I guess I "saved" my relationship, but I want it less than ever

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Hi all,

I feel like I've lived a few lifetimes in the past two weeks alone... .My relationship had been teetering on the brink of extinction for the last month before that and I don't know what exactly I said or did shortly before flying home for a funeral, but I guess I "saved" it... .(?) I can't tell exactly and am too exhausted and on the verge of a cold to talk it over with him... .and he left town for a few days any way so we can't... .which is a relief, but I also know nothing has really changed and literally NOTHING is in place to make it better... .

But some recent interventions from family and friends have me leaning more toward throwing in the towel... .as hard as that would be... .I feel at times like I don't have as much say over when and how this ends... .I am just tired of the high stress levels and the way he makes drama. Ultimately it is a question of my health and well-being. I would have liked to keep at this for awhile longer, before I left, but everyone I spoke with while in the States had an influence on me one way or another and I just don't know... .But I've come back and he's so in love and... .yet he's also being controlling, which I can't stand about him... .It is totally unacceptable to me.

With another set of life circumstances I'd ask for a break from the relationship entirely so I could explore (in isolation) my feelings for him and see if I really have it in me to sign up for another tour of duty on this life, but... .It is all or nothing. If it ends I am 1000% certain (we live in separate countries) there will no going back to this - ever.

Can people explore the notion of a breakup with me? (I've never allowed myself this "luxury" because I was so committed to making it better... .now I am mostly concerned about me, though I do have concern for him too.) I have no one in regular life I can bounce this off of. How would I do it? I am scared because this isn't a "normal" relationship. I've initiated breakups before, but I can't imagine how he'd take it and that makes me nervous. I can't envision the dynamic - if he'd try to pull me back in or want to end it to. His unpredictability makes me extremely nervous.

[pearlsw]

Hi all,

I feel like I've lived a few lifetimes in the past two weeks alone... .My relationship had been teetering on the brink of extinction for the last month before that and I don't know what exactly I said or did shortly before flying home for a funeral, but I guess I "saved" it... .(?) I can't tell exactly and am too exhausted and on the verge of a cold to talk it over with him... .and he left town for a few days any way so we can't... .which is a relief, but I also know nothing has really changed and literally NOTHING is in place to make it better... .

But some recent interventions from family and friends have me leaning more toward throwing in the towel... .as hard as that would be... .I feel at times like I don't have as much say over when and how this ends... .I am just tired of the high stress levels and the way he makes drama. Ultimately it is a question of my health and well-being. I would have liked to keep at this for awhile longer, before I left, but everyone I spoke with while in the States had an influence on me one way or another and I just don't know... .But I've come back and he's so in love and... .yet he's also being controlling, which I can't stand about him... .It is totally unacceptable to me.

With another set of life circumstances I'd ask for a break from the relationship entirely so I could explore (in isolation) my feelings for him and see if I really have it in me to sign up for another tour of duty on this life, but... .It is all or nothing. If it ends I am 1000% certain (we live in separate countries) there will no going back to this - ever.

Can people explore the notion of a breakup with me? (I've never allowed myself this "luxury" because I was so committed to making it better... .now I am mostly concerned about me, though I do have concern for him too.) I have no one in regular life I can bounce this off of. How would I do it? I am scared because this isn't a "normal" relationship. I've initiated breakups before, but I can't imagine how he'd take it and that makes me nervous. I can't envision the dynamic - if he'd try to pull me back in or want to end it to. His unpredictability makes me extremely nervous.

[Lucky Jim]

I feel at times like I don't have as much say over when and how this ends...

Hey pearlsw, it's normal to fear the unknown, which could be why you feel nervous.  On the other hand, I've discovered that the unknown is also where greater happiness can be found, so don't rule out that possibility.  Why to you say that you "don't have much say" over an ending?  In my view, you call the shots for your own life, though I understand it gets murky in a BPD r/s.  Yet waiting for your pwBPD to change is likely to be a lengthy, thankless vigil.  What would you like to see happen?  What are your gut feelings?  It's all about your happiness, right?

LuckyJim

[pearlsw]

When I say "I don't have as much say over how it ends" it is because of my complicated circumstances - being overseas, the laws here, having to navigate an international divorce, lacking resources, etc.

Also, he has always positioned himself in the driver's seat about whether the relationship is on or off via his off the charts number of break up threats.

I am just now letting myself have the mental space to entertain the idea of leading a breakup instead of tolerating one more of his control tactic breakup threats. I thought last year I'd leave if I heard one more, but he is a master at flipping things around... .He makes me panic and then I automatically start to "save" things.

I can't be in this relationship at this point unless he gets some help. He forced me, over the holidays, to start contemplating a life without him in a really serious way... .and now that he is away for a few days I want to think it over a bit more... .I am not afraid to be without him in my life, my quality of life would go up, but I am afraid of how down I'll feel while I am rebuilding... .and I am afraid that the family support I had just built up is not longer possible... .my back up plan blew up over the weekend... .

[flourdust]

Safety First would be my mantra.

You know he's volatile, is controlling, and makes threats.

So, present the break-up to him as a done deal. Get your stuff packed and out of there, get yourself out of there, and then tell him... .either in a public place or via long-distance communications.

[pearlsw]

Hi flourdust,

To be clear, he makes break up threats. He hasn't made a breakup threat since before the 25th. Today he is "just" making false accusations. He is trying to make me afraid and jump to him I guess. I don't know. He's in another country, but out of his mind I guess. I am physically safe.

warmly, pearl.

[Radcliff]

I thought last year I'd leave if I heard one more, but he is a master at flipping things around... .He makes me panic and then I automatically start to "save" things.

