She doesn't want me to see therapist

[Lucky Jim]

Hey oz,

Agree w/FF:

I think you understand about the "discussion" you had with her.  She got what she was after... .

It sounds like you "lost it" last night.  In other words, she succeeded in drawing you into the arena and bringing you down to her level, which is usually a No-Win situation for us Nons.  Suggest you try to stay centered, above the fray.  Adding fuel to the fire only results in a conflagration, right?

LJ

[Red5]

I've done good today, I haven't engaged or replied to any of the BS texts or memes she's sending me, .

"If someone corrects you, and you feel offended, then you have an ego problem... . 

Sometimes a well place eye roll, and an "oh brother" is the best way to go, .disordered is disordered, ignore ignore ignore ignore, .don't fall for the bravo sierra, .and the "gotcha moment".

And then there is the straight up eye contact response, with a few seconds of blissful silence, followed with the sharp off the tongue response "really dear" (put your hands on your hips when you say this, or else cross your arms)... .and then the DEEP belly laugh, followed by the loud and obnoxious knee slap laugh, and then walk away, still laughing... .and then playfully insert, "you crack me up"... ."Wow you are a friggen comedian", ."YOU could make Mr. Sigmund Freud himself have a dog gone nervous breakdown"... ."you should do this act professionally"... .(keep walking away).

When I was on instructor duty, there was a rule, .ALWAYS keep the students guessing, "is he crazy or not, this guy, .you NEVER know where is coming from"... ."don't ever let your guard down around Staff Sergeant XXX"... .

When I am getting the treatment, I either ignore it, or I disarm her with oblique sarcasm, and steal as much thunder as I can, .and then leave the area post haste !

Basically, ALWAYS show strength, thick skin, untouchable psychological demeanor... .hang tough Oz,

Red5,

[Radcliff]

Oz,

You've been quiet for a while.  How are you doing?

WW

[ozmatoz]

Hey WW!  Been struggling.  Work is insane, home life very painful.  Been on reading but zero energy to write, and frankly I'm at a loss for words lately. She went away with friends Friday and Saturday.  I woke up Friday and Saturday morning to just me and the girls in the house.  Man, I was bouncing around with so much energy on Friday that my employees were laughing at me.  Saturday was great, made them waffles and ran a million errands... .Once uBPDw got home the depression sank back in.  That awful stuck feeling.  I could recycle, sure, her actions kind of hint at it.  I don't want to, I haven't wanted to.  I know whats waiting for me if I do it again.  Yet I have been so lonely, and so devoid of love/validation that I'm really terrified of letting the FOG role back in.

I know that as I detach I'm probably not being the best at communication with her and that feeds the monster.  I'm struggling with trying to be the best me and I know I'm failing a bit which has me stuck in my own FOG, then when she "reminds" me of my shortcomings I give them too much weight. 

I'm afraid of not having enough of myself available to push through this and do what I know needs to be done.

I've been keeping tabs on your story, sounds like you still have your hands full, best of luck!
-Oz

[Radcliff]

Oz,

Glad to hear from you!  I can totally relate to having that energy when I could just peacefully exist with my daughters.  Heck, even the lady that cuts my hair noticed the energy I had when my wife was away one time!  Yes, there's a message there.

One thing that I think I could have done better at over the last couple of years was be more honest with my wife about how badly things were working for me.  To tell my wife that I couldn't continue unless things got better.  I was honestly too afraid of the consequences that she'd bring down, and just tried to keep the peace, even as I was detaching.  How honest are you being with your wife?  And not just once, but consistently so she can hear the message?  Is there any chance that if you are honest and consistent, she might make some changes?  Either way, from my experience, I'm thinking that even if you take heat for it, making sure you're honest with her will help with your feeling of integrity and how you feel about yourself if there ever is a split.

WW

[ozmatoz]

How honest are you being with your wife?  And not just once, but consistently so she can hear the message?  Is there any chance that if you are honest and consistent, she might make some changes? 

