I guess I "saved" my relationship, but I want it less than ever

[juju2]

hi,

just my 2 cents.

Couldnt tell if you already broke it off for certain.

i did that last yr w pwBPD, it was supposed to be a healing separation.  It turned out that after 10 months, he started dating others; in nov him and i started couples counseling.
My main point is i never saw my part in our problems; for me, he was making everything awful.
After we stopped living together, a light went on in my head, it wasnt his fault, we both contributed and mostly it was me, i didnt take care of myself, i was always blaming him for x,y,z.  I now see tools, things i can do, attitudes i can adopt, willingness i can have.  Its my choice.  I am not a victim.

thank you, j

[BeagleGirl]

Pearls,
    I recognize so much of your thinking in myself, so I'm going to give you a few things about what I've done to protect my H that may help hold a mirror up to those thoughts. 
    I am currently awaiting a legal separation judgement that will award over 65% of our marital assets to my H and assign 100% responsibility for our children's expenses to me (with the exception of food he feeds them when with him).  I came up with this agreement.  I felt it was "what I owed him".  I'll pause here to say that H is 42, able bodied, skilled, educated (I should know, I helped put him through college and paid off his student loans), and very capable of gainful employment. 
    On Thursday, when H followed his declaration that he has done everything that he can do to save our marriage and is willing to divorce with the request that I leave the church that we have attended as a family for 13 years, where I have served as mission's council president, church board secretary, women's ministry leader at various times and am currently a pre-K Sunday school teacher so he would feel more comfortable attending there through and after the divorce my first response was to start figuring out how to tell our children's department leader that I couldn't teach my class anymore, then to ask H if he would be okay with me still teaching my class if I didn't attend the worship service or any of the church activities.
    This morning I was filling the pill containers for one of our older dogs.  I have two 14 day containers, one for my house and one for his (he gets custody of the dogs when he has custody of S14).  One container has most of the day/time labels rubbed off.  I purposely gave him the one that is nicer because he sometimes forgets to give our dog her meds and then loses track of what day he's on.

    All of these are examples of how distorted my view of my responsibility for his wellbeing and comfort is.  The good news is that I've had a year away from the daily FOG (not to mention a very blunt counselor) that is helping me to recognize that distortion sooner and sooner.  The bad news is that I'm still extremely susceptible to acting out of that distorted view.  And, as Notwendy and FormFlier have said here or in other posts, shielding him from the consequences of his actions does not help him.  My counselor goes a step further and has continually told me that stepping away from the messes he makes and refusing to clean them up is an act of love. 
    I don't discount the responsibility you feel for not giving everything you can to make the marriage work.  I hear you saying that part of that responsibility you feel is based in your core values that say that you should do everything within your power to honor vows that you have made.  That seems healthy.  What doesn't seem healthy is the part of you that feels responsible for holding together a marriage that your partner is actively working to destroy because that partner would then suffer the consequences of their actions.  I know that's an oversimplification of your struggle and may not be completely accurate, but it's what I hear through the filter of FOG I've lived my life in.
    Does any of this resonate with you?
BeagleGirl

[Notwendy]

Beagle Girl- I see so much of myself in your actions too. It's amazing how we over care for a grown adult- makes me wonder how we got ourselves into such a pattern.

The flip side of this is resentment. My H likes to have me fix food for him. There is nothing wrong with him liking a home cooked meal, and I actually like my own cooking and prefer to do it, but it goes beyond that. If he had his way, I would do it all- sit next to him and butter his own toast for him- and he'd like it. I got into a pattern of fixing all his meals in order to not have him rage and get upset, not because I genuinely like doing that.

The other side of this is resentment, and I began to resent fixing his food but did it anyway out of fear. How is it that I had to be concerned that a grown man could not fix a sandwich or heat something up in the microwave? The other effect of over caretaking is lack of passion. Eventually, along with resentment came a lack of attraction or desire. Acting like a "mom" to my H isn't exactly passionate. I think he also began to resent that.

