I would really like to reconnect on some level...

[EdR]

Hello,

I am normally active in the failed/detachment boards, but because of the topic title I thought this was the best place to post.

My story in short: strong friendship with a girl for about 2,5 years. Sudden change in her behaviour as she started painting me black. The devaluation phase was horrible and I never saw it coming At times she seemed to split white again... .but eventually I couldn't deal with the Silent Treatment anymore and asked her if she truly wanted to cut off all contact. She confirmed she did in a weird and concise message.

2 months later I wished her a Merry Christmas and she wished me the same as well. I was happy and hoped to be able to achieve a situation of Low Contact. So I have sent her 2 or 3 very concise and lighthearted messages since Christmas. She did not reply.

I would really like to achieve a situation in which low contact is possible. To be able to get to hear how she is doing. I would really like to get your help with this.

Questions like:
-) how long should I wait?
-) should all messages be lighthearted or trivial even? Or should I try and directly ask her for the possibility of LC?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[EdR]

Some complicating factors:

-) a lot of people believe her behaviour was triggered by getting feelings for me. I doubted that for a very long time, but I later learned there might be quite some truth in this...
-) I just assumed for a long time that the problem was ME. That she might have gotten the impression that I was suddenly interested in being more than friends. I know for a fact that two of her friends were always talking about us in such a way... .trying to influence her.
-) I DID learn these past months that I DO have feelings for her. So maybe she noticed that even a lot earlier than I did myself?
-) I am extremely afraid of her painting me black. And of her splitting in general. So I am walking on eggshells.

[Tattered Heart]

Hi EdR,

Welcome to the bettering board. In the past, how often did you guys talk? Was there a point where too much communication seemed to overwhelm her? Has she initiated conversation first?

If you think that starting to dialogue with her would be a possibility, you might check out our workshop on Validation and SET. This could be a way to start moving beyond niceties to a full on conversation, especially by just asking her questions when she shares something with you, even small somethings.

[CMJ]

Hi EdR

There are a lot of similarities in your story and mine.
Close female friend, seemingly split black multiple times, silent treatments multiple times, blocked on social media multiple times, there's even been times where I wondered if she wants something more due to things she's said. I could write an essay but I fear I'd be hijacking your thread 
We too are currently not talking. I sent her a Christmas card with an Amazon voucher in it; I've seen a post of hers on social media that showed the card displayed on her shelf, and had an email from Amazon advising the voucher had been redeemed... .no thank you or any response though. Saw her exiting a shop opposite work a week or so ago, sent her an IM (we work in the same building) saying hi, that she looked well and I hoped that's the case... .no response. That's all I've tried since October.
Bloody frustrating isn't it?

I can't offer anything regarding LC as I have no experience of that myself, just wanted to show some support as people dealing with BPD friends are in the minority. You're not alone 

[EdR]

Thank you CMJ! I really appreciate your input! There was this member who had a similar situation as well on the failed/detachment boards, but unfortunately he left after the creation of his thread.
So I am 'glad' to have another member in a similar position. Thanks!

Hi Tattered Heart! Yeah, I posted my original story months ago, but I'll try to answer your questions in a concise way:

-) there was digital and real life (=face to face, 'irl' from now on) contact. One could say she almost always initiated the irl contact. I most of the times initiated digital contact. There was no real difference between them; she was just as open irl as digitally. She WAS a very different person around her two best female friends though.
-) I noticed a change in her irl contact after more than 2 years. She became more... .well... .shy... .evasive. I asked her about it, but she said nothing was the matter.
-) my feelings were right though as at some point things started to go haywire. There was no irl communication possible anymore and limited digital communication. I asked her several times to talk about the situation in person, but she suddenly only wanted to talk about it digitally.
-) the digital communication just seemed to not work at all. I was painted black and thus she split black.

[RDMaggie]

Hi there!

A long term BPD friend (think 20+ years) is what brought me here.

In the past my friend has always returned. The best advice I can give you is to just be polite and open. My friend has utilized ST for numerous reasons in the past, with various desired effects. Sometimes she does it to "punish" me, sometimes she does it in hopes that I will grovel and "fight for"'our friendship, other times she cannot emotionally handle seeing someone else be happy or have the things she would like in life.

There are times we've had NC and she always reappears, even if out last connection was years prior and ended on a negative note.