In order to break this cycle, you need to gain enough mindfulness and awareness to observe when this is happening, perhaps to anticipate it.  Sometimes, even breathing before acting, or forcing yourself to delay a response to a frightening situation, gives you enough time to gather your wits and observe things.  Can you tell us more about exactly what happened to precipitate your last "automatic save" response?  What did he say and do?  What were your sensations and feelings?  What did you do in response to them?

I am afraid of how down I'll feel while I am rebuilding... .and I am afraid that the family support I had just built up is not longer possible... .my back up plan blew up over the weekend... .

This sounds so scary.  A total rebuild must be very intimidating.  No matter where you go in the world, you will have this board and all your bpdfamily.  You will not be alone!

 

WW

[pearlsw]

Hi WW,

Thanks for asking. He was making some false accusations and using that as a basis for a breakup threat. I don't mind if we break up, any reason will do, but I think it being a false one didn't seem right to me at the time.

I begged a little more to stay together than I care to admit, perhaps wanting to avoid "failure"... .this was all before I went to the States for the funeral.

The time in the US changed a lot of things for me. I enjoyed feeling free, having nice people to talk to... .I remembered how great life can truly be. Ya know? I am nice person to be with, and while perhaps this relationship is beyond repair it helped me to see my life is not over. While this may be my last relationship, I lean hard in that direction, it was nice for example for my older brother and his wife and one of my cousins to make me feel "normal" and okay and like I'd given enough on this one.

Reminds me of a conversation with my uncle about his first marathon, or the videos I saw about triathletes as a kid... .those kind of people who crawl to the finish line in order to finish... .But maybe I should just call for a golf cart to come and haul me off the race course. I dunno.

I guess what I wanted to do is explore a break up mindset. How you do it. I am out of practice after all of these years of "saving" things.

If he is just gonna be upset and unstable and push me away... .and I can't be in love enough because of that instability and lack of bonding between us... .I can't keep doing this, ya know?

I am surprised we made it into this month. I don't yet see how we make it past May or June or whenever our 5 year anniversary is. (We've been together 7 total) I guess I do have to give him a little time when he gets back... .maybe? To see where he is at with meds and therapy?

[pearlsw]

He wrote to apologize and express his shame for how he talked to me today - jealous and controlling. He is asking for closeness. This on/off thing absolutely has to end. He is away so we'll see how this week goes, how many more cycles he'll squeeze in. I can't do this alone anymore, he needs outside support. He has nearly destroyed my feelings for him completely. I can't do anything but take time to think through all the options while I have some down time from him... .Let myself feel what "being alone" feels like and adjusting to the idea incase.

[babyducks]

I guess what I wanted to do is explore a break up mindset. How you do it. I am out of practice after all of these years of "saving" things.

Hi pearls... .

I'll throw this out there for you to kick around some.    

For me the mindset of breaking up was a deliberate choice about where I put my energy.   we were in the middle of a ferocious push.    a lot of "go away babyducks I hate you".    I know I don't have to explain that to you.   and when the push came I allowed myself to be pushed.    if that makes any sense.    I chose to be subtle about it.    

what I found to be the case for us was... .if she pushed and I didn't 'go' it made things worse.   when my ex pushed it wasn't because she wanted the reassurance that I wouldn't leave her... .it was because she wanted to be alone.

I could tell things were building.   you know how you get that second sense?     and then out of the blue I got the "I've had enough,  I am not doing this anymore"email.    

and I said Okay.    just that.   okay.     for about two weeks,  I had the opportunity to "save" the relationship,  and you know what?   I chose to do nothing.   I went back and forth in my head a lot.   Drew some graphs and charts engineering style -   and when there was an opportunity to have a conversation   I didn't.    I just did nothing.

I had that luxury because I knew things were building and I had taken a lot of subtle preliminary steps to have a place to go to.    a bolt hole to run to.  

looking back I can that leading up to that final push... .I had been taking steps to distance myself.    I stopped having those "status of the relationship'   conversations.     I went to bed early,  stayed late at work,... found places to go.   the most important distancing I did was when she dsyregulated I did nothing.     can't say I planned it.   at that point I was so tired I really couldn't have done another intense conversation.

... .He makes me panic and then I automatically start to "save" things.

that's really interesting.   what do you think that's about?   is it a condition response?  something else?

'ducks

[SunandMoon]

Hi Pearls

I also live in my husband's country, very different from my own country. I'd like to offer a different perspective because I have thought about this a lot in my own relationship.

Firstly, if we choose to end it, that's our choice and we do have total control over that. Own it... .it's very empowering.

If I chose to end it, I could consider staying in this country but moving to another area out of his reach. Or I could go back to my home country, in which case I could go back to my home state where I have family or I could choose another state where I have friends. Either would be okay, as I'm a native to that country and could build a new life there.

Or, having lived as an expat already, I could choose to explore living in another country that appeals to me. The excitement of learning a new culture and way of life could be just what I need to put a troubled marriage behind me. It might not be forever but a few years could be a great adventure!

You're feeling blocked but in reality, your options are endless!
 

[pearlsw]

babyducks!  

Yeah, it's odd. I didn't even realize I may have "saved" it til I got back from the funeral and he hadn't filed for divorce or cancelled the lease on the apartment. I fully expected he would not make it that long and would file while I was away or the day I returned. He'd been in that mode, we'd been to lawyers, he was already trying to sell the furniture literally out from underneath me. (I am sorry that is so absurd it makes me want to laugh.) Then suddenly, before I leave he calms again, can't do it... .after making a gigantic drama about it. He was so annoying even his lawyer told him to stop calling her until he's ready to file. So, this "urgent deadline" ended, but there is another big one looming out there... .The 5 year anniversary. (We've been together 7 years, but for legal stuff between us this 5 year mark is huge for him.)