First I'd have to be able to consistently talk to her.  Keep in mind I've been painted black for 3 years now.  I've tried being honest with her and it is always turned around on me.  Still, can't get a word in about her needing to change, or seek help.  Continues to believe I set her up to be arrested for DV, still tells me she can't begin to heal until I make massive changes.

I just don't want to be with her and this nonsense anymore, and she at times mirrors that back.  Yet when she asks to have "logical" discussions surrounding custody/finances they are anything but "logical".  So round and round I go.  She's so unpredictable that I have to fear the worst (which from what I can gather would be horrifying and destructive for everyone).  My choice? Suffer rage, blame, loveless, marriage devoid of any intimacy or complete destruction of everyone's well being.  Its easy to see why the depression is setting back in.

[formflier]

Oz,

Do you see nuance or a grand canyon between trying to convince her to get help and convincing her that you won't deal with BPD anymore?

What I see is two people pointing at each other and making the point over and over and over and over and over and over... .(get the point) that it's you and it's NOT me.

As opposed to saying... "This r/s is not working I am making changes, I would appreciate it if you would make changes as well."  And then YOU make changes, regardless.

FF

[PeteWitsend]

... .  She's so unpredictable that I have to fear the worst (which from what I can gather would be horrifying and destructive for everyone).  My choice? Suffer rage, blame, loveless, marriage devoid of any intimacy or complete destruction of everyone's well being.  Its easy to see why the depression is setting back in.

Oz... .I'm a little late to this discussion, but I've read and commented on your posts before.  You have a pretty dang rough situation - no two ways about it.

one thing about your comment I quoted above that's concerning is that you seem to be held hostage by these threats. 

To get yourself out of that funk, I'd suggest taking some time to think through just what she could or would do that you consider "the worst" and think about what you could do to counter it.

take some precautions to this end... .get a voice recorder that goes in your pocket.  take snapshots of finances and spending.  get in the habit of surreptitiously recording more information about what when on, who said and did what, etc., so you have a story to counter hers with.  And try to reduce more of these key or critical discussions to writing, so she can't lie and spin it into something worse.

Here's one thing that helped me reduce stress in my own experience, about things ending:

- wife had been raging off and on about some personal heirlooms and knick knacks I was holding on to, calling this "creepy" and "weird."  stuff like my old HS varsity letters, college momentos, Grandpa's Bluejacket manual from his navy days, old family pics, etc.  I discovered my wife was quietly tossing things without telling me.  actually she only threw out some old t-shirts I liked, and then of course denied it.  anyway, I found and paid for a personal storage unit near my home, moved all my personal stuff into it, and rented it using my work address so nothing goes to my home, and pay cash every month.  or you can get a PO box.  I put a few trusted friends and family on the lease, and let them know where it is, in case something happened to me, so they could keep it until my oldest goes to college. 

I also put my "bug out bag" there.

 I found that just doing all this helped me relax a bit.  once and a while, when I get a sec, I go by there, look at my things, and chill out.  It's kinda like a moment to remind myself I am not defined solely as her husband.  I'm an individual who had a life before that, and could have one again after it.

[ozmatoz]

I do see your point!  Thanks FF

I am making changes, I am staying in therapy.  Keeping D16 in T, working on getting D11 comfortable with it too.  I'm going again tonight, and you guessed it... .she's raging on me that I should have decided to meet her for a drink after work to help her buy valentine's gifts for the kids instead.  This of course is after a day of negative attacks and bullying.  I just simply replied I don't want to have a drink with her when she's angry and attacking me.

Of course this also would have required me to use the crystal ball she believes I have in my back pocket.

Part of the problem is that when I make changes and step away from the BPD even that is turned on me saying that I no longer make any efforts to be part of the marriage anymore.  The marriage she wants is full BPD.

Pete, thank you for chiming in!  I hope you are hanging in there.  I think the worst she could do is get me fired from my job... and as the provider of health insurance and pretty much everything in my name it would really hurt the family and financially ruin me at this point.  Pretty hard to guard against her, she can be scarily vindictive.  I'm fortunate enough that I have my parents condo available to me (20 minutes away).  All my autographs and memorabilia is already over there as well as about a weeks worth of clothes.  It is nice knowing I have a spot to bug out too, but when I have done it before it comes at a cost to my kids.  This makes me hesitant to go again without some legal precedence.  Good for you for getting prepared.  Thank you for sharing.

