Our daughter-in-law has cut us off from seeing our grandchildren

[Depression = 72% of members]

Just before the holidays, my daughter-in-law (DIL) came over and raged about a distortion campaign she had launched against me 5 years ago.  We resolved that issue at the time (I thought).  It resurfaced (unprovoked) before this past Thanksgiving  (5 years later).  The time period inbetween was okay - not great but not terrible.  With this current encounter, she made the same accusations, had a few new twists, raged at me in front of my son and husband.  Previous rage incidents had been between just she and I.  My husband and son were shocked to witness her behavior.  I stayed calm and non-inflammatory.  She stomped out of the house.  She refuses to speak to either my husband or myself.  We did not see them at Thanksgiving, Christmas, or for either grandchild's birthday. 

I am currently taking a break from the situation.  I'm not certain there is anything I can say to change the way DIL thinks other than to compromise myself and pretend I said the things I'm being accused of (I did not).  However, doing nothing likely means no contact with our grandchildren.  Our son is in denial and enables DIL's behavior.  He says I didn't say things "right" and I should agree with everything DIL says and things will be fine.

Any insights or suggestions from the non-BPD community who are/have experienced this type of situation?

[HolyGhost]

Just before the holidays, my daughter-in-law (DIL) came over and raged about a distortion campaign she had launched against me 5 years ago.  We resolved that issue at the time (I thought).  It resurfaced (unprovoked) before this past Thanksgiving  (5 years later).  The time period inbetween was okay - not great but not terrible.  With this current encounter, she made the same accusations, had a few new twists, raged at me in front of my son and husband.  Previous rage incidents had been between just she and I.  My husband and son were shocked to witness her behavior.  I stayed calm and non-inflammatory.  She stomped out of the house.  She refuses to speak to either my husband or myself.  We did not see them at Thanksgiving, Christmas, or for either grandchild's birthday. 

I am currently taking a break from the situation.  I'm not certain there is anything I can say to change the way DIL thinks other than to compromise myself and pretend I said the things I'm being accused of (I did not).  However, doing nothing likely means no contact with our grandchildren.  Our son is in denial and enables DIL's behavior.  He says I didn't say things "right" and I should agree with everything DIL says and things will be fine.

Any insights or suggestions from the non-BPD community who are/have experienced this type of situation?

[jnssbc202]

All I can say to this right now is that I know your pain. My BPDsis cut me off from seeing my nephew. I never met him and fear I never will. My parents are taking emotional abuse from my BPDsis. I think it's in large part because they don't fully understand/want to see the my sister suffers from BPD. My mom tells me she's constantly walking on eggshells with my BPDsis because she fears my BPDsis will cut them off from seeing their grandson (again). It's like we (me, you, my parents, and my other non-BPD sister) are between a rock and a hard place. It seems like a lose-lose situation. It's scary. It's confusing. It hurts. I am sorry you are going through this 

[Woolspinner2000]

Welcome HolyGhost, 

Thank you for sharing your first post with us! This is a great site where there are many others who are going through similar issues to yours. It is so hard when a pwBPD accuses unjustly. I'm really sorry because it hurts a lot, and it doesn't go away easily.

Jnssbc202 had a good point when she mentioned it is about the BPD. It really is. A pwBPD doesn't regulate like healthy people do. Was there some type of rejection she perceived from that situation 5 years ago? I know my uBPDm never seemed to forget when she was rejected, even way back. It was pretty awful how she kept track of everyone's faults. Is that how you often feel too?

Here are two links that you may find helpful.

Empathetic Listening and Active Listening

A 3 Minute Lesson on Ending Conflict

 
Wools

[Turkish]

The links Wools shared can be helpful.  It isn't enabling,  but realizing that the pwBPD can have severely limited emotional functioning skills.

What kind of contact do you have with your son,  is he sticking to his coping script?

What was the incident that DIL won't let go?

T

[HolyGhost]

