I am struggling with our oldest child. He's been acting defiant

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Honestly, I'm not sure anymore.  I'm in a state of mind where I honestly do not give a F.  I lied about a Christmas card.  He went to the store and grabbed some crappy cards that he kept saying cost $5 when they where only $2.50.  I wanted something nicer so I went to the store and grabbed a different card for my parents.  Had more writing and was something more like I would had gotten.  I switched out the cards but accidentally left the one he got under my jacket on the bed.  He found it, asked what the heck is this?  I panicked and went into cover up mode (yes I know I dug even deeper when trying to lie and cover it up, when I should had taken a breath, paused and told him the truth).  I didn't and I know that I should have.  He gets angry for me of course lying straight to his face.  Understandably he was upset.  He went to take a shower.  I knocked on the door and told him I was really sorry for lying about the card.  I didn't want to hurt his feelings thinking the card he got wasn't good enough, I just wanted one with a little more writing.  He came out later and was still mad.  I was okay with it because I did lie and then tried really bad to cover it up.  I gave him his space for the day and thought tomorrow would be a little better.

I of course was wrong.  Yesterday was bad.  He was in a bad mood when he woke up and I just chalked it up to he was still mad about yesterday.  I didn't push, I gave him space.  He asked me to go to the DMV with him to get an updated license.  I thought, that he wants to spend some time with me. He was kind of up and down the whole time when we were running errands.  Slight road rage.  Then he started taking jabs at me.  Saying is everyone out there was as stupid as I was, etc.  We stopped a couple places, went to the dmv, and then stopped off at the Seawall so he could make a couple calls.  Then, he let me have it.  Screaming, yelling, cursing, calling me scum of the earth, saying that human decency don't apply to me because I'm a chronic liar, everything that comes out of my mouth is a lie, he warned me if I lie than I was going to have at least a week of this.  Anyways, you get the picture.

Me right now... I do not give one iota about fixing this.  I have no desire to not JADE, emphasize, SET, try to read between the lines, try to tell him that I'm working on it, blah blah.  The whole time he raged at me in the car, I didn't say a single word. I do not care if that was the right response or if I should of done this or that.  I couldn't leave the car because it was raining and cold outside.  So I just sat there looking forward.  Even when he basically accused me of cheating when someone called my phone with the wrong number.  Said that was my code. 

I am angry, hurt, furious.  I'm not going to go into detail about everything he said, but it had the same affect as shoving me out the door and saying "this is your punishment for lying, you get to stay out in the cold". 

I appreciate any tips or advice or suggestions, but the honest way I'm feeling, I don't want to talk to him, I don't want to be around him, I don't even want to see him.  That is how angry and hurt I am.  I didn't do any of this with any malice thoughts, I just didn't like the card he got.  To reiterate, I know I handled the situation wrong, I know I should have told the truth right away, but I didn't.  I made a mistake which according to him, I'm not allowed to do.  So F it.

[Frankee]

Honestly, I'm not sure anymore.  I'm in a state of mind where I honestly do not give a F.  I lied about a Christmas card.  He went to the store and grabbed some crappy cards that he kept saying cost $5 when they where only $2.50.  I wanted something nicer so I went to the store and grabbed a different card for my parents.  Had more writing and was something more like I would had gotten.  I switched out the cards but accidentally left the one he got under my jacket on the bed.  He found it, asked what the heck is this?  I panicked and went into cover up mode (yes I know I dug even deeper when trying to lie and cover it up, when I should had taken a breath, paused and told him the truth).  I didn't and I know that I should have.  He gets angry for me of course lying straight to his face.  Understandably he was upset.  He went to take a shower.  I knocked on the door and told him I was really sorry for lying about the card.  I didn't want to hurt his feelings thinking the card he got wasn't good enough, I just wanted one with a little more writing.  He came out later and was still mad.  I was okay with it because I did lie and then tried really bad to cover it up.  I gave him his space for the day and thought tomorrow would be a little better.

I of course was wrong.  Yesterday was bad.  He was in a bad mood when he woke up and I just chalked it up to he was still mad about yesterday.  I didn't push, I gave him space.  He asked me to go to the DMV with him to get an updated license.  I thought, that he wants to spend some time with me. He was kind of up and down the whole time when we were running errands.  Slight road rage.  Then he started taking jabs at me.  Saying is everyone out there was as stupid as I was, etc.  We stopped a couple places, went to the dmv, and then stopped off at the Seawall so he could make a couple calls.  Then, he let me have it.  Screaming, yelling, cursing, calling me scum of the earth, saying that human decency don't apply to me because I'm a chronic liar, everything that comes out of my mouth is a lie, he warned me if I lie than I was going to have at least a week of this.  Anyways, you get the picture.