-Oz

[formflier]

  I just simply replied I don't want to have a drink with her when she's angry and attacking me.

 

I would suggest adding that you are disappointed today didn't work out and offer to schedule a date for later.  Very matter of factly... .

FF

[Radcliff]

Oz,

Would you say that your personal strength is trending upward or downward over the last month?

Would you say the strength of your position at work is trending upward or downward over the last month?

WW

[AskingWhy]

Seeing a therapist is a personal decision.  No one has to give you permission to go.

Control issues are big with pwBPD.

[Lucky Jim]

Seeing a therapist is a personal decision.  No one has to give you permission to go.
Control issues are big with pwBPD.

Hey Oz, Concur w/AskingWhy.  As I've said before, you're the Captain of your own ship, so do what you need to do for yourself.

LuckyJim

[ozmatoz]

Thanks, I know I'm the captain but I do need reminders from time to time.  Its becoming clear that the only way that is going to work is her way and I know I cannot survive full BPD any longer.  She tore into me last night and started screaming about lies that I know for a fact are true, she ripped into me about financials where I have statements in black and white and she still says they're not true... .

She screamed about seeing a T every week means that I'm crazy and she doesnt want me. I JADED but I just couldn't let it go.  I had to remind her that 1: I only go every 2-3 weeks and the 2: D16 goes every week and asked her if she believed D16 was crazy?  Her reply was that I need to see a P for meds instead because I'm clearly in trouble.  I asked her about seeing a T and she laughed it off manically and said the only thing wrong in her life was me.

Her behavior is just awful and the fact that she hasn't contributed any money to the family since September is giving me some heartache.

To WW point I would say my personal strength has been decreasing in part because the financial side of things are getting really tight.
I don't know if that is part of her plan, to use her money as a wedge to control me or if she's just really lost reality.

According to her I should be paying her a salary for all she does around the house, and since I don't she gets to keep all of her money that she works for without contributing a dime, and still freely spends my money.  I've asked her repeatedly to contribute and she just tells me to get a court order.  I can't get into the BPD head to figure out the end game here.  I know the real end game is increased financial stress, hits to my credit history, and eventually bankruptcy if something drastic doesn't happen.  I don't think she can see this, or if she does and thats the point of it... .wow that really says something about her.

I know I JADED a lot last night, but I think I may have done it on purpose.  I think she had been pretty quiet over the last few days and I felt myself slipping a bit into the FOG.  I needed to stand my ground a little and I needed a stark reminder of how close the BPD simmers below the surface and that despite the work I'm doing on myself and attempting the tools, nothing has changed on her end.

As far as work goes, I'm still under scrutiny but they've given me lead on a couple of big items.  I think if I can get to the office on time in the morning for the next month or so and not screw up these projects I'll be on more stable ground.  I know uBPDw wants to disrupt this area of my life as well.  She'd like me to find magical work in an all male corporation that pays $250k/year and lets me work from home 4 out of 5 days a week.

I can use the tools to try to keep things from exploding and managing emotions from time to time, but her vision of what I should be making our marriage to be is so far out of touch with reality that I cannot see a way to bring any resolution to this.

[Red5]

Oz,

You've been quiet for a while.  How are you doing?

WW

Hey Oz, and to echo Wentworth, how are you doing, hope you are managing alright.

AskingWhy wrote, Seeing a therapist is a personal decision.  No one has to give you permission to go.
Control issues are big with pwBPD.

Yes, absolutely, control control control control !... .I have read that anytime your partner/sig other tries to "control" any access to a therapist, or counselor, and then wants to know everything that was discussed, and then proceeds to dissect it all, and use the harvested information to further hurt (abuse)... well that is abuse in of itself.

Like digging through your phone and then giving you the third degree over x/y/z & 1234, or reading your emails, or tracking your social media.

ALL bad news when you live with a pw/BPD(u?)

... .one may say, "but I've nothing to hide"... .but snooping is snooping, and I don't do it to my u/BPDw... .it irritates me to no end... .