One of the first things our MC said to me was "stop fixing his meals". I was actually scared, as not cooking might lead to a few days of silent treatment or a really bad evening, but with her encouragement, I did stop some of it. I still cook for us several days a week- the family still has to eat and so do I, but if I am busy or the kids had an activity, well we have to do something else. He does not like it, but he has adjusted.  

I was a Stepford wife for so long and that set the expectations in my marriage. I think I brought that into the marriage. I was an emotional care taker to my BPD mother from an early age. I am certain this is part of what attracted my H to me- my need to caretake matched his needs to be caretaken.

[pearlsw]

FF - fair questions! My h has been divorced previously (He spent of lot of money on this. A lot.) and has three kids.  Providing for them means a lot to him. I am able to work. I just need help transitioning back to my home country if we end things. I don’t want him to lose so much in life as he is closer to retirement age than I am. I would not mind some help, just not more than I need. He breaks up with me all the time/makes divorce threats. He is not easy to talk to about the relationship without a major level of drama. He just lost his job and I had a death in the family…I am hoping for time to “relax” before we revisit whether we want to continue or not. Because of his month long drama I am finally leaning more towards ending it than i am towards repairing it. I like what you say about not trying to save him from consequences. I think I’m doing that less and less. If he wants to file he can. He made a giant, convincing drama about and then quieted down. I do not take it to mean this issue is over…In fact I am expecting more rounds of this before our 5 year anniversary.

Notwendy - Not only does he have a lawyer, he has a high-powered free one who is ethically challenged. I know her.  My big issue at the moment is he has nearly destroyed my love for him with his treatment of me this last month.

juju6860 - Not broken off yet. Could change by the day though! Wow - that sounds amazing what you’ve learned. Can I ask to please put that up in a post and expand on it because I think that would really help a lot of others to have that to focus on! If you like, no pressure!

BeagleGirl - Thanks for this! Just to give a bit of background on me… I have previously never taken anything after similarly long relationships that were not marriages. I dunno. I always liked the guys and didn’t want…stuff/money. I think I missed some kind of learning about this…because it makes me feel tremendously bad to take someone’s money. Don’t worry about me on this one. I’ll make it in life. I just read more of your reply and will think that over a bit more…I don’t think I am doing something new for him…I am more so honoring me and how I feel. He’s actually made quite a few financial offers of various sizes. He knows he cannot legally get out of helping me financially. It is rather myself that is proposing a way around it. When he is calm I am happy to offer him help with this…but when he is out of his mind…I’m not gonna negotiate. I can’t. It is too intense.

Notwendy - oh gosh. The details vary a bit, but we’ve got food issues too! His was never taught to cook, refuses to learn and is very helpless…I hear ya... not exactly a turn-on.

Thanks all! I get so much great support I feel inadequate to keep up!

[formflier]

It's obvious that you care about him and his well being.  That's a good thing. 

I'm hoping you will agree that most pwBPD have had some part of their maturing process that hasn't quite completed.

Many times that happened because they were "sheltered" or "enabled" or not otherwise allowed to experience life.

He obviously didn't learn from his first marriage.  Perhaps he was enabled their as well.

Wouldn't it be better to allow him to experience life (the laws of his country) without being saved or shielded.

Otherwise... perhaps it will happen again in his third marriage/divorce.

FF   

[pearlsw]

Hi FF,

Fair point! Thanks! I am not trying to shield him though actually... .it is about my comfort level. I am not a money-oriented person. I need/want very little in terms of materials possessions.

He swears up and down "he will never marry again!" Who knows. He can't really afford it financially speaking, that I am sure of. Not my concern though.

If we do break I am certain he will be one ex, an exception for me, that would be better off being away from me entirely. He will manage just fine without me, impoverished or not. 

[formflier]

Hi FF,

Fair point! Thanks! I am not trying to shield him though actually... .it is about my comfort level. I am not a money-oriented person. I need/want very little in terms of materials possessions.
 

Then that can be handled post settlement.

Perhaps give the excess to charity or save it "in name of" a future purpose.

We all know about what "pwBPD say"... .right?