It is such a shame really... .During my trip, despite all the drama there, I did feel much freer, though he was periodically making mini jabs at me for not writing or talking to him enough. I just felt no desire and I managed to dodge it a bit without too much trouble. He does not provide me enough emotional support... .but it's sad. Today he told me he is hurt over this. He feels I am unfair to him and he wants to say something when I tell him my woes, but he can't think of anything. So, I sort of have to feed him his lines. He requested I write out some replies for him and print them out so he can use that as a basis to say more stuff that would be emotionally supportive, give him a bit of a leg up on this stuff. So, I agreed.

He also apologized for his freak outs/false accusations today. I reacted less to them, they are losing some of their effectiveness as a strategy of fear with me. But, in all honesty, if we were two citizens of my home country in our 20's or so I'd be moving out and trying to sort out my feelings and playing the field at this point. Unfortunately, we are in a much more complicated "all or nothing" situation that gives no middle ground. I might be able to fall more in love with him again if he could just go longer before he has his meltdowns and would knock off this controlling b.s... He is ashamed of it, but still, he always uses this method. He needs support to get better and we are heading into, and may already be in, the too little or too late territory.

I panicked (the weekend before I went back for the funeral) because it seemed too early to end things, or for the "wrong reasons". I have been teetering on the edge for a year now. I had told myself in January of 2017 I'd not take one more breakup threat from him and just go. This was before I knew my rights. I have rights and if I want them enforced I'd have to stay and work it through with him and the legal system. That would take 1-3 months I think. I'd have to appear in court I think.

The key now is I have to decide do I now or can I again be in love with him after all this mistreatment? And if I want to give that more time how do I rekindle those kinds of feelings for him because they are nearly non-existent at this point. I detest being with a jealous person and he has sucked the life out of me being so high-maintenance. I can't fit this to any of my "rules". If he is in a mode of wanting to be together do I sort of owe him a bit more time to make it work? Is that how this works? If he wants it should I try and find my way back to him? Is my lack of enthusiasm just temporary? I don't know today. He was nice yesterday and I am happy his job search is starting to look up and I feel like I... .I mean, technically on paper, this "marriage" stuff is a big deal. It could destroy his life if we divorce. Do I "owe" him more chances to make it work because you promise someone "forever" when you start this? I simply don't know.

I think he tries to make me panic at times as a way for me to "prove" my love for him. He is the most insecure partner I've ever had... .and I had to go and make that worse... .I think he manipulates me to get me to desperately "prove" I love him. I think he's said in the past he is accustomed to such drama from his home country, one of them, but also critical of it. I dunno. I can't stand drama of any kind. Not that he ever holds his word, but I asked to promise when we first got together we'd never do a sudden break up and would do at least 6 mo's of counseling before we ever just gave up. I feel like I'd have to offer something to honor that, more time, although there is no way in h--l he would honor his word to me on this... .

[pearlsw]

Firstly, if we choose to end it, that's our choice and we do have total control over that. Own it... .it's very empowering.

You're feeling blocked but in reality, your options are endless!

Hi SunandMoon, I really appreciate your perspective as an expat too! I am contemplating a range of worldly options... .you are right! Another love is not on my radar, I'd rather focus on being independent and happy with myself as a single person.

It is much easier, I've found, to be the one breaking up rather than the one being broken up with. Sorry to say that, but it just is for me. That's why I hadn't done it yet because I could never get to that place mentally... .and I know exactly what that place looks like because I've been there! But this never got me to that point until the last month when he kept saying, "PREPARE TO LEAVE! I WANT A DIVORCE!" Except he doesn't really, but I am starting to think that option is not so bad after all thanks to him repeating it so much!  

[Notwendy]

Pearls, I will try to be a sounding board for your feelings but with keeping the importance that this is your relationship to decide on.

There has been push and pull in your relationship- not unusual for these kinds of things. I think I have posted before about looking at the cycle and not just the individual ups and downs. Is there a pattern?

While you say you have "saved" your marriage, consider the push pull. It is like a "dance"- familiar steps that two people take- and although there is discomfort, there is a familiarity to the drama. When you are a safe attachment, he pushes you away, threatens divorce but he doesn't go through with it ( at least so far) and comes back after the distance.

Now he has not- but what happened? You went to your home country. The idea that you could leave became real- you could potentially not return. He was off balance- you were not there, and his behavior ( jealousy, calling you) reflected that. No need to push you away - you were away. It may also have triggered abandonment fears.

You will see through observation if his new attitude lasts or the pattern continues.

[pearlsw]

Hi Notwendy,

Yes, thanks. I get that it is a pattern and I am not in sync with it anymore. But it is so odd... .here I am up late... .Can't sleep because I have bad throat pain and I am... .thinking a lot about this last "save" that I pulled off before I left... .I immediately regretted it in a way, and yet here I am tonight and I am trying to remember the early years and what he meant to me then... .What was it about him that seemed so special to me at the time? There was actually one quite special thing about him... .his understanding about my struggles around my Ph.D. stuff, the way he was so humble and low-key about his doctorate... .the way he was so caring about me (or so it seemed)... .He was so excited to be with me... .It was nice for me to be with someone else from a non-dominant culture, who had just a completely different life... .it felt like entering a whole new world... .It gave me a break with the past that I somehow didn't know I wanted but was happy to take up... .I don't know... .But up late and alone tonight I wonder... .If anything could just break to make this do-able... .You invest so much in a person and a life... .He is so fun to laugh and make jokes with... .I think he genuinely loves me but is just so ill-equipped for a relationship... .I realized though that all it takes is a few days back in my home country and this world here is lost, not a pull on me, not something I need though I like the peacefulness (outside at least)... .