Yes, .all classified as a forms of abuse.

Keep us posted Oz, .as I too know; it helps me immensely to be able to come here and vent, .but I have to be in a secure area (work mostly)... .as my u/BPDw controls all my time when I am home, and Lord knows what she would do, say, and think if she ever knew of my activities here.

Glad to hear from you again,

p.s. ~ apparently I am a hoarder, so all my life collections are now out in the shed /attic in our back yard, safely stowed away in "man town"... .away from u/BPDw's efforts to subjugate, and eliminate  !

Red5

[Lucky Jim]

I can use the tools to try to keep things from exploding and managing emotions from time to time, but her vision of what I should be making our marriage to be is so far out of touch with reality that I cannot see a way to bring any resolution to this.

Hey Oz, You're right; you can't go on like this indefinitely.  What are your gut feelings?  What would you like to see happen?  At the end of the day, it's about your happiness, right?

LuckyJim

[Red5]

To WW point I would say my personal strength has been decreasing in part because the financial side of things are getting really tight.

I don't know if that is part of her plan, to use her money as a wedge to control me or if she's just really lost reality.

I can't get into the BPD head to figure out the end game here.  I know the real end game is increased financial stress, hits to my credit history, and eventually bankruptcy if something drastic doesn't happen.  I don't think she can see this, or if she does and thats the point of it... .wow that really says something about her.

I needed to stand my ground a little and I needed a stark reminder of how close the BPD simmers below the surface and that despite the work I'm doing on myself and attempting the tools, nothing has changed on her end.

I can use the tools to try to keep things from exploding and managing emotions from time to time, but her vision of what I should be making our marriage to be is so far out of touch with reality that I cannot see a way to bring any resolution to this.

Hey Oz,

I can certainly relate to what you wrote above, .remember a post a while back on what it would take to make one leave the r/s... .the "last straw" as it were... .one of mine was financial sabotage, and the willful intent to do it... .yeah, if s/o ever tried to make us homeless, and ruin everything I have worked so hard to build, and thus be able to provide for my family, & children (sustained)... .that would probably be it for me.

Life continues to be tentative, and tenuous for me too... .never know what may happen next, my u/BPDw has been talking to her own (foo) mother again, so I have to watch close to see if she has been triggered over something, .lots of drama over in her (foo) family currently, more than usual... .tools tools tools... .know them, use them !

Even then sometimes it all caves in on me 

Someone wrote on another post about when BPDw leaves for a few days... .and how free he felt, was able to accomplish things, catch up, and "clear the decks"... .boy oh' boy, that's me too... .seems I come alive when I am not around u/BPDw... .I become happy, creative, and "nurturing" to others as well as myself... .what does that say ?

Hang tough Oz, we are listening, and you ain't alone Brother !

Red5

 

[Red5]

At the end of the day, it's about your happiness, right?

LuckyJim

I add, ."happiness" = "survival" ! (?)

Thoughts ?

Red5

[GaGrl]

Several men who post here have had severe financial stress.  FF finally had to separate his finances so that his wife had no access to his income.  He provides as needed, but she can't simply go into the account and spend it as she pleases.  She has her own income, and he has nothing to do with her activity on her own account.

If your wife has not contributed to the household finances since September, and it is putting you into financial stress, you might be at the point of opening your own account and redirecting your direct deposit to the new account.  You can then use the joint account as you choose -- you can deposit, you can say that you will deposit an equal amount to what your wife deposits, etc.

I forget -- does she work?

Should you file for divorce before she does, your lawyer will begin by asking for financial information.  A request will be made to her/her lawyer for financial disclosure.  If she has an account to which she is directing her money, she will be obligated to disclose it.  If you get to a point of a deposition, she will be asked why she has not contributed her financial resources to the household expenses since September, and where those funds are.  False information in a deposition is grounds for perjury.

[formflier]

  She tore into me last night and started screaming about lies that I know for a fact are true, 

How long did this go on?

Did you attempt any sort of boundary enforcement?

FF

[formflier]

  FF finally had to separate his finances so that his wife had no access to his income.  