FF

[Notwendy]

If he doesn't earn or have a lot of money - how could what he pay you be an excessive sum? He can't pay what he doesn't have. If you don't need it there are thousands of worthy causes to help.

[formflier]

I'll admit to not knowing "exactly" what we are talking about.  As in, does the law say you get $20K and you only want $10k? 

I usually get the hair standing up on the back of my neck when I don't know details... .so... perhaps they matter, if you can share... please do.

However, I've got to admit, I'm completely comfortable with the advice of let the laws in place (that he is aware of and experienced before) govern the situation. 

They are there for a reason.

Yes, judges will operate within the limits of those laws, but what I'm hearing doesn't sound like asking a judge to "go easy on him".

FF

[Notwendy]

Pearls,

I get that you are conflicted, and from your posts here, you seem more concerned about the effect of a possible divorce on your H than on you.

Yet in your posts on the saving board, you are expressing fears about his possibly threatening divorce again and how hard that would be on you emotionally.

Good for focusing on your feelings. If your H were so concerned about the consequences to him of divorce then I don't know why he would frequently threaten it. As discussed in this thread- actions have consequences. One of the issues in your marriage is his threats- that harms a marriage. If his actions lead to the financial consequences for him- then that is the natural consequence.

But enough about him- because your feelings are an important part of your relationship. On the other board, you expressed a genuine fear that he may threaten divorce again. While you may be contemplating it yourself ( and I think that is natural with a troubled relationship- to contemplate the choices to stay or leave at times) you have also expressed fears of it actually happening.

Fear is a common emotion in troubled relationships and can be behind the push -pull pattern.

[Go]

Pearl,
Found you link by pure serendipity it seems tonight.  I suggest you spend some time empowering yourself by looking at what can be done to gain better traction within the existing relationship, so you can make wiser long reaching decisions rather than jumping one way or the other.  If in doubt don't.  Much of this effort to improve your skills (here) will tell you whether you feel you can develop sufficient means to work with your SO.  Also if there is truly sufficient value in the relationship to warrant the effort.

There is a lot of professionally put together information to be worked through here at this site on the tabs, aside from the full spectrum of colours one will find as people comment and indicate how they are either choosing or chose, how to apply themselves to stay in a difficult relationship or how they are applying themselves to get the strength to truly walk away. 

The latter is as much work (if not far more) as the staying, but it has a sunset clause, which means you don't find yourself having to double down again and again, until you are utterly weary and ready to drop.  For some people it is worth it to stay.  My wife was truly difficult at times... .no lets be frank, much of it was utter hell, but at times, we built a quality of life together that in some ways was most unique and wonderful.  It took huge amounts of work and in truth we never really worked through anything.  My wife was (as one other here explained of his ex) more like a Raccoon on Crack.  Ditto!  That was my wife, which eventually took its final toll on us both.  I was sick of her either a) running off or b) looking for her latest non-drug fix.   

Part of me is really disgusted by this weakness of character, as much as I do my best to understand her BPT for what it really is... .abuse as child, that limits proper psychological development.  Now she has left, her life as the foolish child she too often is, has spiralled downwards rapidly like a plane missing a wing. It is such an utter disaster most of my kids have cut her off like she has the plague.  Very sad as she is actually a very lovely, highly intelligent person, just has very bad runs of BPD always getting in the road of a mature developed emotional life and hence development of proper, meaningful, trusted relationships.

She is hugely talented.  I loved her very much, as I had sacrificed everything to build a life with her. At times she loved me, but I still ask the question, was it love or more obsession.  Consequently, I miss her terribly in my life still.  While I enjoy the peace, I miss the fire terribly and get pretty bored to be honest... .but frankly no I don't want her back.  It is me that needs to move on permanently now, not her. 

I fear I always will, but know that I am now far better off without her... .as are most definitely the kids, which is a really sad fact.  They have healed and now see what a destructive influence she was.  If you are intending on having children that would be something that would give me great pause, if I had the chance for a do over... .on the basis, I was still able to have all the kids I have now.  Interestingly when she left I was happy to see the last of her, but now with distance I certainly miss many things one takes for granted.  She has like many BPD sufferers moved onto her new obsession.  We still have a connection, just not very much.  I often wonder now whether she is just using me to reach out to the kids in order to have them acknowledge her, which they prefer not to.