It just breaks me to see him struggle... .even today... .an odd situation came up and I rose up with this strong urge to defend and protect him... .I thought another road rage thing was about to happen and I just rose up like a lion to defend him. Even he was surprised to see how quickly I reacted ready to defend him. I do understand him, probably better than anyone, it would sadden me to "abandon" him with his troubles in life... .but how do I stay with him? D--n this illness for stealing him from me... .for putting more tragedy and loss into my life... .All we wanted to do was make each other's lives better... .it was that simple... .and he just kept throwing all my love back at me... .all these years.

I can't believe how I've been on my knees from heartbreak in these last years... .people just coming and going and one thing or another not being quite right... .

[Radcliff]

Do I "owe" him more chances to make it work because you promise someone "forever" when you start this? I simply don't know.

pearl, thanks for sharing everything with us.  I don't have the answers, but wanted to pull this question out of your post.  It is a huge question for folks like us.  pearl, if we focus on this question, what are your thoughts on it? 

WW

[pearlsw]

HI WW,

Thanks for your concern.

It's hard for me to find a place to settle on this issue. I signed up for better or for worse, but I didn't sign up for misery and control. I didn't sign up to have my love thrown back at me... .But a sticking point for me will always be "illness"... .He is not solid or stable though and I was really dreaming of having more, not less stability in my life... .I have left other partners over so much less in the past. I just really, really wanted this to be my last relationship. (Perhaps I need to let that my attachment to that notion go. It is not serving me well.) I must wait and see where it is at when he gets back. He is acting like we are on, though before I left he was making some pretty unreasonable requests to give us a final 9 month hail mary phase to this thing so it seemed a matter of time before it was off. I am sure, give him a day or two, and it will be off again.

If he comes back from his trip and says he wants to work on this how do I let him down and say no, I can't anymore if I can push through to that point? But what would ever stop these breakup cycles or his controlling behavior which are unacceptable to me and make all else impossible? I can imagine what it would be like to be able to give and receive love in a healthy way and how good that would feel... .or to just be alone and how good that would feel... .but this? This doesn't feel good. I tolerate it, I work with it, but it's really hard and I am tired of the insults, drama, and pain.  I don't quite know how to leave an ill person though - that is a big part of it. I know this isn't cancer, it's actually worse than that... .but his health is wrecking my health and happiness.
 Years ago, before I found the information, I was willing to just go down with the ship, but now I am more inclined to claw my way back to a better spot in life... .

I just wish... I just hate to see him suffer so much... .I've said it in the past, I don't think he'll let me go so easily, but who knows... .I'm also nervous at how this would play out... .

[babyducks]

It's hard for me to find a place to settle on this issue.

of course it's hard to find a place to settle.    absolutely makes perfect sense that it would be hard to 'land' on one thought or one idea or one conclusion.     a lot of these are new thoughts that are just flickering to life.    a lot of these are thoughts that contradict each other.    I always found that to be the hardest part.    the dichotomy of what I was experiencing.   

I keep something up on my wall,... .I didn't write it... .it says "when fear takes hold, the heart constricts and vision narrows,   and thoughts that insist on doubt, mistrust and disconnection are preceived as truth... .it can be difficult to break this cycle because fear only strengthens itself."

I am talking about us, not our partners and spouses.    when fear takes hold our thinking runs to it's extremes.  that's pretty much human nature but when coupled with a pwBPD it's often difficult to find a stopping point.    for any of us.

  I don't quite know how to leave an ill person though - that is a big part of it.

I was raised to be a caretaker.     my grandmother was an invalid and my grandfather had suffered a stroke... .my mother was dysfunctional so I went to live with my grandparents to lift and carry and make tea and take the trash out and etc etc etc.    I am a very good caretaker.    but when partnered with my Ex I went way way too far with it.    way way too far.       I took more responsibility than I should have.    It gave me the one up position on the drama triangle.   it was familar.   it was what I knew.

I am not saying to be cold or callus or cruel.   there are some real considerations at play.    but I needed to shift my perspective and loosen the bonds of fear.

for seven years you have thought one way, looked at the relationship through one perspective,   mostly his.   shifting that that perspective to identify what you want, need, feel is a great step.   an important step.        keep unraveling the ball of twine.   

'ducks

[Notwendy]

I am not a cold or callous person, but I also felt I was between two difficult choices with my parents. When my father was ill, I tried to help out- sincerely tried- but each time I visited, I faced my BPD mother's verbal and emotional abuse. If I stood up to her, he also snapped at me. Eventually I began to fear for my own sanity. I also realized that no matter what I did, it would not touch the issue. Yes, my mother has a mental illness, but I can not fix her. It was not out of cruelness or uncaring that I had to set boundaries and pull away from the situation. It was that I felt I had reached my limit about what I could do. I know this isn't the same as a marriage, but the parent child bond is also a special commitment- not something to take lightly.

The issues in my marriage were thankfully not as severe, but were taking an emotional toll. I wasn't happy. Fortunately, they were milder and my H was also committed to staying married. There were no divorce threats and we had children. I think all of us have to weight the balance of cost/benefit to staying or leaving and there are many factors to consider. This is one reason none of us can tell someone else to leave or stay. Still, I think we have patterns of behavior in common in these types of relationships that we can address.

Struggling with the situation with my parents helped me to also make changes in my marriage. I used to listen to the Dr. Laura show- and people may have different opinions about her perspective. I actually at the time, listened and read a lot of different ideas on marriage from different sources- religious, secular, conservative, liberal- I like to look at different perspectives. One thing she did say that resonated with me was her deal breakers for relationships- the three A's: adultery, abuse, addiction. These ideas stood out to me because I don't take marriage vows lightly and she takes them strictly- yet did not feel these were tolerable.