That being said, you cannot "make" someone speak to you, even if it's only occasionally to check on their well being. You say she isn't responding to your messages, have you considered sending a message that says "I care about your well being. I'm open to communicating if you ever feel comfortable re establishing communication." And then just maybe letting it be? That's a way to let her know directly how you feel. Don't include "this is the last time I'll ask" or anything of thy nature in which she might feel pressured or frustrated to respond.

This gives her the power she's looking for and also defuses the situation a bit, she's isnt having to guess what your angle is in sending her a silly message or talking about the weather.

Just a thought.

[Skip]

have you considered sending a message that says "I care about your well being. I'm open to communicating if you ever feel comfortable re establishing communication."

Taking this on the back of a compliment that she will endear... .

I think the options really depend on what you have said already. What did you say and how long ago... .

[EdR]

Hi RDMaggie!

Thank you for your reply. I have said something like you proposed in my (not so) final communication when she confirmed to want to cut off all contact. Very open, very gentle etc... My next communication was more than 2 months after that by sending a concise "Merry Christmas" text, to which she did reply.

I do care a lot about her, but I am very hesitant to use the word 'caring' right now in my texts. It seems to be a possible emotional trigger... .And I am quite afraid of the possible consequences of triggering her.

I know I can not MAKE her reply. And that's not my intention. I just wish to learn what my best chances are at re-establishing some form of low contact.

[Skip]

I have said something like you proposed in my (not so) final communication

Then I would not say it again.

You exchanged two words at Christmas. She responded. If you have some safe news, share that. See if she responds.

[EdR]

Then I would not say it again.

You exchanged two words at Christmas. She responded. If you have some safe news, share that. See if she responds.

Thanks Skip! What would you personally consider to be 'safe'? (Any member may chime in   )
Can it be a question? Or just an update how I am doing?

I would think of:
-) something not TOO big
-) something not too SMALL or trivial (otherwise she may feel engulfed)
-) something absolutely non-emotional (or am I wrong here?... .  Emotional communication was very much present during the idealisation phase)

[Tattered Heart]

"Hey, how's it going?"

"Thinking of you. What have you been up to?"

Casual. Limited. No pressure. Simple.

[Skip]

"Hey, how's it going?"

"Thinking of you. What have you been up to?"

Casual. Limited. No pressure. Simple.

These might possibly come off as rekindling efforts as said above. 

I think, "hey, I finally climbed My Everest".  Not person. Not reconnecting. Easy to respond to.

[EdR]

These might possibly come off as rekindling efforts as said above.  

I think, "hey, I finally climbed My Everest".  Not personal. Not reconnecting. Easy to respond to.

Booking my trip as we speak :-p

[RDMaggie]

I know I can not MAKE her reply. And that's not my intention. I just wish to learn what my best chances are at re-establishing some form of low contact.

I understand that your intentions are noble, however from a female perspective if I had been clear that I wanted NC from an individual, especially a male who I may or may not have had deeper feelings for at one point, I would be very offput by that person not respecting my boundaries. It's not BPD exclusive, people are allowed to end contact with an individual.

I have been in similar situations, where contact was ended by myself and my desire was clearly stated. When that individual continued contacting me, even about "safe" topics and I never once responded, it made me uncomfortable. It's hard to say what her rationale is behind the NC and it could very well be distorted thoughts, as is common with BPD.

I would suggest sending a final message something to the effect that I mentioned, and leaving out the caring part if you believe that will be a trigger.

[Skip]

I have been in similar situations, where contact was ended by myself and my desire was clearly stated. When that individual continued contacting me, even about "safe" topics and I never once responded, it made me uncomfortable. It's hard to say what her rationale is behind the NC and it could very well be distorted thoughts, as is common with BPD.

I would suggest sending a final message something to the effect that I mentioned, and leaving out the caring part if you believe that will be a trigger.

If she had ignored two communications, I would say it is done until she contacts you. RDMaggie is right, no means no, and it certainly means no if communications are ignored.

Given that she responded to your last communication, you are probably alright to go one more, but if that is not answered, that should be the end of it.

[EdR]

Hi RDMaggie,

I know... .that's what makes me a little uncomfortable too. But it is just really hard. I do not understand and I feel like ending all contact without the possibility of a final ending conversation or other form of closure is cruel as well. We are not talking about some random guy or girl I met at a party or something. It feels more like my sister is asking me to go NC without any explanation. I would not want to cross her boundaries, but I would certainly still love her. So I couldn't do it in the long run.