This time my wife's new internet relationship made good, might work as he is IMO just another con man like her late father, hopefully for her not another adulterer and child beater too, but give him his dues, he seems to have filled a missing piece in her life and brought out some humility in her, that has come from her now substantially less than affluent environment.  Her health has also cycled out of control to now being at grave risk of stroke or heart attack.

She has certainly paid the ultimate sacrifice for him in the loss of both her immediate family (forget me being disappeared) but also geographically have distanced herself almost purposely from all of her children.  I suggest you look at the spectrum here.  22 years you may invest as did I and then something like this... .or perhaps you will beat the odds. 

This is not a win/lose thing at all, on the flip of a coin.  This is more a case of risk mitigation.  If you were investing every last cent you owned and also borrowing heavily also, would you invest in this person.  So if not everything, then how much would you invest and how much would you play safe with and put into something far more secure.  For my wife, as much as I loved her, she was a terrible investment.  Whatever I invested (and trust me it was $100s of thousand of dollars in the last 10 years of marriage) it all was just utterly wasted, not just once but dozens and dozens of times as she could not settle down and apply herself to anything of lasting worth.   The only thing that was consistent, was her constant need for change in her life.  I am so glad I dug my heals in about keeping our home.  We would have nothing now.  Fortunately she was at home with the kids in earlier life, so her ability to earn was not critical, and we lived fairly tight, but later as we became affluent, her inability to be steady was a terrible burden for everyone.  I suggest you look at this side of the BPD and see if this applies at all for you also.   That alone could be a deal breaker where family life is concerned.  If however that is steady, then I would be looking much harder at staying and carefully analyse what other quality foundations can be built.
Regards,
Go

[heartandwhole]

Hi pearlsw,

What a difficult situation to be in! I can understand the feelings you've expressed here. I'm glad you are writing it all out and getting such good advice.

I think we are concerned about the ability of BPD partners to handle discomfort. However, by protecting them or rescuing them from discomfort, we also take their ability to learn to handle it away from them.  

I think this is such a huge point. Something that I've been learning in my own relationships and behavior.

I've realized that "saving" someone from pain is often an attempt to save myself from discomfort and hurt. It makes me so uncomfortable to see someone struggling or suffering. The way I've learned to deal with my own discomfort is to try to stop their suffering, to rescue,  or save them from pain.

I could, instead, focus on myself and my feeling of discomfort and learn what that is about, and save myself.

I would actually be modeling to the other person a way of dealing with his/her own hurt. In other words, it could really help the other person while it's helping me.

heartandwhole  

[BeagleGirl]

I've realized that "saving" someone from pain is often an attempt to save myself from discomfort and hurt. It makes me so uncomfortable to see someone struggling or suffering. The way I've learned to deal with my own discomfort is to try to stop their suffering, to rescue,  or save them from pain.

I could, instead, focus on myself and my feeling of discomfort and learn what that is about, and save myself.

This is what I've been trying to learn this past year.  My (very astute) counselor watched as I shifted my rescue and protection efforts from dBPDstbxh to S14.  She was patient enough to not jump right in and point it out to me.  She let it dawn on me (with a few little nudges) so I was more ready to accept it.  That was the first step in me understanding just how pervasive and persistent (and destructive) that behavior is in my life and start to unpack what it's rooted in.

I haven't fully unpacked it, but I'm more quickly recognizing the feelings that precede that type of behavior.  I'm not saying that compassion isn't one of them but I'm starting to recognize that, in some cases, I'm more driven by fear and longing than I'd like to admit.   

[Notwendy]

I think a lot of us share these tendencies. I know I had to work on them with a counselor and co-dependency sponsor. They were my "normal" - the idea I had about being a good person. I was raised to do this, taking on this role with my BPD mother and it made my parents happy.