Within the three A's though are shades of grey areas as well. People also have their different tolerances. Two people might agree on an open marriage. Two addicts might understand each other. Do you dissolve a marriage over one affair if the person is remorseful and doesn't do it again. Surely this is different from serial cheating without remorse. Verbal abuse is still abuse but how severe and is there physical abuse?  A recovering alcoholic would be easier to be married to then someone who is not concerned with recovering. We have to have our own boundaries and what we tolerate within the three A's.

Being controlling, threatening divorce is hurtful and emotionally abusive.

Which comes to this- how do we repair relationships? People can make mistakes but the way to restore a relationship is through a process- the person has some awareness that they have done something hurtful and is willing to work at it- to the best of their ability- and consistently. I realize that this is probably my requirement, and may not be someone else's but it seemed to make sense. It also takes both people. I brought my own issues into relationships too.

What I had experienced with my mother and also my H was a "recycle" not a reconciliation. I call it the dry erase method- pretend nothing happened. I think a true apology is hard to get from someone with BPD/NPD. I have rarely heard even a smidgen of one from my mother. I think this triggers a painful sense of shame. She just decides all is good now, is super nice, and I am supposed to pretend nothing happened. From her perspective, nothing is wrong with her, there is nothing to fix, she is fine. The same pattern was going on in my marriage. Periods of affection, then suddenly out of the blue, a blow up, then all is good again. Still, we had a workable situation through MC which was different from my mother. So - two different important relationships - one workable, one not - in my world.

Perhaps a part of your decision is how workable is it? How much is he able or willing to make changes and what is your part in this?

A large part of the work was looking at myself. I think there are aspects of ourselves that lead us into these types of relationships and/or at least keep us in them. I think everyone is capable of being attracted to these often very charismatic personalities, but I personally don't think that someone with emotionally healthy boundaries would remain in them to the point of serious commitment or as long. Many of us grew up in dysfunctional families. Perhaps we learned our own behaviors from our role models or our own family roles, and we need to learn different ones- no matter what our decision is to stay or leave. Either way - we can potentially improve ourselves and how we relate to others.

[pearlsw]

I'll throw this out there for you to kick around some.    

For me the mindset of breaking up was a deliberate choice about where I put my energy.   we were in the middle of a ferocious push.    a lot of "go away babyducks I hate you".    I know I don't have to explain that to you.   and when the push came I allowed myself to be pushed.    if that makes any sense.    I chose to be subtle about it.    

that's really interesting.   what do you think that's about?   is it a condition response?  something else?

'ducks

Hi 'ducks!  

I was at this place once in the past, but somehow I didn't follow through. I am normally pretty decisive about relationship stuff, but this high stakes all or nothing international stuff is a bit much even for me.

A lot of it is a fear of "failure" (for me it is simply things not working out - it doesn't destroy me mentally). I think a typical US breakup I could keep more discreetly to myself, this would reverberate a bit... .but I am getting used to that. The conversations I had in the States, when people saw what I've really been going through were all met with support and understanding. No one told me to stay and work it out. At all.

In the past I've been starkly opposed to using a dysregulation to set off a break up. It seemed unfair to both of us, but for different reasons. I am sure he does not really want a break up, for the most part. We have both said, in the past, we wanted to get past our relationship breakdown and up to a point that meant a lot to me... .but I also saw recently the endless pain he brings... .I mean for goodness sakes, he was really awful in the midst of this death in my family... .really, really awful. He showed no concern for me and was only thinking of himself. It was so... .beyond disappointing, just insulting and careless. And he was more focused on his jealous paranoia than the real things I was dealing with.

I expect there will be more dysregulation threats between now and this legal milestone... .I am not sure how wild this could get... .and work-wise I feel like I am wasting time... .We really ought to talk and make a plan, he and I, but he is so hard to talk with... .so hard, so inconsistent. Nothing you think you've agreed to ever seems to stick.

I am sure not going to make the same "saving" speeches I just made another time. That I am sure of. I am gearing up mentally to be ready to take a settlement the next time this hits me in the face again. The settlement is actually a much better deal for me... .but I didn't want the "easy way out" on a relationship. I wanted to feel like I did all I possibly could because there will definitely be no 2nd chance once/if I am gone.

thanks 'ducks, i appreciate you and everyone helping me process this!

[pearlsw]

I am not a cold or callous person, but I also felt I was between two difficult choices with my parents. When my father was ill, I tried to help out- sincerely tried- but each time I visited, I faced my BPD mother's verbal and emotional abuse. If I stood up to her, he also snapped at me. Eventually I began to fear for my own sanity. I also realized that no matter what I did, it would not touch the issue. Yes, my mother has a mental illness, but I can not fix her. It was not out of cruelness or uncaring that I had to set boundaries and pull away from the situation. It was that I felt I had reached my limit about what I could do. I know this isn't the same as a marriage, but the parent child bond is also a special commitment- not something to take lightly.

The issues in my marriage were thankfully not as severe, but were taking an emotional toll. I wasn't happy. Fortunately, they were milder and my H was also committed to staying married. Still, I think we have patterns of behavior in common in these types of relationships that we can address.

Being controlling, threatening divorce is hurtful and emotionally abusive.

Which comes to this- how do we repair relationships? People can make mistakes but the way to restore a relationship is through a process- the person has some awareness that they have done something hurtful and is willing to work at it- to the best of their ability- and consistently. I realize that this is probably my requirement, and may not be someone else's but it seemed to make sense. It also takes both people. I brought my own issues into relationships too.

I think this triggers a painful sense of shame. She just decides all is good now, is super nice, and I am supposed to pretend nothing happened. From her perspective, nothing is wrong with her, there is nothing to fix, she is fine. The same pattern was going on in my marriage. Periods of affection, then suddenly out of the blue, a blow up, then all is good again.