I thought about this before I started this thread. The only other option I see is this:
Honestly explain her that I still would appreciate to hear from her from time to time and ask her whether or not that would be possible.

For me that would probably be the most noble and honest thing to do. However as is also clear from the replies in this thread, it probably is not the best approach... .

Please help me guys if I am wrong. I just think this is hard... .

[EdR]

If she had ignored two communications, I would say it is done until she contacts you. RDMaggie is right, no means no, and it certainly means no if communications are ignored.

Given that she responded to your last communication, you are probably alright to go one more, but if that is not answered, that should be the end of it.

Then it is already too late. I managed to remain NC for those 2 months until my Christmas message. But I asked her how she was doing weeks later. She did not reply.

[Skip]

Then she knows your thoughts.

... .and her actions say, don't contact me.

Times change, things change, feelings change and one day she may take you up on your offer, but the ball is in her court now.

That's not very settling, I know. It's a very difficult thing to work through. Silence is hard.

Its the right thing to do.

[EdR]

Then she knows your thoughts.

... .and her actions say, don't contact me.

Times change, things change, feelings change and one day she may take you up on your offer, but the ball is in her court now.

That's not very settling, I know. It's a very difficult thing to work through. Silence is hard.

Its the right thing to do.

So I shouldn't do the "honestly explain her that I still would appreciate to hear from her from time to time and ask her whether or not that would be possible" thing either? Not even in a few months?

That's gonna be hard... .I just wish she could do LC... .That would be so much easier for me... .and my guess is... for her as well.

[Skip]

So I shouldn't do the "honestly explain her that I still would appreciate to hear from her from time to time and ask her whether or not that would be possible" thing either? Not even in a few months?

That's gonna be hard... .I just wish she could do LC... .That would be so much easier for me... .and my guess is... for her as well.

She is an adult and she could have responded to the notes you send and she didn't. Even if it is better for her, that's not your call.

It's really hard.

I had two women in my life that had this approach to past relationships - the doors were closed forever.

One of them was a very mature, intelligent women and this was her idea of healthy. I know when I dated her, I never questioned if she had men in her orbit. I liked that. I appreciated this when O dated her... .it was a little hard after we broke up because even 5 years after the fact, we had an opportunity to chat and she didn't want to.

The other one was an adult child of an alcoholic and she had attachment  issues. She had zero contact with past relationships, had no gifts, no mementos, nothing - when we split, she didn't want any contact with me. When she got married and dumped all her friends and had her husband dump his. Most think this is a bit odd. I see her a few times a year, I know better than to even make eye contact. It is what it is.

Life goes on.

[EdR]

Thanks Skip. I appreciate your honesty. I will do my very best to respect the NC and stop worrying about her.

It is a long and difficult process, but like you said: it is what it is.

I should try and wear my mental armour when I see her again. Last time she greeted me  just after ignoring my 'how are you doing' text. That's confusing, but something I should work on I guess... .

[Skip]

Why not just go with the flow... .if she reaches out publicly be gracious.

She may not want to talk to you for fear she will send mixed signals.

[Lady Itone]

So I shouldn't do the "honestly explain her that I still would appreciate to hear from her from time to time and ask her whether or not that would be possible" thing either? Not even in a few months?

That's gonna be hard... .

My vote is a strong no. She's made it clear in both her words and her behavior she isn't intetested in contact. She knows she can contact you if she wants. It's hard but just stay strong.

[EdR]

So I had a night's sleep... .at least I slept, but it feels like I am back at square one.

Now I am back trying to rationally explain her behaviour. Is she afraid of sending out mixed signals? Does she hate me? Why? Is she afraid to catch more feelings? Is she afraid of me wanting more? But then... .why the extreme behaviour? Why the sudden change from seeing me as 'the best [insert any compliment here]' or 'the only normal [insert something else here]' to... .well... .complete devaluation and now discard?

All kinds of similar questions haunt me.

[CMJ]

I know exactly what you mean, I get thoughts like that too.
Why don't I deserve a proper goodbye/closure? How can she treat me this way after all the support and encouragement I've shown her over the years? What did she mean when she did X? Why can't she help me understand her position so I can do the right thing? Surely displaying the card I sent shows it meant something to her, but if so why not say thanks? etc etc They do begin to fade with time and as you learn more.