Finally I was able to see how enabling, caretaking, rescuing behaviors while not extending the same consideration or kindness to ourselves is not being a good person. It is taking away the person's own learning experiences- interfering with the the natural consequences that could teach them, and then they may learn to be more capable on their own. It is also not being kind to ourselves to disregard our own feelings and needs.

It also took some time to discern between enabling, caretaking and being charitable. When to help and when not to. It takes practice. It is hard to watch someone learn from their actions. My elderly widowed BPD mother is finally learning that if she spends all the money from a months check at one time, there isn't any left for the rest of the month. She didn't experience this when my father met all her needs financially. We did without to balance her wishes. It isn't comfortable watching her do this- I know she isn't starving, he left her with enough for that not to happen, but I now hear her say things like " I wanted to do this, but it was too expensive" and think about expenses.

With my H it is harder. He is competent. There is something that drives this emotionally and I find myself falling for it without thinking about it. It starts with a simple question- how do I, or what do I need to do this? and the next thing I know I am doing it.  The other day he said " how can I order a pizza" and the next thing I know I am sitting at the computer ordering a pizza for him. Asking him what toppings he wants while I do it. He can order his own pizza! But why he asks me and why I seem to be on autopilot to do it, I just don't know. If I wanted a pizza, I would just do it.

If we stop the caretaking, we face the "opinion" of others. When I cut back on caretaking my mother, the result was that my parents accused me of being a terrible person. In their minds, I really was being a terrible daughter. It is hard thinking our loved ones think we are terrible. I think we have to be secure in our own beliefs that we are not terrible when we don't caretake. As to the pizza, if I caught myself before I did it and said " you can call the pizza shop" the response might be " if you loved me you'd do it". Why is that love?  It doesn't make sense to me. If he was busy, sure, but he actually sat right next to me telling me what to order.

[Lucky Jim]

Finally I was able to see how enabling, caretaking, rescuing behaviors while not extending the same consideration or kindness to ourselves is not being a good person. It is taking away the person's own learning experiences- interfering with the the natural consequences that could teach them, and then they may learn to be more capable on their own. It is also not being kind to ourselves to disregard our own feelings and needs.

Nicely said, Notwendy.  Took me a long time to grasp that care-taking was my way to avoid caring for myself.  On the surface, it seems noble to help another, but the reality is that it fosters dependency and creates an unhealthy dynamic for both parties.  In the process, I failed to treat myself with love and acceptance, which undermined my self-confidence and self-esteem.  No more.  Self-love and accepting my flaws as part of being human are cornerstones for my recovery.

LuckyJim

[Cat Familiar]

If we stop the caretaking, we face the "opinion" of others. When I cut back on caretaking my mother, the result was that my parents accused me of being a terrible person. In their minds, I really was being a terrible daughter. It is hard thinking our loved ones think we are terrible. I think we have to be secure in our own beliefs that we are not terrible when we don't caretake. As to the pizza, if I caught myself before I did it and said " you can call the pizza shop" the response might be " if you loved me you'd do it". Why is that love?  It doesn't make sense to me. If he was busy, sure, but he actually sat right next to me telling me what to order.

I struggled with this a lot until I got an overview of how much I was being manipulated. I'm "wonderful" if I do the bidding of a pwBPD yet in an instant I'm "totally selfish and self-centered" if I expect them to take care of their own needs.

I had to get to a place of "F* it! If they want that (fill in the blank) they can figure out how to get it themselves. They're an adult. They're not stupid."

In doing that, I had to harden myself against the inevitable accusations of selfishness, not caring, whatever. Sometimes I would say, "Yeah, you're probably right." Then there was no juice left in their argument.

It was a difficult habit to break--feeling "on duty" and deriving a sense of self worth through pleasing another person. I had learned this pattern young, starting with my mother and continuing through two marriages to pwBPD. What finally got through to me was the lack of reciprocity. And I realized that I would never dangle approval of someone by whether or not they were doing my bidding.

[Notwendy]

Cat- I think your statement- lack of reciprocity- really says it. It something I have discussed with my H. We don't do nice things for people with an expectation of something in return, but what I have noticed with long term friendship is this reciprocity.