Perhaps a part of your decision is how workable is it? How much is he able or willing to make changes and what is your part in this?

Hi Notwendy, Oh, I can relate a little on the parents stuff which is why I am estranged from my mom. I just couldn't take more of her stuff... .in her case she had a clear way to make the changes she wanted and open things up with me... .she is just stuck in her own difficult world and that is for her to deal with. I tried to help her in the past, but she has to want help. We aren't "compatible" in some ways really... .I dunno. I actually briefly allied with her during the latest family drama because she too made an effort to reach out to the unexpected folks that showed up at the funeral, and made a point to express my admiration for that, but I digress... .

I don't see myself as particularly unhealthy and I think, honestly, that is a bit to my personal credit... .It also is a source of strength for me in feeling like I am equipped to deal with such things. Health is a big issue for me, meaning not wanting to leave an ill partner... .but is not something that I can't overcome. I have. I know people have a hard time with it at times, but with an international romance, foreign countries, etc. is really a whole other ball game of complication. I have ended relationships over far, far less. In those instances I had the means and network to help make it happen. But it was not easy either. This, by contrast, is financially catastrophic for me and massively difficult down to every last detail. It is a 8 on the Richter scale vs. a 4.

I do get sincere apologies. I have learned to accept that they will be shorter than I might like, but I accept that they are genuine and yes, they are filled with a high level of shame. It's sad really.

The hardest part for me lately is he is simply burning out my feelings for me... .I find him ethically repulsive at times... .I don't feel loyal to him in a normal fashion... .I feel protective of him, but not loyal... .I simply find it hard to relate to how he operates in the world... .I can't count on him to be stable, reliable, predictable, kind... .He has trouble self-soothing and his hyper-vigilance is too much too. He is clingy, needy and selfish at times. It's hard. But... .I signed up... .

thanks for sharing and reflecting with me!

[Jeffree]

Can people explore the notion of a breakup with me? How would I do it?

Very sorry for what you're going through, pearlsw. Such things are never easy or have a clear choice.

However, I would suggest putting in place some safeguards before bringing a  conversation with your spouse forward.

Are you clear in your boundaries with him and how immutable they are? A conversation about divorcing is going to be an excruciatingly difficult thing to navigate, so the clearer you are yourself the clearer you can be with him.

Have you consulted with a lawyer to know what your legal recourse is?

Does the local police department know of your spouse and will they be willing to respond at a moment's notice should things go awry?

 
J

[BeagleGirl]

Pearl,
    Where to start... .I've read through all your posts on this thread and there are so many things that resonate with where I was a little over a year ago.
    I have a very long story (27 years of relationship with dBPDstbxh) that I won't go into.  I left him just over a year ago with the full intention to reconcile and restore our marriage.  I had reached a point where I felt I could no longer live with him and achieve that goal.  The level of mental and emotional pain that I was in was translating to physical issues.  I needed space.  
    Like you, I had reached a place where I could barely remember what I had loved in him.  He was not only unattractive to me, I was starting to fear him and feel repulsion.  I hoped that some space between us would bring the level of stress and pain down to a point where we could both remember why we had married and learn what we needed to do to rebuild.
    The biggest lesson I have learned in the past year is that I had to decide whether I was willing to continue in the patterns I was holding to.  I had to imagine a world where nothing would ever change in his behavior.  Was I willing to continue cleaning up his messes?  Was I willing to rebuild our marriage when he set a torch to it?  Was I willing to do so even when he was actively fighting against my efforts?  My answer was "no".  
    :)on't get me wrong, making that decision was a long process.  Changing my behaviors to reflect that answer was an even longer process.  Even after I had decided to stop rebuilding and cleaning, I would find myself continuing to do it.  Thank goodness I have a good counselor and good friends who will point out to me when I'm acting counter to my stated decision.  I spent a fair amount of time inviting, and sometimes begging, dBPDstbxh to rebuild and clean up.  He just kept looking back at me with confusion and anger that I would expect him to take over, or even just share, the responsibility that I had carried for so long.  He kept telling me and others that he wanted our marriage and would do anything to save it, if I would just tell him what he needed to do.  Another big "lightbulb" moment was finally believing what my counselor kept telling me - I had clearly communicated to him what it would take to save our marriage.  I was no longer responsible for continuing to tell him.  Holding him accountable for doing what he knew he should do did NOT look like following him around pointing to the messes and saying "Please clean this up".  Accountability came in the form of the consequences:  the messes didn't get cleaned up and I wouldn't live in a marriage full of those messes.
    I have a few more "lightbulb" moments that I could share, but I don't want to get ahead of where you currently are.  I'd like to hear your thoughts on the following:

Are you willing to continue your current patterns (tolerating the hurt/saving the relationship when he tries to burn it down).
If not, what would the natural consequences that would happen if you stopped following your pattern?
Does your H reasonably know what he would need to do to save the marriage (or at least know where he could go to find that information)?

    Saddly, nobody can make this decision for you.  I can tell you that it's been the hardest decision I've ever had to made, and the consequences of that decision have been incredibly painful, not only for me but also for my children and other people I love.  BUT, despite the pain, I believe I made the right decision.  If I had handed over responsibility for this decision to anyone else (dBPDstbxh, counselor, pastor, friends, family) I don't think I could have endured the pain or come to this point with the sense of peace I have.  It's hard work facing this decision and I applaud your courage in doing so.
BeagleGirl

[Cat Familiar]

Pearlsw,
What I'm hearing in your words is that you've tried so hard for years to be empathetic and that at this point, you're at burnout. You've lost the emotional connection to why you originally fell in love with this man, yet you still have the intellectual understanding of what attracted you. You have stitched up the relationship so many times before, but now you've lost the needle and thread and wonder if it's worth looking for replacement mending tools. You wonder if it's even possible to re-fall in love with him, now you know what you know about his behavior.