Me right now... I do not give one iota about fixing this.  I have no desire to not JADE, emphasize, SET, try to read between the lines, try to tell him that I'm working on it, blah blah.  The whole time he raged at me in the car, I didn't say a single word. I do not care if that was the right response or if I should of done this or that.  I couldn't leave the car because it was raining and cold outside.  So I just sat there looking forward.  Even when he basically accused me of cheating when someone called my phone with the wrong number.  Said that was my code. 

I am angry, hurt, furious.  I'm not going to go into detail about everything he said, but it had the same affect as shoving me out the door and saying "this is your punishment for lying, you get to stay out in the cold". 

I appreciate any tips or advice or suggestions, but the honest way I'm feeling, I don't want to talk to him, I don't want to be around him, I don't even want to see him.  That is how angry and hurt I am.  I didn't do any of this with any malice thoughts, I just didn't like the card he got.  To reiterate, I know I handled the situation wrong, I know I should have told the truth right away, but I didn't.  I made a mistake which according to him, I'm not allowed to do.  So F it.

[Frankee]

I forgot to add.  He finally makes a snide comment about lets go home so you can pretend nothing happened and go to sleep.  When we get home, he acts like nothing happened.  Goes about it a completely fine mood.  Snapped a couple times when our toddler was crying and I couldn't pick him up because I was cooking.  Then tried a couple times to pick him up, but our toddler refused and only wanted me to hold him.  Then later when I'm trying wash my hands, he starts crying again, so my H comes over and plays peek a boo between my legs trying to get him to stop crying.  Then he picks him up and says mommy can't hold you all the time buddy.  Then he wanted me and he was all nice about it and said here's your mommy.

He's putting on this whole facade for his brothers and our toddler when he literally tried to throw my self confidence and dignity in the garbage not even 30 minutes before.

[patientandclear]

There’s a cycle here of him behaving better or apologizing or saying he will work on his rage so your child doesn’t learn destructive ways ... .then raging again. Then he subsides and is more pleasant for a while, and you re-invest in trying some more ... .

I’m sure he feels legitimized by the lying, so let’s take a look at that. I really, really think it would be beneficial for you to pay attention to WHY you do feel compelled to conceal some information from him. Wishing that impulse away isnt going to resolve the dynamic for you. Your being is responding to an instinct to conceal or not be truthful with him that comes from somewhere. What is it coming from? What is it that you think will happen if you tell the truth? Where does that expectation come from?

[Frankee]

I really, really think it would be beneficial for you to pay attention to WHY you do feel compelled to conceal some information from him. Wishing that impulse away isnt going to resolve the dynamic for you. Your being is responding to an instinct to conceal or not be truthful with him that comes from somewhere. What is it coming from? What is it that you think will happen if you tell the truth? Where does that expectation come from?

Find myself in a catch 22.  Almost like old habits die hard.  I am afraid he will get angry if I tell the truth on certain things.  Call me stupid, forgetful, irresponsible, moron... Mostly referring to if I forget to pay a bill, do something he asked me and t didn't, etc.
I think sometimes lying can buy me time to do the task and be none the wiser.  The stupid thing with the Christmas card I don't even know why I made a pathetic attempt to lie.  I was half asleep and was prepared for him finding the card he had bought.  Think that was panic self preservation mode.
When I think he is going to be mad with the truthful answer, I fudge.  Afraid of the repercussions.  From past experience.

[formflier]

He's putting on this whole facade for his brothers and our toddler when he literally tried to throw my self confidence and dignity in the garbage not even 30 minutes before.

It may seem "calculating", but it's probably not.  Remember... .pwBPDs feelings change so rapidly.  He is likely "reacting" to positive feelings and really doesn't "remember" ripping you to shreds 30 minutes earlier.

Note:  "Reminding" him of wrongdoing isn't going to help either... .

This is a frustrating (to say the least) part of a r/s with a pwBPD.

"Bending" the truth.  Lying. 

Not good for any relationship.  Early on my wife accused me of lying about things (usually women) and unfortunately I "validated" her view by lying about trivial things.

So... .in my haste to answer, I might say "I don't know anything about xyz... "  She would find out about xyz... .find out I "bent the truth"... .and it would set her off.  I would JADE... .she would continue to rage.

The reality was... .I was scared.  I needed to own that.

"I'm not comfortable answering that question right now... ."   Yep... it would set her off... .but it was "honest".  And, over time, me "owning" my part did help calm things.

FF

[Frankee]

It may seem "calculating", but it's probably not.  Remember... .pwBPDs feelings change so rapidly.  He is likely "reacting" to positive feelings and really doesn't "remember" ripping you to shreds 30 minutes earlier.

Note:  "Reminding" him of wrongdoing isn't going to help either... .