If I needed to do something in the afternoon, I could call a friend to carpool with me and pick up my kids. If a friend needed me to do this - she'd call me and I'd do it. Sometimes one of us would take the kids for ice cream after school and just pay for it. We didn't keep track of who did what. It all just kind of balanced out. Sometimes we'd do things for others that didn't balance out- but it was all in good Karma- a group of moms joined together with the common goal of doing what was best for the kids.

In my own home there is also teamwork, but it is more like two people doing their own thing for the benefit of the family. It wasn't a bad thing but it lacked reciprocity.  My H's job is our main support- and that's big. I am grateful. Yet, if I asked him to drive a child somewhere, or help with the dishes, I'd more likely get a defiant lecture about how that was my job and his job was his job and it wasn't fair for me to ask him to do my job since I didn't do his job. Honestly, it was easier to just do them myself and I do. But with lack of this kind of reciprocity comes a form of emotional distance.

With my BPD mother it is all about me serving her. I felt like Cinderella growing up and wished to be more than Cinderella with benefits in a marriage. But for that to happen, I have to change that role for myself.

[Red5]

I have certainly learned a lot over the past thirteen months.

Caretaking I have learned may have indeed have a lot in common with “rescuing”.

However, sometimes I think to myself, and then say aloud;… “better to let natural selection take place”.

Life is chocked full of tough choices, caretaking, saving, rescuing… and enabling ?

A mine field !

Red5

[pearlsw]

Hi pearlsw,

What a difficult situation to be in! I can understand the feelings you've expressed here. I'm glad you are writing it all out and getting such good advice.

I think this is such a huge point. Something that I've been learning in my own relationships and behavior.

I've realized that "saving" someone from pain is often an attempt to save myself from discomfort and hurt. It makes me so uncomfortable to see someone struggling or suffering. The way I've learned to deal with my own discomfort is to try to stop their suffering, to rescue,  or save them from pain.

I could, instead, focus on myself and my feeling of discomfort and learn what that is about, and save myself.

I would actually be modeling to the other person a way of dealing with his/her own hurt. In other words, it could really help the other person while it's helping me.

heartandwhole  

Hi all,

So many are seeing this issue so I don't want to put on blinders or miss something. I can say I carve this up a bit differently. I don't try to endlessly save him from the consequences of his stuff. For example, he is finally dealing with some consequences via his kids. They, I gather, are less and less inclined to visit him now as he does not do a good job controlling himself during their visits. He takes this out on me at times, but now they are delivering consequences with teeth in them. I am grateful. There will be no kid's visit in March. He had to give up a big issue with his ex over this. He's not having to pay for it, thankfully, but his kids are taking a visit with his ex into a non-Schengen covered area. There is only one kid left young enough to kidnap as she did previously, but he has given up fighting that battle with her.

I asked many times for changes on these issues, but could not get them. Them not coming and impacting an already difficult situation for me/him/us makes my life a bit easier.

He's been battling her in court for the last 8 years. We've only been together 7. It has been a giant shadow over us and one factor in nearly destroying us, and one reason I have given him/this so many extra chances. I did not protect him from his mistakes. My role for many years, that I chose, was to support him. It was simply off the scales though for that period of time, level of seriousness and expense both financially and personally.

The reason I, and even his ex lately to the shock of my "h" and I, are trying to work with him on financial issues is because this is too much for him to carry alone. The poor guy supports a small village of us. His choice, but we ought to help. I'd rather not go on in life than to see him or anyone financially ruined. If that makes me a heel so be it. It makes me cry to see him suffer despite all he's done (intentionally and unintentionally) to ruin my life to the extent he can/has. I have options. I can, I might not, but I can at least try to overcome all this. I don't try to "save" him from all consequences. I have historically tried to stop him from divorcing me when I don't think that is what he truly wants - all I have saved is the option for us to be together. Perhaps I did this one too many times, but thankfully he is not taking me up on any of the last offers I made because a few were too generous.