When my father died, my husband showed no sympathy for my feelings, instead threatened to commit suicide unless I immediately flew home, before even burying my dad. This was one of the issues that finally sealed the deal for me. Like you, I felt that my presence was needed in his life to prop him up, that he would be incapable of managing life without my assistance. And because our financial circumstances were so intertwined and that I had so many responsibilities, I could barely conceive how I would manage without the minimal help he provided.

Some time before I had drawn a line in the sand for myself that if any of the As that Notwendy mentioned were crossed again, that I would be out or that I would admit that I was simply "waiting to die" in this relationship. Well, that moment happened and I chose life. And as I have often mentioned, I've never for a moment regretted my choice. Yes, it was difficult, but I approached each challenge on a step by step basis. And I've never felt so free and in control of my life. That said, I did marry another pwBPD, but this one is BPD-lite. Life can be really good. You don't have to be stuck with a bad decision forever.

   
Cat

[Red5]

   The biggest lesson I have learned in the past year is that I had to decide whether I was willing to continue in the patterns I was holding to.  I had to imagine a world where nothing would ever change in his behavior.  Was I willing to continue cleaning up his messes?  Was I willing to rebuild our marriage when he set a torch to it?  Was I willing to do so even when he was actively fighting against my efforts?  My answer was "no".  
    

This is resonating in my head right now... .a few things I have read over the last year,

*Is your sig-other pw/BPD likely to change their behavoirs, over time, in the context of a "healing fully", answer is no in most cases.

*Is living with, dealing with constantly, and trying to navigate life with your sig-other  pw/BPD detrimental to your long term mental, as well physical health, answer is yes in most cases.

*Is there a limit of endurance, and end to ones mental coping capacities, when you come to the realization that your sig-other  pw/BPD may never change, but may even become worse over time, answer is yes.

*What does it do to ones psychological makeup, when the realization that you have repeated the cycle, over and over and over again with your sig-other pw/BPD, does this sound like any form of acceptable sanity, answer is no.

Its been ten years now for me in this present marriage, the patterns are now as clear as the craters on the moon to me... .although as I have learned to better cope with the behaviors, and as well control my own reactions and feelings, it does not change the fact that they are always going to be there, I do not believe at his point that anything is ever really going to change for good, ie' permanently.

Its like I am carrying a full pack on my back, sometimes I can put it down and rest, but I am always going to have to pick it back up, and carry it.

What does putting the pack down for good look like, what would that actually feel like ?  

Is there something in that pack that I am so dearly hanging onto, what is in there, why am I so devoted to this particular pack?

Is there an end to this trek, .ever ?

How much endurance, or tolerance do I have in me to keep on walking with this pack on my back... .maybe a silly metaphor, but the best I can think of at the moment.

Red5

[pearlsw]

Exploring the Notion of a Breakup:

Ya’ll are so awesome I can barely keep up with it! Thanks for the support!

Um, before I give replies I want to say where I am at at the moment. He is calm now, and that tends to lull me into thinking things are fine and will stay fine. They don’t. (Knocks head against wall to remind self of that.) He cycles around and I am flattened again and again. I am tired of the stress. We made it past one deadline he was freaking out about with the relationship, the last day of January. There is some 5 year legal anniversary that comes up…I want to say in June? So, I feel like we are plummeting towards that legal deadline. I am unsure what it means if we cross it. Legally I know, but emotionally and in terms of a future life. I’d feel a bit locked in if we cross that threshold. Like I’d “owe” it to him to give this more time because of the legal framework around us.

In my mind there are two tracks - the relationship track and my career track. My career has been wrecked and I’d have to go back to my home country and rebuild. I feel torn. I feel like you are “supposed” to give a lot to making a relationship work out, but I know there are limits. The way he acts when he is dysregulating is too much for me. I don’t like not being able to have a calm, stable life. I feel like I deserve that in life - “married” or single. Trying to stay and work on things with him digs a bigger hole for me in life incase this doesn’t work out. If it did “work out” that would be hard enough career wise.

On his side,  if I leave him his life will be financially wrecked, if I leave him after the 5 years he’d be financially ruined. Forever. I’d have to find a way to make the state not force him to support me for so long. He doesn’t deserve that. He’s 9 years older than I am and I don’t want that for him. He has kids, they aren’t nice to me, but still, that’s mostly a result of his meltdowns and lack of proper parenting boundaries…he cares about them so I do as well. That’s part of the deal.

So, do I stay and dig a deeper hole, which will happen, if he does not get some help? Is he about to get some help? Will he follow through? I hate to set conditions, but I can’t do this alone anymore. It is too traumatic and painful and damaging. I can’t see his anger, or watch his tricks, lies, bluffs, or see his mean face…My life has been reduced to the barest of existence and not in a good way. I have borne it so far because of my simple, monk like tendencies. I’m not materialistic and I am happy with simple things. So….it doesn’t take much to make me happy and he can’t meet the basic threshold…This kills me…what if I am giving up right at the moment it could get better? I know there are no guarantees, but…what if it has any kind of chance? What do I owe him in terms of “not quitting”?

I am not afraid of being alone because of lack of companionship. I can make friends and engage in the community. I can set up a routine that prevents me from becoming depressed and hopeless. I can focus on fitness and other interests. I am asking how many chances do I have left to give, but this isn’t about chances really…he is out of control…these are cycles not chances. I still like his beard , but he scares me in a way…his moodiness…I am not at ease with him…we laugh, but there is always that creeping fear of his reactions, his over the top ways. His jealousness if a man even looks or speaks to me in his presence. I can’t stand it.