Well... .she has access... .she understands that talking to me nicely has the option of opening up my wallet.

Consistent boundary enforcement has clarified her understanding that my walled NEVER opens under threat or disrespect.

I can't understand why (I kinda do in an intellectual way) it took this for my wife to "get nice" about money.  And she does contribute to a few things here and there... .buys some groceries.  It's not something we focus on.

The couple of times she has asked for something... .it has been pretty "formal".  She asked nicely, I thought about it  and said ok, she said thank you... .I said you are welcome... .and the thing or event was enjoyed.

FF

[GaGrl]

Right, FF -- you have created a way to have a civil conversation about it!

ozmatoz, my DH is a financial advisor.  In the best of marriages, when clients ask, he recommends a financial structure of His/Hers/Ours accounts, with direct deposit for each partner's funds going into the sole account, then a joint account for household or other (children's expenses, etc.) with funds being transferred from each partner based on agreements (or in FF's case, a civil conversation!).

 

[ozmatoz]

Wow, thank you everyone for checking in with me, I'm really feeling on edge and its comforting to have a place to drop some questions and get a reality check.

LJ, yes it is about my happiness but at what cost to my children's happiness?  uBPDw cannot see that her actions to control and punish me actually hurts the family she "claims" she's trying to save.  I think Red5 may be on target at the moment that I feel like I'm in survival mode.  I cling to hope that happiness comes later.

Red5 thanks for using the word sabotage.  It helped put this in perspective for me.  That really is what it is.  Regardless of whether or not she can comprehend or realize it, she's going to sink the ship she's riding in.  Throw in the fact that she harasses me over seeing a T?  That is just plain cruel.   She did go away friday and saturday.  Two mornings waking up without her in the house and ahhhhh peace.  It was grand.

FF, she raged for probably 45 minutes or so with a couple minute breaks in there.  I just let her yell.  I kind of stood there and didnt reply much.  When there seemed to be a pause I walked out and told her I would talk to her when she was calm.  She never calmed, I never talked to her again last night.

Gagrl, I would have set up something like that a long time ago, she had some money troubles and old loans that took way to long to straighten out.  Just as I got everything straight things really hit the fan and my attorney advised me to keep everything in my name just in case things went south.  They are going very south... .

I'm leaving thursday morning for a 5 day road trip with D16, I can't wish any harder to get the clock to move faster!

[formflier]

FF, she raged for probably 45 minutes or so with a couple minute breaks in there.  I just let her yell.  I kind of stood there and didnt reply much.  When there seemed to be a pause I walked out and told her I would talk to her when she was calm.  She never calmed, I never talked to her again last night.
 

This is why you feel the way you do... .that much yelling just wears a person down. 

5 minutes... .that's all you've got to turn the conversation.  Use a stopwatch if you want.

"I'm not going to have this conversation now."

"Stop this conversation now."

walk out

Please don't focus much on the words, the matter little compared to you actually taking your ears somewhere else.  Perhaps check back in 10 min. 

This will be an earth shattering change in your life and your relationship.  No more yelling.  Completely under your control.

OK... .I get it... .drastically reduced yelling.   Eventually there may be no more.

I rarely exit anymore.  In fact, my wife is the one that has exited lately.  Which is ... interesting.  She will kinda say something about my motivations or something and leave. 

"Since you aren't going to listen to me anyway... .I'm leaving"  or something like that.

I ask later in a friendly way if she wants to talk.  Sometimes she does.

FF

[Radcliff]

Oz, enjoy the trip with D16, that sounds fantastic!

I was already composing my response in my head when I saw that formflier beat me to it.  Instead of just saying she needs to calm down (which will get her more upset) and then leaving (which will make her feel abandoned and stew about it), say you need to take a break for 5 minutes.  It's about you, not about her.  Don't make her feel like you're trying to control her.  Then come back.  Then 10 minutes, then come back.  She'll see the pattern.  She'll see if she wants you to stay, she has to be calm.  Don't just sit there and take it.  That way she doesn't have to be calm, and you stay.  Can you see how fundamentally different what formflier and I are proposing is?