This is a frustrating (to say the least) part of a r/s with a pwBPD.

I just get so damn mad that we seem to be on different sides of the spectrum.  Last night he acted like nothing happened.  Talking to me normally, didn't even get mad when I told him I couldn't find a Wal mart gift card that had a few dollars on it.  Yes, it's less than ten dollars, but I know it's the principle that he said something about it and I didn't put it up right away.

I mean, so what?  Am I supposed to just file away all the vile or very cruel things he said?  I know what he's doing, he's behavior training me.  He even told me.  "I told you that every time you lie, this is what you get, you will have at least a week to deal with this".  I know, lying is bad and I shouldn't do it.  I've never been 100% honest with anybody and I'm trying hard to stop.

Not good for any relationship.  Early on my wife accused me of lying about things (usually women) and unfortunately I "validated" her view by lying about trivial things.

So... .in my haste to answer, I might say "I don't know anything about xyz... "  She would find out about xyz... .find out I "bent the truth"... .and it would set her off.  I would JADE... .she would continue to rage.

Would set her off... .but it was "honest".  And, over time, me "owning" my part did help calm things.

I agree.  I totally handled the Christmas card situation really poorly.  I didn't stop to think about anything and just did the ingrained reaction.  I know he hates liars.  I know he has trust issues with people in general.  My H is like that.  He said that if I lie about stupid trivial stuff that doesn't even matter, then that means I will lie about bigger stuff i.e. cheating.

He's been taking jabs every now and then, but he's not treating me like a hostile invader anymore.  I really want to take this in stride and see that at least we are on decent terms.  I will accept the blame for lying and causing a reaction.  Yes I should be able to detach, not take it personally, etc.  We are all humans.  What worries me is I am one of those people that I will take a lot of crap.  You can keep pushing and pushing, but once I snap, it's extremely hard for me to come back from it.  I'm glad he's not raging or treating me worthless crap, but I'm having difficulty getting past the distance and smoldering resentment I'm feeling towards him.  Then he will get angry at me for acting this way when I'm the one to blame for all of this. 

What's even more frustrating is wondering if I should even take full blame for all of this because I lied (didn't evn try very hard and was obviously lying) and I know he hates liars and reacts this way when I do lie.

[patientandclear]

You shouldn’t lie, you know that, that’s valid and important.

But equally valid and important is that you are anticipating being treated poorly by him if you tell the truth. That is a piece of the dysfunction that he created.

If you succeed in ruling out dealing with that through lying/avoidance, then you have to squarely engage the fact that this man sometimes reacts in ways that hurt you badly and that he creates fear in you.

One way you can try to deal with that is to care less. I think the feelings you are struggling with right now are a good indicator that that doesn’t work for you. My own view is that “care less/de-personalize” is a survival strategy but not a particularly viable one (in that harm and damage seep through despite best efforts not to care/take the abuse on board), and also, isn’t a road to a strong satisfying intimate connection with another person.

The other strategy is to honor that you do care (and are right to care), and use boundaries to make it less and less possible for the relationship to proceed with this kind of abuse as a feature of it. He then will have choices—to learn other practices, which is hard, or to continue to resort to his current coping strategies, and lose access to you that he desires.

[sweetheart]

There are changes to make always on both sides of a relationship in order to reduce the conflict and dysfunction.

So in answer to your question about whether you should 'take all the blame' another way to think about it is, that by making it about blame, we quickly find ourselves in victim mode, feeling sorry for ourselves, keeping hold of our righteous indignation and doing a lot of harrumphing.

If it's not about taking blame, then what is it about? it's about changing existing hard wired patterns of responding to our pwBPD's different version of events or ways of doing things in order to reduce conflict.

Stepping firmly out of your victim role where your 'smouldering resentment' would be oh so easily fired up into similar and always escalating spats will help YOU move forward, and each time you don't enter into the conflict it will get easier. The link on looking in the mirror can be a helpful place to start https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/03.htm

Yes you lied, don't lie again, let it go.
How often do these types of conflicts happen between you and your husband?

[Frankee]

If it's not about taking blame, then what is it about? it's about changing existing hard wired patterns of responding to our pwBPD's different version of events or ways of doing things in order to reduce conflict.

Yes you lied, don't lie again, let it go.
How often do these types of conflicts happen between you and your husband?

They are actually getting fewer and farther.  I guess I'm being hard on myself deep down because I know it could have been easily avoided if I had just paused, took a breath, and told the truth out right.  I slipped.   

Think that's part of my problem.  We get in the swings where things are going fine and I forget I'm not dealing with a stable person.  What I perceive as a period of relaxation isn't it at all.  When times like this happen, usually the thought crosses my mind of what else is going on?  It gets to the feeling where my H goes these periods with out a break down or outburst, but as soon as that one thing happens where he can use that trigger as an excuse, he explodes.  Almost like the dam just burst on all pent up feelings.  I of course know that trying to talk to him about deep down emotions is pointless because he always blames whatever trigger it was at that time.

