world and make the same mistake again. Since my very first b-friend, I have ignored red flags in partners, and I have chosen ppl that I thought I could fix (so them not being good-for-me didn't matter, right? oh, I can just fix that... .). Red flags will not be ignored by me ever again.

[Fie]

Thank you, Greg for wanting to warn us.

A lot of us are indeed drawn towards NPD, who (I think you are right) sometimes are preying on us.

I like how Notwendy sees this. Imagine we are approached by NPD (let's say he preys on us). We cannot change him or prevent him from approaching us. There is only one solution : to not be attracted by him. To recognize him for what he is, also. That means delving into our FOO and the way we were brought up.

And then when we are heading towards healing, we will actually prevent a lot of NPD approaching. I used to draw them towards me like a magnet  :-)

I like this site : https://narcsite.com

the articles are written by a pNPD so it's very realistic. But again, recognizing a NPD is not enough ... .we need to work on ourselves to not be attracted by them.

Developing boundaries... .

By the time the abuse was happening it was too late:  I was completely gaslit and seduced.

If you want to tell us about your situation, we are here to listen. Feel free, if you are up for that.

[Greg]

Thanks Fie,  your post has been the most helpful so far.

Imagine we are approached by NPD (let's say he preys on us). We cannot change him or prevent him from approaching us. There is only one solution : to not be attracted by him. To recognize him for what he is, also. That means delving into our FOO and the way we were brought up.

Yep!  That's why I wanted to talk about this here.  So we can all examine exactly what we are attracted to and why.  We can't change the abuser but we can educate ourselves and examine the patterns... .and with therapy and time, sort of "reprogram" our instincts to find better people.

NotWendy's last post had some helpful stuff too:

Perhaps our best defense is recognizing how we feel when this happens and if it does, being quicker to let them go.

I agree with this.  The difficulty lies in the "recognizing" part.  I've been aware of BPD for over 10 years now and spent most of that in intense therapy and education.  The problem with NPD/Narcs is that they are masters of deception, much more than the BPD I was raised by.  I looked for red flags, set lots of boundaries (which Narc respected!) and did many of the BPD protective / preventative checks that I do now.

The problem was that this NPD is a highly functioning covert Narc.  Lots of love-bombing + respecting boundaries + no actual "crisis" or "drama" made this relationship seem very different from the BPD abuse I am familiar with.  She graduated from an ivy-league school and is highly intelligent, talented, attractive, and loved by everyone around her.  That's what makes covert Narcs the worst kind of Narcs.

I've spent many years in therapy and elsewhere trying to make sure I'm attracted to good people.  It just isn't that simple though.  Narc's do prey upon us - this woman picked me up at a meditation group, groomed me with love bombing, gaslit / devalued me, and left me for dead when the time came.  They prey upon what they believe will bring them their supply (ego validation).  Often that's people like us.

The reason I mention all this is because, again, if I had known about NPD specifically, and the relationship of BPD abuse to Narc romantic relationships, I could have educated myself and avoided this one.  It is simply not enough to just say "avoid the bad stuff, trust your instincts, look for red flags, etc."  Abuse can be much more conniving and sinister than to be detected by that easily.  That's why it is helping me to learn about this now.

If you want to tell us about your situation, we are here to listen. Feel free, if you are up for that.

Thanks-  I'd love to talk about it more, but it's clear that this isn't the place for it.  Narc abuse can be very different from BPD abuse and it is just too damn hard to explain it to people that haven't been through it.  I'm gonna leave this topic alone and stick to Narc support forums for this one instead.  Just wanted to drop a warning out there for others.

-Greg

[Notwendy]

Greg, I agree that some people are masters of deception. I know a couple. One of my friends fell for one, and got hurt in the relationship. I have seen this man in action. Fortunately, being married, ( not that this stops them) I was not on his radar- also probably since he knew his ex was my friend. He is good- really good- at being Mr. Charming. I don't know if he is actually evil, or more motivated by his own quest for gratification. I don't pride myself for knowing this about him- if my friend fell for someone like him, I probably would have too in different circumstances.

I have also found myself in relationships that did not go well. Maybe we can not know about people who are good enough at this to probably not be detected by anyone. Anyone can fall for someone in a relationship. What is our issue?

I think our issue ( those people who are more vulnerable to getting into this) is that we stay in them longer than we should.

It's about boundaries. Someone with good boundaries and awareness of their own feelings might also fall for the romance. But at some point, the NPD/BPD crosses a boundary- not a big one, ( that's too obvious) but a smaller one. We may feel hurt or uncomfortable when this happens- and we either don't recognize this, or ignore it. Why? Maybe this is something we grew up with, it feels "normal" to us. Or we are so afraid of abandonment we don't want to let go, or we are attracted to people who aren't capable of being there for us emotionally because we had parents who could not do this either. Whatever it is though, this is our issue to work on, not the NPD's.

I also read something interesting on boundaries- they can be too weak or too strong- and either way these can lead us to dysfunctional relationships. Someone with healthy boundaries doesn't feel comfortable around people with dysfunctional boundaries. They will likely let that relationship go after a few dates. If our boundaries are too weak, we can attract people who are not good for us. If our boundaries are too strong- someone with healthy boundaries will sense our not being available emotionally and not remain attracted to us- but someone who ignores boundaries will be attracted to us because they don't respect boundaries.

I agree that whoever you were with was likely very good at hiding red flags. I think we are capable of seeing the big red flags. I propose that somewhere along the way of your relationship that there were smaller ones that you didn't see or ignored. It isn't that you fell for her, but that the relationship progressed despite them. This isn't blaming you- it's identifying why you- and all of us who have experienced this- were the other part of these kinds of relationships.