WW

[formflier]

And... .WW and I are basing our recommendations on two fundamental truths.

1.  There is a limited ability for a pwBPD to manage their emotions. 

2.  They really want you to stick around, on a fundamental level.


I get it number 2 can be hard to understand, if they want you why would they propose divorce and other r/s doom so often?  It is perplexing.  Yet... .if they want you divorced... .why aren't you divorced yet? 

It is reading tea leaves, but watching the pattens of your relationship is very similar to patterns in my r/s.  How can that be, unless there is a common bond that "connects" the pwBPD.

FF

[ozmatoz]

1.  There is a limited ability for a pwBPD to manage their emotions. 

I usually don't let the argument go for that long, neither does she.  I usually exit, she calms for a bit then finds me wherever I am in the house and starts up again.  I try to move to another part of the house... repeat repeat.  Is it ok that I'm finding out that I'm just not cut out to "gray rock" all the time?

2.  They really want you to stick around, on a fundamental level.


I get it number 2 can be hard to understand, if they want you why would they propose divorce and other r/s doom so often?  It is perplexing.  Yet... .if they want you divorced... .why aren't you divorced yet? 

This part really gets to me.  This is the part that has pushed me to the brink of divorce over and over and I'm staring it in the face.  I have a call with my lawyer this afternoon... .yes that call.

I find myself crumbling.  I didn't want my life to be like this, nor to have a marriage end like this.  I have to keep my sadness from clouding the facts that its not my wife I'm sad about, its the situation.

[Lucky Jim]

I usually exit, she calms for a bit then finds me wherever I am in the house and starts up again.  I try to move to another part of the house... repeat repeat.

Hey Oz, I get it.  Like you, I frequently played "hide and seek" w/my Ex.  She wouldn't let me sleep and would keep me up all night chasing me around the house.  It was abusive; sleep deprivation, like isolation, is a technique for breaking someone down.  Once, during the Summertime, I slept on a lawn chair outside in my backyard because at least the neighbors would see her raging if she decided to pursue.  It's not fun.  I spent many a night at the local motel.  I'm with you, friend.

LuckyJim

[formflier]

Oz,

I wish you would be at the point of saing... .I never let it go more than 5 minutes.  When she "finds" you somewhere else, no reason to let it go 30 seconds.  I would be proactive... .let her know that you will or won't talk about and end the interaction.

The "intermittent reinforcement" is emboldening her. 

Perhaps let her chase you once, then lock door and/or involve authorities. 

FF
 

[Radcliff]

I usually exit, she calms for a bit then finds me wherever I am in the house and starts up again. 

Exactly, this is consistent with what FF and I are saying, just an additional facet of it.  She is being rewarded for coming after you.  If she calms and will be coming after you in 6 minutes, you head back to her in 5 minutes, so she know's you're coming back.  Keep thinking about behaviors and rewards.  If you get back to her before she comes after you, you're rewarding her for not chasing you, and if she's calm and you stay, you're rewarding her for calming down.  You can even give her some enthusiasm and warmth, saying that you are glad you can spend some time with her.

I am again reminded of this parenting book my therapist is having me read, "Transforming the Difficult Child:  The Nurtured Heart Approach."  Basically, it talks about filling your time with the difficult person with neutral or positive comments, and not giving them any negative attention for misbehaviors, just boundary enforcement.  They have to learn not just that negative behaviors aren't rewarded, but they have to have positive behavior to go to.  And you have to really work hard to give them neutral to positive attention.  You don't have to wait until they do something good, you can actually reward the absence of bad behavior.  For example, if D12 is sitting on the couch doing nothing, I can say, "Hey, I really appreciate how you're being respectful this afternoon."  I'm fabricating a success for her.  I don't have to wait until that rare moment when she does something very nice.  This really works.  The neutral comments are especially helpful in the beginning when someone is suspicious about compliments.  You simply make an irrefutable statement with no judgement, like "I see you're wearing the red shirt today."  That gives them attention.  I know, with a pwBPD, even a neutral statement can be twisted -- that technique might take some extra work to adapt

WW