When it comes down to it, what I'm starting to struggle with is how I see more and more my plans for the future where he's not in it.  I love him deep down, I know why he is the way he is.  The problem is I keep hearing that just because he has a disorder, doesn't give him the right to be abusive the way he is.  The more and more I hear it, the more I feel detached from him every time it happens.  I've been enjoying spending less time with him. 

I'm just waiting now for him to see I'm still "broke" and not warming back up or showing him affection or initiating contact and possibly getting mad about it.  I don't feel it.  I'm not doing it on purpose or to "punish him".  It would be forced, fake, and akward.  I'm feeling stuck.  Hollow.

[sweetheart]

Have you explored Radical Acceptance, it has been a game changer for me, along with no JADEing and the power of validation?

There is an article in the files somewhere I will see if I can find a link to.

I think it might be important not to be waiting and seeing if your h notices your still 'broke' not back on form yet, as this is about perpetuating the underlying conflict.
In doing this brooding the dysfunctional dance between you both just continues. In coming here to this boards it is ultimately about changing ourselves and how we continue to do things that just aren't working.

How can you find a way to resolve how you feel, process it and move on?
It is possible to still feel upset and express that in an honest and open way with your h, whilst also accepting that it is unlikely that he is the person that is going to make you feel less broken. Only you can do that.
Sulking, and brooding is punishing him, and that is how it will feel to him. It's about finding a healthier way forward.

[Cat Familiar]

I'm seeing a pattern in your "lying" which I would more charitably characterize as "misdirecting" "attempting to not hurt his feelings" "protecting oneself" and "being evasive".

It's a pattern I, too, fell into with my BPD mother. At times, there were no truthful answers that wouldn't elicit her anger, so I tried to avoid setting her off and hoped I wouldn't be found out. Far too often, I was.

But the overall dynamic is an unequal balance of power. He's setting himself up as "interrogator" and you as "suspect". You are already presumed guilty in his mind.

I think the only way to get out of this dynamic is to avoid answering some of those questions. Not easy, as this will probably also set him off. But you need to get back on equal footing. And this is probably one of the reasons you feel resentful.

[sweetheart]

Here is the link, https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

[Frankee]

I really appreciate the feedback.  I came on here in a fit of hurt and anger.  I notice that my emotions are sometimes just as much on a swing as my H's. 

I read about the radical acceptance.  The part that says accepting that the event or situation causing you pain has a cause is a hard pill to swallow.  As much as it does suck, it makes sense.  Another thing that comes to mind which some might scoff at is Pavlov's dogs.  I feel like I'm being conditioned not to lie.  I lie, he comes unglued and very  malicious.  I tell the truth, he may be initially angry, but appreciates the truth and gets over it easier.  Problem is, I know I've broken his trust so I also have to work on getting back trust, which will probably take a long time and be a very hard road.

It makes me feel better getting the outside perspective and acually make sense.  I was so wrapped up in feeling like I just had it and was done with all of it.  I really don't feel that way overall, but I felt so wounded (playing the victim role... guilty yes).  I guess it was the things he said he stuck down deep.  I typed out a whole boohoo me, he did this and that and said mean things... I erased it all.  Found that would be playing victim again.

I think sometimes I do feel he thinks I'm guilty before asking a question.  I also find that if he asks something and the answer is no (when it's something he's mentioned or asked me to do more than once) I tend to lie.  I have had him react in a nasty manner if I say no when it's something I was supposed to do and forgot.  Back to the automatic response. 

I think if I can find my way back to that solid ground, I can start to feel back on track.  I was kind of feelings like all the progress that had been made and my confidence was thrown completely in the garbage.  It still hurts.  For some reason, he really struck my nerves this time and I'm not sure what it was about this time that really got to me.

[Harley Quinn]

Hi Frankee,

What might be useful to practise is to pause.  Just take a breath before you respond.  Give yourself a second to think.  Even maybe tell your husband this is something you're working on because you know you need to slow down a little or else you can sometimes speak without thinking and the wrong answer comes out.  He of all people should understand what it's like to say something you don't mean.  Although I wouldn't point that out... . 

It's worth bearing in mind that a pwBPD tends to be hypervigilant and extremely sensitive to emotions.  He will pick up on emotional cues and body language or 'tells' that you may not be aware of and give meaning to them.  If he dislikes lies, he's probably always looking out for them, so telling him what you think he'd rather hear isn't likely to be helpful for you.  Slowing down a little before you respond could be a good habit to develop.

Love and light x 

[formflier]

How is your relationship with your children since you have left?

FF