The alleged incident was at a wedding celebration for my son and DIL.  She invited her maternal grandmother and aunt (her mother abandoned she and her sister when she was just an infant).  She hadn't seen these relatives for over 10 years.  Her father committed suicide when she was a teen.  GM and aunt didn't even come to the funeral.  I think our DIL was hoping for some sort of family reconnection.  She only has the one sister who lives on the other side of the country (they are in contact).  The grandmother was sweet.  The aunt was cold and stand offish.  The party (we paid for) was wonderful.  My DIL was pregnant (got pregnant on their destination wedding 5 mos. earlier) and they were doing the gender reveal.  We had a fabulous time.  We were going to get together the next day to get to know her relatives better.  My son called in the morning and said don't bother coming over.  DIL hysterical.  The aunt called and said they were already on the road back home (14 hours away) because my husband and I were ungracious to her and the GM at the party the night before.  That started the ball rolling.  Two weeks later, my DIL's best friend called my son and told him that I had a dark conversation about my DIL with her father (had met him for the first time at the party) and I stated I thought my DIL was mentally ill, I thought her baby would be mentally ill, and she was going to make a terrible mother.  Two weeks after that, two of our DIL's best friends also called my son and said I had made the same comments to them (also had only met them at the party).  We have never had mental health issues in our family.  My son believed the stories (completely untrue) and sided with his wife. After all, who would call and allege such things if they hadn't actually been said? No amount of conversation, logic, etc. would budge him.  Our DIL completely excluded us throughout her pregnancy.  We did eventually meet our grandchild and were able to establish a relationship for the last 4 years.  It wasn't perfect, with myself and husband constantly on eggshells with our behavior, responses, etc.  Even my son doesn't know what triggered the current revisit of this accusation that took place 4 years ago. We have had not one negative incident in all this time. It was just before Thanksgiving and he said DIL has a really hard time around the holidays.  His position is that I need to apologize to DIL for anything I might have said that upset her.  He instructed me not to offer any differing opinion to her accusations.  It's very difficult to apologize for things I never said.  She keeps asking me why I would say such things.  I'm the most awful person she's ever met.  I need to be held accountable for my actions.

[Woolspinner2000]

Sounds as if there was some false beliefs going on from the celebration, as well as triggering from contact with her past family. Perhaps it has brought up pain from her childhood. It is hard to say, but in the end it is the fall out that is so hard on us.

Those with BPD do not know how to self regulate or self sooth, and they try to do it by attacking others. Seems distorted, and it really is. They are not able to regulate those strong emotions. One of the common expressions of such behavior is by projections. What happens to be going on inside of a pwBPD is projected onto others and it leaves for a very messy situation.

Does that sound as if it may be the case with your DIL? I've heard other posters here on the site say that they have apologized for things they didn't say or do so that they can be in a relationship with their grandchildren. Is there a way that you may be able to validate her feelings? What do you think of these options? I truly don't know what I would do in your situation, but I wouldn't want to lie and say I said something that I didn't. Hopefully others will be able to share their thoughts as well.

 
Wools

[Turkish]

Two weeks later, my DIL's best friend called my son and told him that I had a dark conversation about my DIL with her father (had met him for the first time at the party) and I stated I thought my DIL was mentally ill, I thought her baby would be mentally ill, and she was going to make a terrible mother

So these are complete lies. Do you think her family said some things, and you and your H were convenient scapegoats?

[Notwendy]

Dysfunction tends to run in families and your DIL's seems to be an example of that. I wish I knew how to undo a smear campaign. My BPD mother has done this with me and there are relatives on her side who believe her and don't speak to me. I grieved the loss of those relationships but also didn't think that speaking up would make a difference. It would put them in a her word or my word situation. It seems they already decided to believe her.

However, not seeing your grandchild is very difficult.

Your son is in a tough place. He loves his wife, and really is in the difficult position of either going along with her or his better self- I think at some level he knows that you aren't what she says you are. IMHO, this will be an ongoing situation- whether to go along with her version of reality or his. This isn't about you. What happened with you is a reflection of the situation he is in.

For me, my experience with this was with my father and BPD mother. I had conflicts with her. She tends to see people as being on her side, or not her side.

A helpful model for me is the Karpman triangle. The strongest arrangement for my parents seemed to be my mother in victim mode and my father as rescuer and the two of them would bond against her perceived persecutor. This took the focus off their own issues- and on to someone else. This arrangement seemed to need a "persecutor".

I know it is difficult, but I think your decision to "take a break" from this is a wise one. I think Turkish said it well when he mentioned convenient scapegoat. It seems her whole family is dysfunctional and may work that way- blame their issues on something or someone. For me, stepping off the triangle involves taking a neutral, non reactive stand- like you are- not reacting to the situation even though it is difficult for you.


Taking a long term look- children grow up and older children are not as cute or compliant as little ones. Once we kids had minds of our own and began to speak up, we became a challenge to my mother. Even though she openly disliked my father's family ( and they hardly saw us when we were little ) she was happy to let us stay with them when we were older and teens.  I think they stayed out of the drama between my parents, but also were willing to welcome us.  As a result, we are still close to that side of the family and my children are close to their cousins on that side. We are not close to my mother's family who seemed to be supportive of her, but kept us at a distance. By staying neutral, and yet, not cutting off your son- he may decide to reach out to you one day. I hope so.