I feel like I accidentally got myself an extension I didn't entirely want... .I have know idea what he’ll say if I ever suggest a breakup. He’ll surely have a meltdown. I know I would like to be the one guiding and managing the breakup plan. Not to be a control freak, but just to keep things calm and fair and reasonable and minimize the pain.

I truly would have liked to spend my life with him…but this illness and his response to it makes it nearly impossible.  I wanted to work with these issues. I was feeling so much happier, but he can't soothe himself well... .It saddens me greatly, but I know it will also be a relief if we part. I don’t think I can handle seeing him crushed…I don’t know he had to the nerve to do this to me hundreds of times! We’ll see…I know I won’t be able to do this until I feel zero romantic love (I’m getting there thanks to his outrageousness and mistreatment) and harden my heart a bit…sigh.

[pearlsw]

Jeffree - hey, thanks for popping by! We hadn’t met yet, so nice to meet ya! I like your idea of safeguards. I don’t know about what happens if I file (yet)…I always been in a more reactive posture on this. It is pretty soundproof here, but I can manage this kind of stuff…calling for help if it got that far. Thanks man!

BeagleGirl - I wish there was a middle ground option. Maybe just not seeing him everyday would help? But it is impossible for immigration/financial reasons. I feel so much more relaxed, overall, when he is not around. These patterns are entrenched and something must stop. It breaks my heart... but I can’t carry the relationship on my own…I’ve done it for too long.  

CatFamiliar - Thanks so much for sharing this story! Wow. It always amazes me when I hear other people going through identically horrible things! Yikes! He says he did not say “so what?” at a point after my grandpa died, but he did. Even he must have realized that was a step too far. It is so hard to accept that he may simply not be capable of anything near what a healthy relationship is…he is in another universe.  

Red5 - Well so nice of you to come by! It’s like a party here today! I hear ya. I feel like I could handle a lot. I could. I have the strength for this…but what I am lacking is a good job and on the ground support system here…but he’s said things lately that make me think he’d be very threatened by that and undermine it…guilt me…He is just living by his most primal instincts and thinks (at times) he can’t change on the jealousy stuff.

Lots of stuff here to keep thinking over ya’ll! Thanks so much for listening and sharing!

[Notwendy]

I like Beaglegirls statement that we have to decide at what point we are no longer willing to participate in the drama.

If you were to leave Pearls- how would it financially devastate him if you decide you don't want to do that and don't take the money. From what you write - it doesn't sound like either of you have large assets. Divorces often involve arrangements over money, assets like a home, and custody of children. Yes the emotional aspect is difficult but if you have little to dispute materially then that isn't a factor.

If there aren't possessions or children - seems less complicated to just let that aspect go.

[pearlsw]

Hi Notwendy,

Thanks! We spoke with his lawyer on this specific point. The country we are in protects me quite well... .I can't wrap my mind around it, but it is not considered fair if I don't take his money so even if I leave the country his lawyer insists he is forced to give me certain things and I am forced to take it - by law. He and I talked over ways around this between us... .I could funnel some of the money back to him or something we discussed as an option but that might not work legally either. We don't know. We'll see... .I am not worried today. I imagine I could get a divorce threat this weekend. I always get one sooner or later. I don't know where his head is at. He's been missing me a lot, and is glad I am here... .it is a comfort for him, but that can all change in an instant. He simply cannot stay in this white state.  I am waiting til he gets back to see if he is ready to see a doctor and a therapist... .he was open to this before I left, but he changes like the weather, poor guy.  

He's just burned me out with this month plus of unrelenting drama... .and his lack of support around funeral stuff, focus on his jealousy over me spending time with family has been a bit of a tipping point... .but we'll see how I handle any guilt that he may hit me with... .I am a slow breaker-upper. I like them planned and all options to be exhausted... .but he will live in the world with me in the driver's seat. Ya know?



thanks for checking in, pearl.

[formflier]

Pearlsw,

I'm still gaining understanding of your story and who you are.

It seems very important to you that you are "fair" to him financially, yet there is a big impact on your career.  I don't totally understand how a breakup is and 8 on the scale instead of a 4.

And I don't understand this desire to circumnavigate laws.

I'm wondering if you were to go to him and "one more time" talk about staying together and what you need for that to be good.  Then respect his decision.

If he moves towards you and gives you what you need (however he lowers the BPD stuff) then great.

If he chooses not to do that, let him connect the dots.  Sort of like BeagleGirl deciding not to point out messes and ask for them to be cleaned up.

One of my normal advice lines and a thing I try to practice hard in my relationship is to not save my wife from the normal and logical consequences of her actions.

For your guy... .a normal and logical consequence of a relationship ending is that the laws of his country are followed.  Likely not a good thing to "rescue" him from.

Perhaps there is big stuff or nuance I've missed.  Standing by to learn more.

Thoughts?

FF

[Notwendy]

I think FF makes a good point about natural consequences. Yes, he has a disorder, but he is also capable in many ways. Although your concern about him is understandable he is also capable of hiring a lawyer to look out for his interests and threatening divorce several times- and is aware of the consequences of a divorce in his country.

Divorce is a difficult process that has financial consequences. Still, people choose it when they come to the decision that this is the best route to take even with these consequences. I don't want to lead you in either direction- I understand that you have not decided this and it is a big decision to think about.

A large concern for you seems to be the impact on him. However, a big part of the decision is the impact on you- if you leave and also if you stay and the pros and cons for either decision.

I think we are concerned about the ability of BPD partners to handle discomfort. However, by protecting them or rescuing them from discomfort, we also take their ability to learn to handle it away from them.