Can I just ask, is this the first time she's behaved this way towards you?
I ask as my friend has reinforced with me that she never intends for it to be permanent. If I give her enough time and then reach out in a friendly way she's always come back. She's even thanked me for not giving up on her before.

For example; the first time she cut me off she threatened to report me if I kept contacting her. This was before I knew about BPD, before I learned to take a look at my own behaviour, and I was suffering from depression at the time too. One week I'd contact her angry, the next pleading, the next JADEing because I just couldn't understand how she could just cut me off mid conversation. It really hurt to have someone I thought I had a close connection with to suddenly seem to see me as worthless. When she said she'd report me, I responded with something along the lines of "Ok, if you're going to resort to threats I'll not speak to you anymore". She then got all defensive and tried explaining that she wasn't threatening. Surely if you wanted someone gone you'd be glad they finally got the message and be unconcerned about their opinion of you?

The fact she wished you a merry Christmas too strikes me as similar. I'm sure that if you or I were in her position and got a merry Christmas text from someone we didn't wish to hear from, we'd have ignored it instead of responding so as not to encourage further communication attempts.

[EdR]

Thank you CMJ. I would like to stress that I really, really appreciate your help. I am really happy to have found some people who are in a similar situation.

To answer your question: the answer depends on the perspective. For me the 2,5 year hallmark was when the devaluation started. Before that I would have never thought about BPD. Well... .I actually did in a way... I thought 'wow... I am so happy this is different than my previous equally close friendship with a woman (a BPD experience) . So it is possible for a person to remain "normal" and  "sane". Before the devaluation I just saw the "idealisation phase" as her true normal behaviour.

But if one would look closely into this devaluation phase, there were times when she tried to re-establish contact or seemed to have split white again. But all of those were eventually swiftly followed by another round of devaluation.
So was it one big devaluation phase or several smaller ones?  

The strongest and most lasting return to form was before the summer holidays. I congratulated her and all of a sudden I was her "favourite [... .]" again and she seemed just as spontaneous as before.
One exception: she did NOT want to talk about what happened before. I feel that simple fact eventually built up to a new or continued devaluation phase after more than 2 months.
She than more or less showed erratic behaviour (loudly greeting me on the street, knocking on the bus window etc., but at the same time ignoring my communication). That's when I told her how confusing this all is and whether or not this meant she wanted to cut off all contact?
That was October 2017.

[Lady Itone]

The fact she wished you a merry Christmas too strikes me as similar. I'm sure that if you or I were in her position and got a merry Christmas text from someone we didn't wish to hear from, we'd have ignored it instead of responding so as not to encourage further communication attempts.

We women, we're conditioned from a very young age to be nice, be polite, and be very careful not to hurt men's feelings--and for good reason. Rejecting a man can be a delicate situation, we never know how he'll react. Men have been known to stalk, to get angry or violent, and even kill women who reject them. Sometimes, a woman might tell a man she's not interested in having contact--and she means it, but then, she might feel bad that he's trying to be nice, and we don't want to appear to be a total b***h. Maybe she was feeling good and calm for a minute, and she replied to a text, briefly and politely, hoping to diffuse your bad feelings and keep the peace. I can totally see myself doing this/have done this trying to keep a man from hating me. It is NOT meant as invitation to more contact.

Of course, I don't know for sure that's what's going on here, could be something totally different, it's all pure speculation what's going on in another person's head. But, like I said, I can totally see myself returning a merry xmas text from someone I don't actually want contact from just to keep the peace and so I come off as a kind, reasonable human, you know? Or, she's messing with your head. Either way, it's best to back off.

[EdR]

We women, we're conditioned from a very young age to be nice, be polite, and be very careful not to hurt men's feelings--and for good reason. Rejecting a man can be a delicate situation, we never know how he'll react. Men have been known to stalk, to get angry or violent, and even kill women who reject them. Sometimes, a woman might tell a man she's not interested in having contact--and she means it, but then, she might feel bad that he's trying to be nice, and we don't want to appear to be a total b***h. Maybe she was feeling good and calm for a minute, and she replied to a text, briefly and politely, hoping to diffuse your bad feelings and keep the peace. I can totally see myself doing this/have done this trying to keep a man from hating me. It is NOT meant as invitation to more contact.