[HolyGhost]

All of your insights are helpful.  I definitely believe my DIL is projecting her worst fears onto me when she says I think she is mentally ill, will be a bad mother, and child might be mentally ill.  She lived with pillars of mental illness her whole life.  The mother figure has also been a sad one for her.  I think there is some transference of her terrible feelings about her mother and stepmother onto me.  She is also really unsure about the type of mother she is.  She told me a few times that her father always said, "You're just like your mother".  What a terrible burden for her.  We've always had a wonderful family life with a close family.  I'm sure DIL looks at me and sees me as a significant threat and a reminder of everything she didn't have in her young life. 

I don't think her own family made up any of the things she has accused me of.  I think she is simply projecting.  There doesn't seem to be any doubt about her deepest fears.  I do think that when the GM and aunt left abruptly the very next morning (remember she hadn't seen them in 10 years), it caused all the feelings of abandonment from when her mother left when she was just an infant. 

We'll see how all this plays out. I'm not taking a hard stand one way or the other.  Thanks for your thoughts.

[Turkish]

I think there is a validation target here. 

She is also really unsure about the type of mother she is.  She told me a few times that her father always said, "You're just like your mother".  What a terrible burden for her.

It is hard being hurt and even angry yourself,  but the validation tools can help open a dialog. 

https://bpdfamily.com/content/communication-skills-dont-be-invalidating

I'm not saying you were invalidating, but there is a lot of material in this top level article to get a grasp of what you are dealing with.  We have other discussions on validation,  but this is a good place to start. 

[HolyGhost]

During the last rage my DIL had against me almost five years ago, she asked me ":)o you really think I'm crazy?". I responded that I did not think she had mental health issues (which was not true). There were things that were said during that conversation that were obviously effective because we got along okay for almost 5 years until the same accusations came up again.  If I decide to re-engage in a conversation with her and she asks me this question again, I'm not sure how I should respond.  I know so much more than I did then.  Should I reflect the question back onto her, deny that I think she has mental health issues, etc.  Any suggestions?

[Notwendy]

This is what could be called a double bind question, and an invitation to the drama triangle. There is no way to answer yes or no to it, all paths lead to the Karpman Triangle. Saying "yes" is inauthentic, and puts you in Rescuer position. Saying "no" is likely to trigger her into Victim position, you as Persecutor and your son will step in to Rescue her against you.

IMHO a dysfunctional relationship needs an outside Persecutor so the two can bond as Rescuer-Victim. This may not be a conscious thing, but it helps me to keep in mind that ( I think from observation) a person with BPD is seeking Victim position and seeks out someone to be in either Rescuer or Persecutor in their interaction. She may not be consciously setting you up. What I think is happening is she feels badly about herself- expresses it to you to manage the feelings. They will be managed either way- you will soothe her by saying "no" or trigger her by saying "yes" and the bad feelings will be projected on you.

She may also be feeling you out as to if you are on to her. I see this with BPD mother- she desperately does not want to be seen as having a mental illness ( as if anyone would). She is most comfortable with people who are not on to her. Once someone is, she is likely to paint them black and eliminate them from associating with her.

What you do want is to not be asked this question. An honest response would be to validate her feelings "It must be scary to wonder that" and then say- honestly- "I am not a therapist, and so can not answer this kind of question and even if I was, therapists can't do this with family. You are family and we love you".

Each time the question comes up- the same answer.

[HolyGhost]

This is very helpful.  It sounds like you have definitely developed a skill set of communication skills.  I am a nurse practitioner, but have no psychiatric experience.  So, I do feel she is smart enough to know that I understand some things more than the average lay person.  I've done a lot of reading, so I'm definitely more knowledgeable about BPD but don't necessarily have the skill sets to effectively interact.  I did some reading about the Karmpan triangle after your first post and found it very interesting.  It actually has helped me to understand my interactions between myself, DIL, and son.  Your latest post gives me more food for thought.  Thank you.

[Notwendy]

HolyGhost- since you are an NP, you are probably used to people asking you for medically related advice, but as you said, you are not a psychiatric practitioner and so I think it is reasonable to state that you feel this is not your place to determine.

I don't have a skill set from professional training, but from dealing with my BPD mother and the family dynamics. It took me a while to catch on to what was going on with her. She denies any mental health issues. But she does have a psychiatric history and I was able to put the pieces of that puzzle and her behavior together.

It did have professional advice- from counselors on how to deal with her. I think you will catch on to this.