I am perhaps foolish in thinking I could guide a breakup via how I have done it in the past with non boyfriends. I have done it fairly well twice already in life. I had no doubts, til I met his illness, that I could do it again. And when/if it happens I'd still like to guide it, but I am sure he would have even more surprises in store for me... .He will not let me go easily I think... .the road is long on this... .

His illness is a total mind*&^!. I don't know how to deal with it instinctually. It defies logic and reason. It makes me afraid in ways I cannot even describe. It is confusing beyond all I've seen. I hope more researchers take this stuff on because it is an incredible aspect of the human experience that I think most folks can't even fathom is going on in the lives of so many of us.

[formflier]

The reason I, and even his ex lately to the shock of my "h" and I, are trying to work with him on financial issues is because this is too much for him to carry alone. The poor guy supports a small village of us. His choice, but we ought to help. 

Who says you "ought to"?

Who chose to support a small village?

Who "wants" this change?

Who determined it was "too much"?

What happens if you don't work with him?  Practically speaking, what does this look like?  (at this point it's all be theoretical... .I do feel a bit odd without financial context)

FF

[pearlsw]

I get that some of you aren’t okay with it based on your life experiences, that’s cool, but I am based on mine. He has a court case going with his ex right now, to be decided on V-day, as to whether or not he owes her about $64,000. She does not want the money either, much to my shock. She got something else in exchange for this. Her being able to travel with his three kids whom she previously kidnapped. He’d owe me a giant chunk too if we divorce this year. I am glad she does not want to make him destitute any more than I do. I don’t want him killing himself over financial woes either. Not worth it on any level.

[Jeffree]

It's funny. As much as we can list on the "they love me not" side of the ledger, and I'm talking horrible abuses in many cases here and people who have even cast us asunder in lousy ways, there is still a human element that warrants our best discretion when we are faced with certain limitations of the BPD in our life. That's not to say THE best discretion can even be implemented, but the best discretion WE can use at any given time is usually what we are capable of.

Yeah, you might look back all along the way, and think, "Man, that was stupid of me to think, say, do, etc." But the reality is that you can only do what you can do.

J

[formflier]

Hey... can you put this in context.

He pays out 64k and has 2k remaining... .I got it.  Destitute.

He pays out 64k and has 200k remaining... umm, right... .I'm going to stand by my advice.

What specifically in your life experience leads you to believe people should not abide by the laws?

There are exceptions, I get that, hence courts and appeal processes.  If that is the case, what specifically is it about him that exempts him (in your judgement) from the laws governing this potential matter.  If forced to argue it in court what would your argument be? (for the sake of organizing your thoughts)

FF

[Red5]

"That's not to say THE best discretion can even be implemented, but the best discretion WE can use at any given time is usually what we are capable of."

"Yeah, you might look back all along the way, and think, "Man, that was stupid of me to think, say, do, etc." But the reality is that you can only do what you can do."

J

Yes, very perplexing, .like chasing a leak in the plumbing, or else an electrical fault in a system... .just when you get all the water works, and the Christmas lights working again as they should "pop", .another leak appears, and another lamp goes out somewhere... .

Another silly Red5 analogy is keeping an old classic car running... .when you get one thing fixed up, and operating as it should, then something else breaks down... .never stops, a constant "maintenance process"... .

Learn something new everyday... .but in my own experience, these tools we learn about and use, are indeed "shelf life'ed", and a perishable commodity so to speak... .as it does seem the our sig other pw/BPD will develop a "work around procedure" so to speak to our implemented communication tools... .like when a virus becomes immune to treatment.

I have heard it described also as "moving the goal post", .or changing the rules mid-game... .

This is constantly ongoing paradigm, and is mentally, and as well physically (health wise) exhausting.

Red5  

[Notwendy]

I get that some of you aren’t okay with it based on your life experiences, that’s cool, but I am based on mine.


Pearl, it is actually the opposite. My place of comfort it to not see someone I care about in the situation like your H is. I feel most comfortable when I am being supportive and helpful and it would make me cringe to be in a situation where the law resulted in someone being financially strained. I understand the feeling to want to be kind as much as possible.