Of course, I don't know for sure that's what's going on here, could be something totally different, it's all pure speculation what's going on in another person's head. But, like I said, I can totally see myself returning a merry xmas text from someone I don't actually want contact from just to keep the peace and so I come off as a kind, reasonable human, you know? Or, she's messing with your head. Either way, it's best to back off.

I get that... .but I am not that kind of guy. And she could and should know. The worst thing I did was to say I didn't understand the idiocy of her behaviour. She went even more haywire after that.

That was after she did something... .well... .not so nice... And before I accepted that she was indeed showing BPD traits.

She basically did some horrible stuff, but I never lost my temper or did anything to hurt her. That is truly the only case in which I was 'less nice'. But even then I did NOT attack her personally. I never called her an idiot or something.

But tbh in her devaluation phase it didn't and doesn't even matter what I do or don't do. It all will be used against me... . 

[CMJ]

Lady Itone

I'd not considered it that way. I agree not crowding her is the best way forward.

But if one would look closely into this devaluation phase, there were times when she tried to re-establish contact or seemed to have split white again. But all of those were eventually swiftly followed by another round of devaluation.
So was it one big devaluation phase or several smaller ones?  

Hard to tell. Feelings = facts, and the feelings can change at the drop of a hat.
The lack of consistancy can be incredibly frustrating as you don't know how to proceed. Does she really want you gone? Is she wanting you to prove you care? Is she projecting on to you? Does she have a new "favourite" but is keeping you on hold as backup? It puts you in limbo as you don't know whether to prepare for life without them or not. You feel sort of stuck.

Hard as it is, leave her be for now and do your own thing. Spend time with other friends and family, do what makes you happy, and try not to wait for her. If she's made attempts to reconnect in the past chances are she will again.

Take solace in the fact that you're not doomed to repeat this loop, as the "healthier" adult you're able to cultivate long lasting and meaningful friendships. If your friend is anything like mine, she'll burn through friends like there's no tomorrow, and be left with just acquaintances that don't really know her or care all that much. You should hear what some of her "friends" say about her behind her back. Sad thing is she once said to me that she knows she'll end up alone if she carries on acting this way, and yet... .

[EdR]

Lady Itone

I'd not considered it that way. I agree not crowding her is the best way forward.

Hard to tell. Feelings = facts, and the feelings can change at the drop of a hat.
The lack of consistancy can be incredibly frustrating as you don't know how to proceed. Does she really want you gone? Is she wanting you to prove you care? Is she projecting on to you? Does she have a new "favourite" but is keeping you on hold as backup? It puts you in limbo as you don't know whether to prepare for life without them or not. You feel sort of stuck.

Hard as it is, leave her be for now and do your own thing. Spend time with other friends and family, do what makes you happy, and try not to wait for her. If she's made attempts to reconnect in the past chances are she will again.

Take solace in the fact that you're not doomed to repeat this loop, as the "healthier" adult you're able to cultivate long lasting and meaningful friendships. If your friend is anything like mine, she'll burn through friends like there's no tomorrow, and be left with just acquaintances that don't really know her or care all that much. You should hear what some of her "friends" say about her behind her back. Sad thing is she once said to me that she knows she'll end up alone if she carries on acting this way, and yet... .

Tbh It's not like I have this can of friends ready to be opened. I recently told people in another thread that that's basically something which developed slowly but surely. I never needed a lot of friends, just a few good ones.
However, for the past few years I noticed that we were slowly growing apart. Moving across the country, leaving the country and in most cases family life came around the corner.
It's not like they are not there anymore. But it is different.

Regarding her: she is like a chameleon. She told me about her old friends and I would think her true self (if there is any true core personality left) is very much like them. Shy, not very social, but very kind.
They weren't popular though and she left them for two popular 'mean girl' types. She has been with them for years and they started to say it is weird she was spending so much time with me (and I blame them more than I blame her). She is a totally different person around them. Her old personality still shines through when she is not with them though.

But it is like a strange r/s. She 'needs' them to live the popular life. Go with parties to them etc. etc.
They 'need' her because she attracts a lot of guys because of her looks. And she is someone who they can play 'Queen Bee' over. She is the 'follower' in her friend group. They don't even treat her well... .