It took a whole lot of personal work to reframe my idea of being kind and supportive and be able to discern what is actually being kind and when being kind is actually not acting in the person's best interest. If we also look at ourselves, we can ask - are we being kind in order to manage our own uncomfortable feelings when we see someone learning from the consequences.

I am not suggesting that we are not ever kind or intervening. Surely do not let someone drive drunk, or wander into a dangerous situation. But for example if someone doesn't pay their bills, or rent, and we pay them for them, they don't learn to manage money. We may do this for someone who has unexpected circumstances, but if it happens again- when we see repetitive behavior- we may see that helping isn't really helping.

I am not comfortable with not helping, with not being my version of kind. It makes me cringe. I don't like feeling like the bad guy but there are times when I have to do if I don't want to be enabling. The person I care about is not often happy about that, or happy with me. However, once I could see that in some situations, rescuing is not helping, then it is up to me to manage those bad feelings for the sake of the emotional growth of that person.

[formflier]

  We may do this for someone who has unexpected circumstances, but if it happens again- when we see repetitive behavior- we may see that helping isn't really helping.
 

This is the crux of where my questions come from.

Is this an expected outcome?

Is this repetitive?

Which leads to the final issue of enabling no growth versus allowing growth due to experiencing life.

FF

[pearlsw]

My relationship had been teetering on the brink of extinction for the last month before that and I don't know what exactly I said or did shortly before flying home for a funeral, but I guess I "saved" it... .(?) I can't tell exactly and am too exhausted and on the verge of a cold to talk it over with him... .and he left town for a few days any way so we can't... .which is a relief, but I also know nothing has really changed and literally NOTHING is in place to make it better... .

But some recent interventions from family and friends have me leaning more toward throwing in the towel... .as hard as that would be... .I feel at times like I don't have as much say over when and how this ends... .I am just tired of the high stress levels and the way he makes drama. Ultimately it is a question of my health and well-being. I would have liked to keep at this for awhile longer, before I left, but everyone I spoke with while in the States had an influence on me one way or another and I just don't know... .But I've come back and he's so in love and... .yet he's also being controlling, which I can't stand about him... .It is totally unacceptable to me.

With another set of life circumstances I'd ask for a break from the relationship entirely so I could explore (in isolation) my feelings for him and see if I really have it in me to sign up for another tour of duty on this life, but... .It is all or nothing. If it ends I am 1000% certain (we live in separate countries) there will no going back to this - ever.

Hi FF,

If we don’t run out of road here I am happy to satisfy your curiosity on these financial issues. I hear that this is of interest/concern to you and you mean to offer support by getting into the weeds on this. It is not an issue I was seeking advice on however.

If I can gently and humbly redirect to my original point here…I saved my relationship, but then wasn’t sure how I felt about that. Now I am seeing for myself that what I’ve also been trying to “save” is the breakup itself. I know how to do breakups with nons, I do not know how to do this kind. I don’t know how to have the kinds of discussions I need to get us to that point if I choose to take it in that direction.  I wasn’t even willing to concede defeat on making this relationship work until the last few weeks.

Hi Notwendy,

What I feel is happening on a divorce, if it happens, is not about rescuing. It is about balancing. I want to balance the needs of all the parties involved. The state will do what the state does. I can go along or not go along with that based on my views of that.

I hear that you are seeing other issues and this makes you personally reflective. That’s fine. A lot of posts raise issues that make me reflective too and rethink my own stuff.

Hi Go,

Thanks for sharing your thought process with me…this gives me another model to consider and I appreciate that!

To all as this post hits its 6 page limit:

Where I am at is considering if I want to go forward in this relationship or not. If I do I want to understand for myself why and if not I want to be clear about why. That is where I am at and what my needs are.

If posts inspire new ideas or themes I strongly urge all readers to create more original posts so we can chew on those topics collectively - I am sure they will help a a lot of people and that is the overall goal here.

The kind of space I am trying to carve out here in my posts, because I don’t have it in regular life, is to think out what matters to me and where I want my life to head.

[Tattered